Baptism "en" the Holy Ghost

[Fred]

You associate "the Holy Spirit" with every manifestation of Him. But a person does not have to have wisdom from the Holy Spirit, in order to have knowledge from the Holy Spirit, or faith from the Holy Spirit, or healing from the Spirit, or miracles from the Spirit, or prophecy from the Spirit, or distinguishing spirits, or speaking in tongues, or understanding tongues. The indwelling is just another manifestation of the same Spirit. No one in the OT had the indwelling of the Spirit but many of them had the same Spirit enabling them to do all of the things listed here (from 1 Cor 12:4-11). The Spirit can still do all these signs through people in whom He does not reside (indwell). Just because a person has the Holy Spirit does not mean that they have the Spirit indwelling their heart. They may just have the miraculous signs listed above, which is exactly what Cornelius had until he was baptized in water which is the point at which he was saved, forgiven, and was added to the Body of Christ.

It's for those "in the church" (1 Corinthians 12:28).

I like how you ramble on and on and then your position is so easily refuted.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

False, because according to Acts 2:4 they were "filled with the Holy Spirit."

SO Jesus used the wrong terminology to them, then!!! "Filled with the Holy Spirit" only means that they were Fully motivated by Him. But HEY!!!! Hang onto your cessationism, if that's what you want to believe. It's not a salvific issue.

 

[Fred]

SO Jesus lied to them.

Which proves you misunderstand what Jesus taught here.

"Filled with the Holy Spirit" only means that they were Fully motivated by Him.

It means they were indwelt by Him.
Filling - Indweling.

Cornelius received "the same gift" (Acts 11:17). Just as those in Acts 2:4 were filled with the Holy Spirit, so too was Cornelius.

Hang on to your make-believe myths if that's what you want to believe.

 

[Doug Brents]

en·due
/inˈdo͞o,enˈdo͞o/
past tense: endued; past participle: endued

1. endow or provide with a quality or ability.
   "our sight would be endued with a far greater sharpness"

Bob's explanation is more accurate to this definition.

It's for those "in the church" (1 Corinthians 12:28).

I like how you ramble on and on and then your position is so easily refuted.

1 Cor 12:28 is speaking of a hierarchy of positions of authority and of the gifts of the Spirit in the Church. But were the Apostles, when they were sent out two by two, "in the Church"? No, the Church was not established until Pentecost. But they did many of these wonders. No, you have not refuted my statements.

 

[Fred]

en·due
/inˈdo͞o,enˈdo͞o/
past tense: endued; past participle: endued

1. endow or provide with a quality or ability.
   "our sight would be endued with a far greater sharpness"

Bob's explanation is more accurate to this definition.

Used in association with the baptism with the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:5)

1 Cor 12:28 is speaking of a hierarchy of positions of authority and of the gifts of the Spirit in the Church.

Yes, "in the church" (1 Corinthians 12:28).
One of those gifts for those in the church was the gift of tongues (1 Corinthians 12:10).
The Gentiles had this gift for those in the church before their water baptism (Acts 10:46, 48).

But were the Apostles, when they were sent out two by two, "in the Church"? No

Something I never denied.

, the Church was not established until Pentecost.

Something I never denied.

But they did many of these wonders.

Yeah...ok. Your point?

No, you have not refuted my statements.

I did about the Gentiles in Acts 10.
They were saved before their water baptism.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Which proves you misunderstand what Jesus taught here.

ONE OF US DID, fer sure, ser sure!!!

It means they were indwelt by Him.
Filling - Indweling.

Then why did Jesus say "endued", when He was SUPPOSED to say "Indwelled"???

Cornelius received "the same gift" (Acts 11:17). Just as those in Acts 2:4 were filled with the Holy Spirit, so too was Cornelius.

SO??? what's the problem with that?? They were Born again, and subsequently Endued with power. Still happens today.

Hang on to your make-believe myths if that's what you want to believe.

Chuckle!!! With your permission, I will.

 

[Fred]

ONE OF US DID, fer sure, ser sure!!!

Then why did Jesus say "endued", when He was SUPPOSED to say "Indwelled"???

Means the same thing. He isn't limited to the way He chooses to express Himself.

SO??? what's the problem with that?? They were Born again, and subsequently Endued with power. Still happens today.

Yes, all Christian are filled with the Holy Spirit at the moment they enter into the NT Church.

 

[Doug Brents]

Yes, "in the church" (1 Corinthians 12:28).
One of those gifts for those in the church was the gift of tongues (1 Corinthians 12:10).
The Gentiles had this gift for those in the church before their water baptism (Acts 10:46, 48).

1 Cor 12:28 does not say that those gifts are exclusively for the Church. It says that, in the Church there is a hierarchy of gifts and administrations. It does not exclude the Spirit from giving those gifts (tongues and praise) to those not in the Church.

Something I never denied.

Yeah...ok. Your point?

Never said you did. These are points that indicate that these gifts were given to those not in the Church.

I did about the Gentiles in Acts 10.
They were saved before their water baptism.

No, they received the miraculous works of tongues and praise from the Spirit. The indwelling was not received until they were baptized in water in verse 47-8.

 

[Fred]

1 Cor 12:28 does not say that those gifts are exclusively for the Church.

There is no passage that says they are not for the church.

I have what it says while you have what you hope it says even though it doesn't say it.

That's called wishful thinking.

 

[Doug Brents]

There is no passage that says they are not for the church.

I have what it says while you have what you hope it says even though it doesn't.

You have what you think it says, while ignoring the evidence of other Scripture.
I have that evidence from many places in Scripture, and the explicit statement in Scripture that the indwelling is given to those who are in Christ, and that we are baptized into Christ, and in baptism we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, forgiveness of sin, union with Jesus' death and resurrection, and entry into the Body of Christ.

 

[Fred]

You have what you think it says,

"in the church" is from 1 Corinthians 12:28.

Let me clue you in on something.

That verse is found in the Bible.

 

[Doug Brents]

"in the church" is from 1 Corinthians 12:28.

Let me clue you in on something.

That verse is found in the Bible.

Indeed it is, but your condescending attitude does not avail you in this conversation. Yes, as I have said, that verse is talking about the hierarchy of gifts and administration "in the Church", but it does not in any way impact the gifts given out side of the Church. As I pointed out, the Apostles had these same gifts long before the Church was even established. So for you to place exclusivity on these gifts where the Bible does not is very presumptive of you, to say the least.

 

[Fred]

Indeed it is, but your condescending attitude does not avail you in this conversation

Because I am dealing with a person who refuses to believe how the words of the Bible are properly defined.

Make-believe and fairy tale time.
There was a time in life when this would be okay, but there comes a time to put away such childish notions especially when it comes the Bible.

 

[Doug Brents]

Because I am dealing with a person who refuses to believe how the words of the Bible are properly defined.

Ahh, so you believe that because I don't believe the way you do, it is ok for you to behave that way? That is all I needed to know, thanks.

Make-believe and fairy tale time.
There was a time in life when this would be okay, but there comes a time to put away such childish notions especially when it comes the Bible.

No fairy tales at all, although there is a lot of allegory in Scripture.

 

[Fred]

Ahh, so you believe that because I don't believe the way you do

I can't take serious a person who plays make-believe.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Means the same thing.

Except, of course that it doesn't.

Yes, all Christian are filled with the Holy Spirit at the moment they enter into the NT Church.

What's the "NT Church" got to do with it??? People are INDWELLED by the Holy Spirit when they're Born Again.

 

[Fred]

Except, of course that it doesn't.

When Cornelius was baptized with the Holy Spirit he was filled with the Holy Spirit.
Start with that.

What's the "NT Church" got to do with it??? People are INDWELLED by the Holy Spirit when they're Born Again.

Thus, making them a member of the Church.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

When Cornelius was baptized with the Holy Spirit he was filled with the Holy Spirit.

Except BIBLICALLY it doesn't say ANY OF THAT - your Paradigm does.

It simply states that the Holy Spirit "FELL ON ALL OF THEM". Nothing about "indwelling". I understand that your "theological Paradigm" doesn't agree. that's normal for cessationists.

 

[Fred]

Except BIBLICALLY it doesn't say ANY OF THAT - your Paradigm does.

Try reading Acts 11:16 - the Gentiles were baptized with the Holy Spirit.

Then try reading Acts 11:17 - they had "the same gift" given to them as those in Acts 2:4 - they were "filled with the Holy Spirit" which means so were the Gentiles!

Your confusion has it that they were "filled" but not "indwelt". Yeah, the Holy Spirit had filled them, but He didn't indwell them.
Total nonsense.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Try reading Acts 11:16 - the Gentiles were baptized with the Holy Spirit.

Then try reading Acts 11:17 - they had "the same gift" given to them as those in Acts 2:4 - they were "filled with the Holy Spirit" which means so were the Gentiles!

Your confusion has it that they were "filled" but not "indwelt". Yeah, the Holy Spirit had filled them, but He didn't indwell them.
Total nonsense.

I agree!! what YOU PROPOSE IS TOTAL NONSENSE. Of course, none of which is anything I said.

You're apparently making it up as you go along. What makes you think that the ones "Filled" weren't already "Indwelled"??? If they weren't INDWELLED, then they weren't even Christians.

Once again for the record:
John 20:22 = the Disciples (and others subsequently) are INDWELLED by the Holy Spirit = the Holy Spirit IN the disciples.
Act 2:4 = the Disciples (and others subsequently) are "endued with POWER from on high" = the Holy SPirit ON the disciples.

Simple as that.