Christendom's Trinity: Where Did It Come From?

Since you are concerned with FACTS, here are the "gods" of Egypt:

Major deities​

  1. Aker – A god of Earth and the horizon
  2. Amun – A creator god, Tutelary deity of the city of Thebes, and the preeminent deity in ancient Egypt during the New Kingdom
  3. Anubis – The god of funerals, embalming and protector of the dead
  4. Apis – A live Bull worshiped as a god at Memphis and seen as a manifestation of Ptah
  5. Aten – Sun disk deity who became the focus of the monolatrous or monotheistic Atenist belief system in the reign of Akhenaten, was also the literal Sun disk
  6. Atum – A creator god and solar deity, first god of the Ennead
  7. Bennu – A solar and creator deity, depicted as a Heron
  8. Bes – Apotropaic god, represented as a dwarf, particularly important in protecting children and women in childbirth
  9. Geb – An earth god and member of the Ennead
  10. Heru-ur – An elder form of Horus
  11. Horus – A kingship god, usually shown as a Falcon or as a human child, linked with the sky, the Sun, kingship, protection, and healing; often said to be the son of Osiris and Isis
  12. Imhotep – Architect and Vizier to Djoser, eventually deified as a healer god
  13. Khepri – A solar creator god, often treated as the morning aspect of Ra and represented by a scarab beetle
  14. Khnum – A Ram god, the Tutelary deity of Elephantine, who was said to control the Nile flood and give life to gods and humans
  15. Khonsu – A Moon god, son of Amun and Mut
  16. Maahes – A Lion god, son of Bastet
  17. Montu – A god of war and the Sun, worshiped at Thebes
  18. Min – A god of virility, as well as the cities of Akhmim and Qift and the Eastern Desert beyond them
  19. Nefertem – A god of the lotus blossom from which the sun god rose at the beginning of time. Son of Ptah and Sekhmet
  20. Onuris – A god of war and hunting
  21. Osiris – A god of death and resurrection who rules Duat and enlivens vegetation, the sun god, and deceased souls
  22. Ptah – A creator deity and god of craftsmen, the Tutelary deity of Memphis
  23. Ra – The foremost Egyptian sun god, involved in creation and the afterlife Mythological ruler of the gods, father of every Egyptian Pharaoh, and the Tutelary deity of Heliopolis
  24. Set – An ambivalent god, characterized by violence, chaos, and strength, connected with the desert. Mythological murderer of Osiris and enemy of Horus, but also a supporter of the Pharaoh
  25. Shu – Embodiment of wind or air, a member of the Ennead
  26. Sobek – A Crocodile god, worshiped in the Faiyum and at Kom Ombo
  27. Thoth – A knowledge god, and a god of writing and scribes, and Tutelary deity of
  28. Hermopolis
  29. Amunet – Female counterpart of Amun and a member of the Ogdoad
  30. Anput – The goddess of funerals, embalming, and protector of the dead, female counterpart to Anubis
  31. Anuket – A feathered headdress-wearing goddess of Egypt's southern frontier regions, particularly the lower cataracts of the Nile
  32. Bastet – Goddess represented as a cat or lioness, tutelary deity of the city of Bubastis, linked with protection from evil
  33. Bat – A cow goddess from early in Egyptian history, eventually absorbed by Hathor
  34. Hathor – One of the most important goddesses, linked with the sky, the Sun, sexuality and motherhood, music and dance, foreign lands and goods, and the afterlife. One of many forms of the Eye of Ra, she is often depicted as a cow
  35. Heqet – A frog goddess said to protect women in childbirth
  36. Hesat – A maternal cow goddess
  37. Imentet – An afterlife goddess closely linked with Isis and Hathor
  38. Isis – Wife of Osiris and mother of Horus, linked with funerary rites, motherhood, protection, and magic. She became a deity in Greek and Roman religion
  39. Maat – A goddess who personified truth, justice, and order
  40. Menhit – A solar lioness goddess who personified the brow of Ra
  41. Mut – Consort of Amun, worshiped at Thebes
  42. Neith – A creator and hunter goddess, tutelary deity of the city of Sais in Lower Egypt
  43. Nekhbet – A vulture goddess, the tutelary deity of Upper Egypt
  44. Nephthys – A member of the Ennead; the consort of Set who mourned Osiris alongside Isis
  45. Nut – A sky goddess, a member of the Ennead
  46. Pakhet – A lioness goddess mainly worshiped in the area around Beni Hasan
  47. Renenutet – An agricultural goddess
  48. Satis – A goddess of Egypt's southern frontier regions
  49. Sekhmet – A lioness goddess, both destructive and violent and capable of warding off disease, protector of the Pharaohs who led them in war, the consort of Ptah and one of many forms of the Eye of Ra
  50. Serket – A scorpion goddess, invoked for healing and protection
  51. Tefnut – A lioness goddess of moisture and a member of the Ennead
  52. Wadjet – A cobra goddess, the tutelary deity of Lower Egypt
  53. Wosret – A goddess of Thebes

(This list excludes the "hermaphroditic" major gods, all minor gods/goddesses, and all lesser-known gods/goddesses.)

Egyptian beliefs were really NOTHING like the "TRINITY" (so it is factually dishonest to claim similarity).

one could make the case these solitary gods have much more in common with a solitary deity like the unitartians god.

and we know that a unitarian god by definition cannot be love, cannot know what love is by experience and lacks aseity. :)

God is Love demands that God is more than 1 Person.

The god of the unitarians cannot know or experience love as a solitary person. That is impossible. It is an oxymoron. The only viable answer to Gods love and that He is love is for God to be Plural or Triune in nature which would explain why and how God is love. A god who is only a solitary person cannot know what love is as there is no one else experience and to know love. That god is void of love by nature.

God is a personal, relational being by His very essence or nature. There are roles within the Godhead that have to do with the tri-personal nature of His being. The Father sends the Son, The Son submits to the Father. The Holy Spirit speaks of and honors the Father and the Son. Jesus said I and the Father are one. We clearly see the relationship of the Triune Godhead in the 14th-16th chapters of John.

Now it is very interesting that when we begin with God(Trinity) we see that He has designed not only man, but the family and the Church to represent and reflect His very own nature. God has designed this order and is clearly seen back in Genesis 1-2.

When God created the first 6 days He declared everything "was good". We read the only time in creation where God said otherwise was when He created man (who was made in His very own image). He used the plural form by saying LET US make man in OUR image after OUR likeness.

But God did not stop there. He said it was NOT GOOD for man to be alone. Why did God say this ? Man was created to be a relational being just like God (trinity). God created woman so that man would not be alone as God is not alone. The two would become ONE just as the Father and the Son are ONE.

Man was to procreate and have a family. Within the family unit Man is the head of the woman. The woman submits to the man. The Son submits to the Father. The Holy Spirit honors both the Father and the Son. The children are to honor their Mother and their Father. This reflects the very nature of God.

Now the same is true of the Church. Christ is the Head of the body. The body consists of Leaders(elder, pastors, teachers etc...)and the flock. The leaders submit to Christ and the flock is to submit to the leaders.

In the above we see the family(husband, wife and children) and the Church(Christ,leaders and the flock) are all designed to reflect the triune nature of God by the relationships and order of these institutions.

God is love because He loves within His own nature. God could not love if He was only one person. God would be contradicting Himself if He was not self sufficient. God is Love means that He has this ability to love within Himself. This is only possible if He is a tri-personal God being the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

hope this helps !!!
 
This is for the readers on the forum. Enjoy !

From one of my good friends and mentor who went to be with the Lord several years ago. I sure miss my brother and soldier of Jesus, Ray Goldsmith.

The Plural Maker

Called God

Ray Goldsmith



The Bible starts early showing us that God is a plurality of Persons. For example as early as Genesis 1:26 we are confronted with a plural Maker called God. We read “Let US MAKE…in OUR IMAGE”. Most admit that the Father and Son were involved in the creation of Man, but the Holy Spirit participated as well, for nothing was created without the Holy Spirit’s participation. Detractors of the Trinity will admit this, even if they deny the Holy Spirit’s Personality. This is the one thing that distinguishes Jehovah, he is God by reason of his Creatorship. It is his claim to fame, his name and reputation.

In the New Testament Jesus referred to that same name and reputation when he said to baptize “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 28:19). It was not a coincidence that the same three were involved in the creation of Man. But notice that it’s presented as a single Authority, a single name and reputation, and yet three distinct entities are listed. Have you ever wondered why Jesus didn’t say to baptize in the name of “The Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, Gabriel, and John the Baptist”? Why did he stop with just those three? The very question itself should embarrass anyone who denies the Trinity, for it is obvious that that single name and reputation is of only those three, the same three who were involved in the “US MAKE” of Genesis 1:26, the plural Maker called God. Ultimately Jehovah is not just the Father, as some have assumed, but also includes the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Jesus Christ has become a stumbling stone and rock of offense for those who deny his true Deity, for they soon discover that they have a dilemma. If Jesus is GOD, is he true God or an untrue god? Is he really God or just a so-called god (1st Cor. 8:5)? It’s really an unhappy choice for them, for who wants an untrue god for a savior? Yet since they deny the former, they have no choice in the matter but to accept the latter. For them Jesus is an untrue god, just a so-called god. Yet the detractor protests, “But what about John 17:3, where Jesus calls his Father the only true God? This means that only the Father is true God”. Yet, as we shall see, they have become tricked by the mere sound and appearance of words mixed with some superficial thinking. What am I referring to?

The mistake comes in assuming that God can be held hostage to the finite premise that one being can only be a single Person in the Bible. It seems logical in our context, but all is not what it seems. Similar language to John 17:3 appears in Jude 4, where our best manuscripts read that Jesus is “our only Owner and Lord”. Here the same adjective “only” appears in the same grammatical position (attributive).

Yet immediately the detractors have a problem restricting the Owner and Lord to the one Person, Jesus Christ, for they know that Scripture elsewhere clearly identifies a Person other than Jesus as our “Owner and Lord”. How can Jesus be our only Owner and Lord if the Father is also our Owner and Lord? Or, how can the Father be our Owner and Lord if Jesus is our ONLY Owner and Lord? The same logic they apply to John 17:3 would deny that any other Person than Jesus Christ could be our “Owner and Lord” according to Jude 4. So when does only really mean only? Hence, Jude 4 has become a stumbling block to detractors of the Trinity because they cannot apply the same exegetical principles to it that they require in John 17:3. What then is the correct understanding of the language in John 17:3?

First we must observe that this is the night before the crucifixion, and Jesus is speaking from within his role as the mediator of the New Covenant. Earlier in his upper room discourse he had said that “no man comes to the Father, but by me” (John 14:6). Coming to the Father through the Son is the same thing as coming to God. We must understand that the Father operates through a mediator, whether it was the original creation, or the new creation. And that mediator at the time of John 17:3 had become a man like you and me.

So then, from this perspective he naturally calls his Father the only true God, but note what he's really saying here. What? That they might know you...and me. Imagine that. That we might know an ultimate creature and our eternal life depends on it? No way, friends! We need to know God to have life and that includes our knowing Jesus Christ, the one who had emptied himself to occupy a lower POSITION in order to pay the toll and be our bridge back to God. But looking at Jude 4 might help you to see how superficial the detractors are being in John 17:3. Only by understanding Jesus Christ as an ultimate and equal member of the eternal Godhead can we rightfully say that he's our ONLY Owner and Lord. See how easily the Trinity accommodates this? Without the Trinity the passage appears to be an outright contradiction to Scripture elsewhere.

You see, it's illogical to assume that to affirm the one is to automatically deny the other, and it’s a mistake to take something that is true of Christ’s transient identity and arbitrarily in your mind make that the be-all and end-all. As to his transient identity as a man, Jesus had a God (why wouldn’t he?), but as to his ultimate identity, all God’s angels must bow before him (Heb. 1:6) and we should honor/value the Son just as we honor/value the Father (John 5:23). Why? Because ultimately he is equal in nature with His Father, just as John had said a few verses earlier (John 5:18), Jesus confirmed a few verses later. They share equally with the Holy Spirit that name and reputation which is unique to Jehovah (Matt. 28:19).

Isaiah the prophet predicted the coming of the Messiah, and John the Baptist who would clear his path. In Isaiah 40:3 we read… “A voice is calling ‘Clear the way for the LORD in the wilderness; Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God.” Note it says “a highway for our God”. To show that this God is the true God, the NWT translates it “Clear up the way of Jehovah, YOU people”. So there is no doubt that the passage predicts the coming of our God, Jehovah. Yet it was Jesus who showed up, wasn’t it? Note the similarity between the expressions “our God” and “…my God” (Thomas, John 20:28). Same individual, wasn’t it? With this prediction in mind, note also Matt. 1:23… “Look, The virgin will become pregnant and will give birth to a son, and they will call his name Immanuel,” which means, when translated, ‘With Us Is God’”.

So we see the above predictions and identifications of this individual as true God, Jehovah, and yet the detractors stubbornly refuse to believe. Their minds are closed on the matter and they say “Oh, he only represented Jehovah”, but even so, that would not deny his own identity as Jehovah, one of the members of the plural Maker called God in Gen. 1:26, right? One of these plural members became the Messiah, and of course came representing Jehovah. The embarrassing thing for detractors is that in the above predictions he’s so often called LORD, GOD, and JEHOVAH, and lamentably for them, they cannot deny that he was included in the plural Maker of Gen. 1:26. Yet there was nothing untrue about the God in that context, was there? No there was not, but the Son was included, for that Maker was God, and that Maker was a plurality of Persons.

Some detractors have attempted to escape the force of the above predictions and identifications by pointing to examples where others have been called God and Lord…etc. But the attempt to escape on that basis fails to make muster. Why? Because it was not said of any of those in their examples that all things came into existence through them (John 1:3). None of those in their examples were involved in the original creation, just the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Hence, then, when the terms and identifications are applied to any one of these three, it can only be understood in that context and with that in mind.

Further evidence that the Son was included in the plural Maker called God can be found in Isaiah 44:24, where the passage declares plainly that Jehovah did the things mentioned alone. Yet the Son participated in these mighty works when Jehovah did them alone, didn’t he? Compare Heb. 1:10 where the Father directly addressing the Son says these were the works of the Son’s hands. Yet in its original context they were the works of Jehovah’s hands (Ps 102:25-26). And of course the Holy Spirit also participated in the doing of these things when Jehovah did them alone. Jehovah never lies, friends, therefore Jehovah INCLUDES the Son and the Holy Spirit as participants in these mighty works when Jehovah did them alone. Detractors have pointed to the presence of angels at this time, but that still doesn’t solve the problem of explaining how Jehovah alone did these things, for the angels did not participate in those mighty works. Just the Son and the Holy Spirit along with the Father. The same three involved in the creation of Man in Gen. 1:26. Again we see the same formula here as in Christ’s instructions at Matt. 28:19, the same name and reputation, single Authority, three individuals. This could get to be a theme!

The one thing that distinguishes Jehovah as true God, his Creatorship, was shared equally by the Son and Holy Spirit. Only God has this distinguishing power and characteristic, and this God has been shown to be a plurality of Persons.

That is why we know that when the logos is called “theos” in John 1:1, it means God in the true sense. Immediately after calling him “theos”, it reveals that all things came into existence through him, and further says that there were no exceptions to this, not even one. This can only mean that the first thing that ever came into existence did so through him. Have you ever thought about that?

If ever there were a context in which we would expect a clear reference to and description of the coming into existence of the logos (if such there were), it would be in John chapter 1. Here we have the beginning, the logos, ton theon, and the coming into existence of all things. Yet not a syllable is mentioned about a coming into existence of the logos. Such a reference and/or description is conspicuous by its absence. This passage begins with the logos in a state of continuous existence with “ton theon” in the beginning, and there is no more evidence here that the logos came into existence than there is that “ton theon” came into existence. Could such a momentous event as the creation of the Son have been left out of this otherwise comprehensive context? Can anyone think of a good reason why it would have been left out, since everything else is mentioned? Yet there is another side to this, John left nothing out because there was no such event.

Some have tried to deny that Jesus is truly God by pointing to John 1:18, where it says that “no man has seen God at any time”, and so they conclude that since men DID see Jesus, he cannot be God. But this reasoning is superficial. Moses saw God’s back, didn’t he? (Ex. 33:23) And Isaiah the prophet cried out “Woe is me, for my eyes have seen the King, Jehovah of Armies himself” (Isaiah 6:5-6). So should we conclude that the Bible contradicts itself? Or would it be better to harmonize the Scripture? Obviously it means that no one on earth can see Jehovah in all his glory at once (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) and live.

Other detractors have seized on the word “begotten” in John 1:18 to support their claims that Jesus was the first creation of God. But again they are making the mistake of assuming that God can be held hostage to the meaning of human terms. They simply overlook that God uses our language condescendingly in the Bible to help us understand some things about his infinite nature, but we have no right to hold him hostage to those terms. Assuming the word “begotten” to carry all the connotations it does in our human context, we might expect a female counterpart to have been involved in the begetting of the Son, but I trust that even the most ardent detractor will admit that such thinking is silly. Remember what Jehovah said in Isaiah 55:8-9, “my ways and thoughts are higher than yours”. Hence, then, the term “begotten” may simply mean to distinguish the Father and Son but suggest an equality of nature at the same time. This kind of generation depicts the eternal relationship of the members of the Godhead. Note the passage also says that the Son “exegetes” the Father. Yet it makes sense that one from infinity would explain or “exegete” another from infinity, doesn’t it? Let’s move on…

Some who have accepted the teaching that Christ was the first creation of God have appealed to Proverbs 8:22, but this is another place where they have been tricked by the mere sound and appearance of words. First let’s observe that Proverbs 8:22 appears in the Old Testament when God’s revelation was not yet complete. Hence it cannot dictate the meaning of a New Testament passage. I didn’t say it couldn’t agree with a NT passage, only that it cannot dictate or determine the meaning of a NT passage. If anything the New Testament clarifies the meaning of the Old Testament since it is the later revelation.

Most translations render the Hebrew verb “qanah” as either “possessed” or “brought forth…produced” in agreement with the Masoretic Text which is generally considered the most accurate. Some have appealed to the LXX’s “created” for obvious reasons. But as stated “possessed” or “produced” is considered a more accurate reflection of the Hebrew. Interestingly even the New World Translation (the Watchtower's version of the Bible) translates this as “produced”. The passage portrays a personification of God’s Wisdom, and because Jesus is said to be the power and wisdom of God in the NT, some have assumed that Proverbs 8:22 means that Christ was created or “produced” in the sense of “came into existence”.

But the mistake should be self evident. This passage cannot be teaching that God’s Wisdom once did not exist. Wisdom is an eternal attribute of God, for he has always been infinitely wise. The natural opposite of wisdom is folly, and they are inversely proportional. Hence, to suggest that God’s wisdom once did not exist is to suggest the God was once infinitely foolish! How then can Proverbs 8:22 be understood in agreement with John 1:1-3?

Proverbs 8:22 merely says that God’s Wisdom was “produced, brought forth , or brought to bear” in the creation of all things. And thus it harmonizes beautifully with John 1:3 for instance, where we are told quite plainly that all things came into existence through the logos, and without him not even one thing came to be. This places the logos’ existence as a fact prior to the coming into existence of the first thing that ever did so. Thus God’s Wisdom (the logos) was brought to bear or focused in the creation of all things. But God’s Wisdom is eternal, and this eternal Wisdom was the intermediary of all God’s creation.

Some have appealed to Revelation 3:14, “the beginning of the creation of God”, to support their belief that Christ was the first creature. The latest attempt is to base the argument on the Greek grammar. It is pointed out that the word “arche” is used with the genitive case, and whenever its used elsewhere in Scripture with the genitive, it always means beginning in the numerical sense (first numerically), and they often cite longs lists of examples to illustrate its partitive meaning. However, in trying to prove their point on the basis of Greek Grammar, they have simply overlooked that in Revelation 3:14 we are not dealing with a simple declarative sentence (predicative), but the application of an idiomatic title. And in the case of idioms grammatical construction does not play a major role in the interpretation. They also overlook that in the long list of examples they cite, none of them have the same referents and subject material as in Revelation 3:14, and so they do not provide a real parallel to the disputed passage. How then should it be understood?

Since this is the application of an idiomatic title, its meaning should be determined by the rest of the New Testament…with regard to the same subject material and referents. In John 1:3 we have a straight-forward declarative statement being made about the same referents and subject material, Christ and the coming into existence of all things. It’s important to notice that we are not dealing with the application of an idiomatic title in John 1:3, as in Revelation 3:14. Yet what does the passage tell us about the same referents and subject material? It says plainly that all things came into existence through the logos, without even a single exception! Paul tells us the same thing in Colossians 1:16-18, all creation came into existence through him, and he is before all things. He couldn’t have been more clear. Hence, then, the NT shows that with regard to the same referents and subject material, the Logos pre-existed all creation, and all creation came into existence through him. So the word “arche” means in Revelation 3:14 that Christ was the beginner (and thus the ruler) of God’s creation. Interestingly the same word “arche” appears in Col. 1:18, and there it simply means that Christ was the “builder or beginner” of the Church or Congregation, yet note that Christ pre-existed the Church, didn’t he? Sure he did, but he was the “arche”, the Church’s builder (beginning). And finally…

The Bible makes clear that there is only one Savior of the whole world. Did you know that? In fact the Scripture makes it plain that God is our only Savior:

“Turn to me and be saved, all YOU [at the] ends of the earth; for I am God
and there is no one else. 23 By my own self I have sworn-out of my own
mouth in righteousness the word has gone forth, so that it will not return-
that to me every knee will bend down, every tongue will swear…”(Isaiah
45:22-23 NWT, emphasis added).

The above could not be more clear. God is the only Savior of the whole world, and there is no one else. Yet the detractors step up to tell us that Christ is someone else, and he’s our Savior too! Note what God says: “to me every knee will bend down..”, yet we discover in Philippians 2:10 that the “me” includes Jesus whom the detractors say is another Savior…but as we’ve seen, God declared in plain language that there is no other. So no matter what detractor theology requires, we really don’t have another Savior in Jesus; rather they are the one and only Savior. Detractors are afraid to admit this because they know it will lead to the conclusion that they are also the one and only God. Yet here we see that same theme again, Jehovah is really a plurality of Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Just those three work intimately together in the salvation of mankind…they are the one Savior, Jehovah, the plural Maker called God. This plural Maker worked together in the original creation and they continue to work together in the new creation, for as Jesus said, believers should be baptized in that single name and reputation, that of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. (Matt. 28:19)

Obviously I could continue with this, for there is no shortage of evidence in the Scripture supporting the Christian Trinity, but I don’t want to make it too long and cumbersome for the reader…so I will end it right here. If what I’ve presented, though, will cause some to dispense with the usual rhetoric, and come to grips with this evidence analytically, it will have served its intended purpose.



Ray Goldsmith
 
Since you are concerned with FACTS, here are the "gods" of Egypt:

Major deities​

  1. Aker – A god of Earth and the horizon
  2. Amun – A creator god, Tutelary deity of the city of Thebes, and the preeminent deity in ancient Egypt during the New Kingdom
  3. Anubis – The god of funerals, embalming and protector of the dead
  4. Apis – A live Bull worshiped as a god at Memphis and seen as a manifestation of Ptah
  5. Aten – Sun disk deity who became the focus of the monolatrous or monotheistic Atenist belief system in the reign of Akhenaten, was also the literal Sun disk
  6. Atum – A creator god and solar deity, first god of the Ennead
  7. Bennu – A solar and creator deity, depicted as a Heron
  8. Bes – Apotropaic god, represented as a dwarf, particularly important in protecting children and women in childbirth
  9. Geb – An earth god and member of the Ennead
  10. Heru-ur – An elder form of Horus
  11. Horus – A kingship god, usually shown as a Falcon or as a human child, linked with the sky, the Sun, kingship, protection, and healing; often said to be the son of Osiris and Isis
  12. Imhotep – Architect and Vizier to Djoser, eventually deified as a healer god
  13. Khepri – A solar creator god, often treated as the morning aspect of Ra and represented by a scarab beetle
  14. Khnum – A Ram god, the Tutelary deity of Elephantine, who was said to control the Nile flood and give life to gods and humans
  15. Khonsu – A Moon god, son of Amun and Mut
  16. Maahes – A Lion god, son of Bastet
  17. Montu – A god of war and the Sun, worshiped at Thebes
  18. Min – A god of virility, as well as the cities of Akhmim and Qift and the Eastern Desert beyond them
  19. Nefertem – A god of the lotus blossom from which the sun god rose at the beginning of time. Son of Ptah and Sekhmet
  20. Onuris – A god of war and hunting
  21. Osiris – A god of death and resurrection who rules Duat and enlivens vegetation, the sun god, and deceased souls
  22. Ptah – A creator deity and god of craftsmen, the Tutelary deity of Memphis
  23. Ra – The foremost Egyptian sun god, involved in creation and the afterlife Mythological ruler of the gods, father of every Egyptian Pharaoh, and the Tutelary deity of Heliopolis
  24. Set – An ambivalent god, characterized by violence, chaos, and strength, connected with the desert. Mythological murderer of Osiris and enemy of Horus, but also a supporter of the Pharaoh
  25. Shu – Embodiment of wind or air, a member of the Ennead
  26. Sobek – A Crocodile god, worshiped in the Faiyum and at Kom Ombo
  27. Thoth – A knowledge god, and a god of writing and scribes, and Tutelary deity of Hermopolis
  28. Amunet – Female counterpart of Amun and a member of the Ogdoad
  29. Anput – The goddess of funerals, embalming, and protector of the dead, female counterpart to Anubis
  30. Anuket – A feathered headdress-wearing goddess of Egypt's southern frontier regions, particularly the lower cataracts of the Nile
  31. Bastet – Goddess represented as a cat or lioness, tutelary deity of the city of Bubastis, linked with protection from evil
  32. Bat – A cow goddess from early in Egyptian history, eventually absorbed by Hathor
  33. Hathor – One of the most important goddesses, linked with the sky, the Sun, sexuality and motherhood, music and dance, foreign lands and goods, and the afterlife. One of many forms of the Eye of Ra, she is often depicted as a cow
  34. Heqet – A frog goddess said to protect women in childbirth
  35. Hesat – A maternal cow goddess
  36. Imentet – An afterlife goddess closely linked with Isis and Hathor
  37. Isis – Wife of Osiris and mother of Horus, linked with funerary rites, motherhood, protection, and magic. She became a deity in Greek and Roman religion
  38. Maat – A goddess who personified truth, justice, and order
  39. Menhit – A solar lioness goddess who personified the brow of Ra
  40. Mut – Consort of Amun, worshiped at Thebes
  41. Neith – A creator and hunter goddess, tutelary deity of the city of Sais in Lower Egypt
  42. Nekhbet – A vulture goddess, the tutelary deity of Upper Egypt
  43. Nephthys – A member of the Ennead; the consort of Set who mourned Osiris alongside Isis
  44. Nut – A sky goddess, a member of the Ennead
  45. Pakhet – A lioness goddess mainly worshiped in the area around Beni Hasan
  46. Renenutet – An agricultural goddess
  47. Satis – A goddess of Egypt's southern frontier regions
  48. Sekhmet – A lioness goddess, both destructive and violent and capable of warding off disease, protector of the Pharaohs who led them in war, the consort of Ptah and one of many forms of the Eye of Ra
  49. Serket – A scorpion goddess, invoked for healing and protection
  50. Tefnut – A lioness goddess of moisture and a member of the Ennead
  51. Wadjet – A cobra goddess, the tutelary deity of Lower Egypt
  52. Wosret – A goddess of Thebes
(This list excludes the "hermaphroditic" major gods, all minor gods/goddesses, and all lesser-known gods/goddesses.)

Egyptian beliefs were really NOTHING like the "TRINITY" (so it is factually dishonest to claim similarity).
Better study your list above and place the 'gods' in their respective Triadic unity.
Amun, Mut, Khonsu ---- This was known as the Theban Triad
  • Amun – A creator god, Tutelary deity of the city of Thebes, and the preeminent deity in ancient Egypt during the New Kingdom
  • Mut – Consort of Amun, worshiped at Thebes ---- Khonsu the Son.
Ptah, Sekhmet, Nefertem ---- This was known as the Memphite Triad
  • Sekhmet – A lioness goddess, both destructive and violent and capable of warding off disease, protector of the Pharaohs who led them in war, the consort of Ptah and one of many forms of the Eye of Ra
Osiris, Isis, Horus ----- this was known as the Osirian Triad
  • Isis – Wife of Osiris and mother of Horus, linked with funerary rites, motherhood, protection, and magic. She became a deity in Greek and Roman religion
  • Horus – A kingship god, usually shown as a Falcon or as a human child, linked with the sky, the Sun, kingship, protection, and healing; often said to be the son of Osiris and Isis
The Triads were organized into a family normally a Father, Mother, and Son - formulating a divine family.
Although the Trinitarian Triad is different in that it is a Father, Son and the Holy Spirit -- can't deny that it's pretty similar ---- The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
 
Better study your list above and place the 'gods' in their respective Triadic unity.
Amun, Mut, Khonsu ---- This was known as the Theban Triad
  • Amun – A creator god, Tutelary deity of the city of Thebes, and the preeminent deity in ancient Egypt during the New Kingdom
  • Mut – Consort of Amun, worshiped at Thebes ---- Khonsu the Son.
Ptah, Sekhmet, Nefertem ---- This was known as the Memphite Triad
  • Sekhmet – A lioness goddess, both destructive and violent and capable of warding off disease, protector of the Pharaohs who led them in war, the consort of Ptah and one of many forms of the Eye of Ra
Osiris, Isis, Horus ----- this was known as the Osirian Triad
  • Isis – Wife of Osiris and mother of Horus, linked with funerary rites, motherhood, protection, and magic. She became a deity in Greek and Roman religion
  • Horus – A kingship god, usually shown as a Falcon or as a human child, linked with the sky, the Sun, kingship, protection, and healing; often said to be the son of Osiris and Isis
The Triads were organized into a family normally a Father, Mother, and Son - formulating a divine family.
Although the Trinitarian Triad is different in that it is a Father, Son and the Holy Spirit -- can't deny that it's pretty similar ---- The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
These examples followed the Unitarian model for their respective region and time:

Aten of ancient Egypt was the sole object of worship with no accompanying deities.

Io in certain Maori traditions was a solitary creator god described as eternal and unaccompanied by any other gods.

Ngai in some East African religions, who is worshiped alone as the single creator God.

So what is the point you're trying to make?
 
This is for the readers on the forum. Enjoy !

From one of my good friends and mentor who went to be with the Lord several years ago. I sure miss my brother and soldier of Jesus, Ray Goldsmith.

The Plural Maker

Called God

Ray Goldsmith



The Bible starts early showing us that God is a plurality of Persons. For example as early as Genesis 1:26 we are confronted with a plural Maker called God. We read “Let US MAKE…in OUR IMAGE”. Most admit that the Father and Son were involved in the creation of Man, but the Holy Spirit participated as well, for nothing was created without the Holy Spirit’s participation. Detractors of the Trinity will admit this, even if they deny the Holy Spirit’s Personality. This is the one thing that distinguishes Jehovah, he is God by reason of his Creatorship. It is his claim to fame, his name and reputation.

In the New Testament Jesus referred to that same name and reputation when he said to baptize “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 28:19). It was not a coincidence that the same three were involved in the creation of Man. But notice that it’s presented as a single Authority, a single name and reputation, and yet three distinct entities are listed. Have you ever wondered why Jesus didn’t say to baptize in the name of “The Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, Gabriel, and John the Baptist”? Why did he stop with just those three? The very question itself should embarrass anyone who denies the Trinity, for it is obvious that that single name and reputation is of only those three, the same three who were involved in the “US MAKE” of Genesis 1:26, the plural Maker called God. Ultimately Jehovah is not just the Father, as some have assumed, but also includes the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Jesus Christ has become a stumbling stone and rock of offense for those who deny his true Deity, for they soon discover that they have a dilemma. If Jesus is GOD, is he true God or an untrue god? Is he really God or just a so-called god (1st Cor. 8:5)? It’s really an unhappy choice for them, for who wants an untrue god for a savior? Yet since they deny the former, they have no choice in the matter but to accept the latter. For them Jesus is an untrue god, just a so-called god. Yet the detractor protests, “But what about John 17:3, where Jesus calls his Father the only true God? This means that only the Father is true God”. Yet, as we shall see, they have become tricked by the mere sound and appearance of words mixed with some superficial thinking. What am I referring to?

The mistake comes in assuming that God can be held hostage to the finite premise that one being can only be a single Person in the Bible. It seems logical in our context, but all is not what it seems. Similar language to John 17:3 appears in Jude 4, where our best manuscripts read that Jesus is “our only Owner and Lord”. Here the same adjective “only” appears in the same grammatical position (attributive).

Yet immediately the detractors have a problem restricting the Owner and Lord to the one Person, Jesus Christ, for they know that Scripture elsewhere clearly identifies a Person other than Jesus as our “Owner and Lord”. How can Jesus be our only Owner and Lord if the Father is also our Owner and Lord? Or, how can the Father be our Owner and Lord if Jesus is our ONLY Owner and Lord? The same logic they apply to John 17:3 would deny that any other Person than Jesus Christ could be our “Owner and Lord” according to Jude 4. So when does only really mean only? Hence, Jude 4 has become a stumbling block to detractors of the Trinity because they cannot apply the same exegetical principles to it that they require in John 17:3. What then is the correct understanding of the language in John 17:3?

First we must observe that this is the night before the crucifixion, and Jesus is speaking from within his role as the mediator of the New Covenant. Earlier in his upper room discourse he had said that “no man comes to the Father, but by me” (John 14:6). Coming to the Father through the Son is the same thing as coming to God. We must understand that the Father operates through a mediator, whether it was the original creation, or the new creation. And that mediator at the time of John 17:3 had become a man like you and me.

So then, from this perspective he naturally calls his Father the only true God, but note what he's really saying here. What? That they might know you...and me. Imagine that. That we might know an ultimate creature and our eternal life depends on it? No way, friends! We need to know God to have life and that includes our knowing Jesus Christ, the one who had emptied himself to occupy a lower POSITION in order to pay the toll and be our bridge back to God. But looking at Jude 4 might help you to see how superficial the detractors are being in John 17:3. Only by understanding Jesus Christ as an ultimate and equal member of the eternal Godhead can we rightfully say that he's our ONLY Owner and Lord. See how easily the Trinity accommodates this? Without the Trinity the passage appears to be an outright contradiction to Scripture elsewhere.

You see, it's illogical to assume that to affirm the one is to automatically deny the other, and it’s a mistake to take something that is true of Christ’s transient identity and arbitrarily in your mind make that the be-all and end-all. As to his transient identity as a man, Jesus had a God (why wouldn’t he?), but as to his ultimate identity, all God’s angels must bow before him (Heb. 1:6) and we should honor/value the Son just as we honor/value the Father (John 5:23). Why? Because ultimately he is equal in nature with His Father, just as John had said a few verses earlier (John 5:18), Jesus confirmed a few verses later. They share equally with the Holy Spirit that name and reputation which is unique to Jehovah (Matt. 28:19).

Isaiah the prophet predicted the coming of the Messiah, and John the Baptist who would clear his path. In Isaiah 40:3 we read… “A voice is calling ‘Clear the way for the LORD in the wilderness; Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God.” Note it says “a highway for our God”. To show that this God is the true God, the NWT translates it “Clear up the way of Jehovah, YOU people”. So there is no doubt that the passage predicts the coming of our God, Jehovah. Yet it was Jesus who showed up, wasn’t it? Note the similarity between the expressions “our God” and “…my God” (Thomas, John 20:28). Same individual, wasn’t it? With this prediction in mind, note also Matt. 1:23… “Look, The virgin will become pregnant and will give birth to a son, and they will call his name Immanuel,” which means, when translated, ‘With Us Is God’”.

So we see the above predictions and identifications of this individual as true God, Jehovah, and yet the detractors stubbornly refuse to believe. Their minds are closed on the matter and they say “Oh, he only represented Jehovah”, but even so, that would not deny his own identity as Jehovah, one of the members of the plural Maker called God in Gen. 1:26, right? One of these plural members became the Messiah, and of course came representing Jehovah. The embarrassing thing for detractors is that in the above predictions he’s so often called LORD, GOD, and JEHOVAH, and lamentably for them, they cannot deny that he was included in the plural Maker of Gen. 1:26. Yet there was nothing untrue about the God in that context, was there? No there was not, but the Son was included, for that Maker was God, and that Maker was a plurality of Persons.

Some detractors have attempted to escape the force of the above predictions and identifications by pointing to examples where others have been called God and Lord…etc. But the attempt to escape on that basis fails to make muster. Why? Because it was not said of any of those in their examples that all things came into existence through them (John 1:3). None of those in their examples were involved in the original creation, just the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Hence, then, when the terms and identifications are applied to any one of these three, it can only be understood in that context and with that in mind.

Further evidence that the Son was included in the plural Maker called God can be found in Isaiah 44:24, where the passage declares plainly that Jehovah did the things mentioned alone. Yet the Son participated in these mighty works when Jehovah did them alone, didn’t he? Compare Heb. 1:10 where the Father directly addressing the Son says these were the works of the Son’s hands. Yet in its original context they were the works of Jehovah’s hands (Ps 102:25-26). And of course the Holy Spirit also participated in the doing of these things when Jehovah did them alone. Jehovah never lies, friends, therefore Jehovah INCLUDES the Son and the Holy Spirit as participants in these mighty works when Jehovah did them alone. Detractors have pointed to the presence of angels at this time, but that still doesn’t solve the problem of explaining how Jehovah alone did these things, for the angels did not participate in those mighty works. Just the Son and the Holy Spirit along with the Father. The same three involved in the creation of Man in Gen. 1:26. Again we see the same formula here as in Christ’s instructions at Matt. 28:19, the same name and reputation, single Authority, three individuals. This could get to be a theme!

The one thing that distinguishes Jehovah as true God, his Creatorship, was shared equally by the Son and Holy Spirit. Only God has this distinguishing power and characteristic, and this God has been shown to be a plurality of Persons.

That is why we know that when the logos is called “theos” in John 1:1, it means God in the true sense. Immediately after calling him “theos”, it reveals that all things came into existence through him, and further says that there were no exceptions to this, not even one. This can only mean that the first thing that ever came into existence did so through him. Have you ever thought about that?

If ever there were a context in which we would expect a clear reference to and description of the coming into existence of the logos (if such there were), it would be in John chapter 1. Here we have the beginning, the logos, ton theon, and the coming into existence of all things. Yet not a syllable is mentioned about a coming into existence of the logos. Such a reference and/or description is conspicuous by its absence. This passage begins with the logos in a state of continuous existence with “ton theon” in the beginning, and there is no more evidence here that the logos came into existence than there is that “ton theon” came into existence. Could such a momentous event as the creation of the Son have been left out of this otherwise comprehensive context? Can anyone think of a good reason why it would have been left out, since everything else is mentioned? Yet there is another side to this, John left nothing out because there was no such event.

Some have tried to deny that Jesus is truly God by pointing to John 1:18, where it says that “no man has seen God at any time”, and so they conclude that since men DID see Jesus, he cannot be God. But this reasoning is superficial. Moses saw God’s back, didn’t he? (Ex. 33:23) And Isaiah the prophet cried out “Woe is me, for my eyes have seen the King, Jehovah of Armies himself” (Isaiah 6:5-6). So should we conclude that the Bible contradicts itself? Or would it be better to harmonize the Scripture? Obviously it means that no one on earth can see Jehovah in all his glory at once (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) and live.

Other detractors have seized on the word “begotten” in John 1:18 to support their claims that Jesus was the first creation of God. But again they are making the mistake of assuming that God can be held hostage to the meaning of human terms. They simply overlook that God uses our language condescendingly in the Bible to help us understand some things about his infinite nature, but we have no right to hold him hostage to those terms. Assuming the word “begotten” to carry all the connotations it does in our human context, we might expect a female counterpart to have been involved in the begetting of the Son, but I trust that even the most ardent detractor will admit that such thinking is silly. Remember what Jehovah said in Isaiah 55:8-9, “my ways and thoughts are higher than yours”. Hence, then, the term “begotten” may simply mean to distinguish the Father and Son but suggest an equality of nature at the same time. This kind of generation depicts the eternal relationship of the members of the Godhead. Note the passage also says that the Son “exegetes” the Father. Yet it makes sense that one from infinity would explain or “exegete” another from infinity, doesn’t it? Let’s move on…

Some who have accepted the teaching that Christ was the first creation of God have appealed to Proverbs 8:22, but this is another place where they have been tricked by the mere sound and appearance of words. First let’s observe that Proverbs 8:22 appears in the Old Testament when God’s revelation was not yet complete. Hence it cannot dictate the meaning of a New Testament passage. I didn’t say it couldn’t agree with a NT passage, only that it cannot dictate or determine the meaning of a NT passage. If anything the New Testament clarifies the meaning of the Old Testament since it is the later revelation.

Most translations render the Hebrew verb “qanah” as either “possessed” or “brought forth…produced” in agreement with the Masoretic Text which is generally considered the most accurate. Some have appealed to the LXX’s “created” for obvious reasons. But as stated “possessed” or “produced” is considered a more accurate reflection of the Hebrew. Interestingly even the New World Translation (the Watchtower's version of the Bible) translates this as “produced”. The passage portrays a personification of God’s Wisdom, and because Jesus is said to be the power and wisdom of God in the NT, some have assumed that Proverbs 8:22 means that Christ was created or “produced” in the sense of “came into existence”.

But the mistake should be self evident. This passage cannot be teaching that God’s Wisdom once did not exist. Wisdom is an eternal attribute of God, for he has always been infinitely wise. The natural opposite of wisdom is folly, and they are inversely proportional. Hence, to suggest that God’s wisdom once did not exist is to suggest the God was once infinitely foolish! How then can Proverbs 8:22 be understood in agreement with John 1:1-3?

Proverbs 8:22 merely says that God’s Wisdom was “produced, brought forth , or brought to bear” in the creation of all things. And thus it harmonizes beautifully with John 1:3 for instance, where we are told quite plainly that all things came into existence through the logos, and without him not even one thing came to be. This places the logos’ existence as a fact prior to the coming into existence of the first thing that ever did so. Thus God’s Wisdom (the logos) was brought to bear or focused in the creation of all things. But God’s Wisdom is eternal, and this eternal Wisdom was the intermediary of all God’s creation.

Some have appealed to Revelation 3:14, “the beginning of the creation of God”, to support their belief that Christ was the first creature. The latest attempt is to base the argument on the Greek grammar. It is pointed out that the word “arche” is used with the genitive case, and whenever its used elsewhere in Scripture with the genitive, it always means beginning in the numerical sense (first numerically), and they often cite longs lists of examples to illustrate its partitive meaning. However, in trying to prove their point on the basis of Greek Grammar, they have simply overlooked that in Revelation 3:14 we are not dealing with a simple declarative sentence (predicative), but the application of an idiomatic title. And in the case of idioms grammatical construction does not play a major role in the interpretation. They also overlook that in the long list of examples they cite, none of them have the same referents and subject material as in Revelation 3:14, and so they do not provide a real parallel to the disputed passage. How then should it be understood?

Since this is the application of an idiomatic title, its meaning should be determined by the rest of the New Testament…with regard to the same subject material and referents. In John 1:3 we have a straight-forward declarative statement being made about the same referents and subject material, Christ and the coming into existence of all things. It’s important to notice that we are not dealing with the application of an idiomatic title in John 1:3, as in Revelation 3:14. Yet what does the passage tell us about the same referents and subject material? It says plainly that all things came into existence through the logos, without even a single exception! Paul tells us the same thing in Colossians 1:16-18, all creation came into existence through him, and he is before all things. He couldn’t have been more clear. Hence, then, the NT shows that with regard to the same referents and subject material, the Logos pre-existed all creation, and all creation came into existence through him. So the word “arche” means in Revelation 3:14 that Christ was the beginner (and thus the ruler) of God’s creation. Interestingly the same word “arche” appears in Col. 1:18, and there it simply means that Christ was the “builder or beginner” of the Church or Congregation, yet note that Christ pre-existed the Church, didn’t he? Sure he did, but he was the “arche”, the Church’s builder (beginning). And finally…

The Bible makes clear that there is only one Savior of the whole world. Did you know that? In fact the Scripture makes it plain that God is our only Savior:

“Turn to me and be saved, all YOU [at the] ends of the earth; for I am God
and there is no one else. 23 By my own self I have sworn-out of my own
mouth in righteousness the word has gone forth, so that it will not return-
that to me every knee will bend down, every tongue will swear…”(Isaiah
45:22-23 NWT, emphasis added).

The above could not be more clear. God is the only Savior of the whole world, and there is no one else. Yet the detractors step up to tell us that Christ is someone else, and he’s our Savior too! Note what God says: “to me every knee will bend down..”, yet we discover in Philippians 2:10 that the “me” includes Jesus whom the detractors say is another Savior…but as we’ve seen, God declared in plain language that there is no other. So no matter what detractor theology requires, we really don’t have another Savior in Jesus; rather they are the one and only Savior. Detractors are afraid to admit this because they know it will lead to the conclusion that they are also the one and only God. Yet here we see that same theme again, Jehovah is really a plurality of Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Just those three work intimately together in the salvation of mankind…they are the one Savior, Jehovah, the plural Maker called God. This plural Maker worked together in the original creation and they continue to work together in the new creation, for as Jesus said, believers should be baptized in that single name and reputation, that of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. (Matt. 28:19)

Obviously I could continue with this, for there is no shortage of evidence in the Scripture supporting the Christian Trinity, but I don’t want to make it too long and cumbersome for the reader…so I will end it right here. If what I’ve presented, though, will cause some to dispense with the usual rhetoric, and come to grips with this evidence analytically, it will have served its intended purpose.



Ray Goldsmith
Boy time sure flies by the older we get. Ray was my age when he passed away. We use to text, PM, email and facetime frequently. Here is what one theologian said about Ray in his obituary. In the old days CARM was a great place up until the time or shortly after when Ray passed away.

I never had the privilege of meeting Ray in person, but we met via email and the old Trinity Discussion board hosted by Larry Ingraham, and later on CARM. I loved Ray, and I will miss him terribly. Along with Donald Hartley, he was my Greek mentor and fellow defender of the faith. I reconnected with him on FB, and he wrote me that the "Hommel-Goldsmith team" was one of his life's highlights. But I'm so happy for him, now; I know he's in heaven, where there is no pain and suffering - only inexpressible joy and wonder and peace! I can't wait to see him face-to-face.
Robert Hommel
July 26, 2013
 
A. In the 2nd century BCE (two centuries before Jesus Christ came to the earth), Egypt had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Horus, (2) Osiris, and (3) Isis.


B. In the 2nd century B.C.E., Babylon had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Ishtar, (2) Sin, and (3) Shamash.


C. In the 1st century C.E., Palmyra, which was an ancient city in Syria, had a triune god which consisted of (1) moon god, (2) Lord of Heavens, and (3) sun god.


D. Even the Hindus in India have their own trinity of gods, as follows: (1) Brahma, (2) Vishnu, and (3) Shiva.
These examples followed the Unitarian model for their respective region and time:

Aten of ancient Egypt was the sole object of worship with no accompanying deities.

Io in certain Maori traditions was a solitary creator god described as eternal and unaccompanied by any other gods.

Ngai in some East African religions, who is worshiped alone as the single creator God.

So what is the point you're trying to make?
My point ----- in opposition to the list of Triads posted by @Alter2Ego - a list of supposedly single solitary gods was produced to negate what she posted. My point was in showing that some of the supposedly single solitary gods were part of a Triad.

By finding 3 different gods, only one of which is in the previous list, is your point trying to disprove what I posted and are you trying to say Triads didn't exist? Or is your point that these Triads are nothing like the Trinitarian Triad? The Trinity could easily have been influenced by the Roman - Greco era.
 
My point ----- in opposition to the list of Triads posted by @Alter2Ego - a list of supposedly single solitary gods was produced to negate what she posted. My point was in showing that some of the supposedly single solitary gods were part of a Triad.

By finding 3 different gods, only one of which is in the previous list, is your point trying to disprove what I posted and are you trying to say Triads didn't exist? Or is your point that these Triads are nothing like the Trinitarian Triad?
triads do not exist no more that a solitary deity exists. both are unbiblical.

the True God exists as the Plural God known as Father, Son, Holy Spirit. One God, 3 Persons- the Tri-Unity.

now back to chasing your rabbit down the trail. :)

hope this helps !!!
 
Words not found in the bible but are 100% truth and facts about God.

Omnipotent
Omnipresent
Omniscient
Immutable
Transcendent
Perichoresis
Immanence
Impeccable
Incorporeal
Incomprehensible
Aseity
Trinity
Incarnation

conclusion: exact word fallacy argument is all the unitarians can use against the true God who is Father, Son, Holy Spirit

hope this helps !!! :)
 
My point ----- in opposition to the list of Triads posted by @Alter2Ego - a list of supposedly single solitary gods was produced to negate what she posted. My point was in showing that some of the supposedly single solitary gods were part of a Triad.
Is my list a part of a Triad?
By finding 3 different gods, only one of which is in the previous list, is your point trying to disprove what I posted and are you trying to say Triads didn't exist? Or is your point that these Triads are nothing like the Trinitarian Triad? The Trinity could easily have been influenced by the Roman - Greco era.
What I'm saying is that examples of a pagan unitarian god also existed. So your point of pagan influence can be associated with unitarianism also, neutralizing your point.

The core source of Trinitarian beliefs is located in John's Prologue. That's the hill unitarianism always crashes and burns.
 
Is my list a part of a Triad?

What I'm saying is that examples of a pagan unitarian god also existed. So your point of pagan influence can be associated with unitarianism also, neutralizing your point.

The core source of Trinitarian beliefs is located in John's Prologue. That's the hill unitarianism crashes and burns.
Yes both Genesis 1 and John 1 dismantle completely the unitarian argument. unitarianism is filled with contradictions and they must speak from both sides of their mouth changing the meaning of words/ phrases to fit their theology.

Below is One glaring contradiction in unitarianism

One God
One Lord
 
triads do not exist no more that a solitary deity exists. both are unbiblical.
I never said they actually existed.
Oh, yes, a solitary deity, i.e. God the Father does exist.
Yes, they are unbiblical but that didn't stop people in that era from believing in them.
Just as the Trinity is unbiblical (not being clearly written, taught or defined in scripture) but doesn't stop people from believing it.
the True God exists as the Plural God known as Father, Son, Holy Spirit. One God, 3 Persons- the Tri-Unity.
Yes, a solitary deity, i.e. God the Father does exist. He is also known as THE Holy Spirit because he is holy and he is Spirit.
THE Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God aka God's Spirit aka Spirit or the gift of holy spirit in scripture dependent upon context.
Yes, His Son, Jesus of Nazareth, presented as a clearly differentiated person from God his Father, does exist.
now back to chasing your rabbit down the trail. :)

hope this helps !!!
Oh it wasn't my rabbit trail it was @atpollard's rabbit trail. :)
 
I never said they actually existed.
Oh, yes, a solitary deity, i.e. God the Father does exist.
Yes, they are unbiblical but that didn't stop people in that era from believing in them.
Just as the Trinity is unbiblical (not being clearly written, taught or defined in scripture) but doesn't stop people from believing it.

Yes, a solitary deity, i.e. God the Father does exist. He is also known as THE Holy Spirit because he is holy and he is Spirit.
THE Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God aka God's Spirit aka Spirit or the gift of holy spirit in scripture dependent upon context.
Yes, His Son, Jesus of Nazareth, presented as a clearly differentiated person from God his Father, does exist.

Oh it wasn't my rabbit trail it was @atpollard's rabbit trail. :)
no God the Father is not alone otherwise He couldn't know or experience love since God is Love.

we know the Father was not alone for the Son testified He was together with the Father before the universe existed. John 17:5. And on many occasions He said He came down from heaven and was sent by the Father to this world. He said I Am not of or from this world like all other humans. He existed in heaven before becoming man. And we know He was together with the Father and created all things that came into existence. See John 1, Colossians 1, Genesis 1, Hebrews 1, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Revelation 4-5 to name a few off the top of my head. :)

hope this helps !!!
 
Is my list a part of a Triad?
These examples followed the Unitarian model for their respective region and time:

Aten of ancient Egypt was the sole object of worship with no accompanying deities.
Aten's Unique "Triad"
  • The Aten: The solar disk, seen as the one true universal creator god.
  • Akhenaten: The Aten's divine son, the living manifestation of the god on Earth.
  • Nefertiti: Akhenaten's Great Royal Wife, sharing in the divine role.
What I'm saying is that examples of a pagan unitarian god also existed. So your point of pagan influence can be associated with unitarianism also, neutralizing your point.
Well, thanks for that but I never said there weren't single pagan gods. . . . we know that there are many gods . . . .
I was just responding to @atpollard's post which was posted to negate @Alter2Ego's post of there being Triad gods.

We are even now ---- There were triads and there were single gods.
The core source of Trinitarian beliefs is located in John's Prologue. That's the hill unitarianism always crashes and burns.
NOPE, the prologue of John does not teach that God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
 
no God the Father is not alone otherwise He couldn't know or experience love since God is Love.
Yes, God is love ---- that is WHAT HE IS ---- no experience necessary!!!
we know the Father was not alone for the Son testified He was together with the Father before the universe existed. John 17:5.
He gave up glory he had before only to get it back???
I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
Did Jesus literally have glory before the world existed OR was it glory he was promised to receive upon finishing all that God sent him to accomplish? Was he also crucified before the foundation of the world??
In what sense did Jesus preexist? What does Peter say under the influence of the Holy Spirit concerning Jesus' preexistence? “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know—this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. [Acts 2:22,23] and again:
knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you [1 Peter 1:18-20] So it seems that Jesus preexisted in the plans and purposes of God.
And on many occasions He said He came down from heaven and was sent by the Father to this world.
Yes, Jesus came down from heaven . . . sent by the Father into this world HOW? His birth and genealogy are recorded in Matthew and Luke.
He said I Am not of or from this world like all other humans.
What planet was he from? 🤣 🤣

He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world......Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.......You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. Jesus said this comparing himself with the Jews he was dealing with - they emerge from two directly opposed or contrasted realms ---- He is from above, not of this world but from heaven, sent by his Father. (again via birth) ---- They are from the realm of the fallen and rebellious creation, the world.
He existed in heaven before becoming man. And we know He was together with the Father and created all things that came into existence. See John 1, Colossians 1, Genesis 1, Hebrews 1, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Revelation 4-5 to name a few off the top of my head. :)

hope this helps !!!
He didn't exist in heaven before becoming a man...... but it is not that which is spiritual that is first but the natural and then the spiritual. (1 Cor. 15:46)
Normal list of scripture.
 
Yes, God is love ---- that is WHAT HE IS ---- no experience necessary!!!

He gave up glory he had before only to get it back???
I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
Did Jesus literally have glory before the world existed OR was it glory he was promised to receive upon finishing all that God sent him to accomplish? Was he also crucified before the foundation of the world??
In what sense did Jesus preexist? What does Peter say under the influence of the Holy Spirit concerning Jesus' preexistence? “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know—this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. [Acts 2:22,23] and again:
knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you [1 Peter 1:18-20] So it seems that Jesus preexisted in the plans and purposes of God.

Yes, Jesus came down from heaven . . . sent by the Father into this world HOW? His birth and genealogy are recorded in Matthew and Luke.

What planet was he from? 🤣 🤣

He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world......Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.......You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. Jesus said this comparing himself with the Jews he was dealing with - they emerge from two directly opposed or contrasted realms ---- He is from above, not of this world but from heaven, sent by his Father. (again via birth) ---- They are from the realm of the fallen and rebellious creation, the world.

He didn't exist in heaven before becoming a man...... but it is not that which is spiritual that is first but the natural and then the spiritual. (1 Cor. 15:46)
Normal list of scripture.
sure He did see John 17:5

I will believe Jesus literal words/testimony over your pov 24/7.

next fallacy
 
sure He did see John 17:5

I will believe Jesus literal words/testimony over your pov 24/7.

next fallacy
Thanks.
in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’” [Matt. 15:9]
But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men. [Acts 5:29]
 
You ran from John 17:5 for a good reason. It supports trinitarians not unitarians
No, I did not.........someone is not reading or someone is just fibbing!
He gave up glory he had before only to get it back???
I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
Did Jesus literally have glory before the world existed OR was it glory he was promised to receive upon finishing all that God sent him to accomplish? Was he also crucified before the foundation of the world??
In what sense did Jesus preexist? What does Peter say under the influence of the Holy Spirit concerning Jesus' preexistence? “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know—this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. [Acts 2:22,23] and again:
knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you [1 Peter 1:18-20] So it seems that Jesus preexisted in the plans and purposes of God.
<snip>
He didn't exist in heaven before becoming a man...... but it is not that which is spiritual that is first but the natural and then the spiritual. (1 Cor. 15:46)
Normal list of scripture.
 
The get out of jail free card... "that was his human side..."

The supposed “dual nature” of Christ is never stated in the Bible and contradicts the Bible and the laws of nature that God set up. Nothing can be 100% of two different things. Jesus cannot be 100% God and 100% man, and that is not a “mystery” but it's a contradiction and a talk of nonsense. A fatal flaw in the “dual nature” theory is that both natures in Jesus would have had to have known about each other. The Jesus God nature would have known about his human nature, and (according to what the Trinitarians teach) his human nature knew he was God, which explains why Trinitarians say Jesus taught that he was God. The book of Hebrews is wrong when it says Jesus was “made like his brothers in every respect” if Jesus knew he was God (Hebrews 2:17). Jesus was not made like other humans in every way if Jesus was 100% God and 100% human at the same time. In fact, he would have been very different from other humans in many respects.

Exactly, Peterlag. Not only that, Trinitarians can't get it through their heads that had Jesus been in his original godlike state (prior to him coming to earth) mere humans would not have been able to kill him.

Jesus was a god only while he was in heaven (and that's god in lower case). According to scripture ALL of the angels in heaven are given the title god.

"A Psalm of Asaph. God presides in the divine assembly; He renders judgment among the gods:" (Psalm 82:1 -- Berean Standard Bible)
 
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