An Article on free will

[Kermos]

To start with you ignored the logic

John 12:47 (NASB 2020) — 47 If anyone hears My teachings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.


That any unbeliever is part of the world Christ came to save

Christ does not judge any unbelievers because he came to save the world

From this verse we see any unbeliever is part of the world Christ came to save

That in itself refutes your theology of limited atonement.

Where do you address this refutation of your theology?

Again, you jumped to John 12:47 which is a different dialog than John 3:1-21 without reasonably addressing the failures of your fraudulent free-willian philosophy, so let's look at your thoughts in detail.

God caused me to address your specific free-willian philosophical point by me quoting Christ, but you are one who does not receive Christ's sayings (John 12:48 - notice John 12:47 which you quoted is directly adjacent to John 12:48).

Your heart set the "world" equal to "all unbelievers everywhere in all time" when you wrote "Christ does not judge any unbelievers because he came to save the world" along with your later paragraph of "Thus we see Christ died for all"; more specifically, your heart equivocates "world" into a thing of "all unbelievers who call in their own initiative speaking their self-willed change of heart from unbeliever to believer in Me".

Your adulteration of the Holy Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

The word of TomL		The Word of God
If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save any unbeliever who calls in his own initiative speaking his self-willed change of heart from unbeliever to believer in Me. (TomL 12:47)		If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day. 49 “For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. (John 12:47-49)

And so go your adulterations of precious and Holy Word of God again and again and again.

See your heart has your "world" of unbelievers being superior to Jesus because your unbelievers speak on their own initiative in contrast to Jesus who says "I did not speak on My own initiative" (John 12:49).

Then you ignore the fact that John repeats the same thought here

Your Free-willian Philosophy is a deep state of confusion because you wrongly attribute the Lord Jesus Christ's words recorded in both John 12:47 and John 3:17 to John instead of Jesus!

John 3:17 (NASB 2020) — 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him.

as he did

John 12:47 (NASB 2020) — 47 If anyone hears My teachings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

rather you rewrite the argument to suit yourself and appeal to the same tired argument you presented so many times while ignoring rebuttal

John 12:47 is not John 3:18, and John 3:18 is part of the John 3:16-18 passage, but John 12:47 is not part of the John 3:16-18 and there is no mention of anyone causing himself to believe in Him whom He has sent; therefore, John 12:47 is no proof text of your fraudulent free-willian philosophy.

The saving "believing" concept in John 3:16-18 is governed by “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

The only way for man truthfully to say that you believe in Him whom He has sent is because that you believe in Him whom He has sent is the work of God.

Then it seems you really have nom idea what the doctrine of limited atonement means when you say



No what is shown is you do not know what you are talking about

Then you absurdly state

ignoring John 12:47

John 12:47 (NASB 2020) — 47 If anyone hears My teachings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

and the fact that Jesus does not judge any unbeliever because he did not come to judge the world

that obviously makes any unbeliever a part of the world he did not come to judge but to save

ignoring also the parallel statement

Since I previously told you that I believe in complete atonement (proof post #1,802), then your nonsensical "your doctrine of limited atonement is shown to be false" is foolishness.

According to your Free-willian Prophecy, the following represents dead in sin unbelievers:

• if Bob chooses to believe in Christ, then God must reward Bob with eternal life.
• if Alice chooses to believe not in Christ, then God must punish Alice with eternal damnation.
• The conclusion: the causative factor for a person obtaining eternal life is whether a person “chooses to believe in Christ”.

So man is the cause of eternal life because man goes to hell without man choosing to believe in Christ.

On to another dark consequence of your free-willian philosophy "Thus we see Christ died for all" is that your heart's treasure renders Christ's death an abject failure for every unbeliever who dies as an unbeliever because Christ's coverage of that unbeliever's sin failed to cover that unbeliever's sin (see the Alice example above).

Your belief in failure atonement results in Christ being a false prophet because Jesus fails to save all that he died to save.

John 3:17 (NASB 2020) — 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him.

thus ignoring the obvious faith the world is populated by both believers and unbelievers

and a host of lexicons



4. world(people) — all of the people of the world understood according to the place in which human beings live. Related Topics: People; World.
Jn 1:10 ὁ κόσμος
Jn 3:16 Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν
Jn 8:12 Ἐγώ εἰμι τὸ φῶς τοῦ κόσμου·
Jn 17:6 οὓς ἔδωκάς μοι ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου.
2 Pe 2:5 ἀρχαίου κόσμου οὐκ ἐφείσατο,
Rick Brannan, ed., Lexham Research Lexicon of the Greek New Testament (Lexham Research Lexicons; Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2020).

b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47.

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.

5. the inhabitants of the world: θέατρον ἐγενήθημεν τῷ κόσμῳ καὶ ἀγγέλοις κ. ἀνθρώποις, 1 Co. 4:9 [W. 127 (121)]; particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race (first So in Sap. [e.g. 10:1]): Mt. 13:38; 18:7; Mk. 14:9; Jn. 1:10, 29, [36 L in br.]; 3:16 sq.; 6:33, 51; 8:26; 12:47

Joseph Henry Thayer, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Being Grimm’s Wilke's Clavis Novi Testamenti (New York: Harper & Brothers., 1889), 357.

of the human inhabitants of the world: Mt 5:14; 13:38, Mk 14:9, Jo 1:10; 4:42; 12:47,

G. Abbott-Smith, A Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament (New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1922), 255.

(E) The world is the object of judgment and saving mercy (John 1:29; 3:16–19; 4:42; 6:33, 51; 8:12, 26; 9:5; 12:46, 47;

Spiros Zodhiates, The Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament (Chattanooga, TN: AMG Publishers, 2000).

Lets look at the term "world" in a directly adjacent critical text to John 3:16-17 of which you quoted first:

16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that every one believing in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(John 3:17-18)
​

Clearly, unbelievers of the world are judged as their default state of being as per Christ recorded in John 3:18 (directly adjacent to John 3:16-17 instead of John 12:47 that fails as a proof text for your free-willian philosophy as demonstrated above).

The dead in sin must be born of God in order to perceive King Jesus of the Kingdom of God (John 3:3); furthermore, Lord Jesus Christ establishes the ordained order of salvation in John chapter 3 with John 3:3 preceding John 3:16 in the same dialog.

Your free-willian philosophy is false and in a state of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33) because the dead in sin do not cause themselves to have life in Christ.

The word "world" in John 3:16 is the population of persons who currently are or in the future will be imparted the work of God unto salvation that is faith/belief in Lord Jesus Christ whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, THE MIGHTY GOD!!!

 

[brightfame52]

LOL you never come close to proving any such thing

and you ignored the point that you falsely presented my position as teaching men can believe without revelation

I stated





Newsflash one enters into the church through faith. It's not a lie, but your refusal to believe scripture because you have been captured by Gnostic inspired philosophies.





What you ignored

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

These men believed temporarily now they were either unregenerate or their regeneration failed

Which would you argue for?


What you ignored

Clearly scripture teaches man is capable of believing the gospel

John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John 5:45–46 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

You show you do not believe scripture and term it a lie based on your gnostic inspired doctrine



Ignoring the context






Ignoring context once again






That is your theology. It was not held by the early church pre augustine, and it is not taught in scripture

Moffatt’s New Testament 2 results

Eph 6:8	Be sure that everyone, slave or​	free, will​	be paid back by the Lord and
Philem 14	to me might come of your own​	free will​	, without any appearance of

The Lexham English Bible 1 result

Philem 14

but according to your own​

free will​

.

American Standard Version 1 result

Philem 14

not be as of necessity, but of​

free will​

.

Amplified Bible 2 results

1 Cor 9:17	For if I do this work of my own​	free will​	, then I have my pay (my reward);
James 1:18	And it was of His own [​	free] will​	that He gave us birth [as sons] by

The Amplified New Testament 2 results

1 Cor 9:17	For if I do this work of my own​	free will​	, then I have my pay (my reward);
James 1:18	And it was of His own [​	free] will​	that He gave us birth [as sons] by

Christian Standard Bible 1 result

Philem 14

of obligation, but of your own​

free will​

.

Complete Jewish Bible 2 results

John 10:18	contrary, I lay it down of my own​	free will​	. I have the power to lay it down,
2 Cor 8:3	to their means, but of their own​	free will​	they have given beyond their

The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible: New Testament 1 result

Philem 14

should not be forced, but of​

free will​

.

GOD’S WORD Translation 4 results

John 10:18	from me. I give my life of my own​	free will​	. I have the authority to give my
2 Cor 8:3	I assure you that by their own​	free will​	they have given all they could,
2 Cor 8:17	went to visit you by his own​	free will​	.
Philem 14	this favor for me out of your own​	free will​	without feeling forced to do it.

The Good News Translation 5 results

John 10:18	from me. I give it up of my own​	free will​	. I have the right to give it up,
2 Cor 8:3	than they could. Of their own​	free will​
2 Cor 8:17	so eager to help that of his own​	free will​	he decided to go to you.
Phil 2:7	Instead of this, of his own​	free will​	he gave up all he had, and took
Philem 14	like you to do it of your own​	free will​	. So I will not do anything unless

The Holman Christian Standard Bible 1 result

Philem 14

of obligation, but of your own​

free will​

.

Holy Bible: Evangelical Heritage Version 3 results

2 Cor 8:3	I testify that of their own​	free will​	they gave according to their
2 Cor 8:17	went to you eagerly, of his own​	free will​	.
Eph 6:8	each person, whether slave or​	free, will​	receive back from the Lord

Holy Scriptures: Tree of Life Version 2 results

2 Cor 8:3	ability, they gave of their own​	free will​	—
Philem 14	wouldn’t be by force but by​	free will​	.

International Standard Version, New Testament 3 results

John 10:18	from me; I lay it down of my own​	free will​	. I have the authority to lay it
2 Cor 8:3	I can testify that by their own​	free will​	they have given to the utmost of
2 Cor 8:17	went to visit you by his own​	free will​	.

The Message: The Bible in Contemporary Language 1 result

John 10:18	from me. I lay it down of my own​	free will​	. I have the right to lay it down;
1 Cor 9:17	εἰ γὰρ​	ἑκὼν​	τοῦτο πράσσω, μισθὸν ἔχω· εἰ δὲ
Philem 14	ἀνάγκην τὸ ἀγαθόν σου ᾖ ἀλλὰ κατὰ​	ἑκούσιον​	.
Philem 14	ἀνάγκην τὸ ἀγαθόν σου ᾖ ἀλλὰ κατὰ​	ἑκούσιον​	.

The NET Bible 1 result

John 10:18

me, but I lay it down of my own​

free will​

. I have the authority to lay it

New American Standard Bible 1 result

Philem 14

by compulsion, but of your own​

free will​

.

New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update 1 result

Philem 14

by compulsion but of your own​

free will​

.

The New English Bible 4 results

John 10:18	it; I am laying it down of my own​	free will​	. I have the right to lay it down,
Eph 6:8	good each man may do, slave or​	free, will​	be repaid him by the Lord.
Philem 14	of compulsion, but of your own​	free will​	.
1 Pet 5:2	under compulsion, but of your own​	free will​	, as God would have it; not for

New International Reader’s Version (1998) 1 result

Luke 21:28

The time when you will be set​

free will​

be very close.”

The New Jerusalem Bible 1 result

John 10:18

from me; I lay it down of my own​

free will​

, and as I have power to lay it

New Living Translation 1 result

2 Cor 8:3

And they did it of their own​

free will​

.

The New Testament in Modern English 1 result

John 10:1–18

me, but I lay it down of my own​

free will​

. I have the power to lay it down

The New Testament in Modern Speech: An Idiomatic Translation into Everyday English from the Text of “The Resultant Greek Testament” 2 results

2 Cor 8:3	power, they have of their own​	free will​	given help.
2 Cor 8:17	earnest he goes to you of his own​	free will​	.

The Revised English Bible 3 results

John 10:18	me; I am laying it down of my own​	free will​	. I have the right to lay it down,
Eph 6:8	good anyone may do, slave or​	free, will​	be repaid by the Lord.
Philem 14	of compulsion, but of your own​	free will​	.

The Revised Standard Version 2 results

2 Cor 8:3	beyond their means, of their own​	free will​	,
Philem 14	be by compulsion but of your own​	free will ​	.

English Revised Version 1 in 1 verse



Philem 14

but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will

.
Page . Exported from Logos Bible Software, 6:05 AM April 24, 2023.








You have multiple problems here

1 you would have to show where I have ever stated that man can believe apart from revelation. That is the lie you posted

2 you would have to read in context. You took several quotes apart their context.

3 you would have to address the scripture which supported my statements





sorry it was your lie that I hold men capable of believing apart from revelation

You cannot defend your lie by accusing me


Show proof of what you claim

When I stated you falsified my position i show how, you do nothing


It's not god's word you are teaching but the perversion of it inspired by gnostic cultic thought.

Man by nature is under the control of his evil nature of disobedience Eph 2:2-3

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Man must be given repentance in regeneration, he cant do it by nature, he is captive by the devil by his will 2 Tim 2:25-26

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
See mans will is captive to the devils will,

Eph 2:2-3

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince[Devil] of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

 

[TomL]

Again, you jumped to John 12:47 which is a different dialog than John 3:1-21 without reasonably addressing the failures of your fraudulent free-willian philosophy, so let's look at your thoughts in detail.

Sorry but

John 12:47 (KJV 1900) — 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

was compared to

John 3:17 (KJV 1900) — 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

which both sopeak ofgod saving the world

as i stated

To start with you ignored the logic

John 12:47 (NASB 2020) — 47 If anyone hears My teachings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.


That any unbeliever is part of the world Christ came to save

Christ does not judge any unbelievers because he came to save the world

From this verse we see any unbeliever is part of the world Christ came to save

That in itself refutes your theology of limited atonement.

Where do you address this refutation of your theology?

you didn't

God caused me to address your specific free-willian philosophical point by me quoting Christ, but you are one who does not receive Christ's sayings (John 12:48 - notice John 12:47 which you quoted is directly adjacent to John 12:48).

Don't blame god for your unwillingness to heed scripture

Address the logic

Why does Christ not judge any unbeliever at this time accortding to scripture

John 12:47 (KJV 1900) — 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

answer according to scripture

John 12:47 (NASB 2020) — 47 If anyone hears My teachings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

Now explain how that does not make any unbeliever a part of the world
c

Your heart set the "world" equal to "all unbelievers everywhere in all time" when you wrote "Christ does not judge any unbelievers because he came to save the world"

No that is not what I stated

For the unbeliever will be eventually judge

along with your later paragraph of "Thus we see Christ died for all"; more specifically, your heart equivocates "world" into a thing of "all unbelievers who call in their own initiative speaking their self-willed change of heart from unbeliever to believer in Me".

Indedd christ did die for all

You have not addressed the logic I presented from John 12:47

and nor will you address all these


Christ died list

1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Your adulteration of the Holy Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

The word of TomL		The Word of God
If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save any unbeliever who calls in his own initiative speaking his self-willed change of heart from unbeliever to believer in Me. (TomL 12:47)		If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day. 49 “For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. (John 12:47-49)

And so go your adulterations of precious and Holy Word of God again and again and again.

See your heart has your "world" of unbelievers being superior to Jesus because your unbelievers speak on their own initiative in contrast to Jesus who says "I did not speak on My own initiative" (John 12:49).

Absurd argument men speaking of their own initiative does not make men suoperior to jesus who spoke according to the will of the father

Your Free-willian Philosophy is a deep state of confusion because you wrongly attribute the Lord Jesus Christ's words recorded in both John 12:47 and John 3:17 to John instead of Jesus!

More absurdity it john who is recording and writing down the words of Christ

further can you claim the words of Jesus would be of less authority than those of John

hello

John 12:47 is not John 3:18, and John 3:18 is part of the John 3:16-18 passage, but John 12:47 is not part of the John 3:16-18 and there is no mention of anyone causing himself to believe in Him whom He has sent; therefore, John 12:47 is no proof text of your fraudulent free-willian philosophy.

Sorry both john 12:47 and John 3:17 speak of God saving the world, and seeing as the meaning of the word world is the issue here they are appropriate parallels

John 12:47 (KJV 1900) — 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

John 3:17 (KJV 1900) — 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

You appear rather desperate to avoid the obvious sameness of subject matter

the rest is just your constant repetition of your views which has been addressed many times

Deal with the logic presented

 

[TomL]

Man by nature is under the control of his evil nature of disobedience Eph 2:2-3

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Man must be given repentance in regeneration, he cant do it by nature, he is captive by the devil by his will 2 Tim 2:25-26

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
See mans will is captive to the devils will,

Eph 2:2-3

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince[Devil] of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Show where scripture shows man is incapable of responding to God

Deuteronomy 30:10–20 (KJV 1900) — 10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. 11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. 15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. 17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

dv

 

[TomL]

Amen!

“He who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (John 3:21).

“I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (Matthew 11:25).

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God” (John 3:3).

How one is born again

receiving christ

John 1:12 (KJV 1900) — 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

believing in Christ

John 3:8–15 (KJV 1900) — 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

believing the gospel

James 1:18 (KJV 1900) — 18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV 1900) — 15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

1 Peter 1:18–25 (KJV 1900) — 18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

 

[Red Baker]

LOL you never come close to proving any such thing.

You sound so much like the Jews of Jesus' day.

John 8:48​

“Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?”

It's not god's word you are teaching but the perversion of it inspired by gnostic cultic thought.

Sound just like them.

​

Matthew 27:63​

“Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.”

Calling some teachings a gnostic cultic~means nothing unless you can take scriptures and prove your position, which you can never come close of going. Your tactic is to pile up a bunch of words with no meaning that allows you to lose most of the readers, leaving them discourage in even seeking the truth.

I'm not going to filter through this garbage with thoughts on everything you reached into your bag and threw out hoping some would take, it is unprofitable to do so.

and you ignored the point that you falsely presented my position as teaching men can believe without revelation

I stated

So, show me where you have said that it takes divine revelation from God's Spirit before one can believe and respond to the word of God, just one place.

ARTICLE EIGHT: THE FREE WILL OF MAN​

We affirm that God, as an expression of His sovereignty, endows each person with actual free will (the ability to choose between two options), which must be exercised in accepting or rejecting God’s gracious call to salvation by the Holy Spirit through the Gospel.

We deny that the decision of faith is an act of God rather than a response of the person. We deny that there is an “effectual call” for certain people that is different from a “general call” to any person who hears and understands the Gospel.

I Know civic posted this, but is this not also your teaching/belief? Yes or no?

Newsflash one enters into the church through faith. It's not a lie, but your refusal to believe scripture because you have been captured by Gnostic inspired philosophies.

Eternally, it is through God's election of grace~2nd Timothy 1:9; practically, it is by faith and baptism! Acts 8:29-39; Romans 6:1-4.

Newsflash one enters through faith

Prove it~Besides, what church was Jesus a member of, or part of.

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

These men believed temporarily now they were either unregenerate or their regeneration failed

Which would you argue for?

Coming back and address this.

 

[Theophilus]

The reason for the hostility found in the behavior of Calvinists Is because in their theology God only loves the elect. And since Calvinists have no way of knowing who the elect are they are incapable of sharing God's love.

They can't make this one real in their life.

34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

John 13:34-35​

 

[brightfame52]

Show where scripture shows man is incapable of responding to God

Deuteronomy 30:10–20 (KJV 1900) — 10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. 11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. 15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. 17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

dv

Man by nature is under the control of his evil nature of disobedience Eph 2:2-3

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Man must be given repentance in regeneration, he cant do it by nature, he is captive by the devil by his will 2 Tim 2:25-26

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
See mans will is captive to the devils will,

 

[Rockson]

The reason for the hostility found in the behavior of Calvinists Is because in their theology God only loves the elect. And since Calvinists have no way of knowing who the elect are they are incapable of sharing God's love.

They can't make this one real in their life.

34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

John 13:34-35​

I've thought upon this often. Not to put down Calvinists as people for I think many of them truly are loving people.....but then again a lot of them really don't take things like T.U.L.I.P to heart or at least it just stays as a paper thing.....but their real mind set goes to telling the sinner that he loves them. In other words in practice some Calvinists act like Non Calvinists. I believe that many in their hearts just know what's in their heads (about Calvinism) just can't be true.

When it comes to some or many that are really entrenched within their Calv doctrines and take them seriously......I see a problem or what may be a struggle for them. We do know that if ones are trained to believe they're some type of elite I think it's hard for ones' inner consciousness to not have a condescending spirit towards those not to approved as being some favorite.

They can claim all they want no it's all grace and there's nothing within me that made me special.....it still stays though I believe as something on the back of their mind....WELL THERE MUST HAVE BEEN SOMETHING. There must be something that made me more desirable to be around.

And if God has so little patience and concern for those he chose (according to them) not to be saved.....then why in the world should I have any good feeling towards them either? If God doesn't love them.....then how can I do so? Do I have the capacity to love more than God? Calvinism collapses therefore on many levels.

 

[TomL]

LOL you never come close to proving any such thing.

Red Baker
You sound so much like the Jews of Jesus' day.

John 8:48​

“Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?”

You post nothing to prove your claim

It's not god's word you are teaching but the perversion of it inspired by gnostic cultic thought.

Red Baker
Sound just like them.

Matthew 27:63​

“Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.”

Calling some teachings a gnostic cultic~means nothing unless you can take scriptures and prove your position, which you can never come close of going. Your tactic is to pile up a bunch of words with no meaning that allows you to lose most of the readers, leaving them discourage in even seeking the truth.

I'm not going to filter through this garbage with thoughts on everything you reached into your bag and threw out hoping some would take, it is unprofitable to do so.

Again you provide nothing to prove your point

I have multiple times posted scripture showing man's free will to believe

I have also posted multiple times the belief of the pre Augustine church fathers showing they held to free will

I have also sdhown it was the only the gnostic cults which denied free will

so i have established my points, but you have not established yours

and you ignored the point that you falsely presented my position as teaching men can believe without revelation

I stated

So, show me where you have said that it takes divine revelation from God's Spirit before one can believe and respond to the word of God, just one place.

Revelation what I stated

and you can see it in this quote

Romans 10:10–15 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

and if that is not enough for you

1. The Power in Salvation​

   The enabling power is revelation Given revelation he can believe Romans 10:13–17 (KJV 1900) — 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard...
   • TomL
   • Post #10
   • May 23, 2024
   • Forum: Calvinism vs. Arminianism

2. Doctrine of Unconditional Election​

   Hardly. Revelation while necessary is not the same as irresistible grace You are assuming your doctrine again
   • TomL
   • Post #665
   • Apr 24, 2024
   • Forum: Soteriology- The Doctrine of Salvation
   • 
     

   • Favoritism in Unconditional Election​

     Faith is a dorean? Why do you mix Greek and English? You wouldn't be playing word games would you? Even your statement Faith is not a work that we produce on our own? What does that mean? Produced apart from grace? Produced apart from revelation? neither would describe my view Something...
     • TomL
     • Post #303
     • May 15, 2024
     • Forum: Calvinism vs. Arminianism
     I gave yiou three
   • 
     
   • You can now correct your false claim

ARTICLE EIGHT: THE FREE WILL OF MAN​

We affirm that God, as an expression of His sovereignty, endows each person with actual free will (the ability to choose between two options), which must be exercised in accepting or rejecting God’s gracious call to salvation by the Holy Spirit through the Gospel.

We deny that the decision of faith is an act of God rather than a response of the person. We deny that there is an “effectual call” for certain people that is different from a “general call” to any person who hears and understands the Gospel.

Red baker
I Know civic posted this, but is this not also your teaching/belief? Yes or no?


Yes

Newsflash one enters into the church through faith. It's not a lie, but your refusal to believe scripture because you have been captured by Gnostic inspired philosophies.

Red Baker
Eternally, it is through God's election of grace~2nd Timothy 1:9; practically, it is by faith and baptism! Acts 8:29-39; Romans 6:1-4.

Um none of those verses teach unconditional election

Newsflash one enters through faith

Red Baker
Prove it~Besides, what church was Jesus a member of, or part of.

Ephesians 1:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Not church denomination - but church the body of Christ

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

These men believed temporarily now they were either unregenerate or their regeneration failed

Which would you argue for?

Red Baker
Coming back and address this.

We shall see

 

[TomL]

Man by nature is under the control of his evil nature of disobedience Eph 2:2-3

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Man must be given repentance in regeneration, he cant do it by nature, he is captive by the devil by his will 2 Tim 2:25-26

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
See mans will is captive to the devils will,

You failed to address this

Show where scripture shows man is incapable of responding to God

Deuteronomy 30:10–20 (KJV 1900) — 10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. 11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. 15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. 17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them

BTW repentance proceeds regeneration
Acts 11:18 (KJV 1900) — 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

 

[Theophilus]

I've thought upon this often. Not to put down Calvinists as people for I think many of them truly are loving people.....but then again a lot of them really don't take things like T.U.L.I.P to heart or at least it just stays as a paper thing.....but their real mind set goes to telling the sinner that he loves them. In other words in practice some Calvinists act like Non Calvinists. I believe that many in their hearts just know what's in their heads (about Calvinism) just can't be true.

When it comes to some or many that are really entrenched within their Calv doctrines and take them seriously......I see a problem or what may be a struggle for them. We do know that if ones are trained to believe they're some type of elite I think it's hard for ones' inner consciousness to not have a condescending spirit towards those not to approved as being some favorite.

They can claim all they want no it's all grace and there's nothing within me that made me special.....it still stays though I believe as something on the back of their mind....WELL THERE MUST HAVE BEEN SOMETHING. There must be something that made me more desirable to be around.

And if God has so little patience and concern for those he chose (according to them) not to be saved.....then why in the world should I have any good feeling towards them either? If God doesn't love them.....then how can I do so? Do I have the capacity to love more than God? Calvinism collapses therefore on many levels.

That's the main argument. Why would God command us to do something that he's not willing to do. Has many Calvinists have many proof text they use to counter the argument. But when they do they really prove the point did God's not really a loving God. Which goes totally against who he says he is in his word

 

[TomL]

That's the main argument. Why would God command us to do something that he's not willing to do. Has many Calvinists have many proof text they use to counter the argument. But when they do they really prove the point did God's not really a loving God. Which goes totally against who he says he is in his word

It's kind of like the parable of the good Samaritan. Calvinist has God expecting us to behave like the good Samaritan while he acts like the priest and the Levite who pass by the injured without concern

Clearly there is something wrong with that theology

 

[Red Baker]

It's kind of like the parable of the good Samaritan. Calvinist has God expecting us to behave like the good Samaritan while he acts like the priest and the Levite who pass by the injured without concern

Clearly there is something wrong with that theology

Tom, actually, the god you have created in your own heart "is under obligation" to show mercy to those who are at enmity against him, and have rejected and killed his servant sent unto them~they hated his wisdom that is in the word of God, which they considered foolishness in comparison to their own vain, worthless wisdom. Hear the word of God:

Proverbs 1:20-31~"Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets: She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying, How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge? Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you. Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh; When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you. Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me: For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD: They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof. Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices."

Wisdom laughs. Ha-ha! Wisdom mocks. You are not so tough now, fool wisdom will one day say Wisdom laughs and ridicules men suffering calamities and terrorized with fear. There is no cruelty here, just the sound of divine justice making fun of fools and scorners who rejected instruction.

He who laughs last, laughs best. Lady Wisdom and the LORD Jehovah laugh last, and best. But this is no laughing matter for sinners, for these are some of the most sober words in the Bible. Men refusing to listen to instruction will be destroyed without mercy (Pr 1:20-32). In fact, Lady Wisdom declares that those who reject her must love death (Pr 8:36).

Fools and scorners laugh at those who try to teach, correct, and warn them. They hate them for trying to spoil their fun (Pr 9:7-8). When a horrible calamity lands on their heads and painful fear floods their hearts, it is only fitting that Lady Wisdom, who offered to impart wisdom, should be filled with laughter and ridicule as they are destroyed.

This view of wisdom, and the God of wisdom, is not popular in this effeminate and compromising age (II Tim 3:4-5; Heb 12:28-29). Laughter and ridicule at the horrible pain and morbid fear of fools and scorners are right. This is not the god of free willers, and those who preach that God loves sinners just as they are? Most have been taught fables about a make-believe sugar daddy in the sky as their God who loves them?

Pharaoh said, “Who is the LORD?” and rejected Moses (Ex 5:2). After ten horrible plagues, including frogs, lice, and flies, and funerals for all the firstborn of Egypt, he was told Israel had left with much of the nation’s wealth. Driving furiously along the dry seabed of the Red Sea, the chariot wheels came off the best chariot Egypt could produce, and Pharaoh had a few moments to think about his disabled chariot in the midst of sea water looking more and more unstable! Surely heaven rang with God’s laughter joining in with Israel’s mocking song and dance over waterlogged Egyptian bodies (Ex 15:1-21)! Tom, this is the God you are rejecting at the moment.

Space and time do not permit to tell the details of the flood, when those who laughed and mocked at Noah slipped under the waves with gopher wood under their fingernails and their mouths and nasal passages full of water. It was a calamity! It was fearful! But do not think God and Wisdom were wringing their hands in regret. These drowned wretches were intolerable, wicked haters of God and had been disobedient to Noah’s plain preaching for many years (Heb 11:7; I Pet 3:18-20). Now do you know this God, Tom?

God laughs at the judgment of the wicked (Ps 37:13). He holds the heathen in derision (Ps 59:8), and He will laughed derisively when destroying His Son’s enemies (Ps 2:4).

You are misusing the parable of the good Samaritan, attacking God's people.

 

[Red Baker]

I must come back and address one more post for you Tom, and then Rockson has one or two for me, and then I'm finished with this thread.

 

[Rockson]

It's kind of like the parable of the good Samaritan. Calvinist has God expecting us to behave like the good Samaritan while he acts like the priest and the Levite who pass by the injured without concern

And it would be like God saying to humanity, "Now you do a better job at loving more than I. Don't look to me as being a good role model." Now seeing the greatest in the Kingdom of God will be the servant of all that places men above God.

 

[Rockson]

Hear the word of God:

Sure Red I'd appreciate if you'd share some.

Proverbs 1:20-31~"Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets: She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying, How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?

Out of all Bible verses you could share as a Calvinist why would you share this one? It goes totally and absolutely against your position. For God to ask how long will you stay simple implies they most certainly don't have to stay that way that there was a genuine opportunity for the fool to walk in wisdom too. It's the opposite of wisdom for you to suggest anything different.

Turn you at my reproof:

An exhortation from God that they could do so and choose his way or he wouldn't have told them to turn.

 

[TomL]

Tom, actually, the god you have created in your own heart "is under obligation" to show mercy to those who are at enmity against him, and have rejected and killed his servant sent unto them~they hated his wisdom that is in the word of God, which they considered foolishness in comparison to their own vain, worthless wisdom. Hear the word of God:

No he is not under obligation. It is as he choses and commands men to be like him

Matthew 5:43–48 (KJV 1900) — 43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Calvinism misrepresents the nature of God

 

[TomL]

And it would be like God saying to humanity, "Now you do a better job at loving more than I. Don't look to me as being a good role model." Now seeing the greatest in the Kingdom of God will be the servant of all that places men above God.

Yes

Calvinism distorts the nature of God

 

[Rockson]

. There is no cruelty here, just the sound of divine justice making fun of fools and scorners who rejected instruction.

Wanting to believe the best of you I'll seek to believe you don't really go with that. You're just spinning off things here that you haven't through. Parable time:

We're in a hot desert. We line up 5 people in wheel chairs who can't walk and separate them from us and water about 50 feet. We announce to them OK if you want a drink of water you've got to walk over here and get it. And if you don't ;not only are you not going to get a drink we're going to mock you and laugh at you for not doing so....even though you can't that's beside the point.

So in good conscience being truthful and sincere can you tell me that wouldn't be cruel? And yet that's what your Calvinistic theology does.