An Article on free will

[Kermos]

@Rockson @civic

No Word of God you cite states man was imparted a free-will to choose toward God, but here is the Word of God which clearly states man does not choose God to any degree!

The gracious Benefactor of us Christians exclusively produces

1. divine choice of we beneficiaries unto salvation, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19)
   AND, Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to the Ephesians “Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him in love” (Ephesians 1:3-4)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 15:16 and John 15:19 state God exclusively chooses us believers by/of/through God
2. beneficiaries’ faith/belief in Lord Jesus, for the Christ of us Christians says (see also a word about belief/faith (Greek πίστις pistis) and believe (Greek πιστεύω pisteuó))
   “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29)
   AND Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for Paul wrote to the Ephesians “by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His work” (Ephesians 2:8-10)
   AND Peter is in accord with Jesus’ words for Peter declared “God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith” (Acts 15:8-9)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 6:29 state for us believers to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent is exclusively by/of/through God
3. beneficiaries’ fruit of the Spirit/righteous actions/good works, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (John 3:21)
   AND Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to the Philippians “being filled with the fruit of righteousness that [is] by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God” (Philippians 1:11)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 3:21 state fruit in we believers is exclusively by/of/through God
4. beneficiaries’ birth by the Holy Spirit, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit” (John 3:5-8)
   AND Peter is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to persons residing as aliens “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 3:5-8 state we believers being born again is exclusively by/of/through God
5. beneficiaries’ repent by God’s working, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (Matthew 11:25)
   AND the apostles and elders are in accord with Jesus’ words with thier saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life” (Acts 11:18)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in Matthew 11:25 state that God exclusively causes man to think differently after an encounter with God (repent means to think differently afterward)
6. beneficiaries’ love by God’s working, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another” (John 13:34)
   AND John is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God” (1 John 4:7, see the phrase “love is from God” meaning God is the source of true love)
   AND John expands with his writing of “God is Love, and the one who abides in Love abides in God, and God abides in him” (1 John 4:16, see the phrase “one who abides in Love” is equivocated with “one who abides” “in God” which extends from God’s exclusivity with “God is Love”)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 13:34 states that the love, true love (John 3:33), the very righteous love, the Godly love within us children of God, this love is exclusively by/of/through God

And here we have the Truth (John 14:6), the love of Christ controls us believers (2 Corinthians 5:14)!

 

[civic]

@Rockson @civic

No Word of God you cite states man was imparted a free-will to choose toward God, but here is the Word of God which clearly states man does not choose God to any degree!

The gracious Benefactor of us Christians exclusively produces

1. divine choice of we beneficiaries unto salvation, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19)
   AND, Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to the Ephesians “Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him in love” (Ephesians 1:3-4)
   

1. 
   Jesus chose the 12 thats the context in John ( I chose you )and Ephesians 1 is the same God chose us ( the apostles ).

 

[civic]

Greetings civic~First, I do not hold to the Tulip.

Calvinism may be accepted in its first three points as scriptural and according to the truth of the gospel as preached by brother Paul.

Man’s nature is totally corrupt since Eden, rendering him without desire or ability to know or please God in any way for salvation. God’s election of some men to eternal life is based purely on the good pleasure of His will in spite of their foreseen evil rebellion. Jesus Christ died only for the elect, and He will not lose a single one of those that the Father gave Him to fully and finally redeem.

However, Calvinism errs with its point of Irresistible Grace, for they apply it to the gospel and conversion, which is farther than truth. They apply irresistible grace, or what they name the “effectual call,” to the preaching of the gospel in the case of all the elect.

They believe that all the elect will hear and believe the gospel sometime during their lives and cannot be saved without these things.

This is sacramental salvation, for unless the “priest” carries the grace of God’s gospel to the elect, they cannot be saved without it.

They must therefore invent all sorts of alternative theories to cover the salvation of infants, idiots, heathen, the deaf and blind, etc.

Of course, they rarely define what they mean by “saving faith,” or they would make it to loose, or limit the elect to just a very few.

The typical Calvinist, even John Calvin and Jonathan Edwards, seldom differentiate clearly between regeneration and conversion.

God’s grace is definitely irresistible when it comes to regeneration, but conversion by the gospel depends on preacher and hearer.

The first of the acts is God’s work in salvation, and the second is the information and news concerning it for the comfort of the elect. Ministers must make war with their hearers, for conversion is and always has been a struggle against the resistance of the saints.

Again, Calvinism errs with its point of Final Perseverance, for they end up with a fatalist doctrine of men incapable of backsliding.

Persevering is man’s action. If God guarantees man’s perseverance, then he will continue in faith and good works without fail. This fatalistic doctrine, if logically followed, would render the New Testament epistles and the work of the ministry unnecessary.

If by final perseverance the Calvinist means God will not lose any of His elect, then why not call it preservation like the Bible?

God will preserve His saints so that not one will be lost and all make it safely to heaven, but He has not guaranteed their faithfulness.

This should also answer your question: "If there are both elect/ saved Calvinists and non Calvinists and everything is determined by God even our faith and doctrine"~God has not determine our faithfulness~that's fatalistic! Our salvation from sin and condemnation is determined by God, but not our faithfulness!

Thanks for clarifying your position on TULIP.

 

[Red Baker]

Sorry RB but your way you reason things out is unsound. So you claim you're against things that are fatalistic but you somehow believe you can make it seem like you can believe your salvation is ordained but also claim that's not fatalistic? Sorry again but you're all over the map.

Rockson, I'm sure it is strange to your ears~but it is the truth, you need to ponder it more before saying RB, you are crazy, much learning has made you mad....... I have heard that before.

If you give more thought (using God's word as your guide, not me) you may even see why they are divisions even among true believers, since actually both sides have good argument using sound bites and neither side are not listening to the scriptures.

We have eternal life and that gift was secured by Jesus Christ for us~but, he did not secured our faithfulness, which brings God's best for us while living in this world and saves us from his chastisement and the hardship that we bring upon ourselves by not heeding God word.

King David is a prime example of what I'm saying,and there's more if you want me to enlarge upon this.

The sword never left David's house, for his sin against Uriah the Hittite. Yet, David was loved by God until the very end, as a matter of truth, God's love cannot change~he cannot love us more, or less, ever, since his love for us his based upon what Jesus did for us. He can be pleased, or displeased toward us according to our faithfulness, and reward us accordingly, or chastise us when we need it, which is often~less as we get older, I would think.

 

[Rockson]

Rockson, I'm sure it is strange to your ears~but it is the truth, you need to ponder it more before saying RB, you are crazy, much learning has made you mad....... I have heard that before.

Please don't quote that colloquial expression and suggest I said that to you.

 

[Bobby Walker]

Learning cannot make you crazy. Mental illness is a chemical imbalance in your brain. You can become emotionally imbalanced by how you react to things that happen in your life. But to be diagnosed as crazy means that you don't know right from wrong. So RB You can't use an insanity defense.

 

[Kermos]

1. Jesus chose the 12 thats the context in John ( I chose you )and Ephesians 1 is the same God chose us ( the apostles ).

You, civic, cannot understand John 15:16 and John 15:19 unless you can first perceive KING JESUS OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD who declares "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God." (John 3:3), and God causes me to prove this fact right now.

At the time of Lord Jesus says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation), there were 11 apostles present, not 12 as per your deception "Jesus chose the 12 thats the context in John ( I chose you )and Ephesians 1 is the same God chose us ( the apostles )" because Judas Iscariot had departed (John 13:21-30) prior to the wonderful Word of God saying “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) to all of us Christians in all time.

You miss the mark on far more than just the number of apostles, there.

If you say that that your "I chose to believe in Jesus" precedes being born of God, then you deny Lord Jesus Christ who clearly states "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God." (John 3:3).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE GIVER OF LIFE!!!

 

[civic]

You, civic, cannot understand John 15:16 and John 15:19 unless you can first perceive KING JESUS OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD who declares "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God." (John 3:3), and God causes me to prove this fact right now.

At the time of Lord Jesus says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation), there were 11 apostles present, not 12 as per your deception "Jesus chose the 12 thats the context in John ( I chose you )and Ephesians 1 is the same God chose us ( the apostles )" because Judas Iscariot had departed (John 13:21-30) prior to the wonderful Word of God saying “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) to all of us Christians in all time.

You miss the mark on far more than just the number of apostles, there.

If you say that that your "I chose to believe in Jesus" precedes being born of God, then you deny Lord Jesus Christ who clearly states "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God." (John 3:3).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE GIVER OF LIFE!!!

Jesus chose Judas as one of the 12 disciples. Why would you deny that ?

 

[Frank]

Learning cannot make you crazy. Mental illness is a chemical imbalance in your brain. You can become emotionally imbalanced by how you react to things that happen in your life. But to be diagnosed as crazy means that you don't know right from wrong. So RB You can't use an insanity defense.

What about..."the devil made me do it"?

The devil made me do it defense​

The “Devil Made Me Do It” defense, also known as the “Demon Possession Defense,” is a legal strategy that claims that a defendant’s actions were the result of demonic possession or influence, rather than their own free will. This defense has been used in various historical and contemporary cases, often with controversial results.

Historical Context
In the 17th and 18th centuries, the “Devil Made Me Do It” defense was used in witchcraft trials in Europe and the American colonies. Accused witches would claim that they were possessed by the devil and forced to commit evil acts, rather than being responsible for their actions. This defense was often used in conjunction with other forms of evidence, such as “spectral evidence” (testimony about dreams or visions) and “touching tests” (examinations of the accused’s body for signs of witchcraft).

Contemporary Cases
In the 1980s, the “Devil Made Me Do It” defense was used in a high-profile case in Connecticut. Arne Cheyenne Johnson, a 19-year-old man, was accused of murdering his landlord, Edward Glatzel. Johnson’s defense attorney, Martin J. Minnella, claimed that Johnson was possessed by demons and was therefore not responsible for his actions. The defense was based on the testimony of paranormal investigators Ed and Lorraine Warren, who claimed that they had investigated the case and found evidence of demonic activity.

The “Conjuring” Movies
The “Devil Made Me Do It” defense has also been featured in the popular horror movie franchise “The Conjuring.” The third installment, “The Conjuring: The Devil Made Me Do It,” is based on the true story of Arne Johnson’s case and explores the themes of demonic possession and the “Devil Made Me Do It” defense.

Criticisms and Controversies
The “Devil Made Me Do It” defense has been criticized for being a form of “cop-out” or “excuse-making,” as it allows defendants to avoid taking responsibility for their actions. Some have also argued that the defense is based on superstition and lacks scientific evidence.
In conclusion, the “Devil Made Me Do It” defense is a controversial legal strategy that has been used in both historical and contemporary cases. While it has been used to defend against serious crimes, it has also been criticized for its lack of scientific basis and its potential to undermine the concept of personal responsibility.
AI Generated

 

[synergy]

The context does not support your twisted meaning of Jesus' words.

All Jesus called came unto him, he was very selective in whom he called.

Need help with these wonderful scriptures? Probably not, you rather continue seeking sound bites to support your work gospel. God has put plenty of them in His word for people like you! https://letgodbetrue.com/sermons/index/year-2002/is-god-the-author-of-confusion/

God justly blinds and confuses men, even by the scriptures themselves, when they do not approach Him rightly.​

Read Mark 1:14-20 again. Jesus chose to preach to the entire city of Galilee to Repent and Believe. That means everyone in Galilee far and wide. Do you understand English grammar?

As for Simon and Andrew, they were obviously selected specifically for Discipleship/Apostleship which you claim for yourself, O Great Apostle. Tell us more about of your great Apostle mission.

 

[synergy]

You, civic, cannot understand John 3:5 unless you can first perceive KING JESUS OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD who declares "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God." (John 3:3).

If you say that that your "I chose to believe in Jesus" precedes being born of God, then you deny Lord Jesus Christ who clearly states "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God." (John 3:3).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE GIVER OF LIFE!!!

First of all, I am not civic although I agree with much of what he writes. If regeneration precedes belief then you believe that a regenerated (alive) but unbelieving (dead in sins) state can exist - however brief or long in time. In other words, you are then a living dead person. That Calvinist belief always reminds me of the Night of the Living Dead movies.

Second of all, you continue to exhibit very poor grammar comprehension. If water = Spirit then John 3:5 becomes unless one is born of water Spirit and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God according to the Gospel of Kermos. Very poor grammar comprehension on your part.

(John 3:5) Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

 

[Kermos]

Jesus chose Judas as one of the 12 disciples. Why would you deny that ?

You wrote there were 12 apostles present when Lord Jesus beautifully says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) to all of us Christians in all time, so you deceived because only 11 apostles were present thus you demonstrated your misunderstanding.

You, civic, cannot understand John 15:16 and John 15:19 unless you can first perceive KING JESUS OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD who declares "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God." (John 3:3), and God causes me to prove this fact right now.

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!!!

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Not sure what the issue is, since I've got some people on ignore. But Jesus chose Judas to betray Him. Having chosen Judas doesn't mean Jesus chose Judas for salvation.

 

[civic]

You wrote there were 12 apostles present when Lord Jesus beautifully says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) to all of us Christians in all time, so you deceived because only 11 apostles were present thus you demonstrated your misunderstanding.

You, civic, cannot understand John 15:16 and John 15:19 unless you can first perceive KING JESUS OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD who declares "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God." (John 3:3), and God causes me to prove this fact right now.

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!!!

The fact is the promise was made the the disciple's He was speaking to in John 15. You are making a mountain out of a mole hill with judas because I referenced the disciples with Jesus as the 12. The promise was to the disciple not you.

BTW the disciples in John 15 were not born again- another knife in your coffin.

next

 

[civic]

Not sure what the issue is, since I've got some people on ignore. But Jesus chose Judas to betray Him. Having chosen Judas doesn't mean Jesus chose Judas for salvation.

Jesus chose judas to be one of His 12 disciples period. He chose him just like the others. Judas was one of the 12 elect/chosen sheep/disciples who healed, performed miracles by the same Holy Spirit as the others.

next

 

[praise_yeshua]

You wrote there were 12 apostles present when Lord Jesus beautifully says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) to all of us Christians in all time, so you deceived because only 11 apostles were present thus you demonstrated your misunderstanding.

You, civic, cannot understand John 15:16 and John 15:19 unless you can first perceive KING JESUS OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD who declares "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God." (John 3:3), and God causes me to prove this fact right now.

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!!!

"Chosen" in Calvinism is a "loaded" theological reference.

Chosen doesn't often indicate absolute uniqueness in the Scriptures. Chosen does always indicate power. The power to save is always of God.

 

[Red Baker]

John 3:1-8~"There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

Here's one of the promise post that I promised to do. I'm going to cut it down somewhat from my last post on these scriptures for sake of time.

There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Nicodemus coming to Jesus by night means very little as to why he did, that's not the purpose of this discourse recorded for us to learn.
Being a ruler of the Jews does carry some weight, and it is this~This man's spirit was much different than the other Pharisees members of the Sanhedrin~who were the supreme council and tribunal of the Jews during postexilic times headed by a High Priest and having religious, civil, and criminal jurisdiction.

John 7:47-51~"Then answered them the Pharisees, Are ye also deceived? Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on him? But this people who knoweth not the law are cursed. Nicodemus saith unto them, (he that came to Jesus by night, being one of them,) Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth?"

This man's spirit was totally different from other ruling Pharisees, and we know this by what he said to Jesus.
Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
The testimony of Nicodemus is a solid and humble as any man on this forum, or any man in any professing church of Jesus Christ.

We KNOW that those art a teacher come from God! The rest of the ruling Pharisees said thsi to our Lord:

John 8:48​

“Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?”

Nicodemus did not beleive as they believed, but gave a sincere and humble confession that Jesus was from God ~ for he confessed that NO MAN can do the miracles that Jesus did except God be with him! Amen to Nicodemus' confession, even though his understanding was pitiful when overall considered., as we shall see.

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
How plain is this to those who having hearing ears and a seeing spiritual eye!
Based upon Nicodemus' confession Jesus said these words to him. (the flow of the discourse is very important to follow) Nicodemus saw the truth concerning Jesus sent from God to preach and perform miracles~~He addressed Jesus as Rabbi~teacher, the true teacher sent from God, and Jesus said to him....Except a man be born again, he cannot see.....basically Jesus said to Nicodemus by the fact you see who I'am, proves that you are born again, for only those born of God can see. Jesus used the words born again and we know that by what Nicodemus said back to him. (CONTEXT WILL DRIVE THE TRUE MEANING OF WHAT IS BEING SAID)
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enterthe second time into his mother's womb, and be born.

Nicodemus knowledge is pitiful indeed, but so is every babe in Christ.

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Based upon Nicodemus' question, Jesus said these words to him~Except a man be born of water...which is our first birth from our mother's womb...if Nicodemus had not mentioned entering into his mother's womb, then our Lord would have never mention water...never! This can be seen by the fact Jesus never mentioned water again when explaining the new birth to Nicodemus.
"of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." The New birth is a birth by the Spirit of God alone apart from all means whatsoever. Seeing the Kingdom of God and entering therein are one and the same. When on eis born again they are translated into God's kingdom.

Colossians 1:12,13~"Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Our first birth from our mother's womb is flesh, which in the scriptures is sinful, and at enmity against God~our second birth is by the Spirit of the Living God, which makes us now having the mind of Christ, able to see and hear the teachings of the Spirit of God~but, not until then!

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

This humble man was listening to the Master, and no doubt was marveling at his words, yet never disagreed with him.
Jesus explained to him how this new birth takes place. Our Lord compared it to the wind~unseen, yet can see the effects of it, so is everyone born of the Spirit. The new birth can take place while we are totally unaware of it~when we are sleeping, working, dying, persecuting Christians, speaking evil of Christians, even while one is having sex with his spouse~after all, all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of God, nothing is hid from him, nothing. Man is totally passive and God is the only active person working, he comes and goes wherever he pleaseth and upon whoever he pleaseth! God does not need us in a certain frame of mind~he regenerates SINNER who are flesh and are at enmity against him.
Much more could be said, but I will add this~Nicodemus was a child of God coming to Jesus, yet his conversion to the truth was slow coming, but it came, to what degree we will never know, only it came!

John 19:38,39~"And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus. And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight."

Nicodemus is why I'm very, very, slow judging others who do not follow me, yet shows fruits of the Spirit of God in their life

I went fast, so forgive my poor English and writing skills.

 

[Kermos]

The fact is the promise was made the the disciple's He was speaking to in John 15. You are making a mountain out of a mole hill with judas because I referenced the disciples with Jesus as the 12. The promise was to the disciple not you.

BTW the disciples in John 15 were not born again- another knife in your coffin.

next

You failed to understand King Jesus of the Kingdom of God, and you self-willed discounted your own misunderstanding which proves that you, civic, cannot understand John 15:16 and John 15:19 unless you can first perceive KING JESUS OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD who declares "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God." (John 3:3), and God causes me to prove this fact right now.

You deceived about the number of apostles with Lord Jesus at the time of Lord Jesus says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation), and now you deceive about the number of apostles present (you switched to the word disciples but I'll keep it apostles to maintain consistency). You add to then you subtract from Lord Jesus Christ's audience. The Apostle John includes every Christian in all time respecting these blessed sayings of Christ because John wrote the book for us Christians (John 20:30-31).

You convey that Jesus was exclusively speaking to the apostles respecting John 15:16-19, but your conveyance is false because Joseph and Matthias were in the audience when Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

The Apostle Peter when Peter said:

Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.' So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias.
(Acts 1:21-23)
​

In the upper room occupied by Jesus' disciples who put forward Matthias and Joseph were Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James (Acts 1:13), and these disciples recognized Matthias and Joseph as disciples that were with them from the beginning, and not a single disciple contradicted Peter's prounouncement of "men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us".

Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more people beyond the Apostles for a minimum total of 13 disciples who are specifically identified at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17; therefore, Lord Jesus Christ's "you" in John 15:16 and John 15:19 extends well beyond the Apostles, in Truth (John 14:6)!

The apostles born of God state of being at the time does not impact Jesus' sayings “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation),

Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!!!

 

[civic]

You failed to understand King Jesus of the Kingdom of God, and you self-willed discounted your own misunderstanding which proves that you, civic, cannot understand John 15:16 and John 15:19 unless you can first perceive KING JESUS OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD who declares "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God." (John 3:3), and God causes me to prove this fact right now.

You deceived about the number of apostles with Lord Jesus at the time of Lord Jesus says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation), and now you deceive about the number of apostles present (you switched to the word disciples but I'll keep it apostles to maintain consistency). You add to then you subtract from Lord Jesus Christ's audience. The Apostle John includes every Christian in all time respecting these blessed sayings of Christ because John wrote the book for us Christians (John 20:30-31).

You convey that Jesus was exclusively speaking to the apostles respecting John 15:16-19, but your conveyance is false because Joseph and Matthias were in the audience when Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

The Apostle Peter when Peter said:

​

Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.' So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias.​

(Acts 1:21-23)​

​

In the upper room occupied by Jesus' disciples who put forward Matthias and Joseph were Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James (Acts 1:13), and these disciples recognized Matthias and Joseph as disciples that were with them from the beginning, and not a single disciple contradicted Peter's prounouncement of "men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us".

Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more people beyond the Apostles for a minimum total of 13 disciples who are specifically identified at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17; therefore, Lord Jesus Christ's "you" in John 15:16 and John 15:19 extends well beyond the Apostles, in Truth (John 14:6)!

The apostles born of God state of being at the time does not impact Jesus' sayings “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation),

Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!!!

No one was born again until Pentecost. You have bought into the traditions of men over scripture.

Truth prevails .

Praise Jesus

 

[Kermos]

No one was born again until Pentecost. You have bought into the traditions of men over scripture.

Truth prevails .

Praise Jesus

Read it again, civic, as I am not talking about the apostles being born of God, but rather God's Sovereignty in choosing people for salvation. Keep on track, man.

The fact is the promise was made the the disciple's He was speaking to in John 15. You are making a mountain out of a mole hill with judas because I referenced the disciples with Jesus as the 12. The promise was to the disciple not you.

BTW the disciples in John 15 were not born again- another knife in your coffin.

next

You failed to understand King Jesus of the Kingdom of God, and you self-willed discounted your own misunderstanding which proves that you, civic, cannot understand John 15:16 and John 15:19 unless you can first perceive KING JESUS OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD who declares "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God." (John 3:3), and God causes me to prove this fact right now.

You deceived about the number of apostles with Lord Jesus at the time of Lord Jesus says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation), and now you deceive about the number of apostles present (you switched to the word disciples but I'll keep it apostles to maintain consistency). You add to then you subtract from Lord Jesus Christ's audience. The Apostle John includes every Christian in all time respecting these blessed sayings of Christ because John wrote the book for us Christians (John 20:30-31).

You convey that Jesus was exclusively speaking to the apostles respecting John 15:16-19, but your conveyance is false because Joseph and Matthias were in the audience when Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

The Apostle Peter when Peter said:

Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.' So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias.
(Acts 1:21-23)
​

In the upper room occupied by Jesus' disciples who put forward Matthias and Joseph were Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James (Acts 1:13), and these disciples recognized Matthias and Joseph as disciples that were with them from the beginning, and not a single disciple contradicted Peter's prounouncement of "men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us".

Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more people beyond the Apostles for a minimum total of 13 disciples who are specifically identified at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17; therefore, Lord Jesus Christ's "you" in John 15:16 and John 15:19 extends well beyond the Apostles, in Truth (John 14:6)!

The apostles born of God state of being at the time does not impact Jesus' sayings “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation),

Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!!!