Baptism "en" the Holy Ghost

[TomL]

No, it does not. Those two passages, as you said before, speak of the indwelling of the Spirit that was to begin in John 20:22.

Reread

Reception of the Spirit however speaks to the indwelling of the spirit

John 7:38–39 (KJV 1900) — 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Does the verse not speak of receiving the Spirit

Is the living water not flowing out of his belly, i.e. indwelling in him



John 14:16–17 (KJV 1900) — 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.


Does this verse not speak of receiving the Spirit as well

does it not also speak of the Spirit being in them

But they do not invalidate my claim that the indwelling and the miraculous works of the Holy Spirit are two separate manifestations of the Holy Spirit. The Apostles received the indwelling in John 20:33, but they did not receive the permanent miraculous power of the Holy Spirit until Acts 2:4. Cornelius received the miraculous works of the Holy Spirit in Acts 10:44, but did not receive the indwelling of the Spirit until Acts 10:48.

Lets see

Acts 10:44–48 (KJV 1900) — 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

There is nothing mentioned about them receiving the spirit in verse 48. That would have to be eisegetically inserted

They had received the Spirit according to verse 47, the gift of the Holy ghost verse 45

this is in accord with


Acts 2:38 (KJV 1900) — 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

which speaks of baptism which you believe imparts the Spirit, and it uses the phrase the gift of the Holy Spirit which is the same phrase we see in verse 45

 

[Doug Brents]

Reread

Reception of the Spirit however speaks to the indwelling of the spirit

John 7:38–39 (KJV 1900) — 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Does the verse not speak of receiving the Spirit

Is the living water not flowing out of his belly, i.e. indwelling in him

Yes, in this case it is talking about the indwelling of the Spirit, but it is not indicating that every time the Spirit falls on someone that this is also a reference to the indwelling. There are many times where someone "had the Spirit" but not the indwelling.

John 14:16–17 (KJV 1900) — 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.


Does this verse not speak of receiving the Spirit as well

does it not also speak of the Spirit being in them

Yes, again this is talking about the indwelling of the Spirit, but does not indicate that when the Spirit comes on someone that he is necessarily indwelt.

Lets see

Acts 10:44–48 (KJV 1900) — 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

There is nothing mentioned about them receiving the spirit in verse 48. That would have to be eisegetically inserted

They had received the Spirit according to verse 47, the gift of the Holy ghost verse 45

There can be no argument that they were baptized in water in verse 48, and according to Acts 2:38 the reception of the indwelling of the Spirit is a result of water baptism. If they had received forgiveness and the indwelling of the Spirit in verse 44, why did they still require baptism in water? They would not have required water baptism unless the portion of the Spirit that they received in verse 44 was only the miraculous works as a sign to the Jews that God had accepted the Gentiles into the Church. The Spirit coming in verse 44 was not a sign of their salvation, but of their acceptability. And so they were immediately baptized so that they could receive forgiveness of their sins as Acts 2:38 says.

this is in accord with

Acts 2:38 (KJV 1900) — 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

which speaks of baptism which you believe imparts the Spirit, and it uses the phrase the gift of the Holy Spirit which is the same phrase we see in verse 45

Same phrase, but different manifestation of the gift.

 

[TomL]

Yes, in this case it is talking about the indwelling of the Spirit, but it is not indicating that every time the Spirit falls on someone that this is also a reference to the indwelling. There are many times where someone "had the Spirit" but not the indwelling.

The issue was the meaning of the reception of the Spirit. I listed examples where reception speaks of receiving the Spirit himself in indwelling. I did not argue based on the Spirit falling. So you really have not addressed my argument

Note also there is no mention of the Spirit falling in the text either

viz


Reception of the Spirit however speaks to the indwelling of the spirit

John 7:38–39 (KJV 1900) — 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Does the verse not speak of receiving the Spirit

Is the living water not flowing out of his belly, i.e. indwelling in him

Yes, again this is talking about the indwelling of the Spirit, but does not indicate that when the Spirit comes on someone that he is necessarily indwelt.

Again my argument is base on the term receive the Spirit. There is no mention in my argument or the text of the Spirit coming upon

John 14:16–17 (KJV 1900) — 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.


Does this verse not speak of receiving the Spirit as well

does it not also speak of the Spirit being in them

There can be no argument that they were baptized in water in verse 48, and according to Acts 2:38 the reception of the indwelling of the Spirit is a result of water baptism. If they had received forgiveness and the indwelling of the Spirit in verse 44, why did they still require baptism in water? They would not have required water baptism unless the portion of the Spirit that they received in verse 44 was only the miraculous works as a sign to the Jews that God had accepted the Gentiles into the Church. The Spirit coming in verse 44 was not a sign of their salvation, but of their acceptability. And so they were immediately baptized so that they could receive forgiveness of their sins as Acts 2:38 says.

Same phrase, but different manifestation of the gift.

Again it is phrase receiving the Spirit which is the basis of my argument

Acts 10:44–48 (KJV 1900) — 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

They received the Spirit previous to water baptism as per Peter

There is nothing mentioned about them receiving the spirit in verse 48. That would have to be eisegetically inserted

They had received the Spirit according to verse 47, the gift of the Holy ghost verse 45

 

[Doug Brents]

The issue was the meaning of the reception of the Spirit. I listed examples where reception speaks of receiving the Spirit himself in indwelling. I did not argue based on the Spirit falling. So you really have not addressed my argument

Note also there is no mention of the Spirit falling in the text either

viz


Reception of the Spirit however speaks to the indwelling of the spirit

John 7:38–39 (KJV 1900) — 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Does the verse not speak of receiving the Spirit

Is the living water not flowing out of his belly, i.e. indwelling in him



Again my argument is base on the term receive the Spirit. There is no mention in my argument or the text of the Spirit coming upon

John 14:16–17 (KJV 1900) — 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.


Does this verse not speak of receiving the Spirit as well

does it not also speak of the Spirit being in them

This is exactly my point. These passages speak of the Spirit indwelling them (on that we agree), but the mode of delivery is different from what we see in Acts 2:4, Acts 10:44, and similar passages. The indwelling is not a flashy, profound, visible event. It is quiet, internal, and personal. I believe this occurs during baptism.

Again it is phrase receiving the Spirit which is the basis of my argument

Acts 10:44–48 (KJV 1900) — 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

They received the Spirit previous to water baptism as per Peter

There is nothing mentioned about them receiving the spirit in verse 48. That would have to be eisegetically inserted

They had received the Spirit according to verse 47, the gift of the Holy ghost verse 45

They received the Spirit, that is agreed. But what part of the Spirit did they receive. Did they receive the indwelling? I don't believe so. They certainly received the gift of tongues, and of praise. But I do not believe that they received the indwelling, because that is a result of water baptism which they received in verse 48.

Please note, that the Apostles had received the indwelling directly from Jesus back in John 20:22. Then they received the miraculous works of the Spirit in Acts 2:3-4. And here in Acts 10:44 they received the Spirit "just as we did" (in tongues of fire and loud noise, I would presume since that is how the Apostles received Him in Acts 2:3-4).

 

[Fred]

This is exactly my point. These passages speak of the Spirit indwelling them (on that we agree), but the mode of delivery is different from what we see in Acts 2:4, Acts 10:44, and similar passages. The indwelling is not a flashy, profound, visible event. It is quiet, internal, and personal. I believe this occurs during baptism.

They received the Spirit, that is agreed. But what part of the Spirit did they receive. Did they receive the indwelling? I don't believe so.

When they received the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:47) it is the same thing as receiving the Spirit of adoption (Romans 8:15).
That is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10:47
Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?
Romans 8:15
For ye have not received the spirit of slavery again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.



These Gentiles in Acts 10 were sealed with the Holy Spirit and possessed Him as a "down payment."

Acts 15:7-8
And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, who knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as He did unto us.

Ephesians 1:13-14
In whom, ye also, after hearing the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom when ye believed, ye were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise. Who is given as a down payment of our inheritance with a view to the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

No, it doesn't because in order for the person to perform the works of the Spirit, he/she has to have the Holy Spirit to begin with.

Inaccurate.

NOBODY in the Old Testament, and until John 20:22 "had" (was indwelled by) the Holy Spirit. The Holy SPirit, however "Came upon" many Old Testament folks like Elijah, or Samson. Jesus explained in John 14:17 that the Holy Spirit has always been there, but that He WOULD BE in in them, which happened at John 20:22, the effects of which are at Luke 24:45.

SINCE CALVARY, the Holy Spirit indwells Christians (Which is what makes us Christians).

 

[Fred]

Inaccurate.

It was in reference to the New Covenant.

NOBODY in the Old Testament, and until John 20:22 "had" (was indwelled by) the Holy Spirit. The Holy SPirit, however "Came upon" many Old Testament folks like Elijah, or Samson. Jesus explained in John 14:17 that the Holy Spirit has always been there, but that He WOULD BE in in them, which happened at John 20:22, the effects of which are at Luke 24:45.

SINCE CALVARY, the Holy Spirit indwells Christians (Which is what makes us Christians).

When the Lord Jesus said, "Receive the Holy Spirit" (John 20:22) it is to be understood prophetically to what took place in Acts 2:4 because:

a. Thomas was not there when this event took place, but he was there with the others during Pentecost.

b. According to Luke 24:49 the Lord Jesus is "sending" the Holy Spirit to them whereas the second half of the passage points to this taking place at a later date.
Luke 24:49
And, behold, I send the promise of My Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city until ye be clothed with power from on high.

W. E. Vine asserts that what is described in John 20:22 "was symbolic of the Holy Spirit about to be sent in the world, and with the effect of their ministry of the gospel in the forgiveness of sins by the Spirit's power, or the retention of sins by the rejection of the message (vv. 23, 24). It was a prophetic act as well as symbolic" (John: His Record of Christ, page 183).

Wayne Grudem concurs: When Jesus breathed on his disciples and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit" (John 20:22), it probably was an acted-out prophecy about what would happen to them at Pentecost. In the same context - in fact, in the verse immediately preceding - Jesus had told them something that would not happen until Pentecost: "As the Father has sent me, even so I send you" (John 20:21). But even though he said this before he had ascended into heaven, he did not really send them out to preach the gospel until the Day of Pentecost had come. Therefore, his words were looking forward to what would happen a Pentecost. It is best to understand the words in the next sentence, "Receive the Holy Spirit," in the same way - he was speaking in advance of something that would happen on the Day of Pentecost. On that day they would receive the new covenant fullness and power of the Holy Spirit, a much greater empowering of the Holy Spirit than what they had experienced before (Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine, page 769, footnote 13).

 

[Doug Brents]

When they received the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:47) it is the same thing as receiving the Spirit of adoption (Romans 8:15).
That is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10:47
Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?
Romans 8:15
For ye have not received the spirit of slavery again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

The Spirit of adoption is the indwelling of the Spirit, but the miraculous working of the Spirit, which is what they received in verse 44 and had in verse 47 is not the indwelling or the Spirit of adoption.

These Gentiles in Acts 10 were sealed with the Holy Spirit and possessed Him as a "down payment."

Acts 15:7-8
And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, who knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as He did unto us.

Ephesians 1:13-14
In whom, ye also, after hearing the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom when ye believed, ye were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise. Who is given as a down payment of our inheritance with a view to the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory.

Those in Acts 10 (which area also those in Acts 15) were sealed in Acts 10:48, not in verse 44. You are equating an event that has occurred exactly twice in all of history with the event that occurs every time a person is baptized into Christ.

 

[Fred]

The Spirit of adoption is the indwelling of the Spirit, but the miraculous working of the Spirit, which is what they received in verse 44 and had in verse 47 is not the indwelling or the Spirit of adoption.

The miraculous working of the Spirit is for Christians (see 1 Corinthians 12).
No0 New Covenant passage contradicts this.

In your fantasy, maybe, but that is not Scripture.

Those in Acts 10 (which area also those in Acts 15) were sealed in Acts 10:48,

No proof for this.
Just your lousy myth.

You are equating an event that has occurred exactly twice in all of history with the event that occurs every time a person is baptized into Christ.

All Christians have been baptized with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

When the Lord Jesus said, "Receive the Holy Spirit" (John 20:22) it is to be understood prophetically

This is the standard Cessationist line to avoid the possibility that John 20:22, and Acts 2:4 refer to different acts of God.

Arguments rejected.

 

[Fred]

This is the standard Cessationist line to avoid the possibility that John 20:22, and Acts 2:4 refer to different acts of God.

Arguments rejected.

Next time try not dodging the evidence I supplied simply because it refutes your false position.

 

[Doug Brents]

The miraculous working of the Spirit is for Christians (see 1 Corinthians 12).
No0 New Covenant passage contradicts this.

Cornelius was not yet a Christ Follower when the Holy Spirit fell on him in Acts 10:44.

All Christians have been baptized with the Holy Spirit.

When does Scripture say this happens? Acts 2:38 says it happens when we are baptized in water into Christ. 1 Pet 3:21 agrees that it is in baptism in water that we are saved. John 3:5 agrees that it is in being born again through water and the Spirit that we enter the Kingdom.

 

[Fred]

Cornelius was not yet a Christ Follower when the Holy Spirit fell on him in Acts 10:44.

He was as a result of the Holy Spirit falling on him.

When does Scripture say this happens? Acts 2:38

"The gift of the Holy Spirit" mentioned in Acts 2:38 was received (Acts 10:45) before their water baptism (Acts 10:48).

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Next time try not dodging the evidence I supplied simply because it refutes your false position.

You provided no "evidence" - just several opinions of this or that "Theologian".

 

[Doug Brents]

He was as a result of the Holy Spirit falling on him.

That is your opinion, but it is not what Scripture says.

"The gift of the Holy Spirit" mentioned in Acts 2:38 was received (Acts 10:45) before their water baptism (Acts 10:48).

The miraculous working of the Spirit was received by them before their water baptism, but the indwelling of the Spirit (same Spirit but different manifestation) was not received until they were water baptized.

 

[Fred]

You provided no "evidence" - just several opinions of this or that "Theologian".

I quoted Luke 24:49.

Open those eyes!

 

[Fred]

That is your opinion, but it is not what Scripture says.

That is your opinion of your make-believe word definitions.

The miraculous working of the Spirit

Correction: The Holy Spirit Himself which demonstrates they were indwelt by Him.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

I quoted Luke 24:49.

Open those eyes!

"Endued" is and EXTERNAL CLOTHING WITH, not an infilling. my legs are "Endued" with my pants. Different that what happened at John 20:22, when God (Jesus in his glorified form) BREATHED on them, which indicates an "impartation". That Thomas wasn't there is unimportant. I wasn't there either, but I'm indwelled by the Holy Spirit anyway, just like you and ALL Born again Christians.

 

[Fred]

"Endued" is and EXTERNAL CLOTHING WITH, not an infilling.

False, because according to Acts 2:4 they were "filled with the Holy Spirit."

 

[Doug Brents]

Correction: The Holy Spirit Himself which demonstrates they were indwelt by Him.

You associate "the Holy Spirit" with every manifestation of Him. But a person does not have to have wisdom from the Holy Spirit, in order to have knowledge from the Holy Spirit, or faith from the Holy Spirit, or healing from the Spirit, or miracles from the Spirit, or prophecy from the Spirit, or distinguishing spirits, or speaking in tongues, or understanding tongues. The indwelling is just another manifestation of the same Spirit. No one in the OT had the indwelling of the Spirit but many of them had the same Spirit enabling them to do all of the things listed here (from 1 Cor 12:4-11). The Spirit can still do all these signs through people in whom He does not reside (indwell). Just because a person has the Holy Spirit does not mean that they have the Spirit indwelling their heart. They may just have the miraculous signs listed above, which is exactly what Cornelius had until he was baptized in water which is the point at which he was saved, forgiven, and was added to the Body of Christ.