Christians are not under the OT Law

[mikesw]

Good stuff. That is pretty much what I would say about the OT law and what commandments we have now.

One pair of verses I like to use is:
Rom 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

As I sit at my computer in California, I am not one of those "under the law" of China. Neither are Christians under the law of Israel. Our situation is tad different in that we find God as creating the law and having wisdom for us. And I have to confess that I have not stoned anyone to death for committing adultery.

 

[Studyman]

Hebrews 8-10 show the law in null and void for believers.

No Civic,

Hebrews 7-10 all speak to the Levitical Priesthood that Abraham was not under, VS. the prophesied Priesthood after the order of Melchizedek, that Abraham was under. As Paul said, the Levitical Priesthood "LAW" was not "ADDED" until 430 years after Abraham obeyed God's Laws, Statutes and Commandments, and gave Tithes to Melchizedek.

Heb. 7: 4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils. 5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham: 6 But he (Melchizedek) whose descent "is not counted from them" (Levites) received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him "that had the promises."

Heb. 8: 1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; 2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, "and not man". 3 For every high priest (of God, including Melchizedek) is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: (To God) wherefore it is of necessity that this man (Jesus, the High Priest) have somewhat also to offer.

HEB. 9: 1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. 2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary. 3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; 4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant; 5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly. 6 Now "when these things" were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing "the service of God". 7 But into the second went the high priest alone "once every year", not without blood, which he offered for himself, "and for" the errors of the people:

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Heb. 10: 1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, "can never" with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats "should take away sins". 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I (Jesus), Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

It's right there for anyone and everyone to read, it's just that the deceiver has convinced so "many", through the religions of this world, that it wasn't the temporary Levitical Priesthood that was old and ready to vanish, that was Prophesied to be replaced by a New Priesthood "After the Order of Melchizedek". Instead, the deceiver teaches through this world's religions that it was God's Entire set of Laws, all of His Judgments, all of His Statutes, that became Obsolete.

Hebrews 7-10 clearly teaches that it was the Temporary Priesthood given to Israel "because of their Transgressions", that was "ADDED" until the True "unblemished sacrifice" should come. It was the Priesthood which became old and was ready to vanish away and was the Levitical Priesthood that was Prophesied to change. Not God's Laws, Judgments and statutes.

 

[civic]

No Civic,

Hebrews 7-10 all speak to the Levitical Priesthood that Abraham was not under, VS. the prophesied Priesthood after the order of Melchizedek, that Abraham was under. As Paul said, the Levitical Priesthood "LAW" was not "ADDED" until 430 years after Abraham obeyed God's Laws, Statutes and Commandments, and gave Tithes to Melchizedek.



It's right there for anyone and everyone to read, it's just that the deceiver has convinced so "many", through the religions of this world, that it wasn't the temporary Levitical Priesthood that was old and ready to vanish, that was Prophesied to be replaced by a New Priesthood "After the Order of Melchizedek". Instead, the deceiver teaches through this world's religions that it was God's Entire set of Laws, all of His Judgments, all of His Statutes, that became Obsolete.

Hebrews 7-10 clearly teaches that it was the Temporary Priesthood given to Israel "because of their Transgressions", that was "ADDED" until the True "unblemished sacrifice" should come. It was the Priesthood which became old and was ready to vanish away and was the Levitical Priesthood that was Prophesied to change. Not God's Laws, Judgments and statutes.

Nope it’s the old covenant that’s obsolete in Hebrews

 

[Studyman]

Nope it’s the old covenant that’s obsolete in Hebrews

Yes, but what you and the Pope preach is the old covenant, and the Covenant that God brought to an end, according to the Scriptures I posted, are two completely different things. At least according to the Scriptures.

You are free to promote any religious philosophy you wish, but it seems prudent to consider what the Bible actually teaches, concerning the covenant "God" Changed.

I posted His Inspired Words, it's OK if you don't believe them. A lot of men who profess to know God, don't.

 

[mikesw]

Yes, but what you and the Pope preach is the old covenant, and the Covenant that God brought to an end, according to the Scriptures I posted, are two completely different things. At least according to the Scriptures.

You are free to promote any religious philosophy you wish, but it seems prudent to consider what the Bible actually teaches, concerning the covenant "God" Changed.

I posted His Inspired Words, it's OK if you don't believe them. A lot of men who profess to know God, don't.

Are you Peterlag with a different user name? He uses the same claims. He likes to call people Catholic who share the accurate understanding of scripture. He also claims to use the inspired words except that he skips or misinterprets the ones against his view.

 

[civic]

Are you Peterlag with a different user name? He uses the same claims. He likes to call people Catholic who share the accurate understanding of scripture. He also claims to use the inspired words except that he skips or misinterprets the ones against his view.

lol

 

[Behold]

we are new creations in Christ to do good works.

Dont confuse "good works" with Moses Law.

Moses Law is a mirror that reflects us as unrighteous and unholy, and when we SEE this, we then turn to The Cross of Christ, and put our Faith in Christ, so that God can give us "the Gift of Righteousness".

The LAW condemns.

The Cross of Christ Forgives, and from this position of being forgiven, God is then able to give us..

"The Gift of Salvation"
"The Gift of Righteousness"
"The Gift of Eternal Life".

 

[Studyman]

Are you Peterlag with a different user name?

I don't know your brother "Peterlag" and have never discussed religions or scriptures with him.

He uses the same claims. He likes to call people Catholic who share the accurate understanding of scripture. He also claims to use the inspired words except that he skips or misinterprets the ones against his view.

If I did know your brother, I wouldn't talk about him in such a nasty and judgmental way behind his back. Perhaps your hatred of him, which would cause you to go behind his back and say such nasty things, is a fruit of darkness within your own heart?

Certainly, something to consider.

 

[Studyman]

Dont confuse "good works" with Moses Law.

Moses Law is a mirror that reflects us as unrighteous and unholy, and when we SEE this, we then turn to The Cross of Christ, and put our Faith in Christ, so that God can give us "the Gift of Righteousness".

The LAW condemns.

The Cross of Christ Forgives, and from this position of being forgiven, God is then able to give us..

"The Gift of Salvation"
"The Gift of Righteousness"
"The Gift of Eternal Life".

Moses, in my understanding, has never created even ONE Law. EVERY Law that Moses gave to the men of this world, was given to him from the same God who sent to us the Man Jesus. Why do you call them "Moses Law", knowing full well they are God's Law given to Moses? That's kinda dishonest, isn't it?

In turn, Jesus walked in All of God's Laws, AKA, "the "Good works" His Father before ordained that men should walk in them". This is called "Walking in the Spirit", according to Paul. How can you say that, what Paul calls, "The righteous Judgments of God", and in another place, "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good", are not righteousness?

 

[mikesw]

I don't know your brother "Peterlag" and have never discussed religions or scriptures with him.



If I did know your brother, I wouldn't talk about him in such a nasty and judgmental way behind his back. Perhaps your hatred of him, which would cause you to go behind his back and say such nasty things, is a fruit of darkness within your own heart?

Certainly, something to consider.

i'm sharing that your approach and his have some similarities. You are confirming that the nasty things you do are the same as his. The word "nasty" is yours anyhow. These are things I have pointed out to him too. So anyhow you have judged yourself on the matter after I just mentioned the similarity.

 

[Studyman]

i'm sharing that your approach and his have some similarities. You are confirming that the nasty things you do are the same as his. The word "nasty" is yours anyhow. These are things I have pointed out to him too. So anyhow you have judged yourself on the matter after I just mentioned the similarity.

Well of course, what else would you say. You are pure as the driven snow, and you are justified in all your behaviors, including badmouthing others behind their backs.

Pardon me, I forgot for a moment who you were.

 

[mikesw]

Well of course, what else would you say. You are pure as the driven snow, and you are justified in all your behaviors, including badmouthing others behind their backs.

Pardon me, I forgot for a moment who you were.

Excuse me if I have not seen how you differentiated you rejection of other views from Peterlags. Maybe you can explain how yours was different.

 

[Studyman]

Excuse me if I have not seen how you differentiated you rejection of other views from Peterlags. Maybe you can explain how yours was different.

Why? So you can badmouth me behind my back like you do others with whom you disagree?

If someone posts a scripture for examination and discussion, why not examine what is posted and discuss it? Just because you call Jesus Lord, Lord, doesn't mean your views are absolute and always right. Surely even you must understand this undeniable Biblical Truth. Instead of badmouthing others behind their back for having a different understanding, why not have a discussion regarding what the Scriptures actually say?

Unless you are here to promote Calvinism, or Arminianism or Catholicism or some other religious sect or business of this world God placed us in. In which case, only your religion is promoted, not seeking Biblical Truth. You could start by admitting that badmouthing others behind their back, just because they may understand the Scriptures differently, is "Wrong"!

And then go from there. If I have posted something you don't believe aligns with Scriptures, point it out to me, let's have an honest, impassioned unbiased adult discussion about what is actually written.

If all you are here to do is promote a religion which badmouths other behind their back for nothing but a disagreement, take your religion elsewhere, I'm not interested.

 

[mikesw]

Why? So you can badmouth me behind my back like you do others with whom you disagree?

If someone posts a scripture for examination and discussion, why not examine what is posted and discuss it? Just because you call Jesus Lord, Lord, doesn't mean your views are absolute and always right. Surely even you must understand this undeniable Biblical Truth. Instead of badmouthing others behind their back for having a different understanding, why not have a discussion regarding what the Scriptures actually say?

Unless you are here to promote Calvinism, or Arminianism or Catholicism or some other religious sect or business of this world God placed us in. In which case, only your religion is promoted, not seeking Biblical Truth. You could start by admitting that badmouthing others behind their back, just because they may understand the Scriptures differently, is "Wrong"!

And then go from there. If I have posted something you don't believe aligns with Scriptures, point it out to me, let's have an honest, impassioned unbiased adult discussion about what is actually written.

If all you are here to do is promote a religion which badmouths other behind their back for nothing but a disagreement, take your religion elsewhere, I'm not interested.

Again. I am noting your tactic you used that was the same as Peterlag. Now you repeat it but now add a view different Christian divisions. You have strayed from scriptures just to say that your opponents in trying to correct your ideas of scripture are somehow only guided by one of those divisions, as if you know what beliefs like mine are from. Maybe you can take a chill pill and get back on your arguments.

 

[Soyeong]

Hebrews 8-10 show the law in null and void for believers.

In Hebrews 8:10, the New Covenant involves God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts, which is the opposite of it being null and void for believers.

 

[Soyeong]

Dont confuse "good works" with Moses Law.

How else do you think that the Israelites were taught how to do good works if not through the Mosaic Law?

In 2 Timothy 3:15-17, Paul referred to Scripture that Timothy had available since childhood, which could only refer to the books of the OT because the none of the books of the NT had been written at the time of his childhood. So it refers to the OT as being profitable for teaching, correction, reproof, and training in righteousness that the man of God might be complete, thoroughly equipped to do every good work, which is all in regard to our conduct, and the code of conduct in the OT is the Mosaic Law, so that is what Paul was primarily referring to.

Moses Law is a mirror that reflects us as unrighteous and unholy

That is what it does for the people to refuse to submit to it.

, and when we SEE this, we then turn to The Cross of Christ, and put our Faith in Christ, so that God can give us "the Gift of Righteousness".

The only way to attain a character trait is through faith and what it means for someone to attain a character trait is the become a doer of that trait. For example, there is no amount of courageous works that someone is required to have done first in order to attain courageousness as the result, but rather the only to become courageous is through faith, but it would be contradictory for someone to become courageous apart from becoming a doer of courageous works, and the same is true for becoming righteous, so the gift of righteousness means the gift of becoming a doer of righteous works in obedience to the Mosaic Law. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law is the way to believe in what Christ accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20).

The LAW condemns.

The Cross of Christ Forgives, and from this position of being forgiven, God is then able to give us..

"The Gift of Salvation"
"The Gift of Righteousness"
"The Gift of Eternal Life".

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and it is by the Mosaic Law that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so while we do not earn our salvation as the result of our obedience to it, Jesus leading us to be a doer of the Mosaic Law is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it. Likewise, in Romans 6:19-23, we are no longer to present ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin, but are now to present ourselves to God as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, so being a doer of the Mosaic Law is God's gift of eternal life, which is also why Jesus said that the way to inherit eternal life is by being it (Luke 10:25-28).

 

[Soyeong]

Amen

The key to understanding the relationship between the Christian and the Law is knowing that the Old Testament law was given to the nation of Israel, not to Christians. Some of the laws were to reveal to the Israelites how to obey and please God (the Ten Commandments, for example). Some of the laws were to show the Israelites how to worship God and atone for sin (the sacrificial system). Some of the laws were intended to make the Israelites distinct from other nations (the food and clothing rules). None of the Old Testament law is binding on Christians today. When Jesus died on the cross, He put an end to the Old Testament law

In Matthew 4:15-23, Christ began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom. Christ also set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6). So Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example and being a Christian is about being a follower of what Christ taught, not about refusing to follow him. Moreover, in Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to free us from the Mosaic Law, but in order to free us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law is the way to believe in what Jesus spent his ministry teaching and in what he accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20) while returning to the lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from is the way to reject everything that he accomplished.

This is in accordance with Jesus being sent in fulfillment of the promise to bless us by turning us from our wickedness (Acts 3:25-26), which is the opposite a putting an end the the Mosaic Law so that we can be free to do what it reveals to be wickedness. The Mosaic Law was given to Israel in order to equip them to be a light and a blessing to the nations by turning the nations from their wickedness and teaching them to obey it in accordance with inheriting the promise through faith and with spreading the Gospel of the Kingdom.

(Romans 10:4;

In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart form him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to teaching us how to know God and Jesus, which is eternal life (John 17:3).

In Romans 9:30-10:4 the Israelites failed to attain righteousness because they misunderstood the goal of the law by pursing it as through righteousness were earn as the result of their obedience in order to establish their own instead of pursuing it as through righteousness were by faith in Christ, for knowing Christ is the goal of law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. In Romans 10:5-10, it refers to Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to proclaiming that the Mosaic Law is not too difficult for us to obey, that obedience to it brings life, in regard to what we are agreeing to obey by confessing that Jesus is Lord, and in regard to the way to believe that God raised him from the dead. So nothing in the passage has anything to do with Christ ending God's law, but just the opposite, and it doesn't even make sense to think that God's word made flesh ended God's word.

Galatians 3:23–25;

God's law leads us to Christ because it teaches us how to know him, but does not lead us to him so that we can reject everything he taught and is and go back to our wickedness.

Ephesians 2:15).

In Ephesians 2:12-19, Gentiles were at one time separated from Christ, alienated from Israel and the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world, all of which is in accordance with Gentiles at one time not being doers of the Mosaic Law, but through faith in Christ all of that is no longer true in that Gentiles are no longer strangers of aliens, but are fellow citizens of Israel along with the saints in the household of God, all of which is in accordance with Gentiles becoming doers of the Mosaic Law. The Greek word "dogma" is not used by the Bible to refer to the Mosaic Law, so you are not correctly identifying what was being broken down.

In place of the Old Testament law, Christians are under the law of Christ (Galatians 6:2), which is to “love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind…and to love your neighbor as yourself” (Matthew 22:37-39). If we obey those two commands, we will be fulfilling all that Christ requires of us: “All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments” (Matthew 22:40). Now, this does not mean the Old Testament law is irrelevant today. Many of the commands in the Old Testament law fall into the categories of “loving God” and “loving your neighbor.” The Old Testament law can be a good guidepost for knowing how to love God and knowing what goes into loving your neighbor. At the same time, to say that the Old Testament law applies to Christians today is incorrect. The Old Testament law is a unit (James 2:10). Either all of it applies, or none of it applies. If Christ fulfilled some of it, such as the sacrificial system, He fulfilled all of it.

The position that we should obey the greatest two commandments is also the position that we should obey all of the commandments that hang on them. In Matthew 5:17, Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law in contrast with saying that he came not to abolish it and he warned against replacing the least part of it, so you should not interpret fulfilling the law to refer to relaxing the least part of it. Rather, "to fulfill the law" means "to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be" (NAS Greek Lexicon: pleroo), so Jesus fulfilled the law by spending his ministry teaching us how to correctly obey it by word and by example. In Galatians 6:2, fulfilling bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, so you should interpret that in the same way as you interpret fulfilling the Law of Moses.

“This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome” (1 John 5:3). The Ten Commandments were essentially a summary of the entire Old Testament law. Nine of the Ten Commandments are clearly repeated in the New Testament (all except the command to observe the Sabbath day). Obviously, if we are loving God, we will not be worshiping false gods or bowing down before idols. If we are loving our neighbors, we will not be murdering them, lying to them, committing adultery against them, or coveting what belongs to them.

In 1 John 5:3, it does not specify that it is speaking about just ten of God's commandments, but rather everything that God has commanded was specifically commanded to teach us how to love Him. Jesus would have still taught full obedience to the Mosaic Law by example even if no commandments had been repeated in the NT and we are called to follow his example. And obviously if we are loving God and our neighbor, then we won't commit rape, favoritism, kidnapping, and so forth for the rest of the Mosaic Law.

The purpose of the Old Testament law is to convict people of our inability to keep the law

Nowhere does the Bible say that, but rather that is denying what Romans 10:5-8 says is the word of faith that we proclaim. Moreover, there are many example of people who did keep the Mosaic Law, such as those in Joshua 22:1-3, Luke 1:5-6, Revelation 14:12, and Revelation 22:14.

and point us to our need for Jesus Christ as Savior (Romans 7:7-9; Galatians 3:24).

The Mosaic Law points us to Christ because it is God's instructions for how to know Him. Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and it is by the Mosaic Law that we have knowledge of wha sin is (Romans 3:20), so Jesus teaching us to be a doer of the Mosaic Law is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of the Mosaic Law.

The Old Testament law was never intended by God to be the universal law for all people for all of time. We are to love God and love our neighbors.

It is contradictory to want to follow God's command to love, but not His other commands for how to do that.

 

[civic]

It is contradictory to want to follow God's command to love, but not His other commands for how to do that.

I never said otherwise

 

[Soyeong]

I never said otherwise

Everything commanded in the Mosaic Law is in regard to how to love God and our neighbor, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 22:36-40 that those are the greatest two commandments and that all of the other commandments hang on them, so the position that we should obey the greatest two commandments is also the position that we should obey the commands that hang on them. For example, if we love God and our neighbor, then we won't commit adultery, theft, idolatry, murder, kidnapping, favoritism, rape, and so forth for the rest of the Mosaic Law.