Christendom's Trinity: Where Did It Come From?

[Capbook]

Capbook:

You are confused. There's nothing healthy or good about a conversation with people who claim they are Christian but refuse to be corrected by scripture. Jesus Christ set the example when he instructed his First Century disciples as follows:

I just believe that topics about spiritual food is a healthy topic than worldly topics Alter2Ego.
Or it is just your "ego" that negates spiritual topics and felt onion skinned.
By the way, why you suffix "ego" in your forum name?

Matthew 10:14
"Wherever anyone does not receive you or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet."

Whenever I ask someone a TRUE or FALSE question, I first give the person a direct quotation from the Bible. If the person refuses to answer the question as TRUE or FALSE--based upon the scriptural quotation--that's the signal that they don't care what the Bible says. I don't waste time with those types of people. I simply send them on their way.

Is the true or false the only answer to all questions Alter2Ego, or explanation with points also matters?

Now, if you want to debate in circles, find somebody else to do it with. I will send you to IGNORE if you refuse to be corrected by scripture by not answering the questions I ask you in the manner that you've been asked to answer them, eg. as either TRUE or FALSE.

Are you an apologist that only true or false matters Alter2Ego?
Or you just don't follow what the Scripture taught us to reason of the hope that is in us with meekness.

1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

 

[Capbook]

I'm telling you all this so that you can prepare yourself for when I start sending you direct questions. If you plan to play the game of Artful Dodger (like mikesw has been doing) and refuse to answer my direct questions, I will send you to permanent IGNORE. That's what I do at every single website where I've debate for the past decade, including atheist websites where the Atheists won't answer my direct questions.

I believe you are really not a good apologist by sending other apologist to "ignore list."
As I experienced most apologist are not "onion skinned." Alter2Ego.
Debates is sharing of points, logics and evidences to prove each stand.

 

[amazing grace]

Once again sorry, I did not see your answer as yes or no on your Post#37 and Post#62.
Again and again, do you have the Son, the eternal life in 1John 5:12,20 amazing grace? Yes or no?

Not my problem that you can't see it . . . .Post #37

Do I believe the testimony of God that he has told us concerning his Son --- yes, I do.
<snip>
Yep, I believe in the Son of God . . . Jesus Christ.

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him (God) who is true; and we are in him (God) who is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. [1 John 5:20] - And this is eternal life that they may know you, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. [John 17:3]
God's word fits together so great . . . when it harmonizes, it just flows!

Post #62 highlighted in Red.

 

[mikesw]

The Jews NEVER would refer to their Messiah as 'God' - they have only one God whose own personal name is Yahweh.
'god' elohim/theos can refer to angels, judges, demons, the devil other beings outside of the Almighty. ---- look it up.
If you want to reference a source I just think you could do better than Wikipedia.org.

That is so sad. Most Jews rejected who Jesus is. Only the High Priest in Matt 26:62-65 recognizes Jesus claim to deity but only to accuse Jesus of blasphemy

No I do not believe human judges are the true God but they are called gods-----elohim carries that meaning elohim - 1. (plural) 1. rulers, judges, 2. divine ones; 3. angels; 4. gods 2. (plural intensive - singular meaning) 1. god, goddess; 2. godlike one; 3. works or special possessions of God; 4. the (true) God; 5. God
Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken—

The only place this idea of some being called like gods was in a judgment passage against them. But that is a good twist on scripture being shared by unitarians. Though, we might expect this to have been erased from their playbook by now.

Yes, a dog bears a dog, a cat bears a cat. And that is producing after their kind as stated in

And God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds—livestock and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds.” And it was so. And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds and the livestock according to their kinds, and everything that creeps on the ground according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. etc., etc., They produce according to their kinds through their DNA, through their reproductive process.

Hmm. For some reason God cannot choose to have a son born on earth of his kind? How crazy then that the claim of Jesus as the Son of God was constantly be made.

Jesus is called - he is titled Son of Man and Son of God. Yes, his mother is a human being and yes, God is his Father but it's not the same because there was NO NORMAL reproductive process so it can't be compared to a dog having a dog, a cat having a cat, a bird laying an egg and hatching a bird. When the Holy Spirit the power of the Most High overshadowed Mary a miraculous creation to place in the womb of Mary. . . . NO DNA, NO NORMAL procreation. A MIRACLE!

Oh. But according to the miracle, it has to exclude Jesus being truly born as the Son of God. God must be so incapable of such things in the unitarian mind.

Do I believe the testimony of God that he has told us concerning his Son --- yes, I do.
AND THIS IS THE TESTIMONY - THAT GOD GAVE US ETERNAL LIFE AND THIS LIFE IS IN HIS SON -----
For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will......For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. (John 5:21,26)
Yep, no one comes to the Father except through Jesus Christ, the Son.
Yep, I believe in the Son of God . . . Jesus Christ.

You believe not in the Son of God but only in the son of Mary

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him (God) who is true; and we are in him (God) who is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. [1 John 5:20] - And this is eternal life that they may know you, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. [John 17:3]
God's word fits together so great . . . when it harmonizes, it just flows!

You skip John 17:5. Ooops. The ink in your bible keeps fading away.

 

[Capbook]

Not my problem that you can't see it . . . .Post #37

I really can't see your yes or no on your Post#37 and etc.

And I also believe you can't see or just intentionally misunderstood 1John 5:11,12. the foundation to verse 20.
Aren't you aware that not really knowing Jesus involves eternal life? (John 17:3)

Well, if the rooted preconceived belief is your priority than eternal life, I can't blame you, God respect everyone's choice.

Post #62 highlighted in Red.

The question is within the context of 1John 5:11,12,20? Why go outside?
If you don't have the Son in 1John 5:20, basing verse 12, we can't have that eternal life.

 

[atpollard]

1. If the teaching of a Trinity god is essential to Christianity, how is it that the doctrine is nowhere to be found in scriptures within Jehovah's inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible?

John 1:1-5, 14 [ESV]
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. ... 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Since John 1 (among other places) makes it irrefutably clear that Jesus and God the Father are both GOD, you must be prepared to embrace a “Binary Godhead” making the only real question:

• Is the HOLY SPIRIT a person or a force?

Do you accept the SCRIPTURE affirming the deity of Jesus Christ?
If not, then why do you REJECT the Word of God?

2. If Jesus Christ is part of a trinity in which he has the same power (co-equal) and the same eternity (co-eternal) as Jehovah the Father, how is it that the scriptures repeatedly inform us that Jesus Christ is subservient to Almighty God Jehovah (indicating inequality)

The word “subservient” does not appear anywhere in my Bible, so I see no evidence of your claim that Jesus is “subservient” to almighty God. [Please provide a verse that I may respond to specifics.]

• Are women chattel to their husbands?
• How are wives ‘submissive’ to their husbands?

Ephesians 5:22-33 [ESV]
22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.
25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. 28 In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body. 31 "Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." 32 This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. 33 However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

and why is it that scripture tells us over and over again that Jesus Christ is "begotten" (indicating he had a beginning)?

The word used of Jesus is [G3439] μονογενής and does not mean “had a beginning”. “Begotten” (mono genes) means “single of its kind, only” and is used of only sons or daughters viewed in relation to their parents. This meaning and use of the word is confirmed by multiple ancient sources, including: Hesiod; Herodotus; Plato; Josephus.

Therefore, these verses are telling you over and over: God has only one Son - Jesus.

3. Why did it take two Roman Emperors/politicians, neither of whom were Christians, to enforce the official Trinity dogma some 300 years after Jesus Christ left the earthly scene?

Christians were being persecuted as an underground church for the first few centuries. This prevented both the development of “theologians” as a professional group to discuss such matters and the assembly of an ecumenical council (gathering of representatives from all churches in distant geographic regions). Once the church was allowed to exist without persecution, it quickly gathered to convert the local decisions into a quantified statement for the church universal.

 

[hutch]

• Is the HOLY SPIRIT a person or a force?

Do you accept the SCRIPTURE affirming the deity of Jesus Christ?
If not, then why do you REJECT the Word of God?

Understanding the Word of God differently than your brothers and sisters doesn't mean they are rejecting God's Word.
The holy spirit is NOT a person - it is a force - Gods power - regardless of how IT is administered. Angels often do the administration.

For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

But truly I am full of power by the spirit of the LORD, and of judgment,

The Holy Spirit is the power of God. Consider how nonsensical this appears when one believes in trinity.

For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

But truly I am full of power by the spirit of the LORD, and of judgment, and of might, to declare unto Jacob his transgression, and to Israel his sin.

My bible says Jesus' ministry began "in the power of the Spirit."

In Luke 1:35 the Holy Spirit is identified as "the power of the Highest."

Speaking of the Holy Spirit, which would be given to His followers after His death, Jesus told them, "You shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you..." (Acts 1:8).

And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.


The facts...

1. Jesus became God in AD 325 at the council of Nicaea.

2. The holy spirit became God in AD 381 at the council of Constantinople.

151 years after Jesus became God, he acquired two natures....

3. Then, because the Bishops of Rome could not resolve multiple "CO-EQUAL' contradictions, they overcame those contradictions in AD 451 under Pope Leo the Great. That's when Jesus acquired TWO NATURES...the ultimate Trinitarian cop-out.

It took the bishops of Rome over 200 years to develop the Trinity doctrine

 

[civic]

Understanding the Word of God differently than your brothers and sisters doesn't mean they are rejecting God's Word.
The holy spirit is NOT a person - it is a force - Gods power - regardless of how IT is administered. Angels often do the administration.

For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

But truly I am full of power by the spirit of the LORD, and of judgment,

The Holy Spirit is the power of God. Consider how nonsensical this appears when one believes in trinity.

For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

But truly I am full of power by the spirit of the LORD, and of judgment, and of might, to declare unto Jacob his transgression, and to Israel his sin.

My bible says Jesus' ministry began "in the power of the Spirit."

In Luke 1:35 the Holy Spirit is identified as "the power of the Highest."

Speaking of the Holy Spirit, which would be given to His followers after His death, Jesus told them, "You shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you..." (Acts 1:8).

And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.


The facts...

1. Jesus became God in AD 325 at the council of Nicaea.

2. The holy spirit became God in AD 381 at the council of Constantinople.

151 years after Jesus became God, he acquired two natures....

3. Then, because the Bishops of Rome could not resolve multiple "CO-EQUAL' contradictions, they overcame those contradictions in AD 451 under Pope Leo the Great. That's when Jesus acquired TWO NATURES...the ultimate Trinitarian cop-out.

It took the bishops of Rome over 200 years to develop the Trinity doctrine

Welcome hutch its good to see a few more unitarians on our forum. I'm a trinitarian.

 

[hutch]

Welcome hutch its good to see a few more unitarians on our forum. I'm a trinitarian.

I do believe Jesus was divine. For one, I just don't see any logic in the trinity triangle. And it's my belief that there are sinister reasons why over the years, Trinitarians haven't come clean on the issue.

 

[civic]

I do believe Jesus was divine. For one, I just don't see any logic in the trinity triangle. And it's my belief that there are sinister reasons why over the years, Trinitarians haven't come clean on the issue.

I don't like the trinity triangle either or the 3 circles that overlap fwiw.

 

[atpollard]

Understanding the Word of God differently than your brothers and sisters doesn't mean they are rejecting God's Word.

I agree.
Denying the explicit, however, does mean exactly that.
Muslims have more respect for Jesus than most Christians do … they just reject his claims of deity, his death and resurrection and his role as savior. [that goes beyond “understanding differently”]

So, too, denial of the Deity of Christ goes beyond “understanding differently”. [one of us has a false gospel that cannot save … they have rejected the Savior for a Jesus idol or I have blasphemed God by worshiping an idol].

 

[mikesw]

I do believe Jesus was divine. For one, I just don't see any logic in the trinity triangle. And it's my belief that there are sinister reasons why over the years, Trinitarians haven't come clean on the issue.

It helps to avoid leaving a statement that Jesus was divine. That wording simply leaves ambiguity of what one means by divine. The concept could be thought as the start of Jesus' life, the growth of it, the end of life or the resurrection. As long as the person stating this divinity means the deity of Christ before incarnation, the term can make sense.

 

[hutch]

I agree.
Denying the explicit, however, does mean exactly that.
Muslims have more respect for Jesus than most Christians do … they just reject his claims of deity, his death and resurrection and his role as savior. [that goes beyond “understanding differently”]

So, too, denial of the Deity of Christ goes beyond “understanding differently”. [one of us has a false gospel that cannot save … they have rejected the Savior for a Jesus idol or I have blasphemed God by worshiping an idol].

Since when is the conversation about Muslims!
And what's explicit to you may not be to others.

Do you think that everything you believe is 'true and correct'?

 

[atpollard]

Since when is the conversation about Muslims!

The Muslims were an example of someone who “believes different” about the Deity of Jesus (like the JW or LDS for example), however the Muslims (unlike the JW or LDS) do not pretend to be Christians that deny the Deity of Christ.

And what's explicit to you may not be to others.

John 10:30, 33 [ESV]
30 I and the Father are one."

• Seems pretty explicit to me.

33 The Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God."

• The Jews listening to the words found them pretty explicit, too.
• Like some today, they did not believe Jesus’ words.

Do you think that everything you believe is 'true and correct'?

No. I am almost 100% certain that I have many things wrong. However …

• If I am wrong about the Deity of Christ, then I am damned for blasphemy (worshiping a being other than God).
• If I am right about the Deity of Christ, then those that reject God the Son refuse to enter the only gate to the only path to eternal life.
• THIS is the hill worth fighting over … the Deity of Christ is literally “life and death”.

Romans 10:9-10 [NLT]

If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.​

 

[Capbook]

I do believe Jesus was divine. For one, I just don't see any logic in the trinity triangle. And it's my belief that there are sinister reasons why over the years, Trinitarians haven't come clean on the issue.

Welcome hutch to this forum, As Jesus is to be rendered one and the same worshiped with the Father in Rev 5: 13,14, I believe it would mean that Jesus is one co-equal with the three person of the Trinity.

Rev 5:13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
Rev 5:14 And the four living creatures kept saying, "Amen." And the elders fell down and worshiped.

 

[atpollard]

GOOG FUCKING BYE PLEASE BAN ME FROM THESE JUDGMENTAL ASSHOLES

In other words go **** yourself

You mean Judgmental like this?

Understanding the Word of God differently than your brothers and sisters doesn't mean they are rejecting God's Word.

The facts...

1. Jesus became God in AD 325 at the council of Nicaea.

2. The holy spirit became God in AD 381 at the council of Constantinople.

151 years after Jesus became God, he acquired two natures....

3. Then, because the Bishops of Rome could not resolve multiple "CO-EQUAL' contradictions, they overcame those contradictions in AD 451 under Pope Leo the Great. That's when Jesus acquired TWO NATURES...the ultimate Trinitarian cop-out.

It took the bishops of Rome over 200 years to develop the Trinity doctrine

And it's my belief that there are sinister reasons why over the years, Trinitarians haven't come clean on the issue.

Do you think that everything you believe is 'true and correct'?

You came looking for a fight … and found a fight.

Galatians 6:7 [ESV]
Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Although Trinity is the most important doctrine within most of Christendom's 41,000 denominations, Trinitarians ignore the following facts:

1. There are no scriptures in the Judeo-Christian Bible in support of the dogma of a 3-in-1 god, in which there are three persons (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) that are co-equal and co-eternal.

2. Neither Jesus Christ nor his disciples of the 1st century AD promoted the teaching that there are three persons within a godhead, all of whom are co-equal and co-eternal.

3. Trinity did not become official Christian teaching until the 4th century AD, some 300 years after Jesus Christ left the earthly scene and returned to heavenly life, and some 300 years after the last book of the Bible was written.

It would surprise some that there were trinity gods throughout the pagan world--for centuries before the idea of a 3-in-1 god was adopted by Christendom. Below are four such examples:

A. In the 2nd century BCE (two centuries before Jesus Christ came to the earth), Egypt had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Horus, (2) Osiris, and (3) Isis.


B. In the 2nd century B.C.E., Babylon had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Ishtar, (2) Sin, and (3) Shamash.


C. In the 1st century C.E., Palmyra, which was an ancient city in Syria, had a triune god which consisted of (1) moon god, (2) Lord of Heavens, and (3) sun god.


D. Even the Hindus in India have their own trinity of gods, as follows: (1) Brahma, (2) Vishnu, and (3) Shiva.



QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION:

1. If the teaching of a Trinity god is essential to Christianity, how is it that the doctrine is nowhere to be found in scriptures within Jehovah's inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible?


2. If Jesus Christ is part of a trinity in which he has the same power (co-equal) and the same eternity (co-eternal) as Jehovah the Father, how is it that the scriptures repeatedly inform us that Jesus Christ is subservient to Almighty God Jehovah (indicating inequality) and why is it that scripture tells us over and over again that Jesus Christ is "begotten" (indicating he had a beginning)?


3. Why did it take two Roman Emperors/politicians, neither of whom were Christians, to enforce the official Trinity dogma some 300 years after Jesus Christ left the earthly scene?

No discussion possible. Jesus specifically mentions Father, Son, and Holy Spirit Mat 28:19, so in some form/sense, the trinity exists. WE know little or nothing of the absolute nature/scientific definitions of God, so "Discussion" is nothing more that pushing around out ignorance. "Dogmas" are nothing but "Man's THEOLOGY" which is like noses - everybody's got one. Some Theology is Biblically accurate, and some is pure horse manure.

 

[AaronH]

All you are trying to do is deny Christ. Should I be a party to that?

This is purely inflammatory.

 

[mikesw]

This is purely inflammatory.

Her effort is not supportive of who Christ is. The questions are manipulative and then alter2ego gets upset that people do not answer them to the designs of the JWs. Their premise about Christ is that he was Michael and only an angel. So we are not talking about the true Christ Jesus at all in the JW world.

 

[Alter2Ego]

I quoted the scriptures verbatim, and then I asked you TRUE or FALSE questions taken directly from what I quoted. That's your idea of me trying "to twist things with the type of questions" I ask, because you refuse to be corrected by scripture.




4th Century decisions made by two Roman Emperors--both of them pagan worshippers of the "unconquered sun"--along with the corrupt Roman Catholic bishops who were simply vying for power, is your idea of "continuation of doctrines known before the 4th century"? You are sounding more and more pathetic each time you post the usual tripe.

The fact that you--and no Trinitarian--can find Biblical support for a 3-prong god speaks volumes.


Tell you what? Do me a favor and stop clicking on my messages, as I am not interested in having any further discussions with you. If you click on my name again, I will send you to my "Ignore List" permanently. I took you off "Ignore" previously. The next time I send you there, it will be for good.


Actually, I will go ahead and send you to IGNORE here and now.


My work with you is done.

I take it you're a non-Trinitarian.

I find it curious that non-Trinitarians always demand a verse that explicitly says "Trinity" or thereabouts when the Bible goes a thousand steps further by manifesting the Trinity before human eye witnesses time and time again. The multiple OT and NT Theophanies are Trinity manifestations with the clearest one being Jesus' Incarnation.

synergy:

I find it curious that no Trinitarian has been able to quote a single verse of scripture--without ignoring context--that confirms the nonsense you stated above (enlarged and bolded in blue). By the way, context refers to surrounding words, verses, and chapters.

Now, suppose you quote your first three supposed Trinitarian verses for the rest of us to see. Quote those first three, and I will show you the context that will enable people with reading-comprehension skills to get the correct understanding of what they're reading.

If you quote more than "Trinitarian" scriptures at a time, I will only respond to the first three.


Ready, set, go!