civic
Well-known member
still conflating foreknowledge/omniscience with determinism.
BCF_WCF
- Thread starter PeanutGallery
- Start date
civic
Well-known member
The typical claim when something foolish is said. Notice no explanation as to how we have done either and there won't be.
Again, strange from a guy with 40 years experience.
Okay, what's the third option? This should be good. Let's hear it
civic
Well-known member
still don't know the difference between foreknowledge, omniscience, determinism and predestination.
in your world they are all the same but in the bible they are all different.
next fallacy
Still waiting on a explanation. So far just empty claims.
Do explain how we are conflating the two.
atpollard
Well-known member
Who did “put in man to sin”?
Who created this capacity (ability, potential) in man?
What was created that God did not create?
Who is this second CREATOR?
civic
Well-known member
Just because God knows something in the future will occur does not mean it was determined by God. In fact many times in scripture God denies it was planned by Him regarding evil/sin.
Jeremiah 32
“The people of Israel and Judah have done nothing but evil in my sight from their youth; indeed, the people of Israel have done nothing but arouse my anger with what their hands have made, declares the Lord. 31 From the day it was built until now, this city has so aroused my anger and wrath that I must remove it from my sight. 32 The people of Israel and Judah have provoked me by all the evil they have done—they, their kings and officials, their priests and prophets, the people of Judah and those living in Jerusalem. 33 They turned their backs to me and not their faces; though I taught them again and again, they would not listen or respond to discipline. 34 They set up their vile images in the house that bears my Name and defiled it. 35 They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molek, though I never commanded—nor did it enter my mind—that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin.
next
civic
Well-known member
Remember God delivers from evil and does not cause evil, sin. God temos no man to sin. God is Good, not sinful or the cause of sin as some would falsely accuse God of being. These passages are proof I’m correct about God and Calvinism is wrong
James 1:13
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone.
1 Chronicles 4:10
And Jabez called on the God of Israel, saying, Oh that thou wouldest bless me indeed, and enlarge my coast, and that thine hand might be with me, and that thou wouldest keep me from evil, that it may not grieve me! And God granted him that which he requested.
Psalm 121:7,8
The LORD shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul…
Jeremiah 15:21
And I will deliver thee out of the hand of the wicked, and I will redeem thee out of the hand of the terrible.
Jeremiah 7:31
They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Hinnom so they could burn their sons and daughters in the fire--something I never commanded, nor did it even enter My mind.
Jeremiah 19:5
They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.
Jeremiah 32:35
They have built the high places of Baal in the Valley of Hinnom to make their sons and daughters pass through the fire to Molech--something I never commanded them, nor had it ever entered My mind, that they should commit such an abomination and cause Judah to sin
Now Read calvin below:
“But it is quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing but the author of them.” Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God page 176
“But the objection is not yet resolved, that if all things are done by the will of God, and men contrive nothing except by His will and ordination, then God is the author of all evils.” Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.179
Did you read that God is the author. Yikes
The Famous Calvinist John Piper who gets it from the WCF says the following about evil taken from desiring god website :
"Ephesians 1:11 goes even further by declaring that God in Christ “works all things according to the counsel of his will.” Here the Greek word for “works” is energeø, which indicates that God not merely carries all of the universe’s objects and events to their appointed ends but that he actually brings about all things in accordance with his will. In other words, it isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects for his glory (see Exodus 9:13-16; John 9:3) and his people’s good (see Hebrews 12:3-11; James 1:2-4).
This includes — as incredible and as unacceptable as it may currently seem — God’s having even brought about the Nazis’ brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child: “The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil” (Proverbs 16:4, NASB). “When times are good, be happy; but when times are bad, consider: God has made the one as well as the other” (Ecclesiastes 7:14, NIV)." www.desiringgod.org/message...ds-gracious-hand-in-the-hurts-others-do-to-us
I rest my case.
hope this helps !!!
James 1:13
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone.
1 Chronicles 4:10
And Jabez called on the God of Israel, saying, Oh that thou wouldest bless me indeed, and enlarge my coast, and that thine hand might be with me, and that thou wouldest keep me from evil, that it may not grieve me! And God granted him that which he requested.
Psalm 121:7,8
The LORD shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul…
Jeremiah 15:21
And I will deliver thee out of the hand of the wicked, and I will redeem thee out of the hand of the terrible.
Jeremiah 7:31
They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Hinnom so they could burn their sons and daughters in the fire--something I never commanded, nor did it even enter My mind.
Jeremiah 19:5
They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.
Jeremiah 32:35
They have built the high places of Baal in the Valley of Hinnom to make their sons and daughters pass through the fire to Molech--something I never commanded them, nor had it ever entered My mind, that they should commit such an abomination and cause Judah to sin
Now Read calvin below:
“But it is quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing but the author of them.” Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God page 176
“But the objection is not yet resolved, that if all things are done by the will of God, and men contrive nothing except by His will and ordination, then God is the author of all evils.” Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.179
Did you read that God is the author. Yikes
The Famous Calvinist John Piper who gets it from the WCF says the following about evil taken from desiring god website :
"Ephesians 1:11 goes even further by declaring that God in Christ “works all things according to the counsel of his will.” Here the Greek word for “works” is energeø, which indicates that God not merely carries all of the universe’s objects and events to their appointed ends but that he actually brings about all things in accordance with his will. In other words, it isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects for his glory (see Exodus 9:13-16; John 9:3) and his people’s good (see Hebrews 12:3-11; James 1:2-4).
This includes — as incredible and as unacceptable as it may currently seem — God’s having even brought about the Nazis’ brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child: “The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil” (Proverbs 16:4, NASB). “When times are good, be happy; but when times are bad, consider: God has made the one as well as the other” (Ecclesiastes 7:14, NIV)." www.desiringgod.org/message...ds-gracious-hand-in-the-hurts-others-do-to-us
I rest my case.
hope this helps !!!
Then you violate His aseity. His foreknowledge is dependent on His creation. Did He create man so He would know how man would choose?
Poor explanation
civic
Well-known member
nope thats your strawman lol. its your god who needs sin, not mine, its your god that violates aesity. My God didn't need any creation.
next
Still no explanation. Will it be about 40 years?
Never said He NEEDS SIN. STRAWMAN ALERT!
Sure He did. How would He know what your choices would be? You would also bind Him to create a world where those choices come to be.
civic
Well-known member
Rockson
Well-known member
In your later statements it seems you change that.
His real longing, desire and will however was for MAN not to have fallen into sin.
If you're saying God took actions to make sure it would happen then I'd say you're out of line. MAN had free will to choose.
civic
Well-known member
Correct otherwise we could not in good faith declare God is Good as the Bible confirms.
Its an oxymoron to say I believe God is Good but caused evil and sin by determining sin and evil to occur.
So man has determined the future. Not God.
God's creative purposes is bound by His creation.
Yikes
civic
Well-known member
yet another fallacious claim- God does not determine everything but does determine some things.
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Rockson
Well-known member
You don't have to have ANYONE who put in man to sin. Sorry but that's just a fantasy.
God created MAN to have free will and liberty. That is not putting in MAN to sin. If a government creates highways and cars did they put into drivers a negligent way of thinking of using their vehicles in a unsound way? Of course not! So why are you blaming God?
Forgive me but you need to learn this. God did not need to create sin, darkness and spiritual death. All death is, is the degeneration of LIFE. You cut the power from a power line there just is darkness. Not something that needs to be created.
As I said no CREATOR needed for what you're talking about.
Man determines the rest? Obviously the future is set. Who determines the rest?
