Christians are not under the OT Law

[Believe]

One needs to avoid mistaken applications of the Law while seeing its instructive and faith-building character.

Laws Giving Blessings to Those Who Keep Them

Example:
“At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year’s produce and store it in your towns, so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the foreigners, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied, and so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands” (Deut 14:28–29).

Of course, all of Israel’s laws were designed to be a means of blessing for the people of God (Lev 26:3–13). Some specifically mention, however, that keeping them will provide a blessing. The third-year tithe law of Deuteronomy 14:28–29 predicates blessing upon obedience. If the people do not care for the needy among them—those without “land” such as the Levites, orphans, and widows—God cannot give prosperity. The tithe belongs to him, and he has delegated how it is to be used. If this command is violated, it is a theft of God’s money. This law provides benefit for the needy, and benefit for those who benefit the needy. Such a law is neither restrictive nor punitive. It is instead a vehicle for good practice, and as such it is instructive to us as well as to ancient Israelites.


1. Do see the Old Testament law as God’s fully inspired Word for you.
Don’t see the Old Testament law as God’s direct command to you.

2. Do see the Old Testament law as the basis for the old covenant, and therefore for Israel’s history.
Don’t see the Old Testament law as binding on Christians in the new covenant except where specifically renewed.

3. Do see God’s justice, love, and high standards revealed in the Old Testament law.
Don’t forget to see that God’s mercy is made equal to the severity of the standards.

4. Do see the Old Testament law as a paradigm—providing examples for the full range of expected behavior.
Don’t see the Old Testament law as complete. It is not technically comprehensive.

5. Do remember that the essence of the law (the Ten Commandments and the two chief laws) is repeated in the prophets and renewed in the New Testament.
Don’t expect the Old Testament law to be cited frequently by the prophets or the New Testament.

6. Do see the Old Testament law as a generous gift to Israel, bringing much blessing when obeyed.
Don’t see the Old Testament law as a grouping of arbitrary, annoying regulations limiting people’s freedom.

Gordon D. Fee and Douglas K. Stuart, How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth

 

[Truther]

One needs to avoid mistaken applications of the Law while seeing its instructive and faith-building character.

Laws Giving Blessings to Those Who Keep Them

Example:
“At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year’s produce and store it in your towns, so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the foreigners, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied, and so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands” (Deut 14:28–29).

Of course, all of Israel’s laws were designed to be a means of blessing for the people of God (Lev 26:3–13). Some specifically mention, however, that keeping them will provide a blessing. The third-year tithe law of Deuteronomy 14:28–29 predicates blessing upon obedience. If the people do not care for the needy among them—those without “land” such as the Levites, orphans, and widows—God cannot give prosperity. The tithe belongs to him, and he has delegated how it is to be used. If this command is violated, it is a theft of God’s money. This law provides benefit for the needy, and benefit for those who benefit the needy. Such a law is neither restrictive nor punitive. It is instead a vehicle for good practice, and as such it is instructive to us as well as to ancient Israelites.


1. Do see the Old Testament law as God’s fully inspired Word for you.
Don’t see the Old Testament law as God’s direct command to you.

2. Do see the Old Testament law as the basis for the old covenant, and therefore for Israel’s history.
Don’t see the Old Testament law as binding on Christians in the new covenant except where specifically renewed.

3. Do see God’s justice, love, and high standards revealed in the Old Testament law.
Don’t forget to see that God’s mercy is made equal to the severity of the standards.

4. Do see the Old Testament law as a paradigm—providing examples for the full range of expected behavior.
Don’t see the Old Testament law as complete. It is not technically comprehensive.

5. Do remember that the essence of the law (the Ten Commandments and the two chief laws) is repeated in the prophets and renewed in the New Testament.
Don’t expect the Old Testament law to be cited frequently by the prophets or the New Testament.

6. Do see the Old Testament law as a generous gift to Israel, bringing much blessing when obeyed.
Don’t see the Old Testament law as a grouping of arbitrary, annoying regulations limiting people’s freedom.

Gordon D. Fee and Douglas K. Stuart, How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth

The Law was sent and multiplied to expose sin, not make folks holy.

The saints are not under the Law, but made holy by the Holy Ghost infilling.

Sinners are still condemned by the Law.

 

[Fellow Traveler]

Matthew tells us that Jesus was a Teacher, a Rabbi who upheld the true traditions of Israel. The following shows us the very essence of all that Jesus did and said: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill” Matthew 5:17

Jesus claimed for himself the authority to interpret the traditions of Israel’s past as contained in the “law and the prophets”. The Law specifically refers to the Torah, the expression of God’s will for God’s people that is found in the first five books of the Hebrew Scriptures. Jesus’ statement claimed authority to give the biblical Torah the rightful understanding and interpretation. This “fulfillment” meant that Jesus took a hard look at the traditions of Israel’s past and made a distinction between those traditions that truly were an expression of God’s will for God’s people and those that were not.

In the Sermon on the Mount, after his statement on fulfilling the Law, Jesus goes on to give his own understanding and interpretation of the laws through a sustained contrast: “You have heard that it was said … but I say to you …” Matthew 5:21–48

Jesus does not contradict the teaching of the Law. Instead, he calls on his followers to adhere to the Law in a much more intense way. He tells them that they are to abide by the Law more fully than even the Jewish religious leaders were doing: “For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven” Matthew 5:20

By the word “righteousness” Matthew embraces the concept of “moral action according to God’s will.” Jesus challenges his followers to ensure that the way they lead their lives must be according to God’s will found in the Torah, the biblical Law. We must be dedicated to doing God’s will more intensely than even the religious leaders of that day.

In Matthew 5:21–48, Jesus asks his followers to abide by the intention and the spirit, rather than giving a mere legalistic adherence to the Law.

Jesus’ fulfillment of the Law culminates in the simple command to love God and to love one’s neighbor as oneself. Matthew 22:34–40

 

[mikesw]

Matthew tells us that Jesus was a Teacher, a Rabbi who upheld the true traditions of Israel. The following shows us the very essence of all that Jesus did and said: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill” Matthew 5:17

Jesus claimed for himself the authority to interpret the traditions of Israel’s past as contained in the “law and the prophets”. The Law specifically refers to the Torah, the expression of God’s will for God’s people that is found in the first five books of the Hebrew Scriptures. Jesus’ statement claimed authority to give the biblical Torah the rightful understanding and interpretation. This “fulfillment” meant that Jesus took a hard look at the traditions of Israel’s past and made a distinction between those traditions that truly were an expression of God’s will for God’s people and those that were not.

In the Sermon on the Mount, after his statement on fulfilling the Law, Jesus goes on to give his own understanding and interpretation of the laws through a sustained contrast: “You have heard that it was said … but I say to you …” Matthew 5:21–48

Jesus does not contradict the teaching of the Law. Instead, he calls on his followers to adhere to the Law in a much more intense way. He tells them that they are to abide by the Law more fully than even the Jewish religious leaders were doing: “For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven” Matthew 5:20

By the word “righteousness” Matthew embraces the concept of “moral action according to God’s will.” Jesus challenges his followers to ensure that the way they lead their lives must be according to God’s will found in the Torah, the biblical Law. We must be dedicated to doing God’s will more intensely than even the religious leaders of that day.

In Matthew 5:21–48, Jesus asks his followers to abide by the intention and the spirit, rather than giving a mere legalistic adherence to the Law.

Jesus’ fulfillment of the Law culminates in the simple command to love God and to love one’s neighbor as oneself. Matthew 22:34–40

So your recommendation is that despite Jesus fulfilling the law, we should fulfill it again to satisfy the law's requirements on Israel? If someone paid your $10,000 debt to the mortgage company, are you going to subsequently write a $10,000 check to fulfill your debt to them? We could also reinstate animal sacrifices to pay our debt for sins. But somehow, I think Jesus' actions could somehow be sufficient for us. Maybe later we can discuss what Matt 5-7 is about.

 

[Fellow Traveler]

So your recommendation is that despite Jesus fulfilling the law, we should fulfill it again to satisfy the law's requirements on Israel? If someone paid your $10,000 debt to the mortgage company, are you going to subsequently write a $10,000 check to fulfill your debt to them? We could also reinstate animal sacrifices to pay our debt for sins. But somehow, I think Jesus' actions could somehow be sufficient for us. Maybe later we can discuss what Matt 5-7 is about.

Not at all, actually not even close.... no cigar.

 

[Believe]

The Law was sent and multiplied to expose sin, not make folks holy.

The saints are not under the Law, but made holy by the Holy Ghost infilling.

Sinners are still condemned by the Law.

And?

 

[TomL]

Matthew tells us that Jesus was a Teacher, a Rabbi who upheld the true traditions of Israel. The following shows us the very essence of all that Jesus did and said: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill” Matthew 5:17

Jesus claimed for himself the authority to interpret the traditions of Israel’s past as contained in the “law and the prophets”. The Law specifically refers to the Torah, the expression of God’s will for God’s people that is found in the first five books of the Hebrew Scriptures. Jesus’ statement claimed authority to give the biblical Torah the rightful understanding and interpretation. This “fulfillment” meant that Jesus took a hard look at the traditions of Israel’s past and made a distinction between those traditions that truly were an expression of God’s will for God’s people and those that were not.

In the Sermon on the Mount, after his statement on fulfilling the Law, Jesus goes on to give his own understanding and interpretation of the laws through a sustained contrast: “You have heard that it was said … but I say to you …” Matthew 5:21–48

Jesus does not contradict the teaching of the Law. Instead, he calls on his followers to adhere to the Law in a much more intense way. He tells them that they are to abide by the Law more fully than even the Jewish religious leaders were doing: “For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven” Matthew 5:20

By the word “righteousness” Matthew embraces the concept of “moral action according to God’s will.” Jesus challenges his followers to ensure that the way they lead their lives must be according to God’s will found in the Torah, the biblical Law. We must be dedicated to doing God’s will more intensely than even the religious leaders of that day.

In Matthew 5:21–48, Jesus asks his followers to abide by the intention and the spirit, rather than giving a mere legalistic adherence to the Law.

Jesus’ fulfillment of the Law culminates in the simple command to love God and to love one’s neighbor as oneself. Matthew 22:34–40

Matthew 22:37–40 (KJV 1900) — 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

James 2:8 (ESV) — 8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well.

 

[Truther]

Matthew tells us that Jesus was a Teacher, a Rabbi who upheld the true traditions of Israel. The following shows us the very essence of all that Jesus did and said: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill” Matthew 5:17

Jesus claimed for himself the authority to interpret the traditions of Israel’s past as contained in the “law and the prophets”. The Law specifically refers to the Torah, the expression of God’s will for God’s people that is found in the first five books of the Hebrew Scriptures. Jesus’ statement claimed authority to give the biblical Torah the rightful understanding and interpretation. This “fulfillment” meant that Jesus took a hard look at the traditions of Israel’s past and made a distinction between those traditions that truly were an expression of God’s will for God’s people and those that were not.

In the Sermon on the Mount, after his statement on fulfilling the Law, Jesus goes on to give his own understanding and interpretation of the laws through a sustained contrast: “You have heard that it was said … but I say to you …” Matthew 5:21–48

Jesus does not contradict the teaching of the Law. Instead, he calls on his followers to adhere to the Law in a much more intense way. He tells them that they are to abide by the Law more fully than even the Jewish religious leaders were doing: “For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven” Matthew 5:20

By the word “righteousness” Matthew embraces the concept of “moral action according to God’s will.” Jesus challenges his followers to ensure that the way they lead their lives must be according to God’s will found in the Torah, the biblical Law. We must be dedicated to doing God’s will more intensely than even the religious leaders of that day.

In Matthew 5:21–48, Jesus asks his followers to abide by the intention and the spirit, rather than giving a mere legalistic adherence to the Law.

Jesus’ fulfillment of the Law culminates in the simple command to love God and to love one’s neighbor as oneself. Matthew 22:34–40

Jesus was teaching Grace by telling folks the Law was virtually impossible to keep.

This is why it all changed to being born again via Acts 2:38 and following the Holy Ghost instead.

 

[Truther]

And?

The saints become saints by obeying Acts 2:38(obtaining remission of sins via baptism in the name of Jesus) and receiving the Holy Ghost to help them walk in the Spirit to remain free from the Law.

 

[Fool4Christ]

Jesus was teaching Grace by telling folks the Law was virtually impossible to keep.

This is why it all changed to being born again via Acts 2:38 and following the Holy Ghost instead.

Did not Christ say that the law would not be destroyed; that it would last as long as heaven and earth?
In Matthew’s record of what is commonly called, “The Sermon on the Mount,” these words of Jesus are recorded:

“Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets; I came not to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished” (Mt. 5:17-18).

It is frequently argued that if Jesus did not destroy the law, then it must still be binding.

 

[Truther]

Did not Christ say that the law would not be destroyed; that it would last as long as heaven and earth?
In Matthew’s record of what is commonly called, “The Sermon on the Mount,” these words of Jesus are recorded:


It is frequently argued that if Jesus did not destroy the law, then it must still be binding.

The Law IS NOT destroyed.

It is for ALL sinners.

Only the Acts 2:38 saints are freed from the Law.

 

[TomL]

The saints become saints by obeying Acts 2:38(obtaining remission of sins via baptism in the name of Jesus) and receiving the Holy Ghost to help them walk in the Spirit to remain free from the Law.

Acts 10:43 (KJV 1900) — 43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Romans 3:21–26 (KJV 1900) — 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

 

[Believe]

The Law IS NOT destroyed.

It is for ALL sinners.

Only the Acts 2:38 saints are freed from the Law.

Okay how's that work... as soon as a saved person sins he becomes under the law. And what about if a saint murder someone is that okay because he's not under the law?

If my sinful flesh was removed, put off, in Christ, then why do I still sin?

If the law is for all sinners then it includes people that are saved.

1 John 1:8 tells us, "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." Not one person in this earth walks free of sin.

But we have this assurance that there is now no condemnation in Christ Jesus.

1 John 1:9
"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness"

This means that if we openly admit that we have done wrong, God is true to his word and will forgive our sins and make us clean from all evil.

 

[Truther]

Acts 10:43 (KJV 1900) — 43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Romans 3:21–26 (KJV 1900) — 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

No Truther, please don't make me read the rest!!!....


44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

 

[Truther]

Okay how's that work... as soon as a saved person sins he becomes under the law. And what about if a saint murder someone is that okay because he's not under the law?

If my sinful flesh was removed, put off, in Christ, then why do I still sin?

If the law is for all sinners then it includes people that are saved.

1 John 1:8 tells us, "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." Not one person in this earth walks free of sin.

But we have this assurance that there is now no condemnation in Christ Jesus.

1 John 1:9
"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness"

This means that if we openly admit that we have done wrong, God is true to his word and will forgive our sins and make us clean from all evil.

No, as soon as a person is saved he or she is freed from the Law.

The unsaved remain under the Law.

All unsaved persons....


19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.


...everyone.

 

[mikesw]

One needs to avoid mistaken applications of the Law while seeing its instructive and faith-building character.

Laws Giving Blessings to Those Who Keep Them

Example:
“At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year’s produce and store it in your towns, so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the foreigners, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied, and so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands” (Deut 14:28–29).

Of course, all of Israel’s laws were designed to be a means of blessing for the people of God (Lev 26:3–13). Some specifically mention, however, that keeping them will provide a blessing. The third-year tithe law of Deuteronomy 14:28–29 predicates blessing upon obedience. If the people do not care for the needy among them—those without “land” such as the Levites, orphans, and widows—God cannot give prosperity. The tithe belongs to him, and he has delegated how it is to be used. If this command is violated, it is a theft of God’s money. This law provides benefit for the needy, and benefit for those who benefit the needy. Such a law is neither restrictive nor punitive. It is instead a vehicle for good practice, and as such it is instructive to us as well as to ancient Israelites.


1. Do see the Old Testament law as God’s fully inspired Word for you.
Don’t see the Old Testament law as God’s direct command to you.

2. Do see the Old Testament law as the basis for the old covenant, and therefore for Israel’s history.
Don’t see the Old Testament law as binding on Christians in the new covenant except where specifically renewed.

3. Do see God’s justice, love, and high standards revealed in the Old Testament law.
Don’t forget to see that God’s mercy is made equal to the severity of the standards.

4. Do see the Old Testament law as a paradigm—providing examples for the full range of expected behavior.
Don’t see the Old Testament law as complete. It is not technically comprehensive.

5. Do remember that the essence of the law (the Ten Commandments and the two chief laws) is repeated in the prophets and renewed in the New Testament.
Don’t expect the Old Testament law to be cited frequently by the prophets or the New Testament.

6. Do see the Old Testament law as a generous gift to Israel, bringing much blessing when obeyed.
Don’t see the Old Testament law as a grouping of arbitrary, annoying regulations limiting people’s freedom.

Gordon D. Fee and Douglas K. Stuart, How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth

I pretty well agree with the list given here. I think the matter of blessings or cursings had more to do with the acceptance or rejection of God but was mostly measured by the following or rejection of the sabbaths.

 

[TomL]

No Truther, please don't make me read the rest!!!....


44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

Does your bible contain only one verse that you ignore everything else

Acts 10:43 (KJV 1900) — 43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Romans 3:21–26 (KJV 1900) — 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Acts 5:31 (NASB 2020) — 31 He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Luke 24:47 (KJV 1900) — 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

1 John 1:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[Truther]

Tom, can you post Acts 2:38?

I dare you

 

[Fred]

48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

After they were already saved.

 

[Truther]

After they were already saved.

Then why were they commanded to be immediately baptized in the name of Jesus?