So it's descriptive not prescriptive. Itt simply states God loves the world so He sends His Son to save those trusting in Him right????
Arminian perspective on Gods Sovereignty and mans free will
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Johann
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No mention of the "elect" here.
Other sheep (alla probata). Sheep, not goats, but “not of this fold” (ek tēs aulēs tautēs). See Jhn_10:1 for aulē. Clearly “his flock is not confined to those enclosed in the Jewish fold, whether in Palestine or elsewhere” (Westcott). Christ’s horizon takes in all men of all races and times (Jhn_11:52; Jhn_12:32). The world mission of Christ for all nations is no new idea with him (Mat_8:11; Luk_13:28). God loved the world and gave his Son for the race (Jhn_3:16).
RWP.
John 3:1-2 – Jesus is speaking to Nicodemus, a Pharisee and ruler of the Jews, indicating the conversation initially takes place with a Jewish audience.
John 3:3-7 – Jesus speaks of being "born again" (or "born from above"), which Nicodemus struggles to understand.
John 3:14-15 – The reference to Moses lifting the serpent (Numbers 21:9) is a Jewish typology, implying that just as the Israelites who looked upon the bronze serpent were healed, so too those who believe in Christ will have eternal life.
John 3:16 – The focus shifts from Nicodemus to a broader statement about the "world" (κόσμος), introducing a more universal scope.
2. Meaning of "the World" (ὁ κόσμος) in John 3:16
The term κόσμος in the Johannine writings can have different meanings based on context:
Humanity in general
John 1:29 – "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world." (κόσμος appears to mean all humanity, not just Jews or elect.)
1 John 2:2 – "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
The fallen world system opposed to God
John 15:18-19 – "If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you."
John 17:9 – "I am not praying for the world, but for those whom You have given Me."
The elect within the world
John 6:33 – "For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world." (This life is not given to every individual without exception but to those who believe.)
John 12:32 – "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto Me." ("All men" must be understood in context.)
Who Does John 3:16 Apply To?
John 3:16 does not mean universal salvation but states that whoever believes in Christ will not perish.
The offer is universal, but the benefit is conditional—only "whoever believes" (πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων).
Gentiles are included in this offer:
Acts 10:34-35 – "God is no respecter of persons, but in every nation, the one who fears Him and works righteousness is acceptable to Him."
Romans 10:12 – "For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches to all who call upon Him."
4. Cross-References on Who Receives Eternal Life
Only believers in Christ receive eternal life:
John 3:18 – "He that believes on Him is not condemned: but he that does not believe is condemned already."
John 3:36 – "He that believes on the Son has eternal life; but he that does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."
Jesus' mission included both Jews and Gentiles:
John 10:16 – "I have other sheep that are not of this fold; I must bring them also." (Likely a reference to Gentiles.)
Matthew 28:19 – "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations."
The Jewish expectation was corrected—salvation was not only for Israel:
Romans 9:24 – "Even us, whom He has called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"
Isaiah 49:6 (LXX) – "I will also give you for a light to the Gentiles, that you may be my salvation unto the end of the earth."
Conclusion: Who Are the Recipients?
John 3:16 applies to all who believe in Christ, without distinction between Jews or Gentiles. The offer is extended to the entire world (humanity), but only those who believe receive eternal life. Jesus was initially speaking to a Jewish audience (Nicodemus), but the statement extends beyond Israel to include all nations, as later confirmed in the Great Commission (Matthew 28:19) and Paul's teaching (Romans 10:12-13).
Is this clear enough?
J.
Never said it said anything about the elect.
I will try again. So it's descriptive not peerscriptive?
Johann
Well-known member
Yes, John 3:16 is descriptive rather than prescriptive because it describes what God has done and the resulting consequence for those who trust in Christ.
J.
Eternally-Grateful
Well-known member
but would it not also be prescriptive, As in saying what he said, he was answering Nicodemus' question about HOW one is born again.
"born of water and spirit or born of flesh being flesh and spirit being spirit would be more descriptive in this passsage of what being born again means)
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Johann
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TibiasDad
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TibiasDad
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Calvinism says it in different ways: first that the non-elect are never going to be able because God’s decree prohibits them from believing, and secondly because God will not give them belief.
Doug
civic
Well-known member
Ditto
Amen
God does not prohibit them from believing. As if they want to in the first place.
That is His perogative.
TibiasDad
Well-known member
Yup. In our natural state we have the ability to believe, but lack the desire to believe. Correct me if I am wrong but in your theology God must act first for you to believe right? Or am I mistaken?
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Hi Presby02
I see your point, but I encourage you to realize that there is no difference if we replace "believing" but "wanting to believe", or if we replace "prohibit" by "deny". In both cases, the result is an inmoral, murderous God.
If the proposition is: "God does not prohibit the damned from wanting to believe", and God is the source of any desire to believe, God is denying them the only way to get saved.
Let's see it through this example
- A man trapped under the rubble of a collapsed building will need water to survive and does not have any possibility to get water.
- I have the water that man needs and the thin hose to deliver it to him.
- However, I deny him the water I have. Of course, I'm not prohibiting him to access the water. I'm just denying it.
God revealed Himself with moral atributes that we can understand.
For example, when God says He is just and merciful, He means it. He means it in the way we understand "justice" and "mercy".
What we don't always understand on this earth is how those atributes end up manifesting in the big picture, because we don't have all the information that God has.
For example, if a building collapses during an earthquake killing 20 people, we trust in God's justice and mercy because, in the big picture, those people and their families will be blessed. The dead ones in the afterlife, and their families first learning how to overcome pain, and later on in their own afterlives. Furthermore, mankind will be blessed by triggering their ingenuity to build more resistant buildings, predicting earquakes, setting preventive educational programs, etc.
If we discovered that God sent an earthquake for the pleasure of seeing people suffering, then we would be right to reject such god as a sadist. Who would want to worship and trust a sadist god? Nobody.
So, Calvinists cannot preach a God who is just and merciful "in his own way", because then any demon can claim worship.
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TibiasDad
Well-known member
But that is not what Reform teaching portends: nobody has that capacity to believe until God gives them belief by regeneration. Scripture says that belief produces being born again/from above, but Reform theology reverses this and says being born again by God produces belief/faith.
Desire is produced by presentation of opportunity. There is a lot of desire for “God”, that’s why we have so many different types of religion in the world.
God must always initiate reconciliation. God must act first to create opportunity for us to hear the gospel in order to respond to it.
Before anything good can happen to us, God must first
- Desire to save us
- Plan to save us
- Enact that plan
- Inform us of his desire to save us, of his plan to save us, and tell us how that salvation can be achieved.
- Convince our hearts of the truth about the above events, and urge us to respond positively to all that he has done.
Doug
Exactly. He has no intention of saving them. If He wanted to He would correct?
I believe your imposing your sense of what is just and merciful upon God. Was the Holocaust just and merciful? God could have prevented in any number of ways, yet did not.
They don't because on their natural state they have no desire to believe the gospel. They have the natural ability but lack the moral ability. Hence the need for a new heart, to be made a new creation.
Desire is made by the presentation of opportunity? Who says? You can present me tge opportunity to eat Spinach and I can assure you I will never have the desire to eat it.
Only 4 and 5 I would take issue with.
Nope. Hence it's by grace. "Unmerited favor".
Does God have to provide the opportunity to believe? Universally?
Eternally-Grateful
Well-known member
why would we lack desire to believe. if this is true. no one would come to faith.
Eternally-Grateful
Well-known member
if he has no intention of saving anyone. how can he call himself a God of love (agape)
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