The deficient Christology of Calvinism

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TomL

Super Member
The bible is clear that life is in Christ

1 John 5:11–12 (NASB 2020) — 11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

John 5:40 (NASB 2020) — 40 and yet you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

Ephesians 1:3 (NASB 2020) — 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

John 6:53 (NASB 2020) — 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.

Yet Calvinists insist man is given life-regenerated so as to believe and be in Christ reversing the biblical order

and putting the cart before the horse.

Thus rejecting the Christology seen in the bible
 
Notice what comes first in scripture - the order of how one becomes saved.

1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ,regeneration, new life, born again etc....
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.

John below the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel.

John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows.

John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.


Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.

Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.

Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.

Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit

conclusion: as we read in these SALVIFIC passages there is a consistent order.

1- hearing the word, the gospel
2- believing the gospel
3- receiving the gospel
4- calling upon the Lord
5- confessing Jesus is Lord
6- resulting in the new birth, born of God, salvation, eternal life, regeneration, born again

hope this helps !!!
 
This is Soteriology not Christology.

Just being a stickler.
 
dizerner said:
This is Soteriology not Christology.

Just being a stickler.
Click to expand...
2 sides of the same coin since Christ is the only Savior of man. They kind of go hand in hand together. Just sayin. :) We must not separate Jesus Person from His work. Savior/salvation.
 
civic said:
2 sides of the same coin since Christ is the only Savior of man. They kind of go hand in hand together. Just sayin. :) We must not separate Jesus Person from His work. Savior/salvation.
Click to expand...

Uh.

That's the reason we have different categories, silly.

Why don't we make it Christsoteriology.
 
@TomL can you let us know why you have this thread here instead of in the soteriology section. Thanks.

Knowing you I'm sure there was a good reason for it here. :)
 
TomL said:
It concerns Calvinism

Calvinism posits life -regeneration before one is in Christ through faith
Click to expand...

Yes, but they still do admit life only comes in Christ.

It's just the order, and that is more a matter of "how we are saved" than who Christ is fundamentally.
 
TomL said:
It concerns Calvinism

Calvinism posits life -regeneration before one is in Christ through faith
Click to expand...
It's a terminology thing. Paul said the natural man cannot understand that things of God. Regeneration in this case is our dead spirit coming to life, and our attaining the understanding of spiritual things, which enables the once natural man to understand the message of the gospel. The life that is found in salvation comes after belief. It is a high wall when God says that He has ordained that by the foolishness of preaching that we come to Him. But, how can we understand if one doesn't teach us? What does that teaching mean if we can't understand it? That understanding of the gospel breeds faith and belief, ending in salvation. However, there is no understanding if our spirit remains dead, and we remain blinded to the truth.
 
armylngst said:
It's a terminology thing. Paul said the natural man cannot understand that things of God. Regeneration in this case is our dead spirit coming to life, and our attaining the understanding of spiritual things, which enables the once natural man to understand the message of the gospel. The life that is found in salvation comes after belief. It is a high wall when God says that He has ordained that by the foolishness of preaching that we come to Him. But, how can we understand if one doesn't teach us? What does that teaching mean if we can't understand it? That understanding of the gospel breeds faith and belief, ending in salvation. However, there is no understanding if our spirit remains dead, and we remain blinded to the truth.
Click to expand...
You are not addressing the issue

There is no life outside of Christ.

Calvinism teaches one obtains life - regeneration before any relationship with Christ.

Thus, outside of Christ

thus Calvinism is unbiblical
 
TomL said:
You are not addressing the issue

There is no life outside of Christ.

Calvinism teaches one obtains life - regeneration before any relationship with Christ.

Thus, outside of Christ

thus Calvinism is unbiblical
Click to expand...
You forget Saul. Saul's regeneration came when he was knocked off the donkey and faced the truth. His spirit was made alive in the presence of Christ. However, he didn't become Paul until after. After Saul was utterly crushed by God's truth. He was persecuting the followers of the one he had put his heart, soul, mind and strength to serving. A metaphorical gut punch, and kick to the head. He was not saved at that moment. He was still Saul. However, without God's intervention, Saul would have remained Saul. He would have never accepted the truth outside of God jolting him as he did. It is quite possible that he was not saved yet, but was in deep, deep thought. The scales did not fall from his eyes until he met with Ananias. Why did Paul have to meet with Ananias on his road to salvation?

Paul was regenerated prior to salvation. That regeneration is shown in his complete and utter understand and acknowledgment of what Jesus said. If it had been any Christian there, Saul would have put them in chains and taken them away. It was by God's intervention that Saul's mind and his understanding were utterly transformed by spiritual truth. That happens in the heart of everyone who comes to believe. The Holy Spirit working in the heart of the elect is their regeneration. The preached word, understood at the very heart, brings forth their faith to belief to salvation.
 
armylngst said:
You forget Saul. Saul's regeneration came when he was knocked off the donkey and faced the truth. His spirit was made alive in the presence of Christ. However, he didn't become Paul until after. After Saul was utterly crushed by God's truth. He was persecuting the followers of the one he had put his heart, soul, mind and strength to serving. A metaphorical gut punch, and kick to the head. He was not saved at that moment. He was still Saul. However, without God's intervention, Saul would have remained Saul. He would have never accepted the truth outside of God jolting him as he did. It is quite possible that he was not saved yet, but was in deep, deep thought. The scales did not fall from his eyes until he met with Ananias. Why did Paul have to meet with Ananias on his road to salvation?

Paul was regenerated prior to salvation. That regeneration is shown in his complete and utter understand and acknowledgment of what Jesus said. If it had been any Christian there, Saul would have put them in chains and taken them away. It was by God's intervention that Saul's mind and his understanding were utterly transformed by spiritual truth. That happens in the heart of everyone who comes to believe. The Holy Spirit working in the heart of the elect is their regeneration. The preached word, understood at the very heart, brings forth their faith to belief to salvation.
Click to expand...
How do you know when Saul was saved? Regenerated?

Do you have a verse to quote?

Your claim seems nothing more than assumptions
 
TomL said:
How do you know when Saul was saved? Regenerated?

Do you have a verse to quote?

Your claim seems nothing more than assumptions
Click to expand...
He was saved right before he was martyred. He was a pretender the whole time. Isn't it obvious it was when the old passed, and the new came in?
 
TomL said:
Not an answer

You post nothing at all which speak of his regeneration in relation to his belief
Click to expand...
The Bible does. I mentioned it, you rejected it. He was saved when Ananias came. He was prepared for this by Jesus. You can ignore everything that happened to Paul after he met Jesus, to include just before Ananias came, and after. Jesus gave Saul a wakeup call. His spirit wide awake, his mind crushed by Jesus revelation, and the rest is history. Unless you want to try and convince us that Jesus didn't completely change Saul's understanding.
 
armylngst said:
The Bible does. I mentioned it, you rejected it. He was saved when Ananias came. He was prepared for this by Jesus. You can ignore everything that happened to Paul after he met Jesus, to include just before Ananias came, and after. Jesus gave Saul a wakeup call. His spirit wide awake, his mind crushed by Jesus revelation, and the rest is history. Unless you want to try and convince us that Jesus didn't completely change Saul's understanding.
Click to expand...
Quote when the bible says Paul believed

when he was regenerated

when he was saved
 
TomL said:
Quote when the bible says Paul believed

when he was regenerated

when he was saved
Click to expand...
" 17 So Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”

Why do you believe that one does not receive the Holy Spirit at the point of salvation?
 
armylngst said:
" 17 So Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”

Why do you believe that one does not receive the Holy Spirit at the point of salvation?
Click to expand...

Based on different passages, there may be a difference between receiving the Holy Spirit and being filled with the Holy Spirit.
 

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