BCF_WCF

[Presby02]

Good thing to know you embraced Islam

The future is open. Neither I or God know for certain right?

 

[Presby02]

Agreed. But remember that's not to say he wanted it to happen and intended it to happen.

So He created the garden, Adam and Eve, the tree, placed the serpent in the garden but did not intend for it to happen? He basically He had no idea?

 

[Presby02]

We venture into speculation about what COULD have happened other than what DID happen. We all know what DID happen, the Bible tells us.

I am saying that God COULD have taken actions to prevent the fall (deploying the angel with the flaming sword to prevent it rather than keep man from the second tree, for example).
However, God chose to arrange things so they COULD happen.

Exactly. Even if God simply allowed it to occur He had a purpose in doing so and certainly could have stopped it in a number of ways.

 

[civic]

The future is open. Neither I or God know for certain right?

nope God is all knowing

anything else lol

 

[Presby02]

nope God is all knowing

anything else lol

Not if the future is open. LOL

 

[civic]

Not if the future is open. LOL

Nice to know you deny God is Omniscient

 

[Presby02]

Nice to know you deny God is Omniscient

This from the guy who says "the future is open".

 

[atpollard]

Sorry I don't know what you're talking about.

Did God “want” or “intend” for all of the evil that befell Joseph? Attack of his brothers. Sold into slavery. False accusation and imprisonment.

Hint: describe the Last Supper (our bread and wine) if Joseph had never gone to Egypt.

 

[Rockson]

Hint: describe the Last Supper (our bread and wine) if Joseph had never gone to Egypt.

Joseph.....Egypt......Last Supper......You say that's a hint....UM.....well ler um......think I need another hint......think you've gone way to deep and maybe not a good thing.

 

[atpollard]

Joseph.....Egypt......Last Supper......You say that's a hint....UM.....well ler um......think I need another hint......think you've gone way to deep and maybe not a good thing.

If Joseph and his brothers had gotten along.

• Would Joseph have ended up in Egypt as second to Pharaoh in power?
• Would the nation of Israel have settled in Egypt without Joseph as second in power?
• Would there be an Israel as slaves if they never went to Egypt?
• Would there have been a Moses to lead the nation out of slavery?
• Would there have been the plagues ending in the Passover Lamb to save the first born?

Now describe the meaning of the Last Supper (Jesus meal with the 12 and the cup of His blood and the bread that is His body) without:

• A Passover Holiday to commemorate the death/passing over of the First Born.
• Any reference to slavery or freedom from slavery.
• Any reference to a lamb, or the blood of the lamb shed to save.
• Any unleavened bread.

Without Egypt, the message would have been one of God choosing Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and granting just their descendants a promised kingdom for His people. (If you think Christianity is too ‘Calvinist’ now, build it on a foundation of just God choosing Abraham, Isaac and Jacob without any of Leviticus, Exodus or Deuteronomy needed for a people delivered from slavery and tested in the wilderness.).

So my point is this: Did God get lucky with Joseph’s brothers wanting to kill him and selling him as a slave, or was it an integral part of God’s plan to explain Christ and Salvation to the world? The reality is more complex than a simple “God had nothing to do with any part of it” or “God forced every action by every person”. Neither of those simple choices agrees with scripture.

 

[Rockson]

If Joseph and his brothers had gotten along.

• Would Joseph have ended up in Egypt as second to Pharaoh in power?
• Would the nation of Israel have settled in Egypt without Joseph as second in power?
• Would there be an Israel as slaves if they never went to Egypt?
• Would there have been a Moses to lead the nation out of slavery?
• Would there have been the plagues ending in the Passover Lamb to save the first born?

Now describe the meaning of the Last Supper (Jesus meal with the 12 and the cup of His blood and the bread that is His body) without:

• A Passover Holiday to commemorate the death/passing over of the First Born.
• Any reference to slavery or freedom from slavery.
• Any reference to a lamb, or the blood of the lamb shed to save.
• Any unleavened bread.

Without Egypt, the message would have been one of God choosing Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and granting just their descendants a promised kingdom for His people. (If you think Christianity is too ‘Calvinist’ now, build it on a foundation of just God choosing Abraham, Isaac and Jacob without any of Leviticus, Exodus or Deuteronomy needed for a people delivered from slavery and tested in the wilderness.).

OK I read your post. I'd say a different scenario would have come about where any and all crucial things we know about redemption would have been said in a different way but would still be understood.

eg. The Lamb used for sacrifice. Gen 22:8 It still could have been done and was done before the Egypt event. Gen 15:9 and other verses used animals as well as type and shadows of Christ and of redemptive work to come.

 

[atpollard]

So my point is this: Did God get lucky with Joseph’s brothers wanting to kill him and selling him as a slave, or was it an integral part of God’s plan to explain Christ and Salvation to the world? The reality is more complex than a simple “God had nothing to do with any part of it” or “God forced every action by every person”. Neither of those simple choices agrees with scripture.

I repeated THE POINT because it seems to have gone unnoticed in the (liked) straining of gnats.

[a recap of how we got here so the original point can be seen:]

Truth is more subtle than your either/or sledge hammer …

"As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.” - Genesis 50:20 [NASB]

Sorry I don't know what you're talking about.

Did God “want” or “intend” for all of the evil that befell Joseph? Attack of his brothers. Sold into slavery. False accusation and imprisonment.

Hint: describe the Last Supper (our bread and wine) if Joseph had never gone to Egypt.

Joseph.....Egypt......Last Supper......You say that's a hint....UM.....well ler um......think I need another hint......think you've gone way to deep and maybe not a good thing.