Arminian perspective on Gods Sovereignty and mans free will
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TibiasDad
Well-known member
Judged and saved are in the subjunctive, and mean the Jesus did not come that he might judge, but rather that he might save. Might is not in the sense of maybe yes or maybe no, but that there is now the reality that we can be saved.
Doug
I would say will be saved. "He WILL save His people from their sins."
Your debating about a word not found in John 12:47
Whatever is not of faith is sin. Even if the unbeliever does a good thing it's their motivation for doing so is the problem.
TibiasDad
Well-known member
John 12:47καὶ ἐάν τίς μου ἀκούσῃ τῶν ῥημάτων καὶ μὴ φυλάξῃ, ἐγὼ οὐ κρίνω αὐτόν· οὐ γὰρ ἦλθον ἵνα κρίνω τὸν κόσμον, ἀλλ’ ἵνα σώσω τὸν κόσμον.
Like I said, Aorist, subjuctive, active for judge and save.
Doug
TibiasDad
Well-known member
Motivation doesn’t necessarily mean sin. I may want to do something but refrain from doing it. Would not the motivation to not do it be stronger at that moment.
Doug
Of corse not but God looks upon the heart. The source of your motivation. Would you agree?
Ya and??? Does He save the world or not? We know He saves His people. Matthew 1. His the whole world His people???
TibiasDad
Well-known member
You said that the word “might” was not in John 12:47; I have demonstrated that it is!
I have also demonstrated that “might” does carry with it the meaning of ‘maybe yes, maybe no”. It merely means that Christ has done what needed to be done in order that salvation is actually possible for any person in the world if they believe in what he has done. His people are all in the world who believe.
Doug
No, it's not. See the KJV, ESV, NASV, NIV and so on.
Maybe yes? Maybe no? From whose perspective? Surely not our omniscient God.
TibiasDad
Well-known member
I am relying on the Greek, which I quoted directly. The subjunctive mood does not mean “maybe yes, maybe no”; it means the potential is present for an action to occur. The salvation of the whole world is possible, and those that believe will be saved!
Doug
So did the translators of said versions. I'm sure you know better though.
Again, the potential for the salvation of the world, from our perspective or our omniscient God?
Did God know the number of the elect and their names prior to creation Doug?
brightfame52
Well-known member
The world in Jn 12:47 is the elect, and He did what He came to do regarding it, He saved it
TibiasDad
Well-known member
brightfame52
Well-known member
No its not, its biblical. The World is saved by Christ saving His Elect.
civic
Well-known member
Ditto
TibiasDad
Well-known member
The world is saved by Christ, and those saved become elect, because God chooses to save all who believe.
Doug
TibiasDad
Well-known member
It is the same construction as in John 3:17, and many translations do say “that he might save”. Regardless of the English, the meaning of the Greek subjunctive moon is the potential for something to happen with the expectation that it will happen. Thus, this salvation is provided to all, and all who believe will be saved. The meaning of the Greek is all that matters, for that is the foundation for all theology that follows.
Doug
brightfame52
Well-known member
Error, Salvation is for the elect, they are elect before they obtain it 2 Tim 2:10
10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
John 3:17 is not John 12:47. Again. Doug apparently knows better than the translators who produced the KJV, NIV, NASB, NIV and so on. Will you be informing them of their mistake anytime soon?
