Daniel's 70 weeks and the Messiah

[TomL]

Ever read Sir Robert Anderson's
The Coming Prince
?
in it he describes this idea.
he uses the 69 weeks/sevens, a 360 day year, and gets 173880 days, which brings him into the Sunday that Jesus enters the city of Jerusalem on a donkey.
So, in fact, if he died a few days later, on the passover, then he began his ministry in the 69th week, somewhere just after the middle of the week/sevens.

The problem is

Daniel 9:25–26 (NASB 2020) — 25 So you are to know and understand that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until Messiah the Prince, there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with streets and moat, even in times of distress. 26 Then after the sixty-two weeks, the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

69 weeks are determined until messiah the prince after that in the middle of the 70 week Messiah is cut off

You appear to have him cuttoff at the beginning of the 70 week. 69.5 weeks when introduced + ,5 weeks of ministry

 

[Diserner]

69 weeks are determined until messiah the prince after that in the middle of the 70 week Messiah is cut off

What??? It says after 69 not after 70.

Where in the world did you get "after 70 weeks' it's not there.

 

[Diserner]

• The Messiah dies "after" the sixty ninth week. What is after sixty nine? Seventy!

There is where you are making your mistake.

If I say, "after today I will die," does that mean 70 years from today?

Or does it mean "right after today is over"?

 

[Diserner]

• All six things of verse 24 happened in the seventieth week, which the seventy weeks were all about.

This is also is simply demonstrably untrue.

 

[TomL]

What??? It says after 69 not after 70.

Where in the world did you get "after 70 weeks' it's not there.

After 69 is 70

No mystery and I did not say after 70

 

[TomL]

This is also is simply demonstrably untrue.

Scripture states

Daniel 9:24 (ESV) — 24 “Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.

are you denying it?

 

[SteveB]

The problem is

Daniel 9:25–26 (NASB 2020) — 25 So you are to know and understand that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until Messiah the Prince, there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with streets and moat, even in times of distress. 26 Then after the sixty-two weeks, the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

69 weeks are determined until messiah the prince after that in the middle of the 70 week Messiah is cut off

You appear to have him cuttoff at the beginning of the 70 week. 69.5 weeks when introduced + ,5 weeks of ministry

Nope. He's cut off at the end of the 69th week.
His death is 4 days after the 173,880 days.
And I said shortly after the middle of the 69th week/sevens.


"then he began his ministry in the 69th week, somewhere just after the middle of the week/sevens."

The 70th week is commonly referred to as the tribulation period.

It starts when the prince of the people who is to come signs a treaty.

Dan 9:26-27 WEB 26 After the sixty-two weeks the Anointed One will be cut off, and will have nothing. The people of the prince who come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end will be with a flood, and war will be even to the end. Desolations are determined. 27 He will make a firm covenant with many for one week. In the middle of the week he will cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease. On the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate; and even to the decreed full end, wrath will be poured out on the desolate.”

 

[TomL]

Nope. He's cut off at the end of the 69th week.
His death is 4 days after the 173,880 days.
And I said shortly after the middle of the 69th week/sevens.


"then he began his ministry in the 69th week, somewhere just after the middle of the week/sevens."

The 70th week is commonly referred to as the tribulation period.

It starts when the prince of the people who is to come signs a treaty.

Dan 9:26-27 WEB 26 After the sixty-two weeks the Anointed One will be cut off, and will have nothing. The people of the prince who come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end will be with a flood, and war will be even to the end. Desolations are determined. 27 He will make a firm covenant with many for one week. In the middle of the week he will cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease. On the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate; and even to the decreed full end, wrath will be poured out on the desolate.”

After the 62 weeks would be in the 70 week not the 69th

Dan 9:26-27 WEB 26 After the sixty-two weeks the Anointed One will be cut off, and will have nothing.

Further, there is no tribulation listed in the allotted 70 weeks

Daniel 9:24 (NASB 2020) — 24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the wrongdoing, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

 

[Diserner]

It's written in chronological order, one thing happens after the next thing, it's not all jumbled and rearranged.

The Preterists here are literally REARRANGING the actual stated timeline of events to suit their presuppositions.

25 "Know therefore and understand,
[AFTER THAT HAPPENS THEN]
That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince,
[AFTER THAT HAPPENS THEN]
shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
[AFTER THAT HAPPENS THEN]
The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times.
[AFTER THAT HAPPENS THEN]
26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
[AFTER THAT HAPPENS THEN]
And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. [70 AD COMES IN HERE]
[AFTER THAT HAPPENS THEN]
The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
[AFTER THAT HAPPENS THEN]
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; [THE MESSIAH HAS BEEN CUT OFF—IT CANNOT BE HIM]
[AFTER THAT HAPPENS THEN]
But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
[AFTER THAT HAPPENS THEN]
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
[AFTER THAT HAPPENS THEN]
Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate." (Dan. 9:24-27 NKJ)

 

[Joe]

There is where you are making your mistake.

If I say, "after today I will die," does that mean 70 years from today?

Or does it mean "right after today is over"?

Seven hours are determined for dizerner to wash his car.

Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the command to wash the car unto dizerner arrives, there shall be two hours and four hours. After the four hours dizerner will stub his toe.

Question: How many hours passed from the command to wash the car until dizerner arrives?
Answer: 6 hours passed, 2+4=6

Question: In what hour did dizerner stub his toe?
Answer: The seventh hour. Six hours have passed already and seven comes "after" six.

God Bless

 

[TomL]

It's written in chronological order, one thing happens after the next thing, it's not all jumbled and rearranged.

The Preterists here are literally REARRANGING the actual stated timeline of events to suit their presuppositions.

25 "Know therefore and understand,
[AFTER THAT HAPPENS THEN]
That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince,
[AFTER THAT HAPPENS THEN]
shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
[AFTER THAT HAPPENS THEN]
The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times.
[AFTER THAT HAPPENS THEN]
26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
[AFTER THAT HAPPENS THEN]
And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. [70 AD COMES IN HERE]
[AFTER THAT HAPPENS THEN]
The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
[AFTER THAT HAPPENS THEN]
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; [THE MESSIAH HAS BEEN CUT OFF—IT CANNOT BE HIM]
[AFTER THAT HAPPENS THEN]
But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
[AFTER THAT HAPPENS THEN]
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
[AFTER THAT HAPPENS THEN]
Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate." (Dan. 9:24-27 NKJ)

It still seems you assume an advance in time starting at verse 27 rather than a recapitulation

Messiah is still cutoff in the 70 week after the 69

BTW neither the KJV, ESV, NASB, UASV, NIV, LSB begin verse 27 with the word then

 

[TomL]

Seven hours are determined for dizerner to wash his car.

Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the command to wash the car unto dizerner arrives, there shall be two hours and four hours. After the four hours dizerner will stub his toe.

Question: How many hours passed from the command to wash the car until dizerner arrives?
Answer: 6 hours passed, 2+4=6

Question: In what hour did dizerner stub his toe?
Answer: The seventh hour. Six hours have passed already and seven comes "after" six.

God Bless

good one

 

[SteveB]

After the 62 weeks would be in the 70 week not the 69th



Further, there is no tribulation listed in the allotted 70 weeks

Daniel 9:24 (NASB 2020) — 24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the wrongdoing, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

Dan 9:26-27 WEB 26 After the sixty-two weeks the Anointed One will be cut off, and will have nothing. The people of the prince who come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end will be with a flood, and war will be even to the end. Desolations are determined. 27 He will make a firm covenant with many for one week. In the middle of the week he will cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease. On the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate; and even to the decreed full end, wrath will be poured out on the desolate.”

Then you have nothing to worry about.

 

[TomL]

Dan 9:26-27 WEB 26 After the sixty-two weeks the Anointed One will be cut off, and will have nothing. The people of the prince who come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end will be with a flood, and war will be even to the end. Desolations are determined. 27 He will make a firm covenant with many for one week. In the middle of the week he will cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease. On the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate; and even to the decreed full end, wrath will be poured out on the desolate.”

Then you have nothing to worry about.

What me worry?

In any case, after the 62 weeks (+7) is not shortly after the middle of the 69th

SteveB
Nope. He's cut off at the end of the 69th week.
His death is 4 days after the 173,880 days.
And I said shortly after the middle of the 69th week/sevens.

It does not compute

it is 69 weeks until the messiah but all that verse 24 prophesies

Daniel 9:24 (ESV) — 24 “Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.

must be completed in the 70 week

Christ accomplished all those things through his death on the cross

BTW Christ declared himself the anointed one after his anointing by the Spirit


Luke 4:16–21 (ESV) — 16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And as was his custom, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and he stood up to read. 17 And the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written, 18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, 19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.” 20 And he rolled up the scroll and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. 21 And he began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”

Christ declared himself the anointed one that day

that is the 69 weeks unto the anointed one

 

[Diserner]

Question: In what hour did dizerner stub his toe?
Answer: The seventh hour. Six hours have passed already and seven comes "after" six.

It's so ingrained in your thinking to automatically "pad" the delay.

If I'm going to stub my toe after SIX hours, then at the very START of the seventh hour is when I stub it.

At the beginning, right after the six ends.

Not some indefinite time later (unless it is so specified).

 

[Diserner]

It still seems you assume an advance in time starting at verse 27 rather than a recapitulation

Recapitulation, lol, more like jumblification and inconsistency.

He is clearly describing a sequence of events, not a jumbled mess.

Messiah is still cutoff in the 70 week after the 69

His death is the marker that ends 69 and starts 70.

It could be the last day of 69 or the first of 70, either way.

BTW neither the KJV, ESV, NASB, UASV, NIV, LSB begin verse 27 with the word then

Doesn't affect the point.

Irrelevant.

 

[TomL]

Recapitulation, lol, more like jumblification and inconsistency.

He is clearly describing a sequence of events, not a jumbled mess.



His death is the marker that ends 69 and starts 70.

It could be the last day of 69 or the first of 70, either way.



Doesn't affect the point.

Irrelevant.

This refutes you

it is 69 weeks until the messiah but all that verse 24 prophesies

Daniel 9:24 (ESV) — 24 “Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.

must be completed in the 70 week

Christ accomplished all those things through his death on the cross

BTW Christ declared himself the anointed one after his anointing by the Spirit


Luke 4:16–21 (ESV) — 16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And as was his custom, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and he stood up to read. 17 And the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written, 18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, 19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.” 20 And he rolled up the scroll and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. 21 And he began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”

Christ declared himself the anointed one that day

that is the 69 weeks unto the anointed one

 

[Joe]

If I'm going to stub my toe after SIX hours, then at the very START of the seventh hour is when I stub it.

Not necessarily. You are making an assumption.

What does the prophecy state? It states "after" the four hours, not "immediately after".

We know the car gets washed within seven hours.
* It takes six hours to get to dizerner. We only have one hour left.
* It is after the sixth hour dizerner stubs his toe, and we know the car gets washed too all in the seventh hour.

You could have stubbed your toe with the last wipe of the drying cloth with one minute remaining and the prophecy would still be fulfilled.
* You arrived at the start of the seventh hour as prophesied
* You stubbed your toe after the sixth hour as prophesied
* The car gets washed within the seven hours as prophesied


You need to realize the prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27 has the Lord arriving at the beginning of the seventieth week. We know this because sixty nine weeks pass unto Him. We know the Lord did not immediately die after His baptism by John. We know he died 3.5 years later. This means in the middle of the seventieth week, He died for our sins, putting an end to them and the Levitical offerings because He is the true Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. And the prophecy of Him dying "after" the sixtieth week is fulfilled.

Hallelujah! Praise God for His Word is always true!


God Bless

 

[Grace ambassador]

op: Daniel's 70th week?
Precious friends, I'm not much of a prophecy 'expert' and no one seems to want to
answer my studious questions:

1) Where does the following 'one year' fit in Daniel's prophecy?:

"He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree​

planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit​

thereon, and found none. Then said he unto the dresser​

of his vineyard, Behold, these three years..."​

[ picturing Christ's earthly ministry to the 'lost sheep' of Israel? ]

"...I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down;​

why cumbereth it the ground?​

​

And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year"​

also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: And if it bear fruit,​

well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down."​

(Luke 13:6-9 cp Matthew 3:10)​

[ picturing Pentecost until "Israel blasphemed The Holy Ghost / fell / axe laid"?
Acts 7; Romans 11:11, 25, 32? ]

Is this "one more year":

a) calculated at the 'end' of the 69th week? = 7 years of the 70th week left?

b) calculated at the 'beginning' of the 70th week? = 6 years of the 70th left?

c) perchance does not apply at all to a timeline?

d) should I pray for @dizerner's "stubbed toe"? ♫ ↑

 

[TomL]

Nope. He's cut off at the end of the 69th week.
His death is 4 days after the 173,880 days.
And I said shortly after the middle of the 69th week/sevens.


"then he began his ministry in the 69th week, somewhere just after the middle of the week/sevens."

The 70th week is commonly referred to as the tribulation period.

It starts when the prince of the people who is to come signs a treaty.

Dan 9:26-27 WEB 26 After the sixty-two weeks the Anointed One will be cut off, and will have nothing. The people of the prince who come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end will be with a flood, and war will be even to the end. Desolations are determined. 27 He will make a firm covenant with many for one week. In the middle of the week he will cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease. On the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate; and even to the decreed full end, wrath will be poured out on the desolate.”

You have adopted an assumed chronology, This leads to great problems

Why then this difference of opinion? The explanation is that those who, in recent years, have turned their attention to this prophecy, have gone about the interpretation of it in the wrong way. They have pursued a method which cannot do other than lead to an erroneous conclusion. This should be understood by the reader(and we will seek to make it quite clear) before proceeding further.The right way of getting at the chronology of the prophecy is so simple and obvious that a child can readily comprehend it. All we need to do is to ascertain from the Word of God the two events specified by the angel, (1)the going forth of the “commandment” and (2) the manifestation of “Messiah the Prince.” Having definitely fixed these two events (which the Scriptures enable us to do with certainty) we know from the prophecy itself that from the one to the other is just 483 years. By this method we have no need of a system of chronology. But our expositors have proceeded in a very different way. First they have made choice of one or another ofthe various systems of chronology which have been compiled by various chronologists — as Ussher’s, Lloyd’s,Clinton’s or Marshall’s. Then, having assigned the correctness of the selected chronology, they have sought first for a decree of some Persian king, and second for some event in the lifetime of Christ, which would be as near as possible to 483 years apart, according to the selected chronology.It will be clear upon the briefest consideration that, according to this method, the interpretation of the prophecy is controlled by whatever chronology the expositor may have selected; for he needs must reject every interpretation which does not agree with his assumed chronology.Now, not only is this method of procedure fundamentally wrong in that it tries to make events of Bible history fit in with a man-made chronological scheme, but the fact is that every chronological System covering the period we have to do with (i.e., from the beginning of the Persian monarchy down to Christ) is largely a matter of guesswork. All those systems, without any exception, are based upon the “canon” of Ptolemy, that is to say,a list of supposed Persian kings, with the supposed length of the reign of each, which list was compiled by Ptolemy, a heathen astronomer and writer of the second century AD But Ptolemy does not even pretend to have had any facts as to the length of the Persian period (that is to say, from Darius and Cyrus down to Alexander the Great). Ptolemy estimates or guesses this period to have been 205 years long. And this is what has caused all the trouble and uncertainty; for every one who has attempted to construct a Bible chronology has based himself on Ptolemy’s estimate. In a word then, there is no chronology in existence of the period from Cyrus to Christ except in the Bible Phillip Mauro Seventy weeks and the great tribulation

Instead allow scripture to define the 69 weeks unto an anointed one - Jesus anointing by the Holy Spirit

that encompassed the 69 week. The beginning of his public ministry and the declaration of being the anointed one.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/daniels-70-weeks-and-the-messiah.1191/post-53969

3.5 years later in the 70th week he was cutoff