Christians are not under the OT Law
- Thread starter civic
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Christians are commanded to do many things after salvation.
Truther
Well-known member
What if they don’t obey these commands? Will they be lost?
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Ti 3:15–17.
Although I agree with civic that non-Hebrews (Gentiles) were never under the Mosaic Law for the Mosaic Law was given to the Hebrews/Jews whom God delivered from the bondage of the Egyptians as prophesied to Abraham.
I also agree that Saul's personal letter to Timothy is written to him who was a non-Hebrew (Gentile), however, Saul makes the statement to Timothy that the Hebrew Scripture which is in view here in verse 16 ("all Scripture...") makes the case that a Gentile Christian whom we all take Timothy was Gentile is still coming across that Gentiles are bound in their Christian new life to obedience to the Hebrew Scripture unless we want to take Timothy to actually be (Hellenized) Hebrew/Jew and as a Jew he is still under the Law as a Christ-follower, which all Jewish Christians are after being born again and converted to a spiritual existence of which the Law is itself a spiritual entity for Jews that became born again continued to be observant and obedient to the Law as it reveals here:
20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: Acts 21:20.
Jews that became born again continued to be obedient to their Mosaic Law after they came to Christ. To them the arrival of their Promised Messiah or "Prophet like unto me (Moses)" (Deut. 18:15, 18) was the completion of their Judaism as Christ/Messiah was fulfillment of their Law and prophecies. Even Saul continued to be obedient to the Law as a born-again Christian. Below it was suggested that Saul join himself to these four men who make a (Nazarene) vow by shaving their heads for a particular purpose and Saul did join them in their vow and it was also mentioned that Saul was indeed STILL an obedient Jew who kept the Law as a born-again Christian. All born-again Jews continued to be obedient to their Law. It was a natural transition.
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. Acts 21:24.
The children of Israel were given the Law by God form they would know how to worship God and also live among themselves under God's Law which instructed and commanded them in the ways God wanted them to live and breathe and have their being as God's people. The Ceremonial Law instructed the children of Israel in how they were to worship God. The Moral Law (Ten Commandments) first four commands teach how to worship and treat God and the other six instructed the children of Israel in how they were to act and behave towards each other. The Social Law gave instruction in other matters concerning how the twelve tribes were to behave towards each other.
And I believe that the Mosaic Law given to the children of Israel are binding up both Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians who become born again as what Saul says in 2 Timothy 3:16-17 indicates.
Looking back upon 1900 years of theological history of the Bible we learn that the Law could not ever save us by anyone being obedient to the Law for the Law's purpose was to show the high standards of men before God in order to stand before God blameless and without sin. The letter of the Law kills. The Law is spiritual. It killed because men were natural flesh and the Law's effect upon all flesh killed all flesh due to this fact. But once a person becomes born again, they become spiritually alive and the Law's effect upon flesh could not touch them. But Saul instructs born again Christians that we receive instruction before God in how we are to order our lives and that is to be obedient to the Law of God. As spiritual people the spiritual effect upon us is NOW to be valued because it instructs us in righteousness and in how we are to live our lives, that is, to be obedient to God's Law no matter if one is Hebrew/Jewish or Gentile. It is now used for instruction in righteousness (righteous living.) And that is what Saul says to Timothy specifically and to every born-again Christian - Jew and Gentile - in general.
And that should be the bottom line in this discussion and kill any dissent.
In Acts 21:20 I ask WHY were these thousands of Jews who became born again were zealous of the Law? Why? If the Gentile teaching in the body of believers is that the Law was made "abolished" or "obsolete" why were Jewish Christians after being born again become "zealous of the Law"? The Holy Spirit didn't stop them. There is nothing in Scripture that says they were wrong to continue to practice and being obedient to their Law. Why were they zealous of the Law? Jew or Gentile - didn't you become more obedient to human laws after you became Christian?
I know the answer.
Do you?
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Ti 3:15–17.
Although I agree with civic that non-Hebrews (Gentiles) were never under the Mosaic Law for the Mosaic Law was given to the Hebrews/Jews whom God delivered from the bondage of the Egyptians as prophesied to Abraham.
I also agree that Saul's personal letter to Timothy is written to him who was a non-Hebrew (Gentile), however, Saul makes the statement to Timothy that the Hebrew Scripture which is in view here in verse 16 ("all Scripture...") makes the case that a Gentile Christian whom we all take Timothy was Gentile is still coming across that Gentiles are bound in their Christian new life to obedience to the Hebrew Scripture unless we want to take Timothy to actually be (Hellenized) Hebrew/Jew and as a Jew he is still under the Law as a Christ-follower, which all Jewish Christians are after being born again and converted to a spiritual existence of which the Law is itself a spiritual entity for Jews that became born again continued to be observant and obedient to the Law as it reveals here:
20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: Acts 21:20.
Jews that became born again continued to be obedient to their Mosaic Law after they came to Christ. To them the arrival of their Promised Messiah or "Prophet like unto me (Moses)" (Deut. 18:15, 18) was the completion of their Judaism as Christ/Messiah was fulfillment of their Law and prophecies. Even Saul continued to be obedient to the Law as a born-again Christian. Below it was suggested that Saul join himself to these four men who make a (Nazarene) vow by shaving their heads for a particular purpose and Saul did join them in their vow and it was also mentioned that Saul was indeed STILL an obedient Jew who kept the Law as a born-again Christian. All born-again Jews continued to be obedient to their Law. It was a natural transition.
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. Acts 21:24.
The children of Israel were given the Law by God form they would know how to worship God and also live among themselves under God's Law which instructed and commanded them in the ways God wanted them to live and breathe and have their being as God's people. The Ceremonial Law instructed the children of Israel in how they were to worship God. The Moral Law (Ten Commandments) first four commands teach how to worship and treat God and the other six instructed the children of Israel in how they were to act and behave towards each other. The Social Law gave instruction in other matters concerning how the twelve tribes were to behave towards each other.
And I believe that the Mosaic Law given to the children of Israel are binding up both Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians who become born again as what Saul says in 2 Timothy 3:16-17 indicates.
Looking back upon 1900 years of theological history of the Bible we learn that the Law could not ever save us by anyone being obedient to the Law for the Law's purpose was to show the high standards of men before God in order to stand before God blameless and without sin. The letter of the Law kills. The Law is spiritual. It killed because men were natural flesh and the Law's effect upon all flesh killed all flesh due to this fact. But once a person becomes born again, they become spiritually alive and the Law's effect upon flesh could not touch them. But Saul instructs born again Christians that we receive instruction before God in how we are to order our lives and that is to be obedient to the Law of God. As spiritual people the spiritual effect upon us is NOW to be valued because it instructs us in righteousness and in how we are to live our lives, that is, to be obedient to God's Law no matter if one is Hebrew/Jewish or Gentile. It is now used for instruction in righteousness (righteous living.) And that is what Saul says to Timothy specifically and to every born-again Christian - Jew and Gentile - in general.
And that should be the bottom line in this discussion and kill any dissent.
In Acts 21:20 I ask WHY were these thousands of Jews who became born again were zealous of the Law? Why? If the Gentile teaching in the body of believers is that the Law was made "abolished" or "obsolete" why were Jewish Christians after being born again become "zealous of the Law"? The Holy Spirit didn't stop them. There is nothing in Scripture that says they were wrong to continue to practice and being obedient to their Law. Why were they zealous of the Law? Jew or Gentile - didn't you become more obedient to human laws after you became Christian?
I know the answer.
Do you?
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Truther
Well-known member
The Gentiles have always been under the Law from birth....
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
We don't have a built in morality aside from the Law.
Only the Acts 2;38 obeying saints are made free from the Law.
They follow the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ.
They are led of the Spirit...
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
We don't have a built in morality aside from the Law.
Only the Acts 2;38 obeying saints are made free from the Law.
They follow the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ.
They are led of the Spirit...
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
dwight92070
Well-known member
I agree with one caveat. The purpose of the law was to show Israel, to whom it was given, what sin was - that is, to define sin. Paul said that himself in the verse you referred to - Romans 7:7 "I would not have come to know sin except through the law; for I would not have known about coveting if the law had not said, 'You shall not covet'".
Galatians 3:19 says essentially the same thing: "... the Law was added because of (or for the sake of defining) transgressions".
So the law was not given to the Jews to show them that they were unable to keep it. On the contrary, the scripture gives us examples of persons who kept it blamelessly. Zacharias and Elizabeth, John the Baptist's parents "walked blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord". Luke 1:5-6
Even Paul said about himself in Phil. 1:6 " ... as to the righteousness which is in the law, found blameless."
Remember, keeping the Law blamelessly did not mean that a person never sinned. Rather it meant that whenever he did sin, he would make the appropriate animal sacrifice to cover that sin - or meet whatever requirement God said to cover that sin. So, there's no doubt that many godly people kept the Law meticulously, but Christ's death on the cross was the payment necessary for sinner's to be forgiven and cleansed through faith, both before His crucifixion and after. That's how Abraham was credited as righteous, David was credited as righteous - Psalm 32:1. That's how all the godly men in the Old Testament, were credited as righteous - by grace through faith - the same as today.
God would be quite unreasonable to command Israel to obey His Law, if He knew that they were unable to. The Law, however, was powerless in taking away sins. Only Jesus can do that.
By the way, this is also how we are able to keep Jesus' commandments, by grace through faith. When we sin, we go to 1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all righteousness."
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civic
Well-known member
Are what you are meaning to say it what Paul summarized below in Ephesians 2:8-10, specifically verse 10 and Gods purpose ?
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
While Paul denied in Ephesians 2:8-10 that we can earn our salvation as the result of our works lest anyone should boast, he did not speak against the position that getting to experience being a doer of good works is intrinsically part of God's gift of salvation, but rather he affirmed that we are new creations in Christ to do good works.
civic
Well-known member
Agreed
dwight92070
Well-known member
I agree with civic's OP, that we are not under the Law at all. As Gentiles, we never were, nor are we now. As civic said (and the Bible says) the Law was given ONLY to Jews. And all Jewish believers who lived after Jesus was crucified, including Jewish believers today are also NOT under the Mosaic Law. In fact most non-Christian Jews probably do not realize this today, but they too are NOT under the Mosaic Law. Why? Because that Law is no longer in effect - it became obsolete as Hebrews says, when Christ was crucified.
Also many Christians do not realize that the New Covenant also was given ONLY to the Jews. We see that in Jeremiah 31:31-34. But the good news is that Jesus, through His death and resurrection, not only saved Jewish believers, but also opened the door for Gentile believers to be "grafted in among them (i.e. among Jewish believers) and BECAME PARTAKER WITH THEM of the rich root of the olive tree" Romans 11:17, which is the remnant of Israel (a term used many times in the Old Testament to designate Jews who truly loved and served God vs. those Jews who did not).
So again, GOOD NEWS, not only for believing Jews, but now also for us who are believing Gentiles, which I am. I have become a partaker with the remnant of the rich root of the olive tree, which means I have been grafted into the New Covenant and ALL the blessings of Abraham through Jesus Christ! (Again, look at Romans 11:17) So also have ALL believing Gentiles! Praise God and His Son our Lord Jesus Christ! He broke down the barrier of the dividing wall between Jews and Gentiles - we are one body in Him! And He commands us to love one another, which by His grace, we are able to do!
All believers today, Jew and Gentile, together are the remnant of Israel. We are also called, as Paul puts it, "the Israel of God". Galatians 6:16
We are called by many different names: the people of God, the body of Christ, the bride of Christ, disciples of Christ, the remnant of Israel, the Israel of God, Christians, followers of Christ, believers, saints, holy ones, Jews inwardly - Romans 2:29 ("But he is a Jew who is one inwardly"), and I'm sure there are more names that I may have missed. Thank God and our Lord Jesus for His mercy and kindness!
All of us who believe in Jesus, are now under the law of Christ, which is also called the New Covenant, first mentioned in Jeremiah 31:31-34. In verses 31-32 the Lord God says that this new covenant " ... is NOT like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them ... out of the land of Egypt."
In verse 34, He continues "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it;" Is this the Law of Moses? NO, He just said that this new covenant is NOT LIKE the Mosaic law. So what law did He put within us? What law did He write on our heart? The law of Christ, which was not revealed until Christ came. We have the law of Christ written on our hearts!
1 Cor. 9:21 " ... though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ ..."
Gal. 6:2 "Bear one another's burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ."
James 1:25 "But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty ..."
James 2:12 "So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty."
Also many Christians do not realize that the New Covenant also was given ONLY to the Jews. We see that in Jeremiah 31:31-34. But the good news is that Jesus, through His death and resurrection, not only saved Jewish believers, but also opened the door for Gentile believers to be "grafted in among them (i.e. among Jewish believers) and BECAME PARTAKER WITH THEM of the rich root of the olive tree" Romans 11:17, which is the remnant of Israel (a term used many times in the Old Testament to designate Jews who truly loved and served God vs. those Jews who did not).
So again, GOOD NEWS, not only for believing Jews, but now also for us who are believing Gentiles, which I am. I have become a partaker with the remnant of the rich root of the olive tree, which means I have been grafted into the New Covenant and ALL the blessings of Abraham through Jesus Christ! (Again, look at Romans 11:17) So also have ALL believing Gentiles! Praise God and His Son our Lord Jesus Christ! He broke down the barrier of the dividing wall between Jews and Gentiles - we are one body in Him! And He commands us to love one another, which by His grace, we are able to do!
All believers today, Jew and Gentile, together are the remnant of Israel. We are also called, as Paul puts it, "the Israel of God". Galatians 6:16
We are called by many different names: the people of God, the body of Christ, the bride of Christ, disciples of Christ, the remnant of Israel, the Israel of God, Christians, followers of Christ, believers, saints, holy ones, Jews inwardly - Romans 2:29 ("But he is a Jew who is one inwardly"), and I'm sure there are more names that I may have missed. Thank God and our Lord Jesus for His mercy and kindness!
All of us who believe in Jesus, are now under the law of Christ, which is also called the New Covenant, first mentioned in Jeremiah 31:31-34. In verses 31-32 the Lord God says that this new covenant " ... is NOT like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them ... out of the land of Egypt."
In verse 34, He continues "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it;" Is this the Law of Moses? NO, He just said that this new covenant is NOT LIKE the Mosaic law. So what law did He put within us? What law did He write on our heart? The law of Christ, which was not revealed until Christ came. We have the law of Christ written on our hearts!
1 Cor. 9:21 " ... though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ ..."
Gal. 6:2 "Bear one another's burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ."
James 1:25 "But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty ..."
James 2:12 "So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty."
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That is what the Catholic teaches and many of her daughters have also adopted her philosophies. But let's hear what God Himself says, as HE is the One True God who inspired the Scriptures.
Ex. 12: 48 And when a stranger (Non-Jew) shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. 49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.
So God's Law was given "TO" the Nation of Israel, but God's Law was made "For" anyone who would join themselves to Him.
Lev. 19: 34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
So again, this same God is confirming that God's LAW was Given "TO" Israel, but God's LAW was "FOR" anyone who would join themselves to Him.
Is. 56: 1 Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
2 Blessed is the man (Any man) that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.
3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
It is not taught in modern religions who profess to know God, nevertheless, it is Biblically True just the same. God gave His Laws "TO" Abraham and Abraham's Children in Egypt. But His LAWS are "FOR" anyone who would turn himself unto the Lord.
This was Paul's teaching for both Jew and Gentile, based on his own words.
Acts 26: 19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
This is simply not true my friend, according to Scriptures. You might be able to take a verse here and there and bend them to fit the narrative. But Paul teaches no such thing if a man takes all his words into consideration.
1 Cor. 9: 9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? 10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
Now men may have a vail over their eyes, as it is written, when Moses is read, and therefore may not understand the instruction. Nevertheless, Paul says it is written specifically for the Body of Christ, for "their sakes no doubt".
And again;
1 Cor. 10: 1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 6 Now these things were our (Body of Christ) examples, to the intent we (Body of Christ) should not lust after evil things, (Disobedience to God's Laws) as they also lusted.
11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for "our" admonition, upon whom the "ends of the world" are come.
This is us Civic, is it not? The entire OT was written specifically for you and I in this world at this time. Is this not what Paul is saying here?
12 Wherefore, (because of these undeniable truths) let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
And again.
Rom. 6: 16 "Know ye not", that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin (Transgression of God's Law) unto death, (Still, even after "many" say the OT Law was destroyed by Jesus) or of obedience unto righteousness?
I know I am bucking the religious philosophy and traditions of this world's religions, but Jesus didn't come to destroy His Father's Law. He said so Himself. Who then shall I believe? the Jesus "of the Bible" or the religious philosophies of men?
Deut 6: 4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: 5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Lev. 19: 17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. 18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
The Jesus "of the bible" was simply quoting the Words of His father that HE Himself said HE came to deliver.
John 17: 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
And Jesus knew there would be religions who would falsely preach that Jesus came to destroy the Law and the Prophets. But Jesus saw this coming, and prepared those who are seeking His Father's Kingdom and His Father's Righteousness, telling them not to even "THINK" HE came to do what you attribute to Him.
Matt. 5: 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
He has still to fulfill the Prophesy of his Return and all that comes with Him. So you can perhaps see why I cannot adopt the philosophy you are promoting here.
How does one Love God with all their heart? In your religion, did Jesus Love His father with all His Heart? And did He always do those things that please Him? Would this Love and Honor towards God not include humbling ourselves in obedience to Him, like Jesus did?
This is your philosophy, not wrought in God. God Prophesied of a New Priest, and a New Priesthood in the New covenant. He said 2 things would change.
#1. The manner in which God's Laws are administered.
#2. The manner in which sins are forgiven.
You can read it for yourself, but be careful not to inject your own words or biases into the Scriptures.
I get that this is popular ancient catholic doctrine and has been adopted and promoted by this world's religious businesses and sects and has created a religious industry that generates billions of dollars in revenue a year for these religious businesses. And the merchants of the world have become rich from their manmade high days and religious traditions and manmade shrines of worship. But when a man reads what is actually written, this philosophy is proven to be wrought in the imaginations of men's heart, and not wrought in God, or the Words HE had written for our admonition.
God saw this great worldly religious system coming, and warned about those who promote them.
Jer. 23: 16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD. 17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.
And the Christ warns of this as well in the Holy scriptures.
Matt. 7: 22 "Many" will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: "depart from me", ye that work iniquity.
And again from the same Christ;
Rev. 18: 3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered "her iniquities".
I know you are convinced that;
But there is nowhere in the Bible where this is taught. It is a popular religious philosophy of this world that God is not all knowing, and that His Laws were a Yoke of Bondage impossible for men to obey and that HIS Son had to come and straighten him out. So I write this post, not necessarily for you, but for others on this forum that might also question to vast difference between what is promoted by this world's religions, and what was actually written in scriptures.
Our disagreements notwithstanding, it is good, in my view, to have these discussions.
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Funny. I thought it was the world's religions that place a lot of laws on people that they must do to be right with God. It is Christ that gives us the way of grace and faith such that we learn it is not love being expressed in these works of the law.
The acts of kindness have been put as an expression of love to others as inspired by God's Spirit inside of us. The acts of love are found in characteristics and principles that cannot be encapsulated in laws.
This is true, in modern religions a person must join a religious franchise or business of this world we are born into and financially support it, they must also adopt their religious philosophies, and their image of God in the likeness of some random long haired handsome man, etc. They must reject much of God's instruction in righteousness, and God's Judgments concerning many things or be labeled a Judaizer or legalist or other disparaging labels.
This may be what the Catholic teaches, or her daughters, but according to the actual Scriptures,
1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
So there is no doubt man's love from the heart of man exists with or without God. But the Love of God is the Love the Christ gave to me. And HE commands that as HE Loved me, so I should also love others.
I agree that the fleshy love of men is not expressed in the Laws of God. But the Love of God most certainly is, in my view. Both in how to Love God, and how to Love each other.
And yet the Jesus "of the Bible" Loved me by telling me "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."
And God's Laws themselves encapsulate the "Love of God". Is this not true according to what is actually written?
Lev. 19: 17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. 18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.
34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you "as one born among you", and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Deut. 6: 4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: 5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
How are the acts of Love Jesus Showed not found encapsulated in the Laws HE gave us, given to Him by HIS Father?
I agree that Moses gave the Laws of God to us, and Jesus brought Grace and Mercy, but do they both not encapsulate God's Love for us? And how can we have one without the other?
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
You are so very wrong on a great number of points.
Non-Hebrew Gentiles were NEVER in any of the three Hebrew covenants and they are not included in any of the three Hebrew covenants today.
And who are you, a non-Hebrew Gentile, to dictate to the children of Israel whether or not they are in covenant with God today? What arrogance!
But that has been the position of non-Hebrew Gentiles since the destruction of the Jewish Temple in 70 AD, to steal another people's inheritance with God and make it your own.
Through twisting and breaking Scripture you uphold the great God named Saul with Deific Power and Authority, Complete Omniscience and Total Omnipotence to change the Abraham covenant 4000 years after it has been closed and 4000 year after the fact to empower Almighty Saul to God status who can change, add, subtract, alter Yahweh's covenants with the apple of His eye, His Bride, His Church Israel to include non-Hebrew Gentiles into any of the three Hebrew covenants. I find that position astounding and full of arrogance and stupidity.
Imagine that. A mere man with all power to change Yahweh's covenants with the Hebrew people to now include non-Hebrew, non-covenant, uncircumcised, idol-worshiping Gentiles in the Abraham, Mosaic, and New Covenants.
Unclean! Unclean! Unclean!
I wonder why the Jews haven't come to that wrong conclusion?
That's because they know the God or Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and not the Gentile god of Manny, Moe, and Jack!
civic
Well-known member
Hebrews 8-10 show the law in null and void for believers.
civic
Well-known member
Amen
The key to understanding the relationship between the Christian and the Law is knowing that the Old Testament law was given to the nation of Israel, not to Christians. Some of the laws were to reveal to the Israelites how to obey and please God (the Ten Commandments, for example). Some of the laws were to show the Israelites how to worship God and atone for sin (the sacrificial system). Some of the laws were intended to make the Israelites distinct from other nations (the food and clothing rules). None of the Old Testament law is binding on Christians today. When Jesus died on the cross, He put an end to the Old Testament law (Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:23–25; Ephesians 2:15).
In place of the Old Testament law, Christians are under the law of Christ (Galatians 6:2), which is to “love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind…and to love your neighbor as yourself” (Matthew 22:37-39). If we obey those two commands, we will be fulfilling all that Christ requires of us: “All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments” (Matthew 22:40). Now, this does not mean the Old Testament law is irrelevant today. Many of the commands in the Old Testament law fall into the categories of “loving God” and “loving your neighbor.” The Old Testament law can be a good guidepost for knowing how to love God and knowing what goes into loving your neighbor. At the same time, to say that the Old Testament law applies to Christians today is incorrect. The Old Testament law is a unit (James 2:10). Either all of it applies, or none of it applies. If Christ fulfilled some of it, such as the sacrificial system, He fulfilled all of it.
“This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome” (1 John 5:3). The Ten Commandments were essentially a summary of the entire Old Testament law. Nine of the Ten Commandments are clearly repeated in the New Testament (all except the command to observe the Sabbath day). Obviously, if we are loving God, we will not be worshiping false gods or bowing down before idols. If we are loving our neighbors, we will not be murdering them, lying to them, committing adultery against them, or coveting what belongs to them. The purpose of the Old Testament law is to convict people of our inability to keep the law and point us to our need for Jesus Christ as Savior (Romans 7:7-9; Galatians 3:24). The Old Testament law was never intended by God to be the universal law for all people for all of time. We are to love God and love our neighbors. If we obey those two commands faithfully, we will be upholding all that God requires of us.got?
hope this helps !!!
Good stuff. That is pretty much what I would say about the OT law and what commandments we have now.
