Rockson
Well-known member
Yeah I believe God wants, longs and yearns for each one of humanity to be saved. Calvinist's theology claims this isn't true. Can one see how grieving is must be for God to see this?
An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
You are so full of beans~speaking as nice as possible~but men like you push good men to their limits.
I do not know much about @Kermos, but what little I do know, he dead on this one truth, that regeneration must precede......spiritual/godly action/fruits, on the sinners part~To believe otherwise is to manufacture another gospel, which truly is not another gospel but one from the devil himself. Which gospel falls under the curse of Almighty God, per Paul from Galatians one, where he does not mince his words and neither shall we, by the help of The Author of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
I'm not here to defend a man, be that man be John Calvin, Martin Luther, Jonathan Edwards, or Kermos, or even my own self. True saints glory in the cross of Jesus Christ.
Men who add to what Jesus Christ secured for his elect are liars and thieves of the worst kind and shall be punished accordingly, unless God shows mercy to them, as he did to Paul, and all of us who glory in Christ alone and not in our works of the flesh, be whatever those works may be~faith, repentance, baptism, etc., etc.
Sinners are without spiritual strength to perfectly perform any works of the flesh perfectly, which the law of God demands ~ slip in thought, word, or deed, then one is guilty of all and deserves to perish in the lake of fire.
The only faith that God will accept in obedience to his Law is Jesus Christ's perfect faith, certainly not the sinner's. Even the best of God children in their most holy moments have sin mixed in whatever they are doing....... be it praying, teachings, witnessing for Christ,, all saints have sin in the members seeking to show itself at the right moment in a deceitful manner, unnoticed by their fallen man, at least they think so! Selah.
The word of God is a spiritual puzzle, our job is to make each piece fit into the place God ordained them to fit and only then can we know we have the truth God intended for his word to teach His children~men like you have no clue how to put the pieces of this wonder spiritual God honouring puzzle together~ many of you are like one of my grandson, (who now is a preparing to be a Neurosurgeon) who years ago, was attempting to put a John Deere tractor puzzle together that I had gotten for him~he was almost finished and came to having just a few pieces left and had one piece that he thought went into certain place, but he just could not make it fit, so he stood up jacked his leg into the air and slam the the piece into where he though it had to go. I said, Luke, that's not how you do the puzzle~yet men do the word of God the same way! They forced their will into certain scriptures where they just do not fit, so they never get the true overall puzzle in sight to where they know exactly what is truth and what is not truth.
Your problem, you do not know how to do God's puzzle because he has (as of yet) not given you the ability to do so.
Last edited:
The Word of God pronounces "he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21), so the Holy God declares that any good work of a Christian is in a manner of speaking, forged by God.
The English words in John 3:3 are an accurate representation of the Greek words in John 3:3, so it sounds to me like your heart eliminates the words in John 3:3.
Lord Jesus Christ pronounces "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God." (John 3:3), so you cannot believe in King Jesus of the Kingdom of God whom you cannot perceive, and this is Lord Jesus Christ's message before he starts talking about entering the Kingdom of God.
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE GOD OF GRACE!!!
Your thoughts/questions remain unfocused and are not founded in the Word of God since Christ didn't say anything about one perceiving "better" than another, but Christ focuses on one righteously perceiving the Kingdom of God by being born of God, period.
This is your second post to me that is devoid of the Word of God yet replete with the thoughts of civic. The Word of God which God causes me to focus on here is "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God." (John 3:3) which means that you cannot believe in King Jesus of the Kingdom of God whom you cannot perceive, and this is Lord Jesus Christ's message before he starts talking about entering the Kingdom of God.
Ultimately, your heart's treasure is the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9) in opposition to the rescuing Love of God. Your adulteration of the Holy Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The tradition of man | The Word of God | |
| Truly, truly, I say to you, before one is born again he can see the Kingdom of God (civic 3:3) | Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God. (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3) |
A word about your thoughts. It is written, "'For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,' declares the LORD. 'For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.'" (Isaiah 55:8-9).
A word about adding to scripture as you have done. It is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6), and the above explanation of your thoughts shows where you added to scripture.
Of the new Jerusalem, the Apostle John wrote "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:27) - notice that no one who practices lying gets in, and a human adding to scripture is the human lying.
Your free will assertion is referring to man attempting to override God's thoughts with man's thoughts, and that is evil.
Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE GRAND CREATOR!!!
Rockson
Well-known member
You've been rightly shown from the Greek that "see" horao also can be rendered EXPERIENCE the Kingdom . You've also been told by an analogy that one can envision at least what it means to be in a stadium watching a sport event but not truly experience what is taking place in that Kingdom--Stadium. You want to make it seem and insist that the sinner can't even understand the concept of a Kingdom. Sorry but just nonsense.
Along with being able to choose comes the ability to reject. I reject Calvinism. But the ability to choose God is quite interesting.
In the Bible, there are more than 200 references to the word “choose” or one of its variations.
As simple as it sounds, one of the greatest proofs of God’s existence is the ability to choose. Materialistic God-deniers hypothesize that all of our actions can be attributed to random interactions of the chemicals, atoms, and molecules that make up our physical bodies. However, they are unable to explain how such random interactions lead to our ability to make all kinds of decisions in life.
Little wonder why when God created man in His image, He put Adam and Eve in a position where they, like God who chose to become flesh in the form of Jesus Christ, had the ability to choose. We are all familiar with the story of how they made a poor choice in eating the forbidden fruit for which God held them both accountable. Think about it! Would God have held Adam and Eve accountable for their poor choice if their actions were the result of random chemical interactions!
Personally, I believe that a desire to avoid accountability is a major reason many people are drawn to a materialistic-atheistic world view. Furthermore, they don’t understand that God created and designed us to make choices.
In the Bible, there are more than 200 references to the word “choose” or one of its variations. This makes it possible for God to fulfill His role as the Supreme Judge of the universe as illustrated in Deuteronomy 30:19 and yet give us freedom to make decisions: “I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you today that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Choose life so that you and your descendants may live…”
Later, in a New Testament passage, the author of Hebrews warns: “Make sure that you do not reject the One who speaks. For if they did not escape when they rejected Him who warned them on earth, even less will we if we turn away from Him who warns us from heaven” (Hebrews 12:25).
We must also remember that because we have the ability and freedom to choose, our actions have consequences. In my commentary in Principle #21, page 1724 in my Life Essentials Study Bible, I establish a bridge between the Old and New Testament applications of this truth:
The author then reminded them of God’s holy presence at Mount Sinai when the old covenant was revealed. It was a terrifying experience (Exodus 19:9-16; 20:18). How much more dreadful the situation for all unbelievers who someday will be judged severely for rejecting the Messiah… However, the good news is that we can spend eternity with God, not because of our good works but because we have received God’s free gift of salvation.
Truly, the choices we make-especially those that are spiritual and moral in nature — serve as reminders that we are made in God’s image.
The Ability To Choose
As simple as it sounds, one of the greatest proofs of God’s existence is the ability to choose. Materialistic God-deniers hypothesize that all of our actions can be attributed to random interactions of the chemicals, atoms, and molecules that make up our physical bodies. However, they are unable...bibleprinciples.org
Not one Holy Scripture containing the word "choose" in the Bible states that God imparted man with the ability to choose toward God, but the One True God explicitly declares man's inability to choose God with:
- "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
- "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
- "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.
Let’s look at 2 of your quotations, there, Believe, which you preach as proof that God imparted man with the ability to choose God:
| The word of User 253 | The Word of God | |
| I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose God in order that you may live since God gave you the ability to choose God, you and your descendants (User 253 30:19) | I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants (Deuteronomy 30:19) |
Now, for a New Testament passage that you presented:
| The traditions of men | The Love of God | |
| See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking by you choosing Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven. (User 253's 12:25) | See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven. (Hebrews 12:25) |
The Word of God pronounces "he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21), so the Holy God declares that any good work of a Christian is in a manner of speaking, forged by God, and this includes believing in Jesus whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).
Lord Jesus Christ pronounces "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God." (John 3:3), so you cannot choose King Jesus of the Kingdom of God whom you cannot perceive.
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE GOD OF GRACE!!!
Believe
Active member
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. Joshua 24:15
More on what the Bible says about choosing.
More on what the Bible says about choosing.
You have been rightly shown that the experience concept insufficiently defines Lord Jesus Christ's use of the Greek word ἰδεῖν (Strong's 3708 - ὁράω (horaó) - to see, perceive, attend to), so your heart isolates ἰδεῖν/see conceptually to eliminate the function of perceive from the wonderful Word of God "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God." (John 3:3).
In fact, your position is hypocritical because post #2,719 illumines where you are shown to use the word sight/see to indicate perceive while at the same time you deny Jesus using the word see to indicate perceive.
King Jesus declares you cannot believe in King Jesus of the Kingdom of God whom you cannot perceive, and this is Lord Jesus Christ's message before he starts talking about entering the Kingdom of God.
Your heart makes false statements about God. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE RISEN KING JESUS!!!
Rockson
Well-known member
Sorry but you wrongly tried to demonstrate that I was wrong.
My argument has always been the same. One can understand, and comprehend the concept of the Kingdom of God after Jesus taught on it but such doesn't mean they experience LIFE in the actual Kingdom. What's so hard to understand about this?
Also I just checked 2718. So tell me what's in it which has led you to say what you say?
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. Joshua 24:15
More on what the Bible says about choosing.
The whole of Holy Scripture sings the sweet song of the Sovereignty of God "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), and we Christians live in Christ's rescue of us from the wrath of God, but your heart desperately nullifies this precious Word of God.
No portion of Joshua 24:15 mentions God imparting man the ability to choose toward God, unless you are using the faulty book of Free-willians 24:15 as shown in the following paragraph.
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The tradition of man | The Word of God | |
| If it is evil in your sight to choose to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living, or the LORD by the ability God gave you to choose the One True God; but as for me and my house, we choose to serve the LORD. (User 253's 24:15) | If it is evil in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. (Joshua 24:15) |
The only way for free-willian philosophers to acheive free-will is for them to add to the Word of God, and it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).
If you believe Jesus "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), then you would cease and desist writing against the Sovereignty of God.
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE SOVEREIGN JESUS!!!
Rockson
Well-known member
Problem is though Kermos, Calvinists don't sing the sweet song of God's Sovereignty. What they sing is not in the right key and out of tune from scripture.
Believe
Active member
It's just your opinion nothing more. Calvinism has you deceived. It's darkened in your mind. You twist the scriptures to fit your false doctrine.
This verse in John 15 comes at the end of the great discourse on the vine and the branches. Jesus has urged his disciples to remain in Him because that is the way we are designed to bear fruit. Jesus says that the disciples were chosen by him and for a purpose. That purpose was to serve. The verse is not talking about salvation.
Salvation is the result of believers sharing the gospel to unbelievers. If they believe the message then they are saved by grace through faith. They make that choice whether to believe in Jesus or not to believe.
Calvinists wrongly claim that this text contains an irrefutable affirmation that Unconditional Election to eternal life is by God’s sovereign choice alone.
Jesus Himself clearly states what His choice entails. The problems in understanding this verse arise when only the first half is quoted. If we allow Jesus to finish His sentence, we see that He explains why He chose those whom He did. He chose He chose them so “that you should go and bear fruit” (John 15:16).
The sovereign choice of Jesus in John 15:16 is not a choice of some out of the mass of humanity to receive eternal life, but rather, the choice of some out of all His followers and disciples to have a deeper fellowship with Him so that they might serve Him and become more productive followers.
God has given free will to humans, and we will be held accountable for our choices. He chose Judas as one of the 12 and Judas chose to betray him.
Believe
Active member
Calvinism is tone Deaf. They March to the beat of a different gospel. They're like clanging cymbal. They have a choice to be set free but they just won't take it.
One cannot "understand, and comprehend the concept of the Kingdom of God" unless one is born of God because King Jesus of the Kingdom of God declares "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God." (John 3:3). You are the embodiment of misunderstanding that Lord Jesus Christ's use of the Greek word ἰδεῖν (Strong's 3708 - ὁράω (horaó) - to see, perceive, attend to) is much richer than merely "experience" reaching into the merely human unfathomable depth of "perceive".
In your writing, your heart is recorded as linguistically invalidating "perceive" from the Word of God's use of see, yet post #2,719 recorded your heart's writing (in blue):
Rockson, you wrote "I'd suggest you're off the rails by insisting such and very short sighted" in which you use the word "sighted" in the connotation for perception.
King Jesus declares you cannot believe in King Jesus of the Kingdom of God whom you cannot perceive (John 3:3), and this is Lord Jesus Christ's message before he starts talking about entering the Kingdom of God (John 3:5-8).
Your heart makes false statements about God. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE RISEN KING JESUS!!!
Gatekeeper
Member
What does Matthew 15:9 mean?
In response to criticism that He does not honor their manmade traditions, Jesus has boldly declared a group of scribes and Pharisees as hypocrites. This would not have been the reaction they expected when they came from Jerusalem to confront Jesus about the behavior of His disciples (Matthew 15:4–8).Jesus is quoting a passage they likely know quite well: Isaiah 29:13. It contains words the Lord said to Isaiah about the Israelites of that generation. This exchange with Jesus reveals that the words of Isaiah's prophecy apply to Israel's current religious leaders, as well. The hearts of the Israelites in Isaiah's day were far from God, despite honoring the Lord with their words.
Now Jesus completes the quote by declaring that their worship of God is useless: it is ineffective and pointless. This is because they are teaching their own preferences, their traditions, as if they were the doctrines given by God.
This accusation from Jesus is impossible to dodge: the last part of the quote from Isaiah is exactly why Pharisees had come. They were attacking Jesus and His followers for ignoring their traditional, manmade, ritual version of handwashing before meals. This was never commanded by God in Scripture. It was one of the "commandments of men," and Jesus treated it that way, revealing the Pharisees' hypocrisy.
BibleRef.
It has nothing to do with making a free will decision to follow Jesus and accept him as lord and savior. Calvinism on the other hand it's just like the Pharisees With their man-made traditions.
Rockson
Well-known member
I think I've made my point which sets aside your way of reasoning.
"I chose you out of the world" (John 15:16), so Christ includes salvation in His exclusive choosing as continuation to His saying "You did not choose Me but I chose you" (John 15:16).
"I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you" (John 15:15-16), so Christ includes friendship in His exclusive choosing, but your heart excluded friendship with your thoughts of "Jesus says that the disciples were chosen by him and for a purpose. That purpose was to serve.".
"You did not choose Me but I chose you" (John 15:16), so Christ includes the blessing of salvation in His exclusive choosing because He did not limit His saying according to your heart's treasure of "The verse is not talking about salvation".
“This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29), so your heart's treasure of "They make that choice whether to believe in Jesus or not to believe" is false.
"I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their Word" (John 17:20), so this very "Word" is the Word of God Jesus Himself, and even in your leavened writings of "Salvation is the result of believers sharing the gospel to unbelievers", we see the mention of "gospel" which is the Living Word of God.
The Apostle Paul wrote "I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes" (Romans 1:16).
Your "they are saved by grace through faith" is deceptively inadequate because the Apostle Paul wrote "by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast for we are His work" (Ephesians 2:8-10).
You are unapologetic and unrepentant for your adulterations to Deuteronomy 30:19, Hebrews 12:25, and Joshua 24:15, but now your heart adulterates the Holy Word of God as per your quoted writings:
| The tradition of man | The Word of God | |
| You did not choose Me but, except for salvation, I chose you (User 253's 15:16) | You did not choose Me but I chose you (John 15:16) |
The only way for free-willian philosophers to acheive free-will is for them to add to the Word of God, and it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).
You failed cease and desist writing against the Sovereignty of God, so you do not believe Jesus "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE HOLY GOD FOR THE WORK OF THE WORD OF GOD!!!
You most certainly have "made your point" which ultimately arrives at your traditions of men (Matthew 15:9) in opposition to the rescuing Word of God. Your adulteration of the Holy Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The traditions of men | The Love of God | |
| Truly, truly, I say to you, before one is born again he can see the Kingdom of God (The Book of Free-willians 3:3) | Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God. (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3) |
Furthermore, you most certainly have "made your point" that you are unapologetic and unrepentant for your hypocritical use of the word sight/see to indicate perceive while at the same time you deny Jesus using the word see to mean perceive as recorded in post #2,719.
The point that you made is not the point that you wanted to make because, you see, your heart sings a different song than the Heart of Christianity.
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE ONE WHO IS AND WAS AND IS TO COME!!!
Rockson
Well-known member
Sorry but you're overplayed in an extreme way the importance of your Calvinistic positions even if they were true (which they are not) The heart of Christianity IS NOT tulip! Most I believe even professional Calvinists who debate on the great stages reject your view too. The Heart of Christianity and the great song is the good news of what Jesus came and did by dying for our sins and being raised from the dead! If one believes that and receives that they shall be saved!
Last edited:
Rockson
Well-known member
which ultimately arrives at a right understanding of the scripture you're quoting.
Sorry Kermos but the quotation you make what you call the Free-Willian is just a disengeious way you're twisting the words of others.
And even if this were true which it isn't why are you mad at me or to others for? You believe everybody is ordained to do what they're doing anyway right? Shouldn't you be saying with a heart of love and mercy, "There but for the grace of God go I?" No offence but I don't think you're seeing things clearly and I trust and hope that someday you'll come out of your mental fog for that's what I believe that you're in.
Last edited:
