BCF_WCF

[atpollard]

You can't falsely accuse the loving Creator by saying he caused sin by some directive because these things were in the Garden. Man caused sin by his actions.

Non response. Your honor, would you direct the witness to answer the question that was asked and not make speeches?

 

[atpollard]

So if parents had a stove in their kitchen and they told their kid to keep their hands off the burners that means if their kids disobeyed they therefore caused their kid to do it? What sort of reasoning is that.

Are you really advocating that the fall of man fell outside of the OMNISCIENCE of God and God had no idea what would happen if he placed all those elements together in the same location?

It is more like letting your child play with a man-eating tiger and claiming surprise that the tiger ate the child.

 

[atpollard]

That did not necessitate sin

You cannot blame God for what man did.

Did God set the stage?
It is a simple YES or NO question directed at whether the fall was part of God’s plan or an accident outside of God’s control. YES, makes God’s ways not like our ways. NO makes the creator a non-omniscient limited “god” (with a little ‘g’) - like Zeus or Thor or Brahma.

 

[Rockson]

Are you really advocating that the fall of man fell outside of the OMNISCIENCE of God and God had no idea what would happen if he placed all those elements together in the same location?

I never said that and please stop insinuating I did. I said if a parent told their kid to keep their hands off the stove they went away, came back and found their kid did that very thing that's not evidence the parent wanted it to occur or caused it to occur or ordained for it to occur. Be careful about blaming God for things HE DID NOT DO.

It is more like letting your child play with a man-eating tiger and claiming surprise that the tiger ate the child.

Again you're making things up. I never said he was surprised I said the thought never entered God's mind that man should disobey him! Give up your Calvinism and acknowledge God DID NOT put in man to sin! Don't make a false charge towards God.

 

[atpollard]

I never said that and please stop insinuating I did.

Is insinuating falsely your exclusive job?
I accused God of doing only those things that scripture claims God did ... Create the garden and place mankind in the garden and cast down Satan.

 

[TomL]

Did God set the stage?
It is a simple YES or NO question directed at whether the fall was part of God’s plan or an accident outside of God’s control. YES, makes God’s ways not like our ways. NO makes the creator a non-omniscient limited “god” (with a little ‘g’) - like Zeus or Thor or Brahma.

God had put the tree there but he did not cause them to eat of it

 

[atpollard]

God had put the tree there but he did not cause them to eat of it

Of course not. God placed Satan there to tempt them … to deceive Eve … as the BCF says, God uses secondary causes, not negates them. Same as we see in Job … “Have you considered my servant Job?” [God in control and Satan as the instrument God uses.]

 

[Rockson]

Of course not. God placed Satan there to tempt them … to deceive Eve … as the BCF says, God uses secondary causes, not negates them. Same as we see in Job … “Have you considered my servant Job?” [God in control and Satan as the instrument God uses.]

I think your answer is somewhat murky though and can lead to a wrong conclusion.

You have it God placed Satan there to tempt them leaving an impression that God wanted this to be done or longed for it to be done. You might want to consider he had to allow this to be done. You might consider as strange as it might seem to you that God had to allow it to be done. You see an inkling of something of interest in Lk 21:31 where it states, “Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat....." Lk 21:31

Satan insisting and demanding something? Or am I making that up when I quote the above verse? The Kingdom of Darkness apparently was given the right to tempt man and God allowed it to keep the LOVE and LIBERTY of free will in tact when it comes to Adam and Eve. I see no indication with that God need to use Satan as any instrument for anything at all! It just was that way for the reason it was that way. God allowed the scenario whereby Man would be tempted.

 

[TomL]

Of course not. God placed Satan there to tempt them … to deceive Eve … as the BCF says, God uses secondary causes, not negates them. Same as we see in Job … “Have you considered my servant Job?” [God in control and Satan as the instrument God uses.]

Secondary causes have no determinative power

 

[Presby02]

Who placed Adam, Eve, the TREE and the Serpent in the same garden?
Was it God who set that stage, or not?
Did that have any impact on the world into which we were born?

Exactly. AMEN

 

[Presby02]

Since GOD does not want anyone to persih in unrepentance, 2 Peter 3:9, and
since all HE had to do to achieve this desire was to NOT CREATE those HE knew woulddie unepentant, thenthe fact of theirexist

If He does not want any to perish why do they perish? God us omnipotent. He could save all if He wanted to.

 

[Presby02]

Sorry God is not the cause of your sin

And you fail to show there is anything rediculous about that statement

1John 2:16 For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life—is not from the Father but is from the world.

Jer. 32:35 They built the high places of Baal in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to offer up their sons and daughters to Molech, though I did not command them, nor did it enter into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Is. 30:1 “Ah, stubborn children,” declares the LORD,
“who carry out a plan, but not mine,
and who make an alliance, but not of my Spirit,
that they may add sin to sin;

Gal. 5:7 You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion is not from him who calls you.

1Cor. 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

Your claim there are two ultimate causes is ignorant, laughable and if you want to throw in ridiculous, that to. LOL

 

[Presby02]

That did not necessitate sin

You cannot blame God for what man did.

Nobody is blaming God for anything. He intended sin to enter the world. Hence the tree, garden, Adam, Eve and the serpent. Did He know exactly what was going to happen? Yup.

 

[civic]

Nobody is blaming God for anything. He intended sin to enter the world. Hence the tree, garden, Adam, Eve and the serpent. Did He know exactly what was going to happen? Yup.

false- God did not create the serpent in the garden- it became the serpent as a result of the fall.

nice try but you need to get the biblical narrative correct instead of twisting it to support your false premise.

 

[atpollard]

You have it God placed Satan there to tempt them leaving an impression that God wanted this to be done or longed for it to be done.

I do not have a clue what God thought or felt in the beginning. He has not revealed even a hint of that to me. What I do know, is that God ALWAYS had the cross as His goal. His redemption was ALWAYS God’s plan, so there WAS going to be a fall as certain as Joseph’s brothers were going to sell him into slavery (because there WAS going to be a Passover lamb to foreshadow the Lamb of God).

So placing Eve, the tree and the serpent together was no “unfortunate accident” - it was THE PLAN.

 

[Presby02]

false- God did not create the serpent in the garden- it became the serpent as a result of the fall.

nice try but you need to get the biblical narrative correct instead of twisting it to support your false premise.

And God had no idea right?

And if it's after fall then tempting Eve was a good thing then?

He created "all things" except the serpent?

Some expert

 

[civic]

So placing Eve, the tree and the serpent together was no “unfortunate accident” - it was THE PLAN.

presuppositionalism as work.

where does God say it was His plan?

 

[civic]

And God had no idea right?

He created "all things" except the serpent?

Some expert

conflating foreknowledge with determinism.

next

 

[Presby02]

conflating foreknowledge with determinism.

next

And God had no idea right? The fall was a creative opposite? LOL

Again, this a guy who claims 40 years expertise.

 

[Presby02]

presuppositionalism as work.

where does God say it was His plan?

Either it was His plan or it was a unforeseen creative opps. Which?