continued from
post #2,501
Again Christs choice of his apostles
His disciples were given to him by the Father.
John 17:6–12 (NASB 2020) — 6 “I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have followed Your word.
From them he chose 12 to be apostles
Luke 6:13–16 (ESV) — 13 And when day came,
he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.
John 6:70 (ESV) — 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”
John 13:18 (UASV) — 18 I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats My bread has lifted up his heel against Me.’
clearly Christ chose his apostles
Ye have not chosen me. The word here translated chosen is that from which is derived the word elect, and means the same thing. It is frequently thus translated,
Mar. 13:20;
Mat. 24:22,
24,
31;
Col. 3:12. It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles. He says that it was not because they had chosen him to be their teacher and guide, but because he had designated them to be his apostles. See
Jn. 6:70; also
Mat. 4:18–22.11 Albert Barnes,
Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 341.
consider the various choices here
Matthew 22:1–14 (ESV) — 1 And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, 2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, 3 and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. 4 Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.” ’ 5 But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, 6 while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. 7 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9 Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ 10 And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests. 11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 12 And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”
Think of how many times passages like John 15:16 (“You did not choose me; I chose you…”) are used as proof texts for the Calvinistic belief of individual election to salvation when clearly Jesus is speaking to His servants who are being prepared to take the invitation to the rest of the world. They are using Divine Choice #1 as proof for their belief about Divine Choice #3.
Divine Choice #1: The choice of His servants, who were given the task of sending out the invitation.
Divine Choice #2: The choice to send the invitation first to His own and then to all others.
Divine Choice #3: The choice to allow only those clothed in proper wedding garments to enter the feast.
In John 15:16 we have the choice of the apostles
In your closing paragraph, you wrote "
In John 15:16 we have the choice of the apostles" which is true, but you omitted so much treasure given by Lord Jesus according to His sayings, so let's see.
No Christian calls the Word of God "
garbage",
and we find you calling the Word of God “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) that God had me proclaim to you "garbage" about this wonderful Word of God (proof
post #1,116)!!!
Here is more from the same proof post. You propounded "
As for your verses First you simply repeat Christ choice of his disciples but nothing states Christ chose them unconditionally for salvation" respecting John 15:16-19, and again I perceive that you switched to use "disciples" as an in-situ replacement for "apostles", yet you contradict yourself in your self-will because you reviled these angelic majesties by effectively labeling the Apostles as deceivers with your "
Nothing mentioned about Joseph and Matthias being in the audience on that ocassion" as recorded in
post #645 of which your thoughts there daringly contradict angelic majesties testimony of the Apostle Peter "
men who have accompanied us all the time" (Acts 1:21) while Peter was with all the Apostles.
Joseph and Matthias were a part of the audience in the room when Lord Jesus says "
you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "
I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).
So, you call the Apostles all liars because all the remaining Apostles were with the Apostle Peter when Peter testified the Apostolic Right:
| TomL Wrong | | Apostolic Right |
| | |
21 Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have not accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - 22 do not concern yourselves whether from the beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.” 23 So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias.
(TomL 1:21-23) | | 21 Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - 22 beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.” 23 So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias.
(Acts 1:21-23) |
In the upper room occupied by Jesus' disciples who put forward Matthias and Joseph were Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James (Acts 1:13), and these disciples recognized Matthias and Joseph as disciples that were with them from the beginning, and not a single disciple contradicted Peter's prounouncement of "
men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us".
Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more people beyond the Apostles for a minimum total of 13 disciples who are specifically identified at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17; therefore, Lord Jesus Christ's "you" in John 15:16 and John 15:19 extends well beyond the Apostles, in Truth (John 14:6)!
Christ uses "
you" to indicate all Christians in all time are chosen by God alone unto salvation as well as to bring the message of Christ's salvation to the world when King Jesus majestically decrees "
you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "
I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation). Your heart's exclusion of us Christians from Lord Jesus Christ's blessed sayings is your false free-willian philosophy.
Your unscriptural preaching that belief in Christ is a work of man has been repeatedly proven false by the Word of God in this thread.
Every Christian Believing In The Son Whom The Father Has Sent Is The Work Of God
Lord Jesus Christ says in clear, precise, and pure language: “
This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” (John 6:29).
A voice from Heaven was heard, saying "
This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased. Listen to Him" (Matthew 17:5), and we Christians hear Christ.
Let's examine the context of the people's word, and, more importantly, the Word of God speaks the Truth (John 14:6) without human interpretation.
Let’s review the exchange:
they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” So they said to Him, “What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform? Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread out of heaven to eat.’” Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.”
(John 6:28-33)
The people asked about their own work respecting salvation when they inquired “
What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God” (John 6:28), yet Christ rightly removed man’s work from anyplace respecting salvation when He responded “
This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).
The people failed to understand, just like free-willian philosophers, that Lord Jesus removed the work of man from saving belief/faith with the Lord’s marvelous sayings of “
This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” (John 6:29). Do not be deceived, "
Listen to Him" (Matthew 17:5).
The people followed up by asking/injecting the work of man, again, with “
Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness” (John 6:31) in a manner that free-willian philosophers listen to the people instead of "
Listen to Him" (Matthew 17:5).
The Lord shifts the focus from man’s purported control to God’s Sovereign control, this second time in the same exchange, with “
Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.”
(John 6:32-33). "
Listen to Him" (Matthew 17:5).
Behold, the Word of God establishes that faith/belief is given by God without any contribution by man (John 6:29) and, in like manner, life is given by
the bread of God without any contribution by man (John 6:32-33).
PRAISE JESUS FOR HIS LOVINGKINDNESS!!!
In Truth (John 14:6), the Christ of us Christians intensifies that God works man regarding saving faith/belief, not man working, but truly
the Bread of Life (John 6:35) as exclusive Savior!
Free-willian Philosophers convey things like “
They obviously understood jesus to be saying what God requires of you is that you believe” (
the word of TomL, see post #1,818) about
the people recorded in John 6:28-33 in order for the free-willian heart’s treasure (Matthew 15:16-19) to justify adulterating the Word of God resulting in “
This is NOT the work of God BUT THIS IS THE WORK OF MAN, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (the traditions of man, see Matthew 15:9).
The Lord uses the continuing exchange to illumine the people's, and free-willian, ignorance. The Word of God is precise and pure “
This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” (John 6:29) - "
Listen to Him" (Matthew 17:5).
This examination needs to expand to the larger passage of "
Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal" (John 6:27), but this would be incomplete without the intervening passage culminating with "
Then they said to Him, 'Lord, always give us this bread.' Jesus said to them, 'I am the Bread of Life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst'" (John 6:34-35).
Do not be confused about the "
who comes to Me" in John 6:35 because the Lord says "
he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21), so we Christians work for God because God wrings our work/deeds out of us!
In John 6:27 and John 6:34-35, Jesus says He is our Christian's
food (John 6:27), our Christian
Bread of Life (John 6:35). "
Listen to Him" (Matthew 17:5).
The Christ of us Christians says "
I am the Living Bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh" (John 6:51).
We Christians
work (John 6:27) for
the Bread of Life (John 6:35) according to the Power of God (John 3:21), so we proclaim the glorious King of the Kingdom of God in the Power of God to the world; therefore, this "proclaiming" is working for the food enduring to eternal life (John 6:27). Christ gives Himself,
the Bread of Life, to us Christians for we Christians partake in the food of the Body and Blood of Christ, so our wonderful Leader sustains and strengthens us for the works prepared for us beforehand by God to the Glory of God! God has set His seal on us Christians, that is, our seal is our very believing in the Son whom the Father has sent by the Grace of God for the Glory of God!
Praise the Lord for He explains our Christian
work (John 6:27) is to eat the
Bread of Life (John 6:35, John 6:51). Christ says "
work" "
for the food" (John 6:27) which means "work for Christ" as in fruit of the Spirit of the Living God (see bearing fruit in John 3:21 and John 15:5 and John 15:16 and Galatians 5:22-23), so Christ says not that believing in Christ is the work of man, so this means free-willian philosopher's "
He told them there was a certain type of work they were to do and it was the work of faith so stop trying to twist the passage and say it wasn't so" (
the word of Rockson regarding John 6:27, see post #1,847) is false according to the Word of God!
Free-willian Philosophers are under the delusion that "
Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal" (tthe Word of God, John 6:27) in their hearts translates to "
Do not work for the food which perishes, but YOU HAVE THE ABILITY IN YOUR OWN INITIATIVE TO WORK for the food which endures to eternal life, SO YOU MUST CHOOSE WHETHER TO ACCEPT THE FOOD THAT the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal" (the word of free-willians) in spite of the Word of God sayings “
And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right” (
Luke 12:57) and
“
you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (
John 15:16) and “
I chose you out of the world” (
John 15:19).
Free-willian's hearts even subtract "
which the Son of Man will give to you" (John 6:27) about the food for which Jesus says "
Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life" (John 6:27). Jesus clearly states the righteous work of man is Fruit of the Spirit because the food is given by God to man which is another declaration about the exclusive power of God in the salvation of man. A crucial concept established by Jesus in John 6:27 is that the only people to receive Jesus' food are the people to whom Jesus gives the food, but free-willian philosophy ends up with people in hell who are failures of "
the food which endures to eternal life" (John 6:27). This paragraph's explanation is all in the recorded Word of God in John 6:27 without stepping to another verse. "
Listen to Him" (Matthew 17:5).
The Word in John 6:27 refers to the man's work which is truly the act of God in man; on the other hand, the Word in John 6:29 refers to man's belief which is truly the act of God in man.
In the first moment (John 6:27), Lord Jesus explains the outward evidence of us Christians controlled by our loving Father in Heaven, and in the second moment (John 6:29), Jesus explains the inward event of us Christians controlled by our loving Father in Heaven, and this Father declares "
This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased. Listen to Him" (Matthew 17:5).
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE AUTHOR AND PERFECTER OF THE ONE FAITH!!!
