Baptism "en" the Holy Ghost

[Doug Brents]

Acts 8:20 refers to the Holy Spirit Himself.

Verse 19 shows clearly that Simon was not trying to buy God (the Holy Spirit), but was asking to buy the ability to lay hands on people and give them the miraculous working of the Holy Spirit. This was just one small part of who and what the Holy Spirit is and does.

 

[Doug Brents]

Well the term receive the spirit refers to the reception of the Spirit himself as per scriptures quoted

John 7:38–39 (KJV 1900) — 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

this reception is the indwelling

John 14:16–17 (KJV 1900) — 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

as is this reception



i am aware you believe water baptism is necessary for salvation but I believe the baptism en the Spirit is necessary for salvation

This baptism is what places us in the body of Christ

1 Corinthians 12:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

The reception of the indwelling of the Spirit (baptism en the Holy Spirit) is the result of water baptism as Mark 16:16, Matt 28:19, Acts 2:38, Col 2:11-14, and Rom 6:1-4 indicate. The falling of the holy Spirit on the people on Pentecost and with Cornelius was demonstrative of the Kingdom coming to the Jews and then to the Gentiles; it was not indicative of salvation occurring. If the falling of the Holy Spirit on Cornelius was indicative of salvation, then water baptism would have been a moot point for him. If water baptism is just an "outward sign of an inward change" then the demonstration of the Holy Spirit coming in fire and miraculous signs done by Cornelius would have rendered the water baptism "sign" immaterial.

The gentiles received this previous to water baptism and the Samaritans had received water baptism but had not received the spirit himself

The Gentiles with Cornelius received the miraculous works of the Spirit but not the indwelling before water baptism. the Samaritans received the indwelling at water baptism but had not receive the miraculous works of the Spirit until the Apostles came down to them.

Note the apostles came down to Samaria that they might receive the Spirit not supernatural gifts

When a person is baptized into Christ he receives the Holy Spirit's indwelling immediately (Acts 2:38, Rom 8:9-11).

According to the evidence I see in Scripture, only the Apostles could pass on the miraculous works of the Spirit to others. Those others could then do miracles, but they could not pass the ability on to others. Phillip, not being an Apostle, could not give the Samaritans the ability to do miracles, but the Apostles Peter and John could pass on that ability. Phillip could baptize them into Christ through which they received the cleansing work of the Holy Spirit (Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-4) and the indwelling.

 

[Doug Brents]

It's with the holy Spirit that one is baptized into Christ

1 Corinthians 12:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Yes, and that occurs during water baptism (Matt 28:19 - baptism is an act that the teacher must do, Acts 2:38 - baptism is an act that the disciple must receive, Col 2:11-14 & Rom 6:1-4 - during baptism the Holy Spirit unites us with Jesus' death and resurrection and cuts our sin from us).

 

[Doug Brents]

Can anyone seriously believe Simon was regenerate and indwelt

Acts 8:8–13 (KJV 1900) — 8 And there was great joy in that city. 9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one: 10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God. 11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.


Acts 8:18–23 (KJV 1900) — 18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. 20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. 21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. 22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. 23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.

He was water baptised

Yes, he was NEWLY baptized. Is a person who is baptized, and therefore indwelt by the Spirit, 100% sinless for the rest of his life? No. He will continue to sin, and to make mistakes. A person new to Christ, as the parable of the soils depicts, can be uprooted or killed easily because it has no deep root structure (as Simon did not), and so Peter rebuked him to bring him back into righteous living.

 

[Fred]

Verse 19 shows clearly that Simon was not trying to buy God (the Holy Spirit), but was asking to buy the ability to lay hands on people and give them the miraculous working of the Holy Spirit.

Which wouldn't be possible if they didn't have the Holy Spirt Himself.

 

[Doug Brents]

Which wouldn't be possible if they didn't have the Holy Spirt Himself.

There are many examples of people in the OT that had the Holy Spirit, but John 7:39 says that the indwelling of the Spirit did not begin until after Jesus was glorified (at his resurrection). Thus, all the people who "had the Spirit" in the OT had miraculous working of the Spirit but not the indwelling of the Spirit: same Spirit, but different manifestation. So it is completely possible for a person to "have the Spirit" in miraculous power, but not "have the Spirit" indwelling your heart. And it is completely possible for a person to "have the Spirit" indwelling your heart, but not "have the Spirit" in miraculous power.

 

[Fred]

There are many examples of people in the OT that had the Holy Spirit,

Different covenant.

Anyone who has the Spirit in the New Covenant is a Christian.
The saved pray in the Holy Spirit (Jude 19).
The unsaved are devoid of the Holy Spirit (Jude 20).

 

[Doug Brents]

Different covenant.

Anyone who has the Spirit in the New Covenant is a Christian.
The saved pray in the Holy Spirit (Jude 19).
The unsaved are devoid of the Holy Spirit (Jude 20).

It was a different covenant but it goes to show that there is a difference between the indwelling and having the Holy Spirit perform miraculous works through someone. You do not have to have the indwelling to have miraculous power, and you do not have to have miraculous power to have the indwelling. They are different instances of the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Fred]

It was a different covenant but it goes to show that there is a difference between the indwelling and having the Holy Spirit perform miraculous works through someone.

No, it doesn't because in order for the person to perform the works of the Spirit, he/she has to have the Holy Spirit to begin with.

 

[Doug Brents]

No, it doesn't because in order for the person to perform the works of the Spirit, he/she has to have the Holy Spirit to begin with.

In order to exhibit the fruit of the Spirit you must have the indwelling of the Spirit. But to work miracles by the Holy Spirit does not require the indwelling of the Spirit. These are different manifestations of the Holy Spirit, and they are not mutually inclusive.

 

[Fred]

But to work miracles by the Holy Spirit does not require the indwelling of the Spirit.

The above is false.

1 Corinthians 12:20, 28 and 29 teach the working of miracles is for those "in the church" (1 Corinthians 12:28).

You allow the unsaved in what God has announced for the saved.

 

[Doug Brents]

The above is false.

1 Corinthians 12:20, 28 and 29 teach the working of miracles is for those "in the church" (1 Corinthians 12:28).

You allow the unsaved in what God has announced for the saved.

You read exclusivity in 1 Cor 12 that is not there. Yes, the Holy Spirit gives gifts of power and understanding to different people in the Body. But He also gave miraculous gifts, and understanding to people in whom He did not reside. The working of the Holy Spirit is not exclusive to the Body of Christ.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Many hold that to be a temporary filling

And "Many" think the Earth is flat, and that we've never been to the moon. SO much for "Many".

The Holy Spirit INDWELLED the disciples at John 20:22 - which is what made the "Born again Christians" - same as us. When The Holy Spirit indwells us, that's when we're Born again.

Acts 2:4 is the Holy Spirit ON the disciples (who already have the Holy Spirit IN them) for specific ministries. Acts 2:4 is "temporary", John 20:22 is permanent. "Filled with the Holy Spirit" actually means "FULLY MOTIVATED BY the Holy Spirit, and moving in HIS power".

People throughout the Old Testament had the Holy Spirit ON them, even though NONE OF THEM were indwelled by Him. (John 14:17).

 

[TomL]

And "Many" think the Earth is flat, and that we've never been to the moon. SO much for "Many".

The Holy Spirit INDWELLED the disciples at John 20:22 - which is what made the "Born again Christians" - same as us. When The Holy Spirit indwells us, that's when we're Born again.

Acts 2:4 is the Holy Spirit ON the disciples (who already have the Holy Spirit IN them) for specific ministries. Acts 2:4 is "temporary", John 20:22 is permanent. "Filled with the Holy Spirit" actually means "FULLY MOTIVATED BY the Holy Spirit, and moving in HIS power".

People throughout the Old Testament had the Holy Spirit ON them, even though NONE OF THEM were indwelled by Him. (John 14:17).

Most take John 20:22 as a temporary filling of the apostles with the real deal at Act's 2:4 when the Jews had received the Spirit

 

[Fred]

You read exclusivity in 1 Cor 12 that is not there. Yes, the Holy Spirit gives gifts of power and understanding to different people in the Body. But He also gave miraculous gifts, and understanding to people in whom He did not reside.

Nowhere found in the New Covenant,

 

[Doug Brents]

Nowhere found in the New Covenant,

The Holy Spirit added indwelling in the New Covenant, but there is no evidence in the New Covenant that He ceased to operate as He did in the Old Covenant.

 

[Fred]

The Holy Spirit added indwelling in the New Covenant, but there is no evidence in the New Covenant that He ceased to operate as He did in the Old Covenant.

That's for you to prove with passages from the New Covenant.

And you haven't yet because you can't.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Most take John 20:22 as a temporary filling of the apostles with the real deal at Act's 2:4 when the Jews had received the Spirit

And so "Most" are DEAD WRONG (it's the standard cessationist foolishness). The language itself contradicts that: John 20:22 = IN, Acts 2:4 = ON.

 

[TomL]

The Holy Spirit added indwelling in the New Covenant, but there is no evidence in the New Covenant that He ceased to operate as He did in the Old Covenant.

Reception of the Spirit however speaks to the indwelling of the spirit

John 7:38–39 (KJV 1900) — 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

John 14:16–17 (KJV 1900) — 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

 

[Doug Brents]

Reception of the Spirit however speaks to the indwelling of the spirit

John 7:38–39 (KJV 1900) — 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

John 14:16–17 (KJV 1900) — 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

No, it does not. Those two passages, as you said before, speak of the indwelling of the Spirit that was to begin in John 20:22. But they do not invalidate my claim that the indwelling and the miraculous works of the Holy Spirit are two separate manifestations of the Holy Spirit. The Apostles received the indwelling in John 20:33, but they did not receive the permanent miraculous power of the Holy Spirit until Acts 2:4. Cornelius received the miraculous works of the Holy Spirit in Acts 10:44, but did not receive the indwelling of the Spirit until Acts 10:48. The Samaritans in Acts 8 received the indwelling in verse 12 and 13, but did not receive miraculous works until verse 17. These are separate works of the same Spirit, just as
1 Cor 12:4-13 says. "Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6 There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. 7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
12 For just as the body is one and yet has many parts, and all the parts of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit."