The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
`Because of this I have said to you -- No one is able to come unto me, if it may not have been given him from my Father.'
An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
The traditions of man (Matthew 15:9) is "Obvious;y all gentiles have not repented so it is not that God caused all the gentiles to repent" (the word of TomL).
The Word of God is “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (Matthew 11:25).
In Truth (John 14:6), since "all gentiles have not repented", then the unrepentant Gentiles are among the people of whom Lord Jesus says “You have hidden these things from” (Matthew 11:25).
Furthermore, Spiritually, since "God causes gentiles to repent", then the repentant Gentiles are among the people of whom Lord Jesus says “You” “have revealed them to babes” (Matthew 11:25).
Your heart's treasure of "Gentiles are not even considered in mat 11:25" and "And in context Jesus is speaking of the jewish leaders" adulterates Lord Jesus Christ's wonderful word of “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (Matthew 11:25) into the traditions of man "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent jewish leaders only but not including the Gentile wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes excluding the Gentiles while at the same time including only jewish leaders" (the word of TomL). You reject Lord and God Jesus Christ's self definition because Jesus says God controls everyone who repents (Matthew 11:25) in Truth (John 14:6).
It's amazing, the Jewish leaders are specifically mentioned zero times in Matthew 11:1-30 (the whole chapter), yet you conjured up "And in context Jesus is speaking of the jewish leaders", so your exclusive context of "Jesus is speaking of the jewish leaders" is blatantly false. You do not receive Lord and God Jesus Christ's sayings of “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (Matthew 11:25).
Lord and God Jesus Christ says“He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day” (John 12:48).
Furthermore, your "The invitation is to humble oneself and find rest" confuses your "invitation" for the loving commandment of Lord and God Jesus Christ's “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light" (Matthew 11:28-30).
See the “Come to Me" (Matthew 11:28) command is governed by God because the Word of God declares "he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21).
Just as God has caused me to post:
The only way for free-willian philosophers to acheive free-will is for free-willians to add to the Word of God, and it is written “do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar” (Proverbs 30:6).
This passage does not support total depravity, but instead, directly refutes it because Jesus teaches that everyone is capable of believing whether or not they have done so (e.g., Tyre and Sidon).
Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they without any intervention by God would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. Nevertheless I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you.
(the word of TomL adulterating the Word of God)
Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. Nevertheless I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you.
(the Word of God, Matthew 11:21-22)
The traditions of man (Matthew 15:9) is "God enables repentance though his message of repentance and his long suffering" (clearly, you free-willian use the word "enables" to indicate everyone everywhere in all time has the ability to repent).
The Word of God is “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (Matthew 11:25).
Apostolic testimony is in accord with Jesus’ words with thier saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life” (Acts 11:18); therefore, Jesus’ words in Matthew 11:25 state that God exclusively causes man to repent.
God grants repentance though the Word of God (John 14:6, Romans 1:16) and the blessed patience of God brings every single one of God's chosen persons to repentance (2 Peter 3:9).
The repentance mentioned by Paul (Acts 20:18–21) is graciously caused by the Word of God “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (Matthew 11:25).
The faith mentioned by Paul (Acts 20:18–21) is graciously caused by the Author and Perfecter of the faith "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (the Word of God, John 6:29).
The repent mentioned by Paul (Acts 26:16–20) is graciously caused by the Word of God “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (Matthew 11:25).
The faith mentioned by Paul (Acts 26:16–20) is graciously caused by the Author and Perfecter of the faith "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (the Word of God, John 6:29).
The works mentioned by Paul (Acts 26:16–20) is graciously wrought by God “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (John 3:21).
Apparently, “these things” (Matthew 11:25) of this rhetorical question "not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance" (Romans 2:4) are “hidden” (Matthew 11:25) from you.
The traditions of man (Matthew 15:9) is "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should cause themselves come to repentance" (the word of TomL).
Apostolic testimony is "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9).
The Word of God is “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (Matthew 11:25).
Apparently, you are so very “wise and intelligent” (Matthew 11:25) that you are almighty to the degree that you “have revealed” (Matthew 11:25) to God that which Almighty God did not know.
You see, you preach that God is weak for Peter wrote that God is "not willing that any should perish", and you accurately wrote "all gentiles do not repent", so your heart's treasure is that God’s will is inconsequential, fallible, incapable, and faulty because God wills that no man perish yet man perishes.
The Lord God Almighty has me here proclaiming the strength and marvelousness of Jesus Christ who is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any of the presently born of God (2 Peter 1:1) as well as of the future born of God should perish, but that all the born of God should come to repentance; therefore, my heart's treasure is that according to God’s will none of the Assembly of God will perish, and this goes for God's chosen persons now and until the time of the Gentiles concludes.
So, she couldn't repent on her own per Revelation 2:21.
But, you say people can repent on their own, yet you fail to present a single verse that shows even one person repenting in that person's own initiative.
The traditions of man (Matthew 15:9) is "not by producing repentance into man" (your final paragraph with your ambiguous "effectually infusing" replaced by the precise "producing").
Apostolic testimony is in accord with Jesus’ words (Matthew 11:25) with the Apostle Paul's "the sorrow that is according to [the will] [of] God produces a repentance without regret, [leading] to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death" (2 Corinthians 7:10, NASB1995).
You preach of your ability to repent before you are born of God, so you, arminianperspectives, believe that you can repent while you are still of the world (the same thing as "not born of God"), but your sorrow of the world produces death (2 Corinthians 7:10).
Your spirit promotes yourself to almighty god status meanwhile demoting Almighty God down to Broken God.
Your heart makes false statements about God. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE HIM WHO GENEROUSLY GRANTS REPENTANCE!!!
Me and you need to sit down, together, far from interference, and have a dialogue brother--and search the Scriptures.
Johann
Let see I posted
the first problem is this has nothing to do with the context of the verse under discussion
Acts 11:18 (KJV 1900) — 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
So Mat 11:25 is irrelevant here
Again still trying to discuss the verse under discussion with a foreign context
Mat 25 is addressing the Jews who rejected Christ while he was on earth
It has not a thing to do with the gentiles after the resurrection, after the coming of the Spirit, and after the birth of the new testament church
Begs the question and assumes what you need to prove
No they are not considered in Mat 11:25, but you want to discuss the gentiles and drawn conclusions about them from a passage that does not even discuss them.
does that not sound a little bit illogical
Hello
Matthew 10:5–6 (KJV 1900) — 5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Matthew 11:1 (KJV 1900) — 1 And it came to pass, when Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples, he departed thence to teach and to preach in their cities.
Ready to admit error?
When you wrote "You must eat the flesh drink the blood before you can have life", then you adulterated the Word of God into "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you first eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves" or another way "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have not been born of God" and away from Lord Jesus Christ's pure saying of "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves" (John 6:53). Your heart's treasure establishes sequential causality; in contrast, Lord Jesus Christ establishes are Christian heart's treasure of correlation and fruit of the Spirit (John 3:21).
You cannot joyfully partake in the precious Body and Blood of Christ if you are not aware of the true Christ because the Word of God says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3).
Your opening question was made null and void by the Word of God before you were born of flesh.
You believe you cause yourself to be born, that is man causes himself to be "born of God", based upon your writing "John 20:31 logically, you must believe before you have life" because you use "and that believing you have life in His name" (John 20:31) as a sequence of events instead of correlated events. No person causes oneself to be born, so your belief is confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33).
You defy logic and deny spiritual Truth (John 14:6) because your hearts treasure is that the spiritually unborn person causes that same spiritually unborn person to become a spiritually born of God person; however, God has me here proclaiming to you that the spiritually unborn person is unaware of the true Lord Jesus Christ (John 3:3), so the spiritually unborn person is incapable of believing in the Son whom the Father has sent unto eternal life (John 6:29, John 20:31).
You, in your question, blindly ignore Christ's saying "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves" (John 6:53).
Your opening question was made null and void by the Word of God before you were born of flesh.
Salvation is no laughing matter, TomL.
If a person is not alive in Christ (John 3:3-8, Ephesians 2:4-10), then the person is dead in sin (John 3:18, Ephesians 2:1-3).
The Gentiles mentioned in Ephesians 2:11–12 are the very same people who Christ MADE one with true Israel as per the Apostle Paul's writing of "but now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who made both one" (Ephesians 2:13-14).
It is no mystery that you ceased your quotation at Ephesians 2:12 before the glory was given to God in Ephesians 2:13-14. Free-william Philosophy steals the glory of God!
The prodigal son knew his father BEFORE the prodigal son's rebellion; on the other hand, you do not know the Son of God BEFORE being born of the Spirit (John 3:3).
Regeneration means "born of God", so all people are dead (Ephesians 2:1-4) except for persons whom God births anew; therefore, a dead person cannot free-will choose to eat Christ's blessed Body nor drink the precious Blood of Christ, after all, the Christ says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3), so only we Christians who are born of God have Life and eat Christ's blessed Body nor drink the precious Blood of Christ.
You preach "'born of God' cannot therefore precede eating his flesh and drinking his blood".
Therefore, your heart falsifies "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves" (John 6:53) into your abominable "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you first eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves" (TomL 6:53).
You prophesy falsely (1 John 4:1) because, in Christ, I say unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourself.
I just love the Word of God!!!
To be utterly clear, your thoughts about your self-willed “Coming to Christ” is anti-truth because, long before you were flesh, the Holy Word of God established:
he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God
(John 3:21)
Continuing to be utterly clear, your “self-willed believing in Christ unto salvation” is the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9), not the Majestic Word of God who says:
So every occurrence of saving faith/belief is governed by the Author and Perfecter of the one faith/belief! Glory be to God in the highest!
You believe that man causes himself to be "born of God" based upon your writing "believing must be done before you can have life but to make it plain John 20:31" because you use "and that believing you have life in His name" (John 20:31) as a sequence of events instead of correlated events.
The Apostle makes it plain and clear.
"but these have been written so that you believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you have life in His name" (John 20:31).
"These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life" (1 John 5:13).
"the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son" (1 John 5:10-12).
Since the Apostle John wrote all these things, then your "believing must be done before you can have life" is false prophecy (1 John 4:1).
If you do not believe that you eat Christ's flesh and drink Christ's precious blood, then you have no life in you, TomL, because Lord Jesus says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves" (John 6:53), but your heart adulterates the precious Word of God into "Falsely, falsely, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves" (the word of TomL).
You heart's treasure of "It has to do with his words not being literal but figurative" regarding John 6:49-63 (proof post #2,130) translates into you literally rejecting Christ's Body and the precious Blood of Christ (John 6:49-63, Matthew 26:26-28, 1 Corinthians 11:24-34) - see the Word of God "He who rejects Me" (John 12:48).
The Glorious Word says:
My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink
(John 6:55)
Yet the word of man rejects the true food and the true drink by loving the traditions of men "It has to do with his words not being literal but figurative" (the word of TomL) leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).
Do not be deceived, your heart converts the true food into the untrue food because of your "figurative" concept application against the Word of God.
Your heart's "It refers to believing and coming to Christ else you have no life in you" regarding the clearly pure Word of God "It is the Spirit who gives Life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and are Life" (John 6:63), so your heart adulterates John 6:63 into "It is your self-willed believing and coming to Christ that gives Life; the flesh profits everying; the words that I have spoken to you are nothing without your self-willed believing and coming to Christ" (the word of TomL obliterating the Holy Spirit out of John 6:63); therefore, you are one who "does not receive My sayings" (the My being Lord Jesus Christ, John 12:48).
Now, after seeing "He who rejects Me" and "does not receive My sayings" the remainder is self-explanatory:
He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day
(John 12:48).
To be utterly clear, your "self-willed believing in Christ unto salvation" is the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9), not the Majestic Word of God who says:
So every occurrence of saving faith/belief is governed by the Author and Perfecter of the one faith/belief! Glory be to God in the highest!
Continuing to be utterly clear, your thoughts about your self-willed "coming to Christ" is anti-truth because, long before you were flesh, the Holy Word of God established:
he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God
(John 3:21)
Your heart makes false statements about God. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE AUTHOR AND PERFECTER OF THE FAITH!!!
Seriously?
Are you trying to tell me
John 6:53 (NIV) — 53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
does not indicate you must first eat his flesh and drink his blood before you can receive the life being discusssed
which in context means you must believe and come to Christ before you can have life
seen also here
John 5:40 (NIV) — 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
Will you deny one must come to Jesus before obtaining life?
You ignored Christ's answer to Nicodemus's question
"How can these things be?"
John 3:9–15 (UASV) — 9 Nicodemus answered and said to him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly I say to you, we speak what we know, and we bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony! 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe; how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 And no one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man. 14 And just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of man must be lifted up, 15 so that everyone believing in him will have eternal life.”
Here we see how one is born again
Nope God causes those who believe in Christ to be born again
John 20:31 (UASV) — 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
What we have here
That is an iva conjunction of adverbial purpose
one must believer that one may have life
There is a clear sequent order
An act performed for a purpose must always posit the act before achieving its purpose
You are plainly in error
End pt1
Rockson
Well-known member
It is a sequence of events. If not the gospel doesn't even need to be preached. Believe what? What you've heard with the gospel. To what end? Salvation.
Rockson
Well-known member
Good point Tom. They actually are believing LIFE comes to one first.....and then they'll come. Not at all what Jesus taught.
Its backwards in Calvinism
That you can imagine
John 6:53 (KJV 1900) — 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
does not place eating and drinking before life is a laughable attempt to deny what is plainly clear
Yes
But that does not mean he is inert
death is simply separation
spiritual death is separation from God due to rebellion
continue reading in Eph 2
see below
The point is the meaning of the term dead in particular spiritual death
Please stick to the point
Um i stopped at verse 12 because defining spiritual death was the purpose
There is however nothing in verse 13 or 14 contrary to free will
The son while separated from his father was dead and when rejoined to him, he was alive
Spiritual death is Separation from God
The bible is clear man has a rudimentary knowledge of God
Romans 1:18–23 (KJV 1900) — 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
You beg the question and ignore the definition of spiritual death as separation from God
See Eph 2:11, 12 and the parable of the prodigal son posted previously
And you deny scriprture
John 6:53 (KJV 1900) — 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
which clearly shows you must eat his flesh and drink his blood before you have life
it cannot therefore precede eating his flesh and drinking his blood
As does the scripture
What we have here is a very basic reading comprehension failure
Jesus says unless you eat his flesh and drink his blood you have no life
Kermos says unless you have life you cannot eat his flesh and drink his blood
clearly contradicting Christ
What is it about Calvinism that causes men to deny obvious truth
@TomL and @Rockson
No matter how much you oppose Apostolic testimony outlined below, your testimony fails while Apostolic testimony succeeds!
Let us dig into the word "repent" which means "think differently afterwards". After we believers are born from above by the Holy Spirit (John 3:3), and in like manner given the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16). The Greek word metanoeó is the English word "repent" in Matthew 4:17. Let us obtain the definition of "repent".
Repent: think differently afterwards
metanoéō (from 3326 /metá, "changed after being with" and 3539 /noiéō, "think") – properly, "think differently after," "after a change of mind"; to repent (literally, "think differently afterwards") (def from 3340. metanoeó HELPS Word-studies section).
The word "repent" does not mean "I change my mind" as asserted by too many people. Try reciting the words of Jesus, where He is commanding the people in Matthew 4:17, except, first, replace the word "repent" with "I change my mind", then, second, replace the word "repent" with "think differently afterwards". God does not change (Malachi 3:6), so this One True God Jesus commands repent.
Godly sorrow brings "thinking differently afterward" leading to salvation (2 Corinthians 7:10, so God's power generates this sorrow within the believers hence God calls it "Godly sorrow" thus illuminating and magnifying sin (Romans 5:20).
Here is the Christian teaching of 2 Corinthians 7:8-10. The passage (from the NASB which explicitly states that the NASB translators add bracketed words for clarity - so I have no problem removing the bracketed words from the NASB - but this is verbatim from the NASB):
Paul wrote a letter that exposed the Corinthian problem, see "I caused you sorrow by my letter" in verse 8.
As Paul writes further (in verse 9), the Apostle narrows the focus with "for you were made sorrowful according to God"; moreover, the Greek of ἐλυπήθητε γὰρ κατὰ Θεόν agrees with "for you were made sorrowful according to God". "ἐλυπήθητε" means "you grieved"/"you were made sorrowful", and "γὰρ" means "for", and "κατὰ" means "down"/"against"/"according to", and "Θεόν" means "God".
Paul does not leave it there, NO, rather Paul repeats himself in verse 10 to make it clear - in Jewish fashion of repeating a point for emphasis - Paul makes it clear in no uncertain terms "the sorrow that is according to God produces a repentance without regret, to salvation". That is Paul driving the Power of God exclusive role in man's salvation point home!
NOTICE THE KEYWORDS OF "ACCORDING TO GOD".
That sorrow, that repentance, is not of man's conjuring. See the keywords and absolute concept of "according to God"!
The scripture is devoid of "sorrow that is according to your free will" or "your free will to repent" or any indication about such a notion as man's free-will choice toward God.
The Apostle wrote "the sorrow that is according to God produces thinking differently afterward without regret" (2 Corinthians 7:10).
BIBLE CITATION: Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? (Romans 2:4).
Notice that rebuke of people that despise repentance being from God!
BIBLE CITATION: When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life." (Acts 11:18)
See that God grants repentance as testified by the disciples in Acts 11:18.
BIBLE CITATION: with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, (2 Timothy 2:25)
Paul testifies that God grants "thinking different afterwards" in 2 Timothy 2:25.
God grants repentance into people, as it is written; on the other hand, there is complete absence and silence in scripture for repentance as a work conjured up by man nor by man's "free will" nor "choice" nor "ability".
God grants repentance, and God acts for God's glory! Praise be to the Living God!
Your heart makes false statements about God. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!!!
No matter how much you oppose Apostolic testimony outlined below, your testimony fails while Apostolic testimony succeeds!
Repentance Defined
THESE THREE QUESTIONS GET ANSWERED
- What is repentance?
- Who controls repentance?
- How does a person repent?
LINGUISTIC DEFiNITION
Let us dig into the word "repent" which means "think differently afterwards". After we believers are born from above by the Holy Spirit (John 3:3), and in like manner given the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16). The Greek word metanoeó is the English word "repent" in Matthew 4:17. Let us obtain the definition of "repent".
Repent: think differently afterwards
metanoéō (from 3326 /metá, "changed after being with" and 3539 /noiéō, "think") – properly, "think differently after," "after a change of mind"; to repent (literally, "think differently afterwards") (def from 3340. metanoeó HELPS Word-studies section).
The word "repent" does not mean "I change my mind" as asserted by too many people. Try reciting the words of Jesus, where He is commanding the people in Matthew 4:17, except, first, replace the word "repent" with "I change my mind", then, second, replace the word "repent" with "think differently afterwards". God does not change (Malachi 3:6), so this One True God Jesus commands repent.
Godly sorrow brings "thinking differently afterward" leading to salvation (2 Corinthians 7:10, so God's power generates this sorrow within the believers hence God calls it "Godly sorrow" thus illuminating and magnifying sin (Romans 5:20).
FIRST BIBLICAL CiTATION FOR REPENTANCE - A DEEP EXAMINATION
Here is the Christian teaching of 2 Corinthians 7:8-10. The passage (from the NASB which explicitly states that the NASB translators add bracketed words for clarity - so I have no problem removing the bracketed words from the NASB - but this is verbatim from the NASB):
- For though I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it - [for] I see that that letter caused you sorrow, though only for a while -
- I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to [the point of] repentance; for you were made sorrowful according to [the will of] God, so that you might not suffer loss in anything through us.
- For the sorrow that is according to [the will] [of] God produces a repentance without regret, [leading] to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.
Paul wrote a letter that exposed the Corinthian problem, see "I caused you sorrow by my letter" in verse 8.
As Paul writes further (in verse 9), the Apostle narrows the focus with "for you were made sorrowful according to God"; moreover, the Greek of ἐλυπήθητε γὰρ κατὰ Θεόν agrees with "for you were made sorrowful according to God". "ἐλυπήθητε" means "you grieved"/"you were made sorrowful", and "γὰρ" means "for", and "κατὰ" means "down"/"against"/"according to", and "Θεόν" means "God".
Paul does not leave it there, NO, rather Paul repeats himself in verse 10 to make it clear - in Jewish fashion of repeating a point for emphasis - Paul makes it clear in no uncertain terms "the sorrow that is according to God produces a repentance without regret, to salvation". That is Paul driving the Power of God exclusive role in man's salvation point home!
NOTICE THE KEYWORDS OF "ACCORDING TO GOD".
That sorrow, that repentance, is not of man's conjuring. See the keywords and absolute concept of "according to God"!
The scripture is devoid of "sorrow that is according to your free will" or "your free will to repent" or any indication about such a notion as man's free-will choice toward God.
The Apostle wrote "the sorrow that is according to God produces thinking differently afterward without regret" (2 Corinthians 7:10).
SCRIPTURAL CITATIONS ABOUT THE SOURCE OF REPENTANCE
BIBLE CITATION: Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? (Romans 2:4).
Notice that rebuke of people that despise repentance being from God!
BIBLE CITATION: When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life." (Acts 11:18)
See that God grants repentance as testified by the disciples in Acts 11:18.
BIBLE CITATION: with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, (2 Timothy 2:25)
Paul testifies that God grants "thinking different afterwards" in 2 Timothy 2:25.
THE THREE QUESTIONS ANSWERED
God grants repentance into people, as it is written; on the other hand, there is complete absence and silence in scripture for repentance as a work conjured up by man nor by man's "free will" nor "choice" nor "ability".
God grants repentance, and God acts for God's glory! Praise be to the Living God!
Your heart makes false statements about God. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!!!
Why did you ignore these
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So according to you unrepentant men are born again
Do you have a verse which actually affirms that
The Bible puts the gift of the Holy Spirit - The spirit himself after repentance
Acts 2:38 (KJV 1900) — 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
You are repeating yourself
regeneration imparts life
repentance precedes that
Acts 11:18 (KJV 1900) — 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Here we see your first problem
Repentance precedes salvation
Regeneration effects salvation
Titus 3:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Ephesians 2:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
thus repentance precedes regeneration
And?
Thus Paul “rejoices now,” that is, in contrast with his sense of “regret” experienced during the period between sending the letter and hearing the Corinthians’ positive response to it. But in keeping with the delicate nature of their past relationships, he quickly qualifies that rejoicing. It was not because the Corinthians were “grieved” by his letter, but because their “grief” issued in “repentance.” Thus theirs was “grief” as “God intended,” or “a godlike grief,” in contrast with another form of “grief,” worldly grief, which he will mention in the next verse. Although they had been “grieved” by his pastoral discipline, they were not “harmed in any way”13 by Paul. On the contrary, as he will explain, the “repentance” arising out of their “grief” is the kind that leads to “salvation.”
Paul Barnett, The Second Epistle to the Corinthians (The New International Commentary on the New Testament; Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1997), 374–375.
Again and?
Accordingly, the sorrow of the world is, when men despond in consequence of earthly afflictions, and are overwhelmed with grief; while sorrow according to God is that which has an eye to God, while they reckon it the one misery—to have lost the favour of God; when, impressed with fear of His judgment, they mourn over their sins
John Calvin and John Pringle, Commentaries on the Epistles of Paul the Apostle to the Corinthians (vol. 2; Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2010), 274.
Um that verse is not speaking of the source of repentance
Rather as to what it is in relation to
Sorrow because of interrupted fellowship with God or because of worldly inconveniences
Again you misinterpret the verse
It speaks of the direction our sorrow is focused
leads yes
Irresistibly causes - no
Revelation 2:20–21 (KJV 1900) — 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
In context it speaks of god giving to the gentiles the same opportunity to repent as the Jews
Obviously all gentiles did not repent here
See that repentance precedes life - i.e. regeneration
You diverted from that topic
@TomL
In this thread, you repeatedly demonstrated your inability to understand the meaning of the word "receive" in Truth (John 14:6).
"RECEIVE" DEFINITION BY EXAMPLE:
The man received a punch to his face dislocating his septum - not by choice - but in the fury of his assailant's surprise attack.
The pedestrian received a series of traumatic injuries - not by choice - but as a result of the car jumping the curb.
A lover receives a love letter - not by choice - but in gladness.
Receive means a thing that unavoidably came in from a source to a recipient - receive is not a choice like accept - receive just happens.
"RECEIVE" DEFINITION BY DICTIONARY:
1. TRANSITIVE VERB When you receive something, you get it after someone gives it to you or sends it to you. (Collins COBUILD English Usage (c) HarperCollins Publishers 1992, 2004, 2011, 2012)
There is a keyword in the definition, which is "after".
The Greek word ἔλαβον (Strong's 2983 - lambano/elabon - to take, receive) lexicon definition is "receive", and the specific instance of ἔλαβον used by the Apostle John in John 1:12 is an active indicative aorist verb in the third person; therefore, the word ἔλαβον conveys the active concept of "joyfully" by the recipient of "receive" with the "receive" being initiated and caused by the the source, not the recipient, but truly God is the cause (John 1:12-13), so John conveys "joyfully receive" is the active meaning for ἔλαβον.
In the Greek lexicon etymology, "to be seized by" is found for ἔλαβον (Strong's 2983 - lambano/elabon - to take, receive).
"RECEIVE" USAGE IN SCRIPTURE:
The Apostle John wrote "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12-13).
The Apostle John wrote receiving Christ is a result of being born of God in John 1:12-13.
The Apostle John wrote receiving Christ is not an act of the will of man in John 1:12-13.
The ones who received Christ are the ones "who were born" "of God".
Let's follow John's blessed chain linking these people:
John's Good Message narrows the focus then he further narrows the focus then he further narrows the focus then further narrowing onward, so we can expand the focus starting with John's primary foundational point moving toward the secondary larger point and then the tertiary broader point and so on.
John's primary foundational point is "born of God" (John 1:13, John 3:3-8) which results in John's secondary point of "believe in His name" (John 1:12, John 6:29) and "children of God" (John 1:12, John 3:3-8) and "many as received Him" (John 1:12, John 9) which has implications for John's tertiary point "His own did not receive Him" (John 1:11) which arrives at John's opening, broadest point which is the fact that "born of God" (John 1:13, John 3:3-8) does not include everybody in "the world" (John 1:10).
John has the "born of God" as the first and primary position.
Each of these are exactly the same people:
John 1:12-13 shows that you cannot cause yourself to receive Jesus.
John 1:12-13 shows that God causes people to receive Jesus.
John 1:12-13 shows that you cannot cause yourself to believe in Jesus.
John 1:12-13 shows that God causes people to believe in Jesus.
Again, here is the passage:
"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12-13).
"Peter [said] to them, 'Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.'" (Acts 2:38-39, this was Peter's response after the people who were pierced to the heart by Peter's proclamation of the Word of God inquired "Brethren, what shall we do" in Acts 2:14-37)
Peter issued the command "think differently from now on" (repent) and the command "be immersed in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins" and here is where "receive" comes in, "you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" which is an act of God.
The word "receive" means "unavoidably enters"; on the other hand, the word "accept" means "allowed to enter".
The work of "accept" is specifically disallowed in the passage with "nor of the will of man" because man causes not man to be "born of God" nor man causes to "believe in His name", whom are the "children of God", nor man causes to be the "many as received Him" (John 1:12-13).
The grammatical sense of the word "receive" indicates Christ "unavoidably enters" a joyfully receptive person according to the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24) because the Apostle indicates the "born of God" are the ones that God causes to "believe in His name", whom are the "children of God", whom are the ones that God causes to be the "many as received Him" (John 1:12-13).
About "receiving":
Man is not the cause of man receiving Christ (Luke 12:57).
God is the cause of man receiving Christ (John 1:12-13).
We Christians actively in thankfulness receive Christ!
About "believing":
Man is not the cause of man believing in Christ (Ephesians 2:8-10).
God is the cause of man believing in Christ (John 6:29).
We Christians joyfully believe in Christ!
All glory to King Jesus reigning on His Throne in the eternal Kingdom of God for His Salvation of man!!! Amen!!!
We Christians receive saving belief/faith from God our Savior (John 1:12-13, John 6:29, Ephesians 2:8-10)!
Your heart makes false statements about God. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!!!
In this thread, you repeatedly demonstrated your inability to understand the meaning of the word "receive" in Truth (John 14:6).
"RECEIVE" DEFINITION BY EXAMPLE:
The man received a punch to his face dislocating his septum - not by choice - but in the fury of his assailant's surprise attack.
The pedestrian received a series of traumatic injuries - not by choice - but as a result of the car jumping the curb.
A lover receives a love letter - not by choice - but in gladness.
Receive means a thing that unavoidably came in from a source to a recipient - receive is not a choice like accept - receive just happens.
"RECEIVE" DEFINITION BY DICTIONARY:
1. TRANSITIVE VERB When you receive something, you get it after someone gives it to you or sends it to you. (Collins COBUILD English Usage (c) HarperCollins Publishers 1992, 2004, 2011, 2012)
There is a keyword in the definition, which is "after".
The Greek word ἔλαβον (Strong's 2983 - lambano/elabon - to take, receive) lexicon definition is "receive", and the specific instance of ἔλαβον used by the Apostle John in John 1:12 is an active indicative aorist verb in the third person; therefore, the word ἔλαβον conveys the active concept of "joyfully" by the recipient of "receive" with the "receive" being initiated and caused by the the source, not the recipient, but truly God is the cause (John 1:12-13), so John conveys "joyfully receive" is the active meaning for ἔλαβον.
In the Greek lexicon etymology, "to be seized by" is found for ἔλαβον (Strong's 2983 - lambano/elabon - to take, receive).
"RECEIVE" USAGE IN SCRIPTURE:
The Apostle John wrote "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12-13).
The Apostle John wrote receiving Christ is a result of being born of God in John 1:12-13.
The Apostle John wrote receiving Christ is not an act of the will of man in John 1:12-13.
The ones who received Christ are the ones "who were born" "of God".
Let's follow John's blessed chain linking these people:
- John starts with the full population of the planet "He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him" (John 1:10) as he builds toward the source of holiness which is "born of God" (John 1:13).
- John narrows the population to Israel only "He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him" (John 1:11).
- John further narrows the focus to a sub-population of Israel "but as many as received Him" (John 1:12)
- John equates the population of "but as many as received Him" (John 1:12) with the population of "children of God" (John 1:12) as he builds toward the source of holiness, that is, "born of God" (John 1:13).
- John further equates the population of "children of God" (John 1:12) with the population of "believe in His name" increasing tempo about the source of holiness being"born of God" (John 1:13).
- John arrives at the source of holiness for every single one of us saints (holy ones) which is being "born of God" (John 1:13).
John's Good Message narrows the focus then he further narrows the focus then he further narrows the focus then further narrowing onward, so we can expand the focus starting with John's primary foundational point moving toward the secondary larger point and then the tertiary broader point and so on.
John's primary foundational point is "born of God" (John 1:13, John 3:3-8) which results in John's secondary point of "believe in His name" (John 1:12, John 6:29) and "children of God" (John 1:12, John 3:3-8) and "many as received Him" (John 1:12, John 9) which has implications for John's tertiary point "His own did not receive Him" (John 1:11) which arrives at John's opening, broadest point which is the fact that "born of God" (John 1:13, John 3:3-8) does not include everybody in "the world" (John 1:10).
John has the "born of God" as the first and primary position.
Each of these are exactly the same people:
- "many as received Him"
- "children of God"
- "believe in His name"
- "born of God"
John 1:12-13 shows that you cannot cause yourself to receive Jesus.
John 1:12-13 shows that God causes people to receive Jesus.
John 1:12-13 shows that you cannot cause yourself to believe in Jesus.
John 1:12-13 shows that God causes people to believe in Jesus.
Again, here is the passage:
"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12-13).
"Peter [said] to them, 'Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.'" (Acts 2:38-39, this was Peter's response after the people who were pierced to the heart by Peter's proclamation of the Word of God inquired "Brethren, what shall we do" in Acts 2:14-37)
Peter issued the command "think differently from now on" (repent) and the command "be immersed in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins" and here is where "receive" comes in, "you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" which is an act of God.
The word "receive" means "unavoidably enters"; on the other hand, the word "accept" means "allowed to enter".
The work of "accept" is specifically disallowed in the passage with "nor of the will of man" because man causes not man to be "born of God" nor man causes to "believe in His name", whom are the "children of God", nor man causes to be the "many as received Him" (John 1:12-13).
The grammatical sense of the word "receive" indicates Christ "unavoidably enters" a joyfully receptive person according to the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24) because the Apostle indicates the "born of God" are the ones that God causes to "believe in His name", whom are the "children of God", whom are the ones that God causes to be the "many as received Him" (John 1:12-13).
About "receiving":
Man is not the cause of man receiving Christ (Luke 12:57).
God is the cause of man receiving Christ (John 1:12-13).
We Christians actively in thankfulness receive Christ!
About "believing":
Man is not the cause of man believing in Christ (Ephesians 2:8-10).
God is the cause of man believing in Christ (John 6:29).
We Christians joyfully believe in Christ!
All glory to King Jesus reigning on His Throne in the eternal Kingdom of God for His Salvation of man!!! Amen!!!
We Christians receive saving belief/faith from God our Savior (John 1:12-13, John 6:29, Ephesians 2:8-10)!
Your heart makes false statements about God. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!!!
civic
Well-known member
Let’s look at the uses of the term “DEAD” in the scripture for you to decide:
1) Jesus referred to the church in Sardis as “DEAD” and called them to “wake up” (Rev 3). Given Christ’s use of the idiomatic term “DEAD” in reference to this church, should we presume that his hearers cannot respond positively to Christ’s appeal in this passage as well?
2) The Prodigal was “DEAD/lost” then “alive/found” demonstrating that the term “DEAD” is idiomatic for “separated by rebellion” not “innate moral inability” (Luke 15:24).
3) “When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.” – James 1:13-15
Are we born “DEAD” according to James? Or is DEATH birthed in those who sin after its “full grown?”
4) “What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.” – Romans 7:7-11
Are we born “DEAD” according to Paul? Or was it through the commandment, after “sin sprang to life” that DEATH came?
5) “As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath…And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,” -Ephesians 2:1-3, 6
This passage says nothing about how or when they died, nor does it relate their condition to any type of innate moral inability.
It does say God raised them up with Christ. Is this meant to represent the special inner work of regeneration which effectually causes them to believe after they are raised up? Let’s observe what else Paul says about being raised up in Christ.
“In Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with Him in baptism, in which *you were also raised up with Him through faith* in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions” (Col. 2:11-13).
They were raised up THROUGH FAITH, not unto faith according to Paul.
Calvinists have the burden to produce just one clear biblical example of the term “DEAD” meaning “the moral incapacity to respond willingly to God from birth.”soteriology101
hope this helps !!!
1) Jesus referred to the church in Sardis as “DEAD” and called them to “wake up” (Rev 3). Given Christ’s use of the idiomatic term “DEAD” in reference to this church, should we presume that his hearers cannot respond positively to Christ’s appeal in this passage as well?
2) The Prodigal was “DEAD/lost” then “alive/found” demonstrating that the term “DEAD” is idiomatic for “separated by rebellion” not “innate moral inability” (Luke 15:24).
3) “When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.” – James 1:13-15
Are we born “DEAD” according to James? Or is DEATH birthed in those who sin after its “full grown?”
4) “What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.” – Romans 7:7-11
Are we born “DEAD” according to Paul? Or was it through the commandment, after “sin sprang to life” that DEATH came?
5) “As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath…And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,” -Ephesians 2:1-3, 6
This passage says nothing about how or when they died, nor does it relate their condition to any type of innate moral inability.
It does say God raised them up with Christ. Is this meant to represent the special inner work of regeneration which effectually causes them to believe after they are raised up? Let’s observe what else Paul says about being raised up in Christ.
“In Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with Him in baptism, in which *you were also raised up with Him through faith* in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions” (Col. 2:11-13).
They were raised up THROUGH FAITH, not unto faith according to Paul.
Calvinists have the burden to produce just one clear biblical example of the term “DEAD” meaning “the moral incapacity to respond willingly to God from birth.”soteriology101
hope this helps !!!
Same old stuff you have presented before and been refuted on
Your first mistake is to ignore the context of the verse the word appears in
John 1:12 (KJV 1900) — 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
For the verse defines what it means in its context
John 1:12–13 (ESV) — 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:12 (NIV) — 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
Your second problem is an appeal to non parallel texts at the expense of parallel text
John 5:43 (KJV 1900) — 43 I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
your third problem you ignore the active voice in John 1:12 and appeal to passive voice examples
Your fourth problem is you ignore the lexical data
e. take up, receive—α. τινὰ someone εἰς into (Wsd 8:18) lit. εἰς τὸ πλοῖον take someone (up) into the boat J 6:21. εἰς οἰκίαν receive someone into one’s house 2J 10. εἰς τὰ ἴδια into his own home J 19:27. Receive someone in the sense of recognizing his authority J 1:12; 5:43a, b; 13:20a, b, c, d
There you go again ignoring the active voice
Go to Parallel Greek
The parsing data is V-AIA-3P
indicating it is a verb aorist indicative active in the 3rd person
The key piece of data here is the active voice
Active vs. passive voice
In a sentence written in the active voice, the subject of sentence performs the action. In a sentence written in the passive voice, the subject receives the action.The subject performs the action
The subject here is the relative pronoun the many
ὅσοι (Root: οσος, LN: 59.7; pronoun, correlative, nominative, plural, masculine)
as many as
Contained in: Casus Pendens Clause
Syntactic Force: Correlative pronoun functioning as Subject of the dependent clause.
Albert L. Lukaszewski and Mark Dubis, The Lexham Syntactic Greek New Testament: Expansions and Annotations (Logos Bible Software, 2009), Jn 1:12.
so the many active voice receive Christ
Calvinist commentary as well
But to as many as received him. That none may be retarded by this stumbling-block, that the Jews despised and rejected Christ, the Evangelist exalts above heaven the godly who believe in him; for he says that by faith they obtain this glory of being reckoned the sons of God.
John Calvin and William Pringle, Commentary on the Gospel according to John (vol. 1; Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2010), 40.
You have ignored context, ignored parallel texts, ignored lexical data, ignored grammar,
and simply persist in posting error.
Which not even Calvinist commentators can support
Last edited:
civic
Well-known member
Stuck on repeat
and ignorant error without the slightest concern to correct or at least investigate it.
@TomL
Your unscriptural preaching that belief in Christ is a work of man has been repeatedly proven false by the Word of God in this thread.
Lord Jesus Christ says in clear, precise, and pure language: “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” (John 6:29).
A voice from Heaven was heard, saying "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased. Listen to Him" (Matthew 17:5), and we Christians hear Christ.
Let's examine the context of the people's word, and, more importantly, the Word of God speaks the Truth (John 14:6) without human interpretation.
Let’s review the exchange:
they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” So they said to Him, “What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform? Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread out of heaven to eat.’” Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.”
(John 6:28-33)
The people asked about their own work respecting salvation when they inquired “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God” (John 6:28), yet Christ rightly removed man’s work from anyplace respecting salvation when He responded “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).
The people failed to understand, just like free-willian philosophers, that Lord Jesus removed the work of man from saving belief/faith with the Lord’s marvelous sayings of “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” (John 6:29). Do not be deceived, "Listen to Him" (Matthew 17:5).
The people followed up by asking/injecting the work of man, again, with “Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness” (John 6:31) in a manner that free-willian philosophers listen to the people instead of "Listen to Him" (Matthew 17:5).
The Lord shifts the focus from man’s purported control to God’s Sovereign control, this second time in the same exchange, with “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.”
(John 6:32-33). "Listen to Him" (Matthew 17:5).
Behold, the Word of God establishes that faith/belief is given by God without any contribution by man (John 6:29) and, in like manner, life is given by the bread of God without any contribution by man (John 6:32-33).
PRAISE JESUS FOR HIS LOVINGKINDNESS!!!
In Truth (John 14:6), the Christ of us Christians intensifies that God works man regarding saving faith/belief, not man working, but truly the Bread of Life (John 6:35) as exclusive Savior!
Free-willian Philosophers convey things like “They obviously understood jesus to be saying what God requires of you is that you believe” (the word of TomL, see post #1,818) about the people recorded in John 6:28-33 in order for the free-willian heart’s treasure (Matthew 15:16-19) to justify adulterating the Word of God resulting in “This is NOT the work of God BUT THIS IS THE WORK OF MAN, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (the traditions of man, see Matthew 15:9).
The Lord uses the continuing exchange to illumine the people's, and free-willian, ignorance. The Word of God is precise and pure “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” (John 6:29) - "Listen to Him" (Matthew 17:5).
This examination needs to expand to the larger passage of "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal" (John 6:27), but this would be incomplete without the intervening passage culminating with "Then they said to Him, 'Lord, always give us this bread.' Jesus said to them, 'I am the Bread of Life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst'" (John 6:34-35).
Do not be confused about the "who comes to Me" in John 6:35 because the Lord says "he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21), so we Christians work for God because God wrings our work/deeds out of us!
In John 6:27 and John 6:34-35, Jesus says He is our Christian's food (John 6:27), our Christian Bread of Life (John 6:35). "Listen to Him" (Matthew 17:5).
The Christ of us Christians says "I am the Living Bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh" (John 6:51).
We Christians work (John 6:27) for the Bread of Life (John 6:35) according to the Power of God (John 3:21), so we proclaim the glorious King of the Kingdom of God in the Power of God to the world; therefore, this "proclaiming" is working for the food enduring to eternal life (John 6:27). Christ gives Himself, the Bread of Life, to us Christians for we Christians partake in the food of the Body and Blood of Christ, so our wonderful Leader sustains and strengthens us for the works prepared for us beforehand by God to the Glory of God! God has set His seal on us Christians, that is, our seal is our very believing in the Son whom the Father has sent by the Grace of God for the Glory of God!
Praise the Lord for He explains our Christian work (John 6:27) is to eat the Bread of Life (John 6:35, John 6:51). Christ says "work" "for the food" (John 6:27) which means "work for Christ" as in fruit of the Spirit of the Living God (see bearing fruit in John 3:21 and John 15:5 and John 15:16 and Galatians 5:22-23), so Christ says not that believing in Christ is the work of man, so this means free-willian philosopher's "He told them there was a certain type of work they were to do and it was the work of faith so stop trying to twist the passage and say it wasn't so" (the word of Rockson regarding John 6:27, see post #1,847) is false according to the Word of God!
Free-willian Philosophers are under the delusion that "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal" (tthe Word of God, John 6:27) in their hearts translates to "Do not work for the food which perishes, but YOU HAVE THE ABILITY IN YOUR OWN INITIATIVE TO WORK for the food which endures to eternal life, SO YOU MUST CHOOSE WHETHER TO ACCEPT THE FOOD THAT the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal" (the word of free-willians) in spite of the Word of God sayings “And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right” (Luke 12:57) and
“you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19).
Free-willian's hearts even subtract "which the Son of Man will give to you" (John 6:27) about the food for which Jesus says "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life" (John 6:27). Jesus clearly states the righteous work of man is Fruit of the Spirit because the food is given by God to man which is another declaration about the exclusive power of God in the salvation of man. A crucial concept established by Jesus in John 6:27 is that the only people to receive Jesus' food are the people to whom Jesus gives the food, but free-willian philosophy ends up with people in hell who are failures of "the food which endures to eternal life" (John 6:27). This paragraph's explanation is all in the recorded Word of God in John 6:27 without stepping to another verse. "Listen to Him" (Matthew 17:5).
The Word in John 6:27 refers to the man's work which is truly the act of God in man; on the other hand, the Word in John 6:29 refers to man's belief which is truly the act of God in man.
In the first moment (John 6:27), Lord Jesus explains the outward evidence of us Christians controlled by our loving Father in Heaven, and in the second moment (John 6:29), Jesus explains the inward event of us Christians controlled by our loving Father in Heaven, and this Father declares "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased. Listen to Him" (Matthew 17:5).
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE AUTHOR AND PERFECTER OF THE ONE FAITH!!!
Your unscriptural preaching that belief in Christ is a work of man has been repeatedly proven false by the Word of God in this thread.
Every Christian Believing In The Son Whom The Father Has Sent Is The Work Of God
Lord Jesus Christ says in clear, precise, and pure language: “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” (John 6:29).
A voice from Heaven was heard, saying "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased. Listen to Him" (Matthew 17:5), and we Christians hear Christ.
Let's examine the context of the people's word, and, more importantly, the Word of God speaks the Truth (John 14:6) without human interpretation.
Let’s review the exchange:
they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” So they said to Him, “What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform? Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread out of heaven to eat.’” Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.”
(John 6:28-33)
The people asked about their own work respecting salvation when they inquired “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God” (John 6:28), yet Christ rightly removed man’s work from anyplace respecting salvation when He responded “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).
The people failed to understand, just like free-willian philosophers, that Lord Jesus removed the work of man from saving belief/faith with the Lord’s marvelous sayings of “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” (John 6:29). Do not be deceived, "Listen to Him" (Matthew 17:5).
The people followed up by asking/injecting the work of man, again, with “Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness” (John 6:31) in a manner that free-willian philosophers listen to the people instead of "Listen to Him" (Matthew 17:5).
The Lord shifts the focus from man’s purported control to God’s Sovereign control, this second time in the same exchange, with “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.”
(John 6:32-33). "Listen to Him" (Matthew 17:5).
Behold, the Word of God establishes that faith/belief is given by God without any contribution by man (John 6:29) and, in like manner, life is given by the bread of God without any contribution by man (John 6:32-33).
PRAISE JESUS FOR HIS LOVINGKINDNESS!!!
In Truth (John 14:6), the Christ of us Christians intensifies that God works man regarding saving faith/belief, not man working, but truly the Bread of Life (John 6:35) as exclusive Savior!
Free-willian Philosophers convey things like “They obviously understood jesus to be saying what God requires of you is that you believe” (the word of TomL, see post #1,818) about the people recorded in John 6:28-33 in order for the free-willian heart’s treasure (Matthew 15:16-19) to justify adulterating the Word of God resulting in “This is NOT the work of God BUT THIS IS THE WORK OF MAN, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (the traditions of man, see Matthew 15:9).
The Lord uses the continuing exchange to illumine the people's, and free-willian, ignorance. The Word of God is precise and pure “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” (John 6:29) - "Listen to Him" (Matthew 17:5).
This examination needs to expand to the larger passage of "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal" (John 6:27), but this would be incomplete without the intervening passage culminating with "Then they said to Him, 'Lord, always give us this bread.' Jesus said to them, 'I am the Bread of Life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst'" (John 6:34-35).
Do not be confused about the "who comes to Me" in John 6:35 because the Lord says "he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21), so we Christians work for God because God wrings our work/deeds out of us!
In John 6:27 and John 6:34-35, Jesus says He is our Christian's food (John 6:27), our Christian Bread of Life (John 6:35). "Listen to Him" (Matthew 17:5).
The Christ of us Christians says "I am the Living Bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh" (John 6:51).
We Christians work (John 6:27) for the Bread of Life (John 6:35) according to the Power of God (John 3:21), so we proclaim the glorious King of the Kingdom of God in the Power of God to the world; therefore, this "proclaiming" is working for the food enduring to eternal life (John 6:27). Christ gives Himself, the Bread of Life, to us Christians for we Christians partake in the food of the Body and Blood of Christ, so our wonderful Leader sustains and strengthens us for the works prepared for us beforehand by God to the Glory of God! God has set His seal on us Christians, that is, our seal is our very believing in the Son whom the Father has sent by the Grace of God for the Glory of God!
Praise the Lord for He explains our Christian work (John 6:27) is to eat the Bread of Life (John 6:35, John 6:51). Christ says "work" "for the food" (John 6:27) which means "work for Christ" as in fruit of the Spirit of the Living God (see bearing fruit in John 3:21 and John 15:5 and John 15:16 and Galatians 5:22-23), so Christ says not that believing in Christ is the work of man, so this means free-willian philosopher's "He told them there was a certain type of work they were to do and it was the work of faith so stop trying to twist the passage and say it wasn't so" (the word of Rockson regarding John 6:27, see post #1,847) is false according to the Word of God!
Free-willian Philosophers are under the delusion that "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal" (tthe Word of God, John 6:27) in their hearts translates to "Do not work for the food which perishes, but YOU HAVE THE ABILITY IN YOUR OWN INITIATIVE TO WORK for the food which endures to eternal life, SO YOU MUST CHOOSE WHETHER TO ACCEPT THE FOOD THAT the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal" (the word of free-willians) in spite of the Word of God sayings “And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right” (Luke 12:57) and
“you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19).
Free-willian's hearts even subtract "which the Son of Man will give to you" (John 6:27) about the food for which Jesus says "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life" (John 6:27). Jesus clearly states the righteous work of man is Fruit of the Spirit because the food is given by God to man which is another declaration about the exclusive power of God in the salvation of man. A crucial concept established by Jesus in John 6:27 is that the only people to receive Jesus' food are the people to whom Jesus gives the food, but free-willian philosophy ends up with people in hell who are failures of "the food which endures to eternal life" (John 6:27). This paragraph's explanation is all in the recorded Word of God in John 6:27 without stepping to another verse. "Listen to Him" (Matthew 17:5).
The Word in John 6:27 refers to the man's work which is truly the act of God in man; on the other hand, the Word in John 6:29 refers to man's belief which is truly the act of God in man.
In the first moment (John 6:27), Lord Jesus explains the outward evidence of us Christians controlled by our loving Father in Heaven, and in the second moment (John 6:29), Jesus explains the inward event of us Christians controlled by our loving Father in Heaven, and this Father declares "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased. Listen to Him" (Matthew 17:5).
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE AUTHOR AND PERFECTER OF THE ONE FAITH!!!
Sorry you never came close
Acts 16:30–32 (KJV 1900) — 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. 32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
Acts 2:37–38 (KJV 1900) — 37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
John 6:28 (KJV 1900) — 28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Never is the answer nothing but it is believe, repent
You were refuted here as well
John 6:27 (NASB 2020) — 27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that lasts for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”
Calvinists tend toward isolating verses from their context do they can read their theology into the text
The phrase work of God has been defined for us by verse 28
John 6:28 (NASB 2020) — 28 Therefore they said to Him, “What are we to do, so that we may accomplish the works of God?”
In context its meaning is that which God requires of man
Repeating the same failed claims changes nothing
John 6:27 (NASB 2020) — 27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that lasts for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”
Jesus tells them there is something they must do to obtain the food which last for eternal life
in context it is to believe on him
John 6:35–36 (NASB 2020) — 35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; the one who comes to Me will not be hungry, and the one who believes in Me will never be thirsty. 36 But I said to you that you have indeed seen Me, and yet you do not believe.
John 6:28 (NASB 2020) — 28 Therefore they said to Him, “What are we to do, so that we may accomplish the works of God?”
Again this establishes the meaning of the phrase the work of God as that which is required by God
John 6:29 (NASB 2020) — 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”
Jesus tells them they must believe
John 6:30 (NASB 2020) — 30 So they said to Him, “What then are You doing as a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work are You performing?
The jews understand him to be telling them they must believe.
An understanding confirmed by Christ as per verse 35 above
They must believe
An understanding confirmed by scripture
Acts 16:30–31 (NASB 2020) — 30 and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
even Calvinist commentators agree with this obvious reading
John Calvin: “People who infer from this passage that faith is God’s gift are mistaken, for Christ does not show here what God produces in us, but what God wants and requires from us.” (The Crossway Classic Commentaries: John; Crossway Books; Wheaton, IL; 1994, p.393)
This is the work of God. This is the thing that will be acceptable to God, or which you are to do in order to be saved. Jesus did not tell them they had nothing to do, or that they were to sit down and wait, but that there was a work to perform, and that was a duty that was imperative. It was to believe on the Messiah. This is the work which sinners are to do; and doing this they will be saved, for Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth, Ro. 10:4.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 244.
Even the notes to the Geneva bible refute you
Verse 29
5. Men torment themselves in vain when they try to please God without faith.
g. That is, this is the work that God requires, that you believe in me, and therefore he calls them back to faith.
Geneva Bible Notes (1599). (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2003), Jn 6:28–29.
as do other sources
Believe. Faith is put as a moral act or work. The work of God is to believe. Faith includes all the works which God requires. The Jews’ question contemplates numerous works. Jesus’ answer directs them to one work. Canon Westcott justly observes that “this simple formula contains the complete solution of the relation of faith and works.”11 Marvin Richardson Vincent, Word Studies in the New Testament (vol. 2; New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1887), 148–149.
What precisely is it that God waits for us to do, and will be satisfied with our doing? To which Jesus, always ready to meet the sincere inquirer, gives the explicit answer (ver. 29) τοῦτό ἐστι … ἐκεῖνος. If God has sent a messenger it is because there is need of such interposition, and the first duty must be to listen believingly to this messenger.
Marcus Dods, The Gospel of St. John (New York: George H. Doran Company, n.d.), 752.
The meaning is not,—that faith is wrought in us by God, is the work of God; but that the truest way of working the work of God is to believe on Him whom He hath sent.11 Henry Alford, Alford’s Greek Testament: An Exegetical and Critical Commentary (vol. 1; Grand Rapids, MI: Guardian Press, 1976), 761.
Mindlessly repeating your view does not negate what the scripture clearly shows
