civic
Well-known member
just another presupposition that you are incapable of proving just like tulip.lol.
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BCF_WCF
- Thread starter PeanutGallery
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"The future is not set" says every Open Theist and civic.
Slide slide slippty slide.............
Rockson
Well-known member
There are prayers in the Bible which ask God to deliver us from evil.
Given what Calvinists believe I suppose they must pray, Deliver us from evil that you want us to experience! I mean if everything has been ordained aren't they praying against God? I wonder what Paul meant then in 2 Thes 3:2?
And pray that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: 2 Thes 3:2
That is the whole thing about the omnipotence' of GOD - HIS sovereignty only serves HIS purpose, it does not impel it. HE CANNOT DO what is against HS nature!
Why some sin is unforgivable, outside of HIS mercy and grace so that no, HE cannot save them:
They can't be forgiven because
1. they made the decision to rebel against GOD's claims to Deity by their free will and a free will decision cannot be changed by anyone, even GOD, unless the person asks for it to be changed. All free will decisions must be sacrosanct and inviolable and apart from GOD's interference or it cannot be defined as free. This is not a rule but a matter of definitions: A cannot be ''not A at the same time; wet cannot be dry at the same time; free to choose an unchangeable decision can't therefore be changed by another and still be considered free.
2. Once they rebelled they became enslaved by the addictive power of evil which destroyed their ability to seek true repentance and unable to save themselves by changing their minds about HIM. They were instantly and totally unable to repent of their evil, Mark 1:15, and became even more committed to the belief that they were right to rebel against this upstart liar and false god. So great is their addiction to evil that even after they learned the truth of HIS divinity and power when they saw the creation of the physical universe with their own eyes as described in Job 38:7, they could not change their minds because they loved their sin more than the truth as we learn in Roman 1:18+.
This describes the Satanic fall that precipitated the war in heaven and had all sinners, elect and reprobate, flung into the earth. The unforgivable sin was the Satanic fall, their free will decision to reject by faith, ie, an unproven hope, YHWH's unproven claims to be our creator GOD and to reject the gospel of salvation from sin as found only in the Son. It contained the ideas that HE was no better than the rest of us so HE must be a liar and as a liar, a false god...just listen to atheists and pagans about their opinion of HIM for confirmation.
As the first liar in all of creation, HE must therefore be the most evil person in existence so they repudiated HIM, rejecting HIM from having any influence in their lives at all. Putting their faith in this idea that HE was evil and driven by a psychotic megalomania made them eternally unfit to ever be HIS Bride so they were condemned to judgement on the spot as unable to ever fulfill HIS purpose of their creation, joining HIM in a heavenly marriage.
Rockson
Well-known member
Which we always seek to give.
Certain aspects of what the creation does is in the mix to a point and degree yes. God will step in at a time he appointed and say OK enough is enough.
But you say God is bound by your version of what the play out of his sovereignty has to mean. That's your aseity violation.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
God could have created man that could not sin and would love Him. The common answer to that is that we must have free will to love God truly. But we cannot love God of our own free will. It is impossible.
Romans 8:5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. [...] the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so
We, by nature, only live according to the flesh, which means it is impossible to please God of our own free will. We must have the Spirit of God in order to live according to the Spirit in order to please God.
Exactly. Unless we receive the Spirit by the mercy of God, we cannot love God.
What the play out of His sovereignty has to mean?
Could you unpack that a little more?
It's your own words. I'm not making them up. The weird thing is your pals, the Open Theists, say the exact same thing.
civic
Well-known member
Kinda like the jihadists say the same thing about their god as you go about yours .
Things that make you go hmmmmm
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Whatever that means. Good to know you have embraced Open Theism.
Slide slide slippty slide........
Rockson
Well-known member
Very simple. You have in your mind about what God's absolutely sovereignty has to mean in other words you're saying God has to do what you say he MUST do.
atpollard
Well-known member
We venture into speculation about what COULD have happened other than what DID happen. We all know what DID happen, the Bible tells us.
I am saying that God COULD have taken actions to prevent the fall (deploying the angel with the flaming sword to prevent it rather than keep man from the second tree, for example).
However, God chose to arrange things so they COULD happen.
Rockson
Well-known member
Agreed. But remember that's not to say he wanted it to happen and intended it to happen.
civic
Well-known member
Good thing to know you embraced Islam
atpollard
Well-known member
I cannot speak to what God WANTED to happen in the garden of Eden. From the basic definitions of OMNIPOTENT and OMNISCIENT, I can safely claim that God KNEW IT WOULD HAPPEN and God PERMITTED it to happen (while possessing the power to stop it from happening). Yet that falls short of proving “wanted”. It does prove that God chose not to prevent it, when it was within His power to do so.
I believe there are verses that speak of Jesus and the redemptive plan as being from before the foundation of the world. I know people like to argue whether those verses speak to predestination and particular redemption of select individuals or just focus on the “in Christ” aspect of the redemption plan … if we could set that argument aside for a moment: the FACT that there is a Christ to redeem before there is a world (let alone a man in need of redemption) is strong evidence to support that irrespective of “wanted”, God certainly “intended” for the fall to happen.
That was a hard truth to swallow until I looked hard at “our good and His glory” both with and without a fall and redemption.
- Without a fall: we are obedient servants that do the will of God, as any worthy creation should. All the angels see that God loves us because we are good and obedient.
- With the fall: we are rebellious creatures that deserve destruction, who have been elevated to the unimaginable exalted state of CHILDREN of God (not servants or obedient creations). All the angels and mankind behold the unimagined love of God that the Creator would die for His unworthy creation. Clearly, God’s love is not given because of our merit.
Rockson
Well-known member
OK let's see if you stay with that.
I think you've changed your direction now. You now say he intended it to happen. So what happened to what you said there's no proof to say he wanted it to happen.
atpollard
Well-known member
Do “wanted” and “intended” mean exactly the same thing?
If they do, why did YOU use both words? (Was that not redundant here …
If they do not mean exactly the same thing, then why do you NOW treat them as if they do mean the same thing when I make a distinction between them?
atpollard
Well-known member
Truth is more subtle than your either/or sledge hammer …
"As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.” - Genesis 50:20 [NASB]
Rockson
Well-known member
Sorry I don't know what you're talking about.
Where have I ever said God must do anything?
