An Article on free will

[synergy]

Behold, @The Rogue Tomato and @Red Baker, the complete absence of the Word of God in Rockson's thoughts, so the traditions of man reign in his post without the Word of God.

Rockson, you wrote "I'd suggest you're off the rails by insisting such and very short sighted" in which you use the word "sighted" in the connotation for perception.

Sir, your conceptual use of sight as "perceive" is specifically covered in the post to which you replied:

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Dead in sin people are incapable of choosing or causing or motioning themselves to be born of God because a dead in sin person is unable to perceive King Jesus of the Kingdom of God for thus says the Word of God “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God” (John 3:3).​

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And, I suspect you failed to understand this related concept in the post to which you replied:

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A person hearing denotes a living person's reception of audible sounds, and a person hearing can connote a living person understanding.​

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Your adulteration of the Holy Word of God is evident in your heart's thoughts in your post:

The word of Rockson		The Word of God
Truly, truly, I say to you, before one is born again he can see the kingdom of God. (Rockson 3:3)		Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God. (John 3:3)

And so go your adulterations of the Holy Word of God again and again and again.

You, Rockson, and everyone are incapable of perceiving King Jesus apart from Lord Jesus doing a work in you (John 15:5).

You exalt your "I chose to believe in Jesus" above the very Word of God as recorded in John 3:3, and that concept represents your thoughts.

A word about your thoughts. It is written, "'For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,' declares the LORD. 'For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.'" (Isaiah 55:8-9).

A word about adding to scripture as you have done. It is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6), and the above explanation of your thoughts shows where you added to the Word of God.

Of the new Jerusalem, the Apostle John wrote "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:27) - notice that no one who practices lying gets in, and a human adding to scripture is the human lying.

Your free-willian philosophy is man overriding God's thoughts with man's thoughts, and that is not good.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men that lead to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE ONE WHO IS, AND WAS, AND IS TO COME!!!

Since you present yourself as having profound knowledge of seeing and entering the Kingdom of God, then do tell us how water itself (in addition to the Spirit) is indispensable for entering the Kingdom of God.

(John 3:5) Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

 

[civic]

Since you present yourself as having profound knowledge of seeing and entering the Kingdom of God, then do tell us how water itself (in addition to the Spirit) is indispensable for entering the Kingdom of God.

(John 3:5) Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

I'll get the popcorn popper fired up early this morning.

 

[Kermos]

this is a repeat

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/an-article-on-free-will.1287/post-94953

This is Truth (John 14:6).

Repentance Defined​

THESE THREE QUESTIONS GET ANSWERED​

• What is repentance?
• Who controls repentance?
• How does a person repent?

LINGUISTIC DEFiNITION​

Let us dig into the word "repent" which means "think differently afterwards". After we believers are born from above by the Holy Spirit (John 3:3), and in like manner given the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16). The Greek word metanoeó is the English word "repent" in Matthew 4:17. Let us obtain the definition of "repent".

Repent: think differently afterwards

metanoéō (from 3326 /metá, "changed after being with" and 3539 /noiéō, "think") – properly, "think differently after," "after a change of mind"; to repent (literally, "think differently afterwards") (def from 3340. metanoeó HELPS Word-studies section).
​

The word "repent" does not mean "I change my mind" as asserted by too many people. Try reciting the words of Jesus, where He is commanding the people in Matthew 4:17, except, first, replace the word "repent" with "I change my mind", then, second, replace the word "repent" with "think differently afterwards". God does not change (Malachi 3:6), so this One True God Jesus commands repent.

Godly sorrow brings "thinking differently afterward" leading to salvation (2 Corinthians 7:10, so God's power generates this sorrow within the believers hence God calls it "Godly sorrow" thus illuminating and magnifying sin (Romans 5:20).

FIRST BIBLICAL CiTATION FOR REPENTANCE - A DEEP EXAMINATION​

Here is the Christian teaching of 2 Corinthians 7:8-10. The passage (from the NASB which explicitly states that the NASB translators add bracketed words for clarity - so I have no problem removing the bracketed words from the NASB - but this is verbatim from the NASB):

1. For though I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it - [for] I see that that letter caused you sorrow, though only for a while -
2. I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to [the point of] repentance; for you were made sorrowful according to [the will of] God, so that you might not suffer loss in anything through us.
3. For the sorrow that is according to [the will] [of] God produces a repentance without regret, [leading] to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.

Paul wrote a letter that exposed the Corinthian problem, see "I caused you sorrow by my letter" in verse 8.

As Paul writes further (in verse 9), the Apostle narrows the focus with "for you were made sorrowful according to God"; moreover, the Greek of ἐλυπήθητε γὰρ κατὰ Θεόν agrees with "for you were made sorrowful according to God". "ἐλυπήθητε" means "you grieved"/"you were made sorrowful", and "γὰρ" means "for", and "κατὰ" means "down"/"against"/"according to", and "Θεόν" means "God".

Paul does not leave it there, NO, rather Paul repeats himself in verse 10 to make it clear - in Jewish fashion of repeating a point for emphasis - Paul makes it clear in no uncertain terms "the sorrow that is according to God produces a repentance without regret, to salvation". That is Paul driving the Power of God exclusive role in man's salvation point home!

NOTICE THE KEYWORDS OF "ACCORDING TO GOD".

That sorrow, that repentance, is not of man's conjuring. See the keywords and absolute concept of "according to God"!

The scripture is devoid of "sorrow that is according to your free will" or "your free will to repent" or any indication about such a notion as man's free-will choice toward God.

The Apostle wrote "the sorrow that is according to God produces thinking differently afterward without regret" (2 Corinthians 7:10).

SCRIPTURAL CITATIONS ABOUT THE SOURCE OF REPENTANCE​

BIBLE CITATION: Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? (Romans 2:4).

Notice that rebuke of people that despise repentance being from God!

BIBLE CITATION: When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life." (Acts 11:18)

See that God grants repentance as testified by the disciples in Acts 11:18.

BIBLE CITATION: with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, (2 Timothy 2:25)

Paul testifies that God grants "thinking different afterwards" in 2 Timothy 2:25.

THE THREE QUESTIONS ANSWERED​

God grants repentance into people, as it is written; on the other hand, there is complete absence and silence in scripture for repentance as a work conjured up by man nor by man's "free will" nor "choice" nor "ability".

God grants repentance, and God acts for God's glory! Praise be to the Living God!

continued from post #2,651

Your heart makes false statements about God. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE HOLY AND LIVING LORD JESUS CHRIST!!!

 

[Rockson]

That's not an easy question to answer no more than to say all who all Calvinist are the only true worshippers. Being either or, does not determined if you are a elect child of God.

You've said though that believing in free will leads to worshiping God in vain. It seems you didn't have much struggle in making that statement. Perhaps it would be well if you recant and admit you were wrong in saying not believing in Calvinism leads to worshipping God in vain.

Do not get hooked on~to every one that believeth...as a means of obtaining,

I've told you that believing is an action word or a verb. I've shared from Rom 10 what that action is we're to do....choose to believe in the integrity of God and that his good news of what Jesus did on the cross was for they who were the listener. With one's heart they believe unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto....UNTO......that means to take you to.....unto salvation. If you reject this is something WE ARE to do to obtain then you do not have the true gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.

You're actually working against the true message leaving the impression that don't worry about not responding to the message to repent. If you haven't repented you've got to wait upon God to put that in you. Reject his way of thinking immediately and right now get on the right path.

 

[Kermos]

Since you present yourself as having profound knowledge of seeing and entering the Kingdom of God, then do tell us how water itself (in addition to the Spirit) is indispensable for entering the Kingdom of God.

(John 3:5) Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Just as God has caused me to write previously, but you are blind to this fact, God causes me to proclaim the Truth (John 14:6), here and now.

The "water" is fundamentally crucial (John 4:13-14, John 7:37-39); nonetheless, you, synergy, cannot perceive King Jesus of the Kingdom of God without being born of God because the Word of God declares "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God." (John 3:3).

If you say that that your "I chose to believe in Jesus" precedes being born of God, then you deny Lord Jesus Christ who clearly states "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God." (John 3:3).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE BREAD OF LIFE!!!

 

[synergy]

This is Truth (John 14:6).

Repentance Defined​

THESE THREE QUESTIONS GET ANSWERED​

• What is repentance?
• Who controls repentance?
• How does a person repent?

LINGUISTIC DEFiNITION​

Let us dig into the word "repent" which means "think differently afterwards". After we believers are born from above by the Holy Spirit (John 3:3), and in like manner given the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16). The Greek word metanoeó is the English word "repent" in Matthew 4:17. Let us obtain the definition of "repent".

Repent: think differently afterwards

​

metanoéō (from 3326 /metá, "changed after being with" and 3539 /noiéō, "think") – properly, "think differently after," "after a change of mind"; to repent (literally, "think differently afterwards") (def from 3340. metanoeó HELPS Word-studies section).​

​

The word "repent" does not mean "I change my mind" as asserted by too many people. Try reciting the words of Jesus, where He is commanding the people in Matthew 4:17, except, first, replace the word "repent" with "I change my mind", then, second, replace the word "repent" with "think differently afterwards". God does not change (Malachi 3:6), so this One True God Jesus commands repent.

Godly sorrow brings "thinking differently afterward" leading to salvation (2 Corinthians 7:10, so God's power generates this sorrow within the believers hence God calls it "Godly sorrow" thus illuminating and magnifying sin (Romans 5:20).

FIRST BIBLICAL CiTATION FOR REPENTANCE - A DEEP EXAMINATION​

Here is the Christian teaching of 2 Corinthians 7:8-10. The passage (from the NASB which explicitly states that the NASB translators add bracketed words for clarity - so I have no problem removing the bracketed words from the NASB - but this is verbatim from the NASB):

1. For though I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it - [for] I see that that letter caused you sorrow, though only for a while -
2. I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to [the point of] repentance; for you were made sorrowful according to [the will of] God, so that you might not suffer loss in anything through us.
3. For the sorrow that is according to [the will] [of] God produces a repentance without regret, [leading] to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.

Paul wrote a letter that exposed the Corinthian problem, see "I caused you sorrow by my letter" in verse 8.

As Paul writes further (in verse 9), the Apostle narrows the focus with "for you were made sorrowful according to God"; moreover, the Greek of ἐλυπήθητε γὰρ κατὰ Θεόν agrees with "for you were made sorrowful according to God". "ἐλυπήθητε" means "you grieved"/"you were made sorrowful", and "γὰρ" means "for", and "κατὰ" means "down"/"against"/"according to", and "Θεόν" means "God".

Paul does not leave it there, NO, rather Paul repeats himself in verse 10 to make it clear - in Jewish fashion of repeating a point for emphasis - Paul makes it clear in no uncertain terms "the sorrow that is according to God produces a repentance without regret, to salvation". That is Paul driving the Power of God exclusive role in man's salvation point home!

NOTICE THE KEYWORDS OF "ACCORDING TO GOD".

That sorrow, that repentance, is not of man's conjuring. See the keywords and absolute concept of "according to God"!

The scripture is devoid of "sorrow that is according to your free will" or "your free will to repent" or any indication about such a notion as man's free-will choice toward God.

The Apostle wrote "the sorrow that is according to God produces thinking differently afterward without regret" (2 Corinthians 7:10).

SCRIPTURAL CITATIONS ABOUT THE SOURCE OF REPENTANCE​

BIBLE CITATION: Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? (Romans 2:4).

Notice that rebuke of people that despise repentance being from God!

BIBLE CITATION: When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life." (Acts 11:18)

See that God grants repentance as testified by the disciples in Acts 11:18.

BIBLE CITATION: with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, (2 Timothy 2:25)

Paul testifies that God grants "thinking different afterwards" in 2 Timothy 2:25.

THE THREE QUESTIONS ANSWERED​

God grants repentance into people, as it is written; on the other hand, there is complete absence and silence in scripture for repentance as a work conjured up by man nor by man's "free will" nor "choice" nor "ability".

God grants repentance, and God acts for God's glory! Praise be to the Living God!

continued from post #2,651

Your heart makes false statements about God. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE HOLY AND LIVING LORD JESUS CHRIST!!!

So when Christ exhorted everyone far and wide to "Repent and Believe the Gospel" in Mark 1:15, that is when "God grants repentance into people"? You sound very Universalistic.

 

[Rockson]

Rockson, questions concerning Romans 10 proves my case more than any point I know of~Actually part of Romans nine, ten, and all of eleven if understood properly proves that God has elect children who have a zeal of God but not based upon true knowledge of Jesus Christ's atonement.

You're off the rails. The scripture in Rom 10:1,2 which talks about having a zeal for God but not according to knowledge has to do in context with being saved itself,

Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. Rom 10:12

 

[synergy]

Just as God has caused me to write previously, but you are blind to this fact, God causes me to proclaim the Truth (John 14:6), here and now.

The "water" is fundamentally crucial (John 4:13-14, John 7:37-39); nonetheless, you, synergy, cannot perceive King Jesus of the Kingdom of God without being born of God because the Word of God declares "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God." (John 3:3).

If you say that that your "I chose to believe in Jesus" precedes being born of God, then you deny Lord Jesus Christ who clearly states "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God." (John 3:3).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE BREAD OF LIFE!!!

Sorry, your attempt to neutralize John 3:5 by citing John 4:13-14 which talks about the Spirit will not fool us. John 3:5 cannot be neutralized away and the sooner you understand that the better for you.

Also, you are exhibiting very poor grammar comprehension. If water = Spirit then John 3:5 becomes unless one is born of water Spirit and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God according to the Gospel of Kermos. Very poor grammar comprehension on your part.

(John 3:5) Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

 

[Red Baker]

So why are you telling me to do something that you can't give me confidence that I can do......and you say that I should repent. Your doctrine says really it's only a good thing if God has ordained it. So why are you telling me or others what we should do?

Rockson, any child of God can believe and repent. This is where you are missing our point! Only children of God can do such spiritual acts of the new man within them!

Mark 1:15-20~"And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. Now as he walked by the sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and Andrew his brother casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers. And Jesus said unto them, Come ye after me, and I will make you to become fishers of men. And straightway they forsook their nets, and followed him. And when he had gone a little further thence, he saw James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, who also were in the ship mending their nets. And straightway he called them: and they left their father Zebedee in the ship with the hired servants, and went after him."

Jesus said repent ye an dbeleive the gospel~who do you think he was talking to? To those to whom the Father gave them power to hear his voice! Matthew 16:15-16. This power is not given to all, only to those ordained to eternal life.

So, if you think you cannot repent, then what are you saying to me based on the scriptures quoted above? Based on the spirit in which you have written you post, I say to you I believe YOU CAN~but, whom am I,. but flesh and blood here today, gone tomorrow~ and have no power to see your heart perfectly~and neither do i desire to see~for I do not like what I see in my old man's heart~it truly grieves me.

 

[Red Baker]

If there are both elect/ saved Calvinists and non Calvinists and everything is determined by God even our faith and doctrine, why would Gid cause you to believe tulip and me to reject it ?

Great question..... let me answer after iI take care of a few project already in front to me.

 

[Red Baker]

You're off the rails. The scripture in Rom 10:1,2 which talks about having a zeal for God but not according to knowledge has to do in context with being saved itself,

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Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. Rom 10:12

It does indeed~but the salvation under consideration is not vital phase of our salvation, but the practical phase.

If you have time, please consider: https://letgodbetrue.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/when-was-saul-saved.pdf

 

[Rockson]

If there are both elect/ saved Calvinists and non Calvinists and everything is determined by God even our faith and doctrine, why would Gid cause you to believe tulip and me to reject it ?

Things like this need to be given thought. Jesus appealed to us to consider,

"Which of you being a If you then, being evil, (or a natural realm parent) know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!" Matt 7 :11

Universally I'm sure with all parents they KNOW it is a good thing for their offspring to get along and have a sense of harmony between them. With Calvinism we're to believe God delights in his children not being on the same page with one another creating the best possible scenario where they as a family would have PEACE. What a strange, strange way of thinking Calvinists have in their promoting the thought that God through ordaining actually want's division. When one takes the wraps off of what they believe that's where one lands.

 

[Rockson]

It does indeed~but the salvation under consideration is not vital phase of our salvation, but the practical phase.

Sorry you've written words here which leave the impression you've said something but really you haven't.

 

[Rockson]

Great question..... let me answer after iI take care of a few project already in front to me.

I'll be looking forward to see what you can possibly say about this to back up your position. I can't see there anything of which you possibly could. God's own children all believing different things and that God ordained this by his desire to take place? Doesn't add up .

 

[Rockson]

Rockson, any child of God can believe and repent. This is where you are missing our point! Only children of God can do such spiritual acts of the new man within them!

So then you're saying those who you consider the non elect should not repent? Will you go on record in saying it is a good thing that they don't for you believe God has ordained this?

Keep in mind before answering that Jesus wept over Jerusalem saying how he longed that they would repent. That should be a lock in for you that he thought and believed it would be a good thing if they did. Your Calvinism however says it wasn't. You Calvinism insinuates Jesus was insincere with his tears. Are you ready now to give up this doctrine?

 

[Red Baker]

So when Christ exhorted everyone far and wide to "Repent and Believe the Gospel" in Mark 1:15, that is when "God grants repentance into people"? You sound very Universalistic.

The context does not support your twisted meaning of Jesus' words.

Mark 1:14-20~"Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. Now as he walked by the sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and Andrew his brother casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers. And Jesus said unto them, Come ye after me, and I will make you to become fishers of men. And straightway they forsook their nets, and followed him. And when he had gone a little further thence, he saw James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, who also were in the ship mending their nets. And straightway he called them: and they left their father Zebedee in the ship with the hired servants, and went after him."

All Jesus called came unto him, he was very selective in whom he called.

Luke 19:1-9~"And Jesus entered and passed through Jericho. And, behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus, which was the chief among the publicans, and he was rich. And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the press, because he was little of stature. And he ran before, and climbed up into a sycomore tree to see him: for he was to pass that way. And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house. And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully. And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner. And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold. And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham. For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost."

Need help with these wonderful scriptures? Probably not, you rather continue seeking sound bites to support your work gospel. God has put plenty of them in His word for people like you! https://letgodbetrue.com/sermons/index/year-2002/is-god-the-author-of-confusion/

God justly blinds and confuses men, even by the scriptures themselves, when they do not approach Him rightly.​

 

[Red Baker]

If there are both elect/ saved Calvinists and non Calvinists and everything is determined by God even our faith and doctrine, why would God cause you to believe tulip and me to reject it ?

Greetings civic~First, I do not hold to the Tulip.

Calvinism may be accepted in its first three points as scriptural and according to the truth of the gospel as preached by brother Paul.

Man’s nature is totally corrupt since Eden, rendering him without desire or ability to know or please God in any way for salvation. God’s election of some men to eternal life is based purely on the good pleasure of His will in spite of their foreseen evil rebellion. Jesus Christ died only for the elect, and He will not lose a single one of those that the Father gave Him to fully and finally redeem.

However, Calvinism errs with its point of Irresistible Grace, for they apply it to the gospel and conversion, which is farther than truth. They apply irresistible grace, or what they name the “effectual call,” to the preaching of the gospel in the case of all the elect.

They believe that all the elect will hear and believe the gospel sometime during their lives and cannot be saved without these things.

This is sacramental salvation, for unless the “priest” carries the grace of God’s gospel to the elect, they cannot be saved without it.

They must therefore invent all sorts of alternative theories to cover the salvation of infants, idiots, heathen, the deaf and blind, etc.

Of course, they rarely define what they mean by “saving faith,” or they would make it to loose, or limit the elect to just a very few.

The typical Calvinist, even John Calvin and Jonathan Edwards, seldom differentiate clearly between regeneration and conversion.

God’s grace is definitely irresistible when it comes to regeneration, but conversion by the gospel depends on preacher and hearer.

The first of the acts is God’s work in salvation, and the second is the information and news concerning it for the comfort of the elect. Ministers must make war with their hearers, for conversion is and always has been a struggle against the resistance of the saints.

Again, Calvinism errs with its point of Final Perseverance, for they end up with a fatalist doctrine of men incapable of backsliding.

Persevering is man’s action. If God guarantees man’s perseverance, then he will continue in faith and good works without fail. This fatalistic doctrine, if logically followed, would render the New Testament epistles and the work of the ministry unnecessary.

If by final perseverance the Calvinist means God will not lose any of His elect, then why not call it preservation like the Bible?

God will preserve His saints so that not one will be lost and all make it safely to heaven, but He has not guaranteed their faithfulness.

This should also answer your question: "If there are both elect/ saved Calvinists and non Calvinists and everything is determined by God even our faith and doctrine"~God has not determine our faithfulness~that's fatalistic! Our salvation from sin and condemnation is determined by God, but not our faithfulness!

 

[Rockson]

~God has not determine our faithfulness~that's fatalistic! Our salvation from sin and condemnation is determined by God, but not our faithfulness!

Sorry RB but your way you reason things out is unsound. So you claim you're against things that are fatalistic but you somehow believe you can make it seem like you can believe your salvation is ordained but also claim that's not fatalistic? Sorry again but you're all over the map.

 

[civic]

Greetings civic~First, I do not hold to the Tulip.

Calvinism may be accepted in its first three points as scriptural and according to the truth of the gospel as preached by brother Paul.

Man’s nature is totally corrupt since Eden, rendering him without desire or ability to know or please God in any way for salvation. God’s election of some men to eternal life is based purely on the good pleasure of His will in spite of their foreseen evil rebellion. Jesus Christ died only for the elect, and He will not lose a single one of those that the Father gave Him to fully and finally redeem.

However, Calvinism errs with its point of Irresistible Grace, for they apply it to the gospel and conversion, which is farther than truth. They apply irresistible grace, or what they name the “effectual call,” to the preaching of the gospel in the case of all the elect.

They believe that all the elect will hear and believe the gospel sometime during their lives and cannot be saved without these things.

This is sacramental salvation, for unless the “priest” carries the grace of God’s gospel to the elect, they cannot be saved without it.

They must therefore invent all sorts of alternative theories to cover the salvation of infants, idiots, heathen, the deaf and blind, etc.

Of course, they rarely define what they mean by “saving faith,” or they would make it to loose, or limit the elect to just a very few.

The typical Calvinist, even John Calvin and Jonathan Edwards, seldom differentiate clearly between regeneration and conversion.

God’s grace is definitely irresistible when it comes to regeneration, but conversion by the gospel depends on preacher and hearer.

The first of the acts is God’s work in salvation, and the second is the information and news concerning it for the comfort of the elect. Ministers must make war with their hearers, for conversion is and always has been a struggle against the resistance of the saints.

Again, Calvinism errs with its point of Final Perseverance, for they end up with a fatalist doctrine of men incapable of backsliding.

Persevering is man’s action. If God guarantees man’s perseverance, then he will continue in faith and good works without fail. This fatalistic doctrine, if logically followed, would render the New Testament epistles and the work of the ministry unnecessary.

If by final perseverance the Calvinist means God will not lose any of His elect, then why not call it preservation like the Bible?

God will preserve His saints so that not one will be lost and all make it safely to heaven, but He has not guaranteed their faithfulness.

This should also answer your question: "If there are both elect/ saved Calvinists and non Calvinists and everything is determined by God even our faith and doctrine"~God has not determine our faithfulness~that's fatalistic! Our salvation from sin and condemnation is determined by God, but not our faithfulness!

Then if man is corrupt from birth and all in adam have his fallen nature that it totally depraved then Jesus must have the same fallen nature since the bible declares He is like us in every way.

 

[Kermos]

Sorry, your attempt to neutralize John 3:5 by citing John 4:13-14 which talks about the Spirit will not fool us. John 3:5 cannot be neutralized away and the sooner you understand that the better for you.

Also, you are exhibiting very poor grammar comprehension. If water = Spirit then John 3:5 becomes unless one is born of water Spirit and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God according to the Gospel of Kermos. Very poor grammar comprehension on your part.

(John 3:5) Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

You, civic, cannot understand John 3:5 unless you can first perceive KING JESUS OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD who declares "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God." (John 3:3).

If you say that that your "I chose to believe in Jesus" precedes being born of God, then you deny Lord Jesus Christ who clearly states "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God." (John 3:3).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE GIVER OF LIFE!!!