Calvinisms deficient Christology

[TomL]

That verse doesnt say no one was in Christ before time. Was Christ head of the Church before time ? Col 1:16-18

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Denial

sorry no one was in Christ before time

Romans 16:7 (ESV) — 7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles, and they were in Christ before me.

no one could be in Christ before another in all were in Christ before time

 

[praise_yeshua]

If Christs Headship is Eternal then so is His Body the Church in Him, or was He a bodiless Head ?

Is this a joke? "A bodiless head"...... Geesh. God doesn't need you. Like I said. Your theology creates a scenerio wherein God NEEDS YOU. To you. Christ is only means for YOU.

 

[brightfame52]

Is this a joke? "A bodiless head"...... Geesh. God doesn't need you. Like I said. Your theology creates a scenerio wherein God NEEDS YOU. To you. Christ is only means for YOU.

Well then you should see that the Church, His Body of Members were in Him before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4

 

[praise_yeshua]

Well then you should see that the Church, His Body of Members were in Him before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4

See how silly your comments were? Why did you even make them.

Predestination to Conformity is "In Him". YOU are not named but you still insist that YOU are.

Which makes Christ nothing more than "means" to YOU.

See. I was right. I was right 30 plus years ago when I said the same.

 

[Presby02]

Christ is only a "means" in Calvinism. God chose THEM.....

God does not choose the elect? Where does the Bible teach God chooses those who chose Him?? Especially given is choice is from the foundation of the world??

 

[praise_yeshua]

God does not choose the elect? Where does the Bible teach God chooses those who chose Him?? Especially given is choice is from the foundation of the world??

Were you chosen from the foundation of the world or was Christ first chosen?

There is no sense of conformity to Christ in what Calvinism teaches. Thusly, Christ becomes nothing more than "means" for the Grace required in their theology to save THEM. They become the center point of the Gospel and not Christ.

I have never seen a single Calvinist mentioned in the Scriptures as actually being chosen by name. They don't have a name worth anything just like the rest of us. Yet, they certainly claim distinction.

 

[TomL]

God does not choose the elect? Where does the Bible teach God chooses those who chose Him?? Especially given is choice is from the foundation of the world??

Um Believers those in Christ were chosen to be holy and blameless

Ephesians 1:1–4 (ESV) — 1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love

Those who would be in Christ are chosen to be holy and blameless

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Christ is only a "means" in Calvinism. God chose THEM.....

Christ is a means in every soteriology. Remove Christ and you have no salvation. It doesn't matter if you're a monergist, free-willer, Calvinist, or any other soteriology. What did you think Jesus meant when he said nobody can come to the Father except through Him?

 

[TomL]

Christ is a means in every soteriology. Remove Christ and you have no salvation. It doesn't matter if you're a monergist, free-willer, Calvinist, or any other soteriology. What did you think Jesus meant when he said nobody can come to the Father except through Him?

The problem is your theology regenerates, gives life, some will even say saves, apart from union with Christ.

Scripture however locates all soteriological benefits in Christ

 

[praise_yeshua]

Christ is a means in every soteriology. Remove Christ and you have no salvation. It doesn't matter if you're a monergist, free-willer, Calvinist, or any other soteriology. What did you think Jesus meant when he said nobody can come to the Father except through Him?

The issue is the means for who.......

You are teaching a scenario wherein Christ is subservient to God's purpose in YOU.

Christ is the means for Salvation period. The means of God for Himself. You are creating a demand upon Christ for YOU not God.

 

[Presby02]

Um Believers those in Christ were chosen to be holy and blameless

Ephesians 1:1–4 (ESV) — 1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love

Those who would be in Christ are chosen to be holy and blameless

It says He chose "us" to be holy and blameless. When? From the foundation of the world. God did not choose you because you chose Him.

 

[Presby02]

Were you chosen from the foundation of the world or was Christ first chosen?

There is no sense of conformity to Christ in what Calvinism teaches. Thusly, Christ becomes nothing more than "means" for the Grace required in their theology to save THEM. They become the center point of the Gospel and not Christ.

I have never seen a single Calvinist mentioned in the Scriptures as actually being chosen by name. They don't have a name worth anything just like the rest of us. Yet, they certainly claim distinction.

And you did not answer my question. Does it say He chose you because you chose Him?

 

[TomL]

It says He chose "us" to be holy and blameless. When? From the foundation of the world. God did not choose you because you chose Him.

The us are believers - those in Christ

Ephesians 1:1–3 (NIV) — 1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To God’s holy people in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.

 

[Presby02]

The us are believers - those in Christ

Ephesians 1:1–3 (NIV) — 1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To God’s holy people in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.

And not those who would be believers? They are not chosen to be holy and blameless?

 

[praise_yeshua]

And you did not answer my question.

Yes I did. You didn't like my answer.

Does it say He chose you because you chose Him?

No. However, that is nothing more the Calvinist misdirection. It doesn't have to say this. The Scriptures do not say God chose YOU individually/specifically.

God's choice was in the man Jesus Christ. Not you. Not me. Conformity requires it. You're avoiding this completely.

So why are you being conformed if God chose you? God doesn't make bad choices. You equal a "bad choice".

Good thing that God chose His Son. Not you. You're not the target. I'm not the target. God's purpose and plan was to create man in His own Image and after His own likeness and that image was Christ. Not you. Not me. Isa 42 is clear.

Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Isa 42:2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
Isa 42:3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.

The Targum is even more specific. It specifically appeals to Messiah.

 

[praise_yeshua]

And not those who would be believers? They are not chosen to be holy and blameless?

In Him, yes. The choice is Christ. Conformity requires it. None of us need to be like one another. We need to be like Christ. That is why you're not specifically named. Christ alone is.

Eph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

Bow the knee to Christ in all things. There is no reason to bow the knee to Calvin's musings. He was a young novice. Far too young to know the things he bloviated upon.

2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

 

[Presby02]

Yes I did. You didn't like my answer.



No. However, that is nothing more the Calvinist misdirection. It doesn't have to say this. The Scriptures do not say God chose YOU individually/specifically.

God's choice was in the man Jesus Christ. Not you. Not me. Conformity requires it. You're avoiding this completely.

So why are you being conformed if God chose you? God doesn't make bad choices. You equal a "bad choice".

Good thing that God chose His Son. Not you. You're not the target. I'm not the target. God's purpose and plan was to create man in His own Image and after His own likeness and that image was Christ. Not you. Not me. Isa 42 is clear.

Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Isa 42:2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
Isa 42:3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.

The Targum is even more specific. It specifically appeals to Messiah.

No? Great. We agree

 

[Presby02]

In Him, yes. The choice is Christ. Conformity requires it. None of us need to be like one another. We need to be like Christ. That is why you're not specifically named. Christ alone is.

Eph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

Bow the knee to Christ in all things. There is no reason to bow the knee to Calvin's musings. He was a young novice. Far too young to know the things he bloviated upon.

2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

It says the 'us", believers. are chosen in Him to be holy and blameless.

 

[TomL]

And not those who would be believers? They are not chosen to be holy and blameless?

Those who would be in Christ were chosen to be holy and blameless

there was no election to be in Christ.

One is in Christ when they believe

Ephesians 1:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

 

[Presby02]

Those who would be in Christ were chosen to be holy and blameless

there was no election to be in Christ.

One is in Christ when they believe

Ephesians 1:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Would be in Christ? The choice is made "in Christ". The text is past and present tense. There is no "would be".