An Article on free will

[Theophilus]

Just a thought @Rockson

It has been observed that individuals who once adhered to Calvinism and its sound doctrines, but later chose to leave, often face significant challenges in maintaining their theological stability. Calvinism, with its well-defined doctrines and rigorous theological framework, provides a strong foundation for many believers. When individuals depart from these teachings, they may struggle to find an equally solid grounding elsewhere.

This instability can manifest in various ways. Some former Calvinists find themselves in a state of doctrinal confusion, unsure of what to believe and how to interpret scripture without the clear guidance they previously followed. This confusion can lead to a lack of spiritual growth, as they may become preoccupied with searching for new theological perspectives instead of deepening their faith and understanding within a consistent framework.

Moreover, the transition away from Calvinism can result in an unfruitful spiritual life. Without the structured doctrines and disciplined approach to theology that Calvinism offers, these individuals might find it challenging to cultivate a fruitful and productive spiritual walk. Their efforts may become scattered, and they may spend an inordinate amount of time online or in other forums, seeking out new doctrines and teachings to fill the void left by their departure from Calvinism.

It is important to approach this topic with sensitivity and understanding. People leave Calvinism for various reasons, and their journeys are personal and complex. However, it is also crucial to recognize the potential difficulties they may encounter in maintaining doctrinal clarity and spiritual fruitfulness outside the Calvinist framework. Encouraging a thoughtful and respectful dialogue about these challenges can help support those who are navigating this transition, promoting a deeper and more stable faith journey.

This version provides a balanced and respectful discussion, acknowledging the potential difficulties faced by those who leave Calvinism without resorting to harsh language.

Johann.

I can't think of one person on this forum that fits the description outlined in your post. All the people that I know that have been fortunate enough to leave Calvinism behind are happy joyous and free.

When set aside my Calvinist viewpoint, I could read the Scriptures without the pressure of trying to reconcile passages that contradicted my former Calvinist convictions. I learned to take warnings at face value without dismissing them or explaining them away. This is the biggest difficulty many Calvinists face — they assume TULIP to be true and then struggle with many passages (like the warning passage of Hebrews I told about). Calvinists simply cannot interpret all Scripture plainly.

 

[Johann]

It's so funny, he follows Calvin's theology, but he wants to claim those opposed to Calvin's teaching have Calvin as their God.

Of course, he simply ignores all the other voices rebutting his view.

I can't think of one person on this forum that fits the description outlined in your post. All the people that I know that have been fortunate enough to leave Calvinism behind are happy joyous and free.

When set aside my Calvinist viewpoint, I could read the Scriptures without the pressure of trying to reconcile passages that contradicted my former Calvinist convictions. I learned to take warnings at face value without dismissing them or explaining them away. This is the biggest difficulty many Calvinists face — they assume TULIP to be true and then struggle with many passages (like the warning passage of Hebrews I told about). Calvinists simply cannot interpret all Scripture plainly.

I'm not speaking of people on this Forum-but in real time @Theophilus
Thanks
Johann.

 

[Theophilus]

I'm not speaking of people on this Forum-but in real time @Theophilus
Thanks
Johann.

We are in real time. Let me ask you a question how many People that have left Calvinism have you studied and see what they go through in their day-to-day life with their emotions and their feelings? The struggles that they have that you mentioned people have shared this with you?

 

[Johann]

It's so funny, he follows Calvin's theology, but he wants to claim those opposed to Calvin's teaching have Calvin as their God.

Of course, he simply ignores all the other voices rebutting his view.

I can't think of one person on this forum that fits the description outlined in your post. All the people that I know that have been fortunate enough to leave Calvinism behind are happy joyous and free.

When set aside my Calvinist viewpoint, I could read the Scriptures without the pressure of trying to reconcile passages that contradicted my former Calvinist convictions. I learned to take warnings at face value without dismissing them or explaining them away. This is the biggest difficulty many Calvinists face — they assume TULIP to be true and then struggle with many passages (like the warning passage of Hebrews I told about). Calvinists simply cannot interpret all Scripture plainly.

I'm not speaking of people on this Forum-but in real time @Theophilus
Thanks
Johann.

We are in real time. Let me ask you a question how many People that have left Calvinism have you studied and see what they go through in their day-to-day life with their emotions and their feelings? The struggles that they have that you mentioned people have shared this with you?

Speaking from experience-in South Africa and no, this is not "real time" online.
Thanks
Johann.

 

[Theophilus]

I'm not speaking of people on this Forum-but in real time @Theophilus
Thanks
Johann.

Speaking from experience-in South Africa and no, this is not "real time" online.
Thanks
Johann.

Forget the real time let's focus on this.

Let me ask you a question how many People that have left Calvinism have you studied and see what they go through in their day-to-day life with their emotions and their feelings? The struggles that they have that you mentioned people have shared this with you?

 

[Johann]

Forget the real time let's focus on this.

Let me ask you a question how many People that have left Calvinism have you studied and see what they go through in their day-to-day life with their emotions and their feelings? The struggles that they have that you mentioned people have shared this with you?

Speaking from experience-in South Africa.
Thanks
Johann.

 

[Theophilus]

Speaking from experience-in South Africa.
Thanks
Johann.

Right I realize that but I'm Talking about a little more detail how do you find out what these people are going through. Do you like interview them or do they have meetings like alcoholics Anonymous except for recovering calvinist? How does it work how do you get that information?

You posted a pretty detailed description of what people go through when they leave communism and I'm just asking you how you've come to your conclusions. What are these experiences in South Africa that led you to this information?

 

[Johann]

Right I realize that but I'm Talking about a little more detail how do you find out what these people are going through. Do you like interview them or do they have meetings like alcoholics Anonymous except for recovering calvinist? How does it work how do you get that information?

You posted a pretty detailed description of what people go through when they leave communism and I'm just asking you how you've come to your conclusions. What are these experiences in South Africa that led you to this information?

Right I realize that but I'm Talking about a little more detail how do you find out what these people are going through do you like interview them or do they have meetings like alcoholics Anonymous except for recovering calvinist? How does it work how do you get that information?

You posted a pretty detailed description of what people go through when they leave communism and I'm just asking you how you've come to your conclusions. What are these experiences in South Africa that led you to this information?

Home and outreach meetings.
At the moment busy watching the elections and who is going to form a coalition with whom-in South Africa.
Thanks
Johann.

 

[TomL]

"Jesus answered and said to them, 'This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.'"


Greek Text:
"ἀπεκρίθη Ἰησοῦς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς, τοῦτό ἐστιν τὸ ἔργον τοῦ θεοῦ, ἵνα πιστεύητε εἰς ὃν ἀπέστειλεν ἐκεῖνος."
Morphological and Syntactical Analysis:
Key Terms and Morphology:
ἀπεκρίθη (apekrithē):

Form: Aorist passive indicative, third person singular of ἀποκρίνομαι.
Translation: "answered."
Meaning: The aorist tense indicates a completed action, with Jesus responding definitively to their question.
Ἰησοῦς (Iēsous):

Form: Nominative singular.
Translation: "Jesus."
Meaning: Subject of the verb, highlighting Jesus as the speaker.
εἶπεν (eipen):

Form: Aorist active indicative, third person singular of λέγω.
Translation: "said."
Meaning: Another aorist tense verb, indicating a definitive statement made by Jesus.
αὐτοῖς (autois):

Form: Dative plural of αὐτός.
Translation: "to them."
Meaning: Indicates the indirect object, referring to the people Jesus is addressing.
τοῦτό (touto):

Form: Nominative neuter singular of οὗτος.
Translation: "this."
Meaning: Functions as the subject of the clause, referring to the action being defined.
ἐστιν (estin):

Form: Present active indicative, third person singular of εἰμί.
Translation: "is."
Meaning: Present tense verb indicating the current and continuing state of being.
τὸ ἔργον (to ergon):

Form: Nominative neuter singular of ἔργον.
Translation: "the work."
Meaning: Subject complement that defines the nature of the task or duty in question.
τοῦ θεοῦ (tou theou):

Form: Genitive singular of θεός.
Translation: "of God."
Meaning: Possessive genitive indicating that the work is attributed to God.
ἵνα (hina):

Form: Conjunction.
Translation: "that."
Meaning: Introduces a purpose or result clause, often indicating the reason for the preceding statement.
πιστεύητε (pisteuēte):

Form: Present active subjunctive, second person plural of πιστεύω.
Translation: "you believe."
Meaning: The subjunctive mood, used here to express purpose, intention, or command.
εἰς (eis):

Form: Preposition.
Translation: "in."
Meaning: Indicates the direction of belief, pointing towards the object of faith.
ὃν (hon):

Form: Relative pronoun, accusative masculine singular.
Translation: "whom."
Meaning: Refers to the person being sent, Jesus.
ἀπέστειλεν (apesteilen):

Form: Aorist active indicative, third person singular of ἀποστέλλω.
Translation: "has sent."
Meaning: Aorist tense indicating a past, completed action of sending.
ἐκεῖνος (ekeinos):

Form: Demonstrative pronoun, nominative masculine singular.
Translation: "He."
Meaning: Refers to God the Father, emphasizing His role in sending Jesus.
Syntactical Analysis:
Structure:

The verse is structured as a response from Jesus (ἀπεκρίθη Ἰησοῦς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς) with a central clause (τοῦτό ἐστιν τὸ ἔργον τοῦ θεοῦ) followed by a purpose clause introduced by ἵνα (ἵνα πιστεύητε εἰς ὃν ἀπέστειλεν ἐκεῖνος).
Main Clause:

"This is the work of God": The subject (τοῦτό) and the predicate nominative (τὸ ἔργον τοῦ θεοῦ) are linked by the present verb ἐστιν, asserting what constitutes God's work.
Purpose Clause:

"that you believe in Him whom He has sent": The conjunction ἵνα introduces the purpose of the work. The verb πιστεύητε, in the subjunctive mood, indicates the intended action or state, directed towards the relative pronoun ὃν, referring to Jesus, with the verb ἀπέστειλεν providing the action performed by ἐκεῖνος (God the Father).
Theological Implications:
Divine Initiative and Human Response:

The verse emphasizes that believing in Jesus is the primary work God requires. This belief is not merely intellectual assent but involves trust and commitment to Jesus as the one sent by God.
Centrality of Faith:

The passage highlights faith in Jesus as the essential response to God’s revelation. It underscores that the primary "work" God desires is faith, aligning with the broader Johannine theme that eternal life is received through belief in Jesus (cf. John 3:16).
God’s Sovereign Sending:

The reference to God sending Jesus (ὃν ἀπέστειλεν ἐκεῖνος) underscores the divine initiative in salvation. Jesus is portrayed as the authorized representative of God, carrying out the divine mission.
Broader Context:
John 6:28:

Text: "Therefore they said to Him, 'What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?'"
Analysis: The crowd’s question sets the stage for Jesus’ response in verse 29. They are focused on performing actions that please God, but Jesus redirects their focus to the fundamental "work" of belief.
John 3:16-18:

Text: "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
Analysis: This passage complements John 6:29 by emphasizing belief in Jesus as the pathway to eternal life and salvation. It reinforces the centrality of faith in the Johannine theology.
John 5:24:

Text: "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."
Analysis: Highlights the immediate and transformative effect of believing in Jesus, providing assurance of eternal life and avoiding judgment.
Conclusion:
John 6:29 encapsulates a critical theological assertion: the essential work that God requires from humanity is to believe in Jesus, the one He has sent. This belief is a dynamic, trust-filled relationship with Jesus, recognizing Him as the divinely appointed Savior. The passage emphasizes the necessity of faith over works, aligning with the broader Johannine emphasis on belief as the means to eternal life. By focusing on the morphological and syntactical elements, we see a clear and powerful message: salvation and eternal life are found in Jesus, and the work God calls us to is to trust in Him fully.

This may be beyond your pay grade.

Nope its not and you simply affirmed what I stated previously

 

[Johann]

Nope its not and you simply affirmed what I stated previously

For now-
J.

 

[TomL]

Greek Text (John 15:16):
"οὐχ ὑμεῖς με ἐξελέξασθε, ἀλλ’ ἐγὼ ἐξελεξάμην ὑμᾶς."

English Translation:
"You did not choose Me, but I chose you."

Morphological Analysis:
οὐχ (ouch):

Form: Negative particle.
Function: Negates the verb that follows.
Translation: "not."
ὑμεῖς (hymeis):

Form: Personal pronoun, nominative plural.
Function: Subject of the verb.
Translation: "you."
με (me):

Form: Personal pronoun, accusative singular.
Function: Direct object of the verb.
Translation: "Me."
ἐξελέξασθε (exelexasthe):

Form: Verb, aorist middle indicative, 2nd person plural of "ἐκλέγομαι" (eklegomai).
Root: ἐκλέγω (eklegō), meaning "to choose" or "to select."
Translation: "chose."
Voice: Middle (indicating the action is performed by the subject on themselves or for their benefit).
Tense: Aorist (simple past action).
ἀλλ’ (all'):

Form: Conjunction.
Function: Introduces a contrast.
Translation: "but."
ἐγὼ (egō):

Form: Personal pronoun, nominative singular.
Function: Subject of the verb.
Translation: "I."
ἐξελεξάμην (exelexamēn):

Form: Verb, aorist middle indicative, 1st person singular of "ἐκλέγομαι" (eklegomai).
Root: ἐκλέγω (eklegō), meaning "to choose" or "to select."
Translation: "chose."
Voice: Middle.
Tense: Aorist.
ὑμᾶς (hymas):

Form: Personal pronoun, accusative plural.
Function: Direct object of the verb.
Translation: "you."
Syntactic Force:
οὐχ ὑμεῖς με ἐξελέξασθε (ouch hymeis me exelexasthe):

The phrase starts with the negation "οὐχ" to emphasize that the action described did not occur as might be expected.
"ὑμεῖς" is placed in the nominative case to explicitly indicate "you" as the subject.
"με" is in the accusative case to show that "Me" (Jesus) is the direct object.
The verb "ἐξελέξασθε" is in the aorist middle, indicating that the disciples did not choose Jesus for themselves.
The overall force of this clause is to negate the notion that the disciples were the agents who initiated the choice of following Jesus.
ἀλλ’ ἐγὼ ἐξελεξάμην ὑμᾶς (all' egō exelexamēn hymas):

The conjunction "ἀλλ’" introduces a strong contrast to the previous clause.
"ἐγὼ" is emphasized by being explicitly stated as the subject ("I").
The verb "ἐξελεξάμην" is also in the aorist middle, indicating Jesus' action of choosing the disciples for Himself.
"ὑμᾶς" in the accusative case shows that the disciples are the direct objects of Jesus' action.
The syntactic force here is to affirm positively that Jesus is the one who chose the disciples, reversing the expected action from the disciples to Himself.
Exegetical Insights:
Divine Initiative:

The verse emphasizes the divine initiative in the relationship between Jesus and His disciples. They did not come to Him by their own choice; rather, He chose them. This underlines the sovereignty and grace of Jesus in selecting His followers.
Middle Voice Usage:

The use of the middle voice in both verbs ("ἐξελέξασθε" and "ἐξελεξάμην") indicates that the action of choosing is reflexive or for the benefit of the subject. Jesus chose the disciples for His own purpose and benefit, which aligns with the broader theological theme of divine election.
Aorist Tense:

The aorist tense suggests a definite action that took place in the past. This reflects a specific moment or decision by Jesus to choose His disciples, highlighting the decisiveness of His action.
Contrasting Clauses:

The structure of the sentence with the strong contrast ("οὐχ...ἀλλ’") serves to sharply distinguish between the disciples' lack of initiative and Jesus' active choice. This contrast reinforces the message of dependency on divine choice rather than human initiative.

In summary, John 15:16 in the Greek text underscores the theme of divine selection, where Jesus clearly states that the disciples' relationship with Him is not based on their choice but His. The morphological and syntactic elements work together to emphasize Jesus' sovereign initiative and the purposeful nature of His choice.

You have to deal with the text-as it stands written-since @Kermos is definitely "on course" and a bit of information-Kermos is NOT a Calvinist.

Here is my opinion: People who lean towards Reformed theology are more aligned with sound doctrines compared to those who are undecided. Those who were Calvinists and had sound doctrine but later left the "camp" have become unstable and unfruitful, often spending most of their time online trying to find doctrine.

No need to reply.
J.

Your opinion ignored the fact that Christ's disciples were given to him by God the father and from them he chose the 12 apostles

John 17:6–12 (NASB 2020) — 6 “I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have followed Your word.

Luke 6:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;

Acts 1:2 (ESV) — 2 until the day when he was taken up, after he had given commands through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen.

John 6:70 (KJV 1900) — 70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

In John 15:16, Jesus is not talking about choosing people to salvation, nor is he speaking generally of believers. Rather, he is talking specifically of picking his apostles and preparing them for their ministry, all of which Jesus accomplished during his earthly ministry. There is nothing here about selecting people for salvation before creation.
Smelley, Hutson. Deconstructing Calvinism: A Biblical Analysis and Refutation (p. 184). Hutson Smelley. Kindle Edition.



16. οὐχ ὑμεῖς. Not ye chose Me, but I chose you. Ὑμεῖς and ἐγώ are emphatic. Ἐκλέγειν refers to their election to be Apostles (6:70, 13:18; Acts 1:2); therefore the aorist as referring to a definite act in the past should be preserved. So also ἔθηκα, I appointed you, i. e. assigned you to a definite post, as in 2 Tim. 1:11; Heb. 1:2. This is better than ‘I ordained,’ as A. V. here and 1 Tim. 2:7, ‘ordain’ having become a technical term in ecclesiastical language. Comp. Acts 13:47, 20:28; 1 Cor. 12:28. The repetition of ὑμεῖς throughout the verse emphasizes the personal responsibility of the Apostles.11 A. Plummer, The Gospel according to S. John (Cambridge Greek Testament for Schools and Colleges; Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1896), 286.

In any case election to salvation is not in view according even Calvin

True, the subject now in hand is not the ordinary election of believers, by which they are adopted to be the children of God, but that special election, by which he set apart his disciples to the office of preaching the Gospel11 John Calvin and William Pringle, Commentary on the Gospel according to John (vol. 2; Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2010), 119.

Ye have not chosen me. The word here translated chosen is that from which is derived the word elect, and means the same thing. It is frequently thus translated, Mar. 13:20; Mat. 24:22, 24, 31; Col. 3:12. It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles. He says that it was not because they had chosen him to be their teacher and guide, but because he had designated them to be his apostles. See Jn. 6:70; also Mat. 4:18–22.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 341.



But I chose you (ἀλλʼ ἐγω ἐξελεξαμην ὑμας [all’ egō exelexamēn humas]). First aorist middle indicative of ἐκλεγω [eklegō]. See this same verb and tense used for the choice of the disciples by Christ (6:70; 13:18; 15:19). Jesus recognizes his own responsibility in the choice after a night of prayer (Luke 6:13).11 A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 15:16.

 

[TomL]

For now-
J.

So too little too late

 

[TomL]

I'm not speaking of people on this Forum-but in real time @Theophilus
Thanks
Johann.

This has what to do with me?

 

[Johann]

This has what to do with me?

Nope.

 

[TomL]

Nope.

I assume that means nothing

 

[Johann]

I assume that means nothing

Correct.

 

[TomL]

Correct.

So why did you include it?

 

[civic]

Just a thought @Rockson

It has been observed that individuals who once adhered to Calvinism and its sound doctrines, but later chose to leave, often face significant challenges in maintaining their theological stability. Calvinism, with its well-defined doctrines and rigorous theological framework, provides a strong foundation for many believers. When individuals depart from these teachings, they may struggle to find an equally solid grounding elsewhere.

This instability can manifest in various ways. Some former Calvinists find themselves in a state of doctrinal confusion, unsure of what to believe and how to interpret scripture without the clear guidance they previously followed. This confusion can lead to a lack of spiritual growth, as they may become preoccupied with searching for new theological perspectives instead of deepening their faith and understanding within a consistent framework.

Moreover, the transition away from Calvinism can result in an unfruitful spiritual life. Without the structured doctrines and disciplined approach to theology that Calvinism offers, these individuals might find it challenging to cultivate a fruitful and productive spiritual walk. Their efforts may become scattered, and they may spend an inordinate amount of time online or in other forums, seeking out new doctrines and teachings to fill the void left by their departure from Calvinism.

It is important to approach this topic with sensitivity and understanding. People leave Calvinism for various reasons, and their journeys are personal and complex. However, it is also crucial to recognize the potential difficulties they may encounter in maintaining doctrinal clarity and spiritual fruitfulness outside the Calvinist framework. Encouraging a thoughtful and respectful dialogue about these challenges can help support those who are navigating this transition, promoting a deeper and more stable faith journey.

This version provides a balanced and respectful discussion, acknowledging the potential difficulties faced by those who leave Calvinism without resorting to harsh language.

Johann.

Projecting

 

[Rockson]

Just a thought @Rockson

It has been observed that individuals who once adhered to Calvinism and its sound doctrines, but later chose to leave, often face significant challenges in maintaining their theological stability.

Sound doctrines? Sorry but that's a false assertion you're making.

Calvinism, with its well-defined doctrines and rigorous theological framework

They have none of that at least when it comes to T.U.L.I.P.

Some former Calvinists find themselves in a state of doctrinal confusion, unsure of what to believe and how to interpret scripture without the clear guidance they previously followed.

They had no clear guidance preciously. Sorry but that is a delusion. You may say that's merely my opinion and fine but that's my thoughts based I believe on the word of God.

This version provides a balanced and respectful discussion, acknowledging the potential difficulties faced by those who leave Calvinism without resorting to harsh language.

Sorry but you're way, way, way, way to biased in the words you're saying. And much appreciated if you'd please refrain from saying that Calvinist are constantly confronted by everyone who challenges their positions with harsh language. Granted you're going to get that on the net always by SOME and maybe that needs adjusted with some by don't be so blatantly biased that you can't see equally the same type of approach employed from people on the other side. Granted this can be sad to see from all but don't have tunnel vision.

 

[Kermos]

Lets look at the term in a critical text

John 12:47 (ESV) — 47 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.


Christ does not judge any unbelievers because he came to save the world

From this verse we see any unbeliever is part of the world Christ came to save

So your doctrine of limited atonement is shown to be false

Lets look at a verse parallel, to John 12:47 with a bit of context

John 3:16–17 (ESV) — 16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

God came to save the world having loved the world and given his son for it

Thus we see Christ died for all

Lets look at the term "world" in a directly adjacent critical text to John 3:16-17 of which you quoted:

17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(John 3:17-18)
​

Clearly, unbelievers of the world are judged as their default state of being.

You jumped to John 12:47 which is a different dialog than John 3:1-21, so let's look at your thoughts in detail.

Your heart set the "world" equal to "unbelievers" when you wrote "Christ does not judge any unbelievers because he came to save the world" along with your closing paragraph of "Thus we see Christ died for all"; more specifically, your heart equivocates "world" into a thing of "all unbelievers who call in their own initiative speaking their self-willed change of heart from unbeliever to believer in Me".

Your adulteration of the Holy Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

The word of TomL		The Word of God
TomL 12:47 (TSV) - 47 If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save all unbelievers who call in their own initiative speaking their self-willed change of heart from unbeliever to believer in Me.		John 12:47-49 (NASB) - 47 If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day. 49 “For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.

And so go your adulterations of precious and Holy Word of God again and again and again.

See your heart has your "world" of unbelievers being superior to Jesus because your unbelievers speak on their own initiative in contrast to Jesus who says "I did not speak on My own initiative" (John 12:49).

Another dark consequence of your free-willian philosophy "Thus we see Christ died for all" is that your heart's treasure renders Christ's death an abject failure for every unbeliever who dies as an unbeliever because Christ's coverage of that unbeliever's sin failed to cover that unbeliever's sin.

According to your Free-willian Prophecy, the following represents dead in sin unbelievers:

• if Bob chooses to believe in Christ, then God must reward Bob with eternal life.
• if Alice chooses to believe not in Christ, then God must punish Alice with eternal damnation.
• The conclusion: the causative factor for a person obtaining eternal life is whether a person “chooses to believe in Christ”.

So man is the cause of eternal life because man goes to hell without man choosing to believe in Christ.

Since I previously told you that I believe in complete atonement (proof post #1,802), then your nonsensical "So your doctrine of limited atonement is shown to be false" is foolishness.

Your belief in unlimited atonement results in Christ being a false prophet because Jesus fails to save all that he came to save.

Your free-willian philosophy is false and in a state of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33) because the dead do not cause themselves to have life.

The word "world" in John 3:16 is the population of persons who currently are or in the future will be imparted the work of God unto salvation that is faith/belief in Lord Jesus Christ whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE LORD GOD ALMIGHTY!!!