An Article on free will

[Kermos]

You posted nothing to prove your point, simply asserting your claim

In the meantime you ignored contextual exegesis

Jesus told them they must work

John 6:27 (ESV) — 27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.”

Verse 28 defines for us the works of God

John 6:28 (NASB 2020) — 28 Therefore they said to Him, “What are we to do, so that we may accomplish the works of God?”

as what are we to do'

3rd the Jews clearly understood it was they who were to believe

John 6:30 (KJV 1900) — 30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

fourth Christ affirmed there is something they must do never correcting them

John 6:32–40 (ESV) — 32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.” 35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.

You have isolated verse 29 from its context and assumed its meaning

you ignored the commentary of your Calvinist peers

. What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? That is, such things as God will approve. This was the earnest inquiry of men who were seeking to be saved. They had crossed the Sea of Tiberias to seek him; they supposed him to be the Messiah, and they sincerely desired to be taught the way of life; yet it is observable that they expected to find that way as other sinners commonly do—by their works. The idea of doing something to merit salvation is one of the last that the sinner ever surrenders.
Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 244.

John Calvin: “People who infer from this passage that faith is God’s gift are mistaken, for Christ does not show here what God produces in us, but what God wants and requires from us.” (The Crossway Classic Commentaries: John; Crossway Books; Wheaton, IL; 1994, p.393)

Verse 29
5. Men torment themselves in vain when they try to please God without faith.
g. That is, this is the work that God requires, that you believe in me, and therefore he calls them back to faith.


Geneva Bible Notes (1599). (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2003), Jn 6:28–29.



Jesus sets them straight: The work of God—i.e. what God requires—is faith. This is not faith in the abstract, an existential trust without a coherent object. Rather, they must believe in the one [God] has sent[1] Pillar New Tetament commentary D.A. Carson

John_6:28-29. Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, —

The chief work, the greatest work which you can do. Spurgeon commentary

---

[1] D. A. Carson, The Gospel according to John (The Pillar New Testament Commentary; Leicester, England; Grand Rapids, MI: Inter-Varsity Press; W.B. Eerdmans, 1991), 285.


The work of Greek exegetes

Believe. Faith is put as a moral act or work. The work of God is to believe. Faith includes all the works which God requires. The Jews’ question contemplates numerous works. Jesus’ answer directs them to one work. Canon Westcott justly observes that “this simple formula contains the complete solution of the relation of faith and works.”11 Marvin Richardson Vincent, Word Studies in the New Testament (vol. 2; New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1887), 148–149.

The meaning is not,—that faith is wrought in us by God, is the work of God; but that the truest way of working the work of God is to believe on Him whom He hath sent.11 Henry Alford, Alford’s Greek Testament: An Exegetical and Critical Commentary (vol. 1; Grand Rapids, MI: Guardian Press, 1976), 761.
Messianic work.

28. τί ποιῶμεν …; What must we do (v. 5) that we may work? Perhaps they understood Him to mean that they must earn what they desire; certainly they see that Christ’s words have a moral meaning; they must do the works required by God. But how?
29. τὸ ἔργον. They probably thought of works of the law, tithes, sacrifices, &c. He tells them of one work, one moral act, from which all the rest derive their value, continuous belief (πιστεύητε, not πιστεύσητε) in Him whom God has sent. Comp. Acts 16:31. On ἵνα and ἀπέστειλεν see on 1:8, 33, 4:47, 17:3.1
1 A. Plummer, The Gospel according to S. John (Cambridge Greek Testament for Schools and Colleges; Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1896), 155.

rather than deal with

Acts 16:30–31 (KJV 1900) — 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Believe is the answer to what must i do

Not the nothing "God will cause you to believe if you are among the elect" of your theology

You simply asserted your view

you did the same here

Acts 2:37–38 (KJV 1900) — 37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

they were to repent

What shall we do is answered by you must repent again not the nothing

"God will cause you to believe if you are among the elect" of your theology

end pt1

Except the question is what must I do. The answer is believe and not the nothing of your theology

Were there mnerit in your theology the answer should have been "you can do nothing if god has chosen you as one of his elect her will cause you to believe"

But we do not see that. In fact nowhere do we see that

Not in one place do we read God irresistibly or effectual causes faith in man

You assert it but that is all you ever do. Assert but provide nothing by way of scripture to substantiate your view







You (understood) believe is sufficient. It was something they were to do. The responsibility and the ability belonged to them

Again

Question: What were they to do?
Answer: Believe



But the word repenty was

Another thing to be done

another rejection of the idea there was nothing for them to do as asserted by your theology



Again what Peter stated was sufficient

what he could have stated if your doctrine were true is nothing God must cause you to repent

But he does not. He never does

Multiple opportunities are seen where it could have been clearly stated but it never happens






More than sufficient

your do nothing theology is nowhere to be seen.

Not here

not anywhere

you are reduced to eisegeting it into the text




sorry you never address this

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/an-article-on-free-will.1287/post-82483

Let me correct your distortion


as the Spirit appears to be testifying that they believed knowing their heart, not that they were effectually caused to believe

The spirit knowing their heart testified that they the gentiles believed

The spirit did not effectually cause them to believe but discerned their heart that they did believe

Your theology of effectually cause faith is missing from the passage

You wrote:

"Were there mnerit in your theology the answer should have been "you can do nothing if god has chosen you as one of his elect her will cause you to believe""
​

apart from Me, you can do nothing (the Word of God, John 15:5).

you did not choose Me, but I chose you (the Word of God, John 15:16).

I chose you out of the world (the Word of God, John 15:19, includes salvation).

This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent (the Word of God, John 6:29).

Lord Jesus Christ's placed His wisdom in my heart, and I am eternally grateful to my King; on the other hand, you openly declare that your wisdom is from man separated from Jesus Christ, for example John 6:28. You sure like that word "theology".

Let's get more specific, your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) self-exaltation elevates the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9) above and beyond the Word of God with "Verse 28 defines for us the works of God" regarding "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God" (John 6:28) in the John 6:28-29 exchange, so you seated yourself on the Holy Throne of God such that your heart's treasure of “This is not the work of God but this is the work of man, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (TomL 6:29) destroys and demolishes and demonizes the holy precisely pure Word of God “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29), so Almighty TomL converts Lord Jesus' “work of God” (John 6:29) into Lord TomL's “work of man" (TomL 6:29).

Bible Verse		Explicit Concept		Extant Concept
they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” (John 6:28)		Man working God.		Man chooses God.
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” (John 6:29)		God working man.		God chooses man.

Lord Jesus expresses that God works man to the exclusion of man's works, so, by extension, God exclusively chooses man (John 15:16-19; John 6:29), even God choosing God's friends.

As a reminder, you believe "Were there mnerit in your theology the answer should have been 'you can do nothing if god has chosen you as one of his elect her will cause you to believe'".

Jesus meritoriously conveys that "you can do nothing unless God has chosen you as one of his chosen causing you to believe" because of His blessed sayings such as exclusively God's work in This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent (John 6:29).

But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God (John 3:21).

Your immediately subsequent paragraph of "But we do not see that. In fact nowhere do we see that" is a clear indication of your inability to see/perceive "the work of God" (John 6:29) as per "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3)
about Lord Jesus Christ "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

continued to post #2,2422

 

[Kermos]

continued from post #2,421

You wrote the same spiritually false "the unborn's self-willed belief causes birth by God" nonsense concept that you previously conveyed in your prior posts, so you failed to disprove the Word of God that the Father of lights causes me to proclaim here.

Still more repetition of failed argumentation

In context the work of God is the work that God requires of man as seen

Your heart's thoughts of "the work of God is the work that God requires of man" adulterates the Truth (John 14:6) of “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) into your false “This is the work that God requires of you, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (TomL 6:29). You self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10), TomL, changed Christ's context.

Acts 16:30–31 (KJV 1900) — 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

In this passage, you conjure up a non-existent man-centered "believe" context based on your own interpretation instead of the Word of God, just like you do with John 6:29. God's messenger's issue the righteous response of the command to "believe" - a command that can only be accomplished in man by the Power of God:

and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
(Acts 16:30-31)
​

The "believe" is the work of God in man, and God's messengers say absolutely nothing different than belief is a work of God.

The only way to achieve your own interpretation is for the following change to the dialog:

and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They said, “Free-will choose to believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
(TomL 16:30-31)
​

Now, the "believe" is the work of man, but that is not what God's messengers said.

Acts 2:37–38 (KJV 1900) — 37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The word "believe" is not mentioned in Acts 2:37–38, so perhaps you are adulterating the passage thusly:

Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, feee-will choose to believe, and free-will choose to be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
(TomL 2:37–38)
​

Now, based on your postulate, you have made the "believe" to be the work of man, but, alas, that is not what God's messenger commanded.

Here is the accurate account

Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
(Acts 2:37–38)
​

It is the same question as seen here

John 6:28 (KJV 1900) — 28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

Never is the answer you can do nothing but in every case they are told to believe/repent, labor for the meat which endures to everlasting life by believing on him the father sent

Never is the answer free-will choose to believe, so free-will is absent from every answer.

Your heart must shatter “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (the Word of God, John 6:29) into your heart's conjured “This is not the work of God but this is the work of man, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (TomL 6:29).

BTW why you quote Acts 15:8-9 is somewhat of the mystery

Acts 15:7–9 (KJV 1900) — 7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

as the Spirit appears to be testifying that they believed knowing their heart, not that they were effectually caused to believe

You last paragraph's clause "they believed knowing their heart" is a circular reference in which you convey "the people knew the people", but your circular reference is absent from the passage.

Let's look at the full pronunciation of the Apostle Peter:

(7) After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. (8) And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us, (9) and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. (10) Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? (11) But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”
(Acts 15:7-11)
​

Your heart's treasure about the passage is "as the Spirit appears to be testifying that they believed knowing their heart, not that they were effectually caused to believe" - whatever you might mean by "they were effectually caused to believe", I'm taking that as "God caused them to believe" in order to eliminate any confusion introduced by the word "effectually", so I interpret your writing to be "as the Spirit appears to be testifying that they believed knowing their heart, not that God caused them to believe".

I, in the Holy Spirit, know that God caused them to believe.

You and I are polar opposites as to the "cause" in this passage.

The Spirit through Peter expressly says "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us, and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith." (Acts 15:8-9), and this sophisticated sentence has a subject with predicate.

By God's grace, I grammatically disect the sophisticated sentence in Acts 15:8-9:

• The subject of the sentence is "God", the second word in Acts 15:8, and "God" is the "who" in the sentence.
• each clause must be a complete thought, a logical unit.
• now, this point is the search for the sophisticated sentence predicate, and I use the simple process of clause elimination to arrive at the result in Truth (John 14:6):
  1. I start at the grammatical central clause of "who testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us" (Acts 15:8-9) of the sophisticated sentence, so, for grammatical predicate determination purposes, I shall remove this grammatical central clause from the next disection step. I call this central clause the first clause.
  2. "who knows the heart, and He made no distinction between us and them" (Acts 15:8-9) is the encapsulating clause outside of the first clause. I call this encapsulating clause the second clause. For grammatical predicate determination purposes, I shall remove this second clause from the next disection step.
  3. "And God cleansing their hearts by faith" (Acts 15:8-9) is the next encapsulating clause outside of the second clause. I call this encapsulating clause the third clause, and this third clause is the perimeter clause, so the sentence predicate is "cleansing their hearts by faith" (Acts 15:8-9).
• Grammatically, I find:
  • Subject = "God"
  • Verb = "cleansing"
  • Direct Object = "their hearts"
  • Indirect Object = "faith"
• Therefore, since the sophisticated sentence's indirect object is "faith", then the subject of God is the affecting factor for faith to do the action of cleansing upon "their hearts".

Grammatically complete and true, the Holy Spirit reveals "God cleansing their hearts by faith" (Acts 15:8-9) inherently indicates that God controls saving faith/belief, just as Lord Jesus says in “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).

Now, we arrive at a "test the spirits" moment as per the Apostle John's injunction:

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world
(1 John 4:1)
​

Your heart's treasure is "not that God caused them to believe" regarding Acts 15:8-9.

My heart's treasure is "God caused them to believe" regarding Acts 15:8-9.

One of us is a false prophets.

God's Good Message through God's messenger Peter is "God cleansing their hearts by faith" (Acts 15:8-9); therefore, "God caused them to believe" is accurate with regard to Acts 15:8-9, so that which God has made the treasure of my heart is Truth (John 14:6).

God's Good Message through God's messenger Peter is "God cleansing their hearts by faith" (Acts 15:8-9); therefore, "not that God caused them to believe" is inaccurate with regard to Acts 15:8-9, so that which you self-willed have made the treasure of your heart is false.

Because your "not that God caused them to believe" is false about Acts 15:8-9, you are a false prophet.

It's time to answer your inquiry "why you quote Acts 15:8-9 is somewhat of the mystery".

Free-willians do not believe that God causes saving faith, and you free-willians can only achieve free-will by adulterating the Word of God.

Every occurrence of saving faith/belief in the Holy Scripture is governed by this Word of God “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29); moreover, this includes every New Testament book in the Bible.

Your heart makes false statements about God. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE SAVIOR!!!

 

[Kermos]

can you put it into paragraph format?

TomL's grammar is quite fractured. I've requested that he clean up his posts. The question is, will he honor your appropo question?

 

[Johann]

TomL's grammar is quite fractured. I've requested that he clean up his posts. The question is, will he honor your appropo question?

So is mine @Kermos since English is not my first language.
God bless brother.
Johann.

 

[Rockson]

Your heart's thoughts of "the work of God is the work that God requires of man" adulterates the Truth (John 14:6)

Tom didn't say that. Jn 6: 27 did when Jesus said, Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for (that means you don't work for A but you do work for B) You reject clear language and grammar in denying this.

Sorry but you're merely projecting when you claim others are adulterating the truth.

 

[Rockson]

:

​

and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”​

(Acts 16:30-31)​

​

The "believe" is the work of God in man, and God's messengers say absolutely nothing different than belief is a work of God.

Again what you seek to impose upon the Acts 16:30, 31 text is preposterous. If Paul truly meant that THEY didn't have to do anything as you Calvinist wrongly assert he would have told them so, clearly and in no uncertain terms.

When the one asked Paul, "What must I do to be saved" if he believed Calvinistic thinking he would have said clearly and without question, "NOTHING!" He would have told him right on the spot, "It's up to God whether you'll be saved or not saved so no need to even ask the question!"

 

[civic]

Again what you seek to impose upon the Acts 16:30, 31 text is preposterous. If Paul truly meant that THEY didn't have to do anything as you Calvinist wrongly assert he would have told them so, clearly and in no uncertain terms.

When the one asked Paul, "What must I do to be saved" if he believed Calvinistic thinking he would have said clearly and without question, "NOTHING!" He would have told him right on the spot, "It's up to God whether you'll be saved or not saved so no need to even ask the question!"

the calvinist is without scripture to back up their position they must TWIST faith into works salvation.

notice although they preach faith alone it was never their faith to begin with.

when scripture says one must believe the gospel its nonsense since man cannot believe.

 

[Rockson]

notice although they preach faith alone it was never their faith to begin with.

It seems to me their way of thinking of the gospel is merely God out of courtesy is telling them what he did in their lives in case they're wondering. The exhortation to be you reconciled to God really doesn't mean anything. And that's a far, far distance from Jesus saying preach the gospel and one which believes shall be saved. He didn't say preach the gospel and tell them they were saved and I'm being polite to tell you what happened, but preach the gospel and have them believe unto salvation. Mk 16:15

 

[civic]

It seems to me their way of thinking of the gospel is merely God out of courtesy is telling them what he did in their lives in case they're wondering. The exhortation to be you reconciled to God really doesn't mean anything. And that's a far, far distance from Jesus saying preach the gospel and one which believes shall be saved. He didn't say preach the gospel and tell them they were saved and I'm being polite to tell you what happened, but preach the gospel and have them believe unto salvation. Mk 16:15

Agreed

 

[Kermos]

So is mine @Kermos since English is not my first language.
God bless brother.
Johann.

I have to disagree with you, Johann, because your grammar is very coherent and precise.

 

[Kermos]

yes regeneration is preceded by faith. John 1:12 does not exist alone

Regeneration by definition is the impartation of life

The Apostle John declares the ordained order of salvation in John 1:10-13.

"He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (the Apostle John, John 1:10-13) clearly illumines that born of God precedes received and believe, so your "regeneration is preceded by faith. John 1:12" is blatantly false.

The following verses show faith precedes life

John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. (one comes to Jesus by faith)

Acts 11:18 (KJV)
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Absolutely no scripture states that faith/belief is a work of man. Your quoted verses of John 5:24, John 20:31, John 5:40, and Acts 11:18 show the correlation, not sequence, of belief/faith and born of God. The faith/belief mentioned in John 5:24, John 20:31, John 5:40, and Acts 11:18 is governed by "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (the Word of God, John 6:29), so your "The following verses show faith precedes life John 5:24 John 20:31 John 5:40 Acts 11:18" is blatantly false.

Regeneration makes one a child of God. Born of God -

The regeneration concept is the born of God concept.

One is made a child of God through faith

John 1:12 (KJV)
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Your heart's "One is made a child of God through faith" context obliterates the Apostle John's context as shown here:

He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him, but as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God
(John 1:10-13)
​

Galatians 3:26 (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

John 12:36 (KJV)
36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

Regeneration is a spiritual resurrection. (all agree quickening - being made alive speaks of regeneration when spoken of the physically living)


We are raised spiritually through faith

Colossians 2:12 (KJV)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

One is born again(regenerated) through faith in gospel

James 1:18 (KJV)
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

Of course unbelief does not profit so it must be through faith

Hebrews 4:2 (KJV 1900) — 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Regeneration is the mechanism of salvation

Titus 3:5 (KJV)
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Ephesians 2:5 (KJV)
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

it is through faith we are saved

EPH 2:8 (KJV)
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

.through - dia instrument or means in the genitive case - Vines

Regeneration is preceded by remission of sin

Colossians 2:13 (KJV)
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

God regenerates those he has forgiven

foregiveness requires both faith and repentance

Acts 10:43 (KJV)
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Luke 24:47 (KJV)
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

I do not expect you will address it as you really did not address this

John 6:27 (NASB 2020) — 27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that lasts for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”

Calvinists tend toward isolating verses from their context do they can read their theology into the text



Kermos said:



The people failed to understand, just like you, that Lord Jesus removed the work of man from saving belief/faith with the Lord’s marvelous sayings of “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” (John 6:29).


There you go with your unsupported assumptions

The phrase work of God has been defined for us by verse 28

John 6:28 (NASB 2020) — 28 Therefore they said to Him, “What are we to do, so that we may accomplish the works of God?”

In context its meaning is that which God requires of man

Repeating the same failed claims changes nothing

John 6:27 (NASB 2020) — 27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that lasts for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”

Jesus tells them there is something they must do to obtain the food which last for eternal life

in context it is to believe on him

John 6:35–36 (NASB 2020) — 35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; the one who comes to Me will not be hungry, and the one who believes in Me will never be thirsty. 36 But I said to you that you have indeed seen Me, and yet you do not believe.

John 6:28 (NASB 2020) — 28 Therefore they said to Him, “What are we to do, so that we may accomplish the works of God?”

Again this establishes the meaning of the phrase the work of God as that which is required by God

John 6:29 (NASB 2020) — 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

Jesus tells them they must believe

John 6:30 (NASB 2020) — 30 So they said to Him, “What then are You doing as a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work are You performing?

The jew understand him to be telling them they must believe.

An understanding confirmed by Christ as per verse 35 above

They must believe

An understanding confirmed by scripture

Acts 16:30–31 (NASB 2020) — 30 and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

other than to simply reassert your doctrine

Let's look at Galatians 3:26 again, but let's see the passage:

23 But before the belief came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the belief which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by belief. 25 But now that the belief has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through the belief in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were immersed into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.
(Galatians 3:23-29)
​

The context of Galatians 3:23-29 is first came the tutor of the Law followed by second comes justified by the belief, that is, the once for all belief delivered to every single believer by God (John 6:29, Jude 1:3, 2 Peter 1:1).

You think you can extract a non-existent "belief precedes born of God" context from this Law to belief context, but you are dead wrong, and this Truth (John 14:6) is evident per the next paragraph.

The Apostle Paul does not state "For you are all sons of God exclusively through the belief in Christ Jesus" because that is nonsensical since being sons of God requires that a person being born of God. Also, the Apostle Paul does not state "For you are all sons of God through your self-willed belief in Christ Jesus". In Truth (John 14:6), we Christians are children of God through both being born of God and faith in Jesus Christ; therefore, since Paul did not state "For you are all thirdly sons of God through firstly belief in Christ Jesus" (TomL says: first belief, second born of God, third sons of God), then the Apostle Paul is expressing correlation of the belief concept with the sons of God concept and not consecutive sequence. The Apostle Paul is not going to contradict the Lord Jesus who establishes that born of God as recorded in John 3:3-8 precedes believing in God as recorded in John 3:9-20. Lord Jesus wraps the discourse recorded in John 3:3-20 with "But he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21), so the Grand Creator secures the Sovereignty of God and leaves no room for the sovereignty of man/free-will to choose to believe in Jesus, so your "The following verses show faith precedes life" is blatantly false.

As with Galatians 3:26, none of your purported "self-willed believing" support "verses show faith precedes life". You obliterate context again and again and again.

Yes God is the cause of our regeneration. He regenerates man when they first receive that is believe on his son Jesus Christ,

When you wrote "He regenerates man when they first receive that is believe on his son Jesus Christ", then you convey "first man sees King Jesus and second man works himself to believe in Jesus and third man becomes born of God".

Let's review your distinct sequence of discreet events:

1. man sees King Jesus of the Kingdom of God,
2. the work of man is to believe in the Son whom the Father has sent, and
3. man becomes born of God".

"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (the Word of God, John 3:3) declares the Christ of us Christians, so your "man sees King Jesus of the Kingdom of God" nullifies the sayings of King Jesus of the Kingdom of God, yet Christians nullify not the Word of God.

"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (the Word of God, John 6:29) declares the Christ of us Christians, so your "the work of man is to believe in the Son whom the Father has sent" nullifies the sayings of King Jesus of the Kingdom of God, but Christians do not nullify the Word of God.

Yes God is the cause of our regeneration. He regenerates man when they first receive that is believe on his son Jesus Christ,

This table shows your internally conflicted position as to who "is the cause of regeneration":

TomL's LEFT HANDED POSITION		TomL's RIGHT HANDED POSITION
GOD is the cause of "born of God"		MAN is the cause of "born of God"
TomL's position: Yes, God		TomL's position: Yes, man
TomL's heart treasure (black): Yes God is the cause of our regeneration.		TomL's heart treasure (white): He regenerates man when they first receive that is believe on his son Jesus Christ,

As is clearly visible, the above table's left hand column is the opposite of the right hand column, so your belief is confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33).

Another way to see your faith is that you do not believe that "God is the cause of our regeneration" because your step 3 of "man becomes born of God" requires your step 2 of "the work of man is to believe in the Son whom the Father has sent" while at the same time your step 3 is impossible without your step 2 of "the work of man is to believe in the Son whom the Father has sent"; therefore, you believe "man is the cause of our regeneration" which is a false prophecy (1 John 4:1).

The Truth (John 14:6) is "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (the Word of God, John 6:29) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (the Word of God, John 3:3).

Your heart makes false statements about God. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE ONE AND ONLY WAY!!!

 

[Johann]

I have to disagree with you, Johann, because your grammar is very coherent and precise.

Appreciate this coming from you brother and just to let you know-I concur with your posts.
God bless and Shalom to you and family.
Johann.

 

[TomL]

Tom noted
yes regeneration is preceded by faith. John 1:12 does not exist alone

Regeneration by definition is the impartation of life

Kermos previously

The Apostle John declares the ordained order of salvation in John 1:10-13.

"He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (the Apostle John, John 1:10-13) clearly illumines that born of God precedes received and believe, so your "regeneration is preceded by faith. John 1:12" is blatantly false.

Sorry nowhere is being born of God placed before receiving Christ

Clearly all receiving Christ are given the right to be made a child of God

it is by being born again one is made a child of God

Until one receives Christ one does not have the right to that

The following verses show faith precedes life

John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. (one comes to Jesus by faith)

Acts 11:18 (KJV)
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Kermos stated
Absolutely no scripture states that faith/belief is a work of man. Your quoted verses of John 5:24, John 20:31, John 5:40, and Acts 11:18 show the correlation, not sequence, of belief/faith and born of God. The faith/belief mentioned in John 5:24, John 20:31, John 5:40, and Acts 11:18 is governed by "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (the Word of God, John 6:29), so your "The following verses show faith precedes life John 5:24 John 20:31 John 5:40 Acts 11:18" is blatantly false.

Sorry, you are not exegeting the verses and simply making unsupported claims

John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Here one must hear before living

An obvious sequence



John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Here one must believe that he might have life

Another obvious sequence

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. (one comes to Jesus by faith)

Clearly one must come to Christ before having life

Acts 11:18 (KJV)
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

here repentance precedes life

You have simply denied the obvious for the sake of your theology

Regeneration makes one a child of God. Born of God -

Kermos
The regeneration concept is the born of God concept.

and it makes on a child of God

born of God - child of God

Can you deny the obvious correlation?

One is made a child of God through faith

John 1:12 (KJV)
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Kermos stated
Your heart's "One is made a child of God through faith" context obliterates the Apostle John's context as shown here:

He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him, but as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God
(John 1:10-13)

No just your theology


It clear all who receive Christ are given the right to become children of God

John 1:12 (ESV) — 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

It is by being born again one becomes a child of God

Until you receive Christ you do not even have that right

Tom previously

Galatians 3:26 (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

John 12:36 (KJV)
36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

Regeneration is a spiritual resurrection. (all agree quickening - being made alive speaks of regeneration when spoken of the physically living)


We are raised spiritually through faith

Colossians 2:12 (KJV)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

One is born again(regenerated) through faith in gospel

James 1:18 (KJV)
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

Of course unbelief does not profit so it must be through faith

Hebrews 4:2 (KJV 1900) — 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Regeneration is the mechanism of salvation

Titus 3:5 (KJV)
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Ephesians 2:5 (KJV)
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

it is through faith we are saved

EPH 2:8 (KJV)
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

.through - dia instrument or means in the genitive case - Vines

Regeneration is preceded by remission of sin

Colossians 2:13 (KJV)
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

God regenerates those he has forgiven

foregiveness requires both faith and repentance

Acts 10:43 (KJV)
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Luke 24:47 (KJV)
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

I do not expect you will address it as you really did not address this

John 6:27 (NASB 2020) — 27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that lasts for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”

Calvinists tend toward isolating verses from their context do they can read their theology into the text

Kermos addresses none of that

Kermos said:



The people failed to understand, just like you, that Lord Jesus removed the work of man from saving belief/faith with the Lord’s marvelous sayings of “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” (John 6:29).

This is the same old tired argument which has been roundly refuted by context, the whole council of God and by Calvinist and Greek scholars

The phrase work of God has been defined for us by verse 28

John 6:28 (NASB 2020) — 28 Therefore they said to Him, “What are we to do, so that we may accomplish the works of God?”

In context its meaning is that which God requires of man

Repeating the same failed claims changes nothing

John 6:27 (NASB 2020) — 27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that lasts for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”

Jesus tells them there is something they must do to obtain the food which last for eternal life

in context it is to believe on him

John 6:35–36 (NASB 2020) — 35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; the one who comes to Me will not be hungry, and the one who believes in Me will never be thirsty. 36 But I said to you that you have indeed seen Me, and yet you do not believe.

John 6:28 (NASB 2020) — 28 Therefore they said to Him, “What are we to do, so that we may accomplish the works of God?”

Again this establishes the meaning of the phrase the work of God as that which is required by God

John 6:29 (NASB 2020) — 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

Jesus tells them they must believe

John 6:30 (NASB 2020) — 30 So they said to Him, “What then are You doing as a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work are You performing?

The jews understand him to be telling them they must believe.

An understanding confirmed by Christ as per verse 35 above

They must believe

An understanding confirmed by scripture

Acts 16:30–31 (NASB 2020) — 30 and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

other than to simply reassert your doctrine

End pt1

 

[Kermos]

Notice how born again

John 3:9–16 (NASB 2020) — 9 Nicodemus responded and said to Him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered and said to him, “You are the teacher of Israel, and yet you do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you people do not accept our testimony. 12 If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven, except He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. 14 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes will have eternal life in Him. 16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.

As a matter of Truth (John 14:6), God causes me to "Notice how born again" very specifically the born again in John 3:3-8 precedes the believes in John 3:9-16!

Furthermore, as a matter of Spiritual Truth (John 14:6), God causes me to "Notice how born again" very specifically the born again was slashed by you in your contextual slaughtering of John 3:3-8 from your response post.

Moreover, as a matter of Spiritual Truth (John 14:6), God causes me to "Notice how" you obliterated Lord Jesus Christ's context in John 3:3-21 according to His blessed climax of "But he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God.” (John 3:21) - you ejected John 3:21 from your response post.

Additionally, as a matter of Spiritual Truth (John 14:6), God causes me to "Notice how" you seat yourself as your own author and perfecter of your own faith/belief thus your heart supplants the true Author and Perfecter of the faith/belief (Hebrews 12:2) - you literally removed Author and Perfecter of the faith from your response post.

Righteously, as a matter of Spiritual Truth (John 14:6), God causes me to "Notice how" Life is Lord Jesus Himself as mentioned by Him in John 3:3-21 for the Righteous One says "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father except because of Me" (John 14:6).

In this blessed dialog, the Author and Perfecter of the faith declares the ordained order of salvation:

1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2 this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
9 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not receive our testimony. 12 If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. 14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal Life.
16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal Life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his works will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”
(John 3:1-21)
​

As a matter of Truth (John 14:6), God causes me to "Notice how born again" very specifically the born again in John 3:3-8 precedes even believing the signs performed by Christ!

Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men that leads to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE AUTHOR AND PERFECTER OF THE ONE TRUE FAITH!!!

 

[TomL]

As a matter of Truth (John 14:6), God causes me to "Notice how born again" very specifically the born again in John 3:3-8 precedes the believes in John 3:9-16!

Furthermore, as a matter of Spiritual Truth (John 14:6), God causes me to "Notice how born again" very specifically the born again was slashed by you in your contextual slaughtering of John 3:3-8 from your response post.

That is an absurd argument. Jesus is not giving a sequence in those verses and is just extolling the need for being born again

It is not until Nicodemus asks

John 3:9–15 (UASV) — 9 Nicodemus answered and said to him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly I say to you, we speak what we know, and we bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony! 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe; how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 And no one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man. 14 And just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of man must be lifted up, 15 so that everyone believing in him will have eternal life.”

that we receive the answer

 

[TomL]

Furthermore, as a matter of Spiritual Truth (John 14:6), God causes me to "Notice how born again" very specifically the born again was slashed by you in your contextual slaughtering of John 3:3-8 from your response post.

Sorry you assert but prove no such thing. Newsflash your opinion are not biblical evidence

Moreover, as a matter of Spiritual Truth (John 14:6), God causes me to "Notice how" you obliterated Lord Jesus Christ's context in John 3:3-21 according to His blessed climax of "But he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God.” (John 3:21) - you ejected John 3:21 from your response post.

Works? We are not saved by works but as even noted below

This unusual expression reflects an underlying issue in the narrative, namely, that people’s response to Jesus is indicative of their relation to God. The trial constituted by Jesus’ mission exposes whether one’s deeds are in conformity to its true judgement, and thus those who do the truth are revealed to be on the side of God rather than the world, which is opposed to the divine verdict

Andrew T. Lincoln, The Gospel according to Saint John (Black’s New Testament Commentary; London: Continuum, 2005), 156.

One response to Jesus correlates to their relation with God

Additionally, as a matter of Spiritual Truth (John 14:6), God causes me to "Notice how" you seat yourself as your own author and perfecter of your own faith/belief thus your heart supplants the true Author and Perfecter of the faith/belief (Hebrews 12:2) - you literally removed Author and Perfecter of the faith from your response post.

Note the word our does not appear in the greek text

Hebrews 12:2 (KJV 1900) — 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Hebrews 12:2 (NIV) — 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.




The King James Version is misleading, and narrows the scope of the passage. For "author," render "leader or captain," and see the note at <Hebrews 2:10>. For "finisher," render "perfecter." For "our faith," render "faith" or "the faith." Not our Christian faith, but faith absolutely, as exhibited in the whole range of believers from Abel to Christ. Christ cannot be called the author or originator of faith, since the faith here treated existed and worked before Christ. Christ is the leader or captain of faith, in that he is the perfecter of faith. In himself he furnished the perfect development, the supreme example of faith, and in virtue of this he is the leader of the whole believing host in all time. Notice the recurrence of the favorite idea of perfecting. Compare <Hebrews 2:10; 5:9; 6:1; 7:11,19,28; 9:9; 10:1,14; 11:40>. Teleiootees (grk 5051) "perfecter," occurs only here in the New Testament, not occurring in the Septuagint. Not occurring in Classical writers. (from Vincent’s Word Studies of the New Testament)

Calvinists also often misapply Hebrews 12:2 to this concept of faith being an exclusive gift to a Gnostic-style set of pre-selected elect people. The use of this verse is the equivalent of the Calvinist screaming at the top of his lungs that context means nothing to him and that he has no idea what the passage is talking about. They see their buzz words and think that it is an excellent opportunity for them to import their ideas, and in so doing, they miss the entire point, and self[1]identify as the milk-sop in Hebrews 5:11-13. This is not a text book of theological proof texts.When Calvinists use this verse, the idea they’re bringing to it is that Jesus is authoring the individual’s volitional belief in the gospel and then carries that belief through until the person’s death. But this has absolutely nothing to do with that nonsense whatsoever. This verse is addressing the continuity of the faith for the Jew from the Mosaic Torah and Old Testament to faith in Christ under the New Testament. The tempting mindset for the Jew of that day would be to say that “Jehovah and Moses got us started in our faith, and now we’ve changed channels so Jesus and wrap it up and finish it off.”Hebrews 12:2 (KJV) 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.Back in chapter 1, the author reminded the reader that the same God who spoke to their fathers in times past in diverse and sundry manners has now spoken through His Son, Jesus Christ. Then in chapter two, don’t let these things slip. Then by time the epistle (or midrash) is about to be wrapped up, the writer reminds the reader that this is not two different programs. They did not transition from the Old Testament to the New Testament to start a brand new system of faith or a new religion, but that this same Jesus is the author of everything that their fathers ever rightly believed as deliberated back in chapter 11, and it is the same Jesus who is the finisher. Thus, Jesus is “the author and finisher of our faith,” the audience being Hebrews who have relatively recently come to believe in Jesus of Nazareth as the Savior and Jewish Messiah.Even if one wanted to take this concept out of the context and apply it the way Calvinists eisegete it, it still would not help them. Of course Jesus is the author and finisher of the faith. How could someone put their faith in Jesus if there was no Jesus to put their faith in? Jesus is a real historical person, and He is the manifestation in the flesh of the real, historical God. There can be no faith without the object of that faith first presenting itself for trust and reliance.
Saved note lost source

Righteously, as a matter of Spiritual Truth (John 14:6), God causes me to "Notice how" Life is Lord Jesus Himself as mentioned by Him in John 3:3-21 for the Righteous One says "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father except because of Me" (John 14:6).

And no one has any life unless

John 6:53 (NIV) — 53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

He believes in and comes to Christ

So faith precedes being born again

 

[Kermos]

Appreciate this coming from you brother and just to let you know-I concur with your posts.
God bless and Shalom to you and family.
Johann.

Praise the Lord Jesus!!!

"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it" (Matthew 7:14).

God bless you, Johann!

 

[Kermos]

You failed to address even a single verse

And you do not know the meaning of sovereignty

John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.

John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

How much exegesis is needed to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

men will be able to believe based on the apostle's testimony



Acts 19:8 (ESV) — 8 And he entered the synagogue and for three months spoke boldly, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God.

Paul persauded men concerning the Kingdom of God

Acts 17:2–4 (ESV) — 2 And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ.” 4 And some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a great many of the devout Greeks and not a few of the leading women.



Convincing them Jesus was the Christ



Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.



Even the preaching of the old testament is sufficient






John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief

2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As is the preaching of it.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.



John 7:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 And many of the people believed on him, and said, When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath done?



Miracles have power to bring about faith



John 5:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?



Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief

Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed

Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

The adversary steals the word away so men will not believe

Luke 8:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.



What need is there to steal away a word which cannot be believed?

no answer

And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right (the Word of God, Luke 12:57)

Since God caused me to address the verses that you posted, then your "You failed to address even a single verse" is delusional.

But, wait, there's more. God caused me to post the definition of "sovereign" for this "sovereignty" concept that God revealed to me previously, so your "you do not know the meaning of sovereignty" is delusional.

Since sovereign means "one that exercises supreme, permanent authority" (https://www.thefreedictionary.com/sovereign), and you fiercely argue that man "exercises supreme, permanent authority" over Jesus Christ (Free-willian Philosophy), then you exclude Jesus as the "one that exercises supreme, permanent authority" over man.

But he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God (the Word of God, John 3:21).

This absolutely wonderful saying of Lord and God Jesus Christ (John 3:21) means that any and all righteous works of a Christian are wrought in God; in other words, the good works of us Christians are truly our Father in Heaven working in us for His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13)!

Take a look at Acts 19:8 which you quoted, and that "persuaded" is governed by "But he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (the Word of God, John 3:21). And so it goes.

This means that your self-proclaimed sovereignty effectively establishes that you are self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10).

But if your eye is evil, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness (the Word of God, Matthew 6:23).

If you then, who are evil (Jesus speaking to the Apostles, Matthew 7:11).

Since man is evil from the outset of being born in the flesh (Ephesians 2:1, 1 Corinthians 15:46), then there is no way that man in evil darkness can perceive and believe in King Jesus of the Kingdom of God except by the gracious intervention of King Jesus (John 3:3-8).

Since you believe that sovereign man chooses to believe in King Jesus of the Kingdom of God, then you also believe God is not sovereign over man because sovereign man is outside of God's Sovereignty according to your Free-willian Philosophy.

He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son (the Apostle Paul, Colossians 1:13).

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!!!

 

[Johann]

Praise the Lord Jesus!!!

"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it" (Matthew 7:14).

God bless you, Johann!

Having said that-doesn't mean I'm still struggling brother since there are things I have to let go and things I'm still grappling with re the Scriptures.
You and @mailmandan are the only two that edify me thus far.
Thank you brother and Shalom to you and family.
Johann.

 

[Johann]

Again what you seek to impose upon the Acts 16:30, 31 text is preposterous. If Paul truly meant that THEY didn't have to do anything as you Calvinist wrongly assert he would have told them so, clearly and in no uncertain terms.

When the one asked Paul, "What must I do to be saved" if he believed Calvinistic thinking he would have said clearly and without question, "NOTHING!" He would have told him right on the spot, "It's up to God whether you'll be saved or not saved so no need to even ask the question!"

Let's keep Calvin out of the equation and concentrate on Scriptures.

to be = in order that (Greek. hina) I may be. This man was under deep conviction of sin, "shaken to his foundations". He was ready to be told of the Lord Jesus Christ. To bid people to believe, who are not under conviction, is vain.

Believe on. *Act_2:38; *Act_2:39; **Act_4:12; *Act_8:12; *Act_8:37; +Act_10:43; Act_11:13-14; *Act_13:38; *Act_13:39; Act_15:11, *Isa_45:22, Hab_2:4, +Mar_10:52; *Mar_16:16, Luk_8:12, **Joh_1:12; **Joh_3:15; **Joh_3:16; **Joh_3:36; *Joh_6:29; *Joh_6:40; *Joh_6:47; *Joh_7:37; *Joh_7:38; *Joh_11:25; *Joh_11:26; **Joh_20:31, Rom_3:22-24; *Rom_5:1; *Rom_5:2; **Rom_10:9; **Rom_10:10; 1Co_1:21, *Gal_3:22; *Gal_3:26, **Eph_2:7; **Eph_2:8, Heb_10:39, Jas_2:14, 1Pe_1:21; **1Jn_3:23; **1Jn_5:10-13.
the Lord Jesus Christ. +Act_1:21; Act_24:24, Luk_23:42, Rom_10:8, Gal_3:27.
saved. Act_16:17, Act_2:21; Act_2:47; **+Act_4:12; Act_11:14; Act_15:1; Act_15:11.
and thy house. FS121J4, +Gen_7:1, *Act_16:15 note, *Act_16:32, +*Act_2:39; Act_10:2; +Act_11:14; *Act_18:8, Gen_7:1; +*Gen_17:7; +*Gen_18:19, Jos_2:18-19, 1Ki_17:15, Isa_54:13, Jer_32:39, *Luk_19:9, *Rom_11:16, +*1Co_7:14 note. Gal_3:14.


1) "And they said," (hoi de eipen) "Then they said," both Paul and Silas simultaneously asserted, responded affirmed in concord or in harmony to this convicted, emotionally stirred, unsaved, dissatisfied, sinner. They came directly to the point of what he then needed to be saved. He had heard the word, thru their testimony, Rom_10:17; Luk_14:35; He had been convinced and convicted that he was a sinner and needed salvation, in penitent trembling words he asked, and was firmly told:

2) "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ," (pesteuson epi ton kurion lesoun) "Believe thou (for yourself) on the Lord Jesus." Imperatively, they commanded or exhorted this sinner, who had heard the word, and been convicted that he was not saved, to believe on or place his trust upon the Lord Jesus, with the following assurance for all who seek the Lord, Isa_45:22; Isa_55:6-7; Joh_1:16; Joh_1:18; Joh_5:24; 1Jn_5:10; Act_4:12.

3) "And thou shalt be saved," (kai sothese su) "And thou shalt (personally) be saved," exist in a saved or delivered state or condition, even as all ever saved before him had done, Act_10:43; Rom_1:16; Rom_4:3-5; Rom_4:16.


Who is the cause of this conviction?