Then you do not understand total inability
Total inability means man cannot believe and God must in fact effectually cause him to believe
An Article on free will
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Total inability means man cannot believe and God must in fact effectually cause him to believe
The Rogue Tomato
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Non-sequitur.
Johann
Well-known member
John 1:12: "Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God."
John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
John 4:14: "But the water that I shall give him shall become in him a well of water springing up into eternal life."
John 4:23: "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the ones who seek Him."
John 5:38: "You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he sent."
John 5:40: "You are unwilling to come to me to have life."
John 5:43: "I have come in my Father's name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him."
John 6:36: "But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe."
Romans 5:8: "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
Romans 10:9: "If you declare with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."
These scripture references emphasize the universal invitation to salvation through Jesus Christ, highlighting the importance of faith and the availability of salvation for all people.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Wow, you can post a bunch of scripture quotes. You forgot to mention how they relate to the fact that what he said is a non-sequitur.
Johann
Well-known member
I understand you position-GOD WORKS IN MYSTERIOUS WAYS.
Job_9:10 Which doeth great things past finding out; yea, and wonders without number.
Rom_11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
Rom 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
Shalom
civic
Well-known member
Correct some don’t understand what they claim to believe with tulip
It requires regeneration to remedy in Calvinist theology
In your mind perhaps
But not in Calvinist theology
When it comes to total depravity, the inability of which we speak is first and foremost moral inability. In our fallenness, though we have a will and can discern the good, we lack the ability to choose rightly, to exercise our wills in the proper direction of absolute dependence on God and submission to His will. To put it another way, we are dead with respect to the things of God, to that which He finds pleasing. That is what Paul says in today’s passage. Before our Creator makes us alive spiritually, we are dead in our trespasses and sin, and we cannot help but serve the world, the flesh, and the devil. Dead bodies are incapable of doing anything but remaining in the state of death. If they are to come alive again, they must be acted upon by an outside being, even God Himself at the resurrection. Spiritually dead people cannot do anything but remain in the state of spiritual death. They require an outside being—the sovereign Lord—to restore them to spiritual life. https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/total-moral-inability
and not in Lutheran theology according to this
Lutheran view
The Lutheran view does not use the term 'Total Depravity' but rather 'bondage of the will.' The sinner's will is viewed as fallen, and hence in bondage to sin. The sinner is unable to come to God without the grace of God. Man no longer has any remnant of the divine image he was created in. Man is taught as having a complete lack of freedom in spiritual matters and unable to spiritually grasp so as to believe or trust what is heard or learned. In this teaching, faith itself must be bestowed by the Holy Spirit.
civic
Well-known member
Yes he doesn’t know reformed theology we have to teach them all of the time
You would think those on an internet forum would know
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Let me ask you this: What is the opposite of inability? And how does one get to the opposite of inability? Just wondering if that reminds you of a scripture somewhere. Hint: It has nothing to do with CAUSING anything.
Are you admitting your doctrine requires that God must effectually cause man to believe or he will not?
The issue is what does reformed theology teach
ALL those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, he is pleased, in his appointed and accepted time, effectually to call, by his word and Spirit,b out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good; and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.h
II. This effectual call is of God’s free and special grace alone, not from any thing at all foreseen in man; who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit, he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it.
Westminster Assembly, The Westminster Confession of Faith: Edinburgh Edition (Philadelphia: William S. Young, 1851), 61–64.
Your gods fail you, TomL, for your god Robertson (of whom you manipulate context) has you preaching "He cannot see the kingdom of God. To participate in it as in Luke 9:27", so you self-willed redefine the word see (ἰδεῖν (Strong's 3708 - ὁράω (horaó) - to see, perceive, attend to) into the word participate based on your self-willed purpose to enable yourself to perceive King Jesus of the Kingdom of God in direct disobedience to the Word of God "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3).
Now, you call "nonsense" this blessed Word of God "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3), and no Christian calls the Word of God "nonsense".
"Your personal ad hominem" attacks against the Word of God are preposterous.
You self-willed redefine the word see (ἰδεῖν (Strong's 3708 - ὁράω (horaó) - to see, perceive, attend to) into the word experience based on your purpose to enable yourself to perceive King Jesus of the Kingdom of God in direct disobedience to the Word of God "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3).
You, TomL, cannot experience King Jesus of the Kingdom of God without being born of God.
You, TomL, cannot perceive King Jesus of the Kingdom of God without being born of God.
You, TomL, cannot see King Jesus of the Kingdom of God without being born of God.
Experience is included in the Lord’s words, but not at the exclusion of perceive.
FIRST comes born of God (John 3:3-8).
SECOND comes believing (John 3:9-15).
The order is first comes John 3:3-8 and second comes John 3:9-15.
Lord Jesus was not simply talking about "observe", in Truth (John 14:6), King Jesus is talking about "perceive" in "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3).
As to the believes in John the Baptists "He who believes in the Son has eternal life" (John 3:36), this believes is controlled by the Word of God who says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent
(John 6:29).
As to the does not obey in John the Baptists "he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him" (John 3:36), this does not obey applies to every Free-willian Philosopher who says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot experience but that one can perceive the kingdom of God" (TomL 3:3) in abominable contradiction to the clear, precise and pure Word of God "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3).
And, again, as to the does not obey in John the Baptists "he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him" (John 3:36), this does not obey applies to every Free-willian Philosopher who says "This is NOT the work of God BUT THIS IS THE WORK OF MAN, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (TomL 6:29) in abominable contradiction to the clear, precise and pure Word of God "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).
And, more again, as to the does not obey in John the Baptists "he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him" (John 3:36), this does not obey applies to every Free-willian Philosopher who says "I judge what is right in order to believe in Jesus on my own initiative" (the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9)) in abominable contradiction to the clear, precise and pure Word of God "why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right" (Luke 12:57).
And, even more again, as to the does not obey in John the Baptists "he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him" (John 3:36), this does not obey applies to every Free-willian Philosopher who says "I come Jesus as wrought in my own self-will" (unrighteous man (2 Peter 2:9-10)) in abominable contradiction to the clear, precise and pure Word of God "he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21).
And, even more again, as to the does not obey in John the Baptists "he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him" (John 3:36), this does not obey applies to every Free-willian Philosopher who says "I chose Jesus, so He must give salvation to me" (the traditions of man (Matthew 15:9)) in abominable contradiction to the clear, precise and pure Word of God "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).
Lord Jesus starts narrowly with the nonborn of God person being unable to see King Jesus of the Kingdom of God with "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3).
Nicodemus asked "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he" (John 3:4) in response to the Lord’s proclamation. Notice that Nicodemus asked about the work of man which he asserted as entering a second time into his mother’s womb and be born.
The Word of God expands from the narrowly focused see (John 3:3) scope into the broader enter (John 3:5) scope with the blessed saying "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit" (John 3:5-8). Notice that Jesus incorporated enter (John 3:5) after Nicodemus used enter (John 3:4); therefore, Jesus uses see (John 3:3) to illuminate the nonborn of God person's inability to see King Jesus of the Kingdom of God (John 3:3), and Jesus uses enter (John 3:5) to illuminate the nonborn of God person's absence of internal strength to enter King Jesus Christ's Kingdom of God.
See, Jesus says "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6); therefore, that which is born of the flesh is not born of the Spirit, so the flesh nonborn of God person is unable to see King Jesus of the Kingdom of God because the nonborn of God person is not born again/born of God.
Your contrived "context" of "Two verse later we see the idea is to enter" is your heart adulterating John 3:3 into "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (TomL 3:3) which is the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).
Strong's is a numbering system to reference particular Greek words, so your "you preach the words of your gods named Strongs" is folly.
The concept of "see" and "perceive" is the definition of the Greek word ἰδεῖν (Strong's 3708 - ὁράω (horaó) - to see, perceive, attend to).
You persist in your folly outlined here:
- you preach the words of your gods named "Arndt, Bauer, Danker, Gingrich, Brannan, Jamieson, Fausset, Brown, Robertson", and "Calvin" as your heart's treasure (whether your heart breaks their context or not).
- your heart's "As seen the context of John 3:3 is speaking of experiencing not believing as you falsely claimed" is you adulterating the Word of God from the wonderful "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (the Word of God, John 3:3) into your abomination as based on the word of your Lord Arndt "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot experience the kingdom of God" (the word of TomL per his A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, William Arndt et al., page 221).
- your heart's "As seen the context of John 3:3 is speaking of experiencing not believing as you falsely claimed" is you breaking the context of the consecutive sequence of "see/perceive/believe" as evidenced in the specific mention of John 3:3-8 preceding John 3:9-15 in that which God caused me to write of "In John 3:3-8, the Word of God declares that God must first cause a person to be born of God in order for a person to see/perceive/believe King Jesus of the Kingdom of God, and the Word of God immediately proceeds in John 3:9-15 to declare the resultant effect for the born of God person which is to believe in Christ"; moreover, Lord Jesus had me continue "The implication of this for John 3:16 is that God causes the born of God person to believe in Christ" illuminating that born again and believe are distinct yet related.
- The Greek word ἰδεῖν (Strong's 3708 - ὁράω (horaó) - to see, perceive, attend to) accurately translates to see/perceive just as God had me write regarding "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3); in contrast, your prophecy of "It is clear an honest handling of this word shows it pertains to experience" for the Greek word ἰδεῖν (Strong's 3708 - ὁράω (horaó) - to see, perceive, attend to) is absent from the definition of the Greek word ἰδεῖν concept, so your prophecy (1 John 4:1) excluding "perceive" in John 3:3 is your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) own interpretation a.k.a. false prophecy.
In closing point #4, above, we see/perceive that your closing paragraph "Only by mistranslating and changing the meaning of words can you hold to your doctrine" is false that you wrote against the writing that God caused me to compose.
In fact, your mistranslation of "experience" for the Greek word ἰδεῖν (Strong's 3708 - ὁράω (horaó) - to see, perceive, attend to) means that your "Only by mistranslating and changing the meaning of words can you hold to your doctrine" applies to you.
The hearts of Free-willian Philosophers bludgeon the Word of God recorded in John 3:16 by wickedly isolating this Word of God from his larger contiguous discourse in John 3:3-21 which not only initiates with God's control over the salvation of man but it also culminates with God's control over the salvation and sanctification of man with "he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21).
Your heart makes false statements about God. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE AUTHOR AND PERFECTER OF THE ONE BELIEF THAT SAVES!!!
Stop the worship of yourself which causes you to disregard context, the whole council of God, lexicons and Greek expert commentary and to distort what was posted
The context itself tells you what the meaning is
John 3:3–5 (NASB 2020) — 3 Jesus responded and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a person be born when he is old? He cannot enter his mother’s womb a second time and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Notice the word Jesus uses in his reply
Experience - enter the kingdom of God is the meaning established by context
The kingdom does not come with observation
Luke 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
hello the kingdom is not something you see with your eyes according to Jesus himself
In your self aggrandizement, you ignore the very words of Christ
Noted lexicons support such understanding
5. see someth.=experience someth. (Ps 26:13); good days 1 Pt 3:10 (Ps 33:13; τ. βασιλείαν J 3:3 BAGD industry standard lexicon
and cites John 3:3 as carrying such a meaning
5. LN 90.79 experience an event or state, the figurative extension of first entry (Jn 3:36
James Swanson, Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains: Greek (New Testament) (Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997).
citing a similar passage
John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
4. to experience: τ. θάνατον, Lk 2:26, He 11:5; ζωήν, Jo 3:36; τ. διαφθοράν, Ac 2:27. A manual Greek lexicon of the New testament
and greek commentary
He cannot see the kingdom of God (οὐ δυναται ἰδειν την βασιλειαν του θεου [ou dunatai idein tēn basileian tou theou]). To participate in it as in Luke 9:27. For this use of ἰδειν [idein] (second aorist active infinitive of ὁραω [horaō]) see John 8:51; Rev. 18:7.
A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 3:3.
See” (ἰδεῖν aor. act. inf. of ὁράω; a complementary inf. after δύναται) here means “ ‘to experience, encounter, participate in,’ as, e.g., in ‘see death’ (8:51), ‘see life’ (3:36)” (Brown 130
Murray J. Harris, John (Exegetical Guide to the Greek New Testament; B&H Academic, 2015), 72.
it was not just A.t Robertson but noted lexicons and noted Greek expositors
Then there is the truncated version of Strongs you present as though it were the whole of the matter when it is not
3708. ὁράω horao, hor-ah´-o; properly, to stare at (compare 3700), i.e. (by implication) to discern clearly (physically or mentally); by extension, to attend to; by Hebraism, to experience; passively, to appear: — behold, perceive, see, take heed.
but you disingenuously presented as though it was
So we have context, scripture from parallel use, scripture contradicting the idea of observation, lexical data and Greek commentary all supporting the idea of experiencing entering into
As opposed to your own self affirming self deifying opinion
You have no evidence at all to offer, nothing new, and nothing which rebuts what I have posted above
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Johann
Well-known member
International Standard Bible Encyclopedia - Experience
EXPERIENCE
eks-pe'-ri-ens:
This word is employed 3 times. In Genesis 30:27 the King James Version, Laban says, to Jacob, "I have learned by experience (the Revised Version (British and American) "divined") that Yahweh hath blessed me for thy sake." Here it translates the Hebrew nachash, "to observe diligently," as when one examines the entrails of a bird or animal for the purpose of divination. In Ecclesiastes 1:16, the writer says, "I have gotten me great wisdom ....; my heart hath had great experience of wisdom and knowledge." Here the Hebrew (ra'ah) means "hath seen abundantly," and the idea seems to be that of a wide outlook combined with actual trial of the things discovered or known.
In Romans 5:4 the King James Version, the Greek word dokime (the American Standard Revised Version more correctly "approvedness"), means the proof or testing of a thing. We rejoice in tribulation because it works out or produces patience, while the latter develops an experience of God, i.e. it brings out as a proved fact His power and love toward us in our preservation in and deliverance from trial.
Thus it is seen the Bible use of the word is not different from the ordinary, which means "the sum of practical wisdom taught by the events and observations of life," or, to go a little farther, the personal and practical acquaintance with what is so taught. Hebrews 5:13 gives a good practical example. the King James Version says, "Every one that useth milk is unskillful (apeiros) in the word of righteousness:
for he is a babe," while the Revised Version (British and American) renders "unskilful" by "without experience of." The thought is that he who fails to search out the deep things of the word of God is so lacking in the exercise of his spiritual senses as to be unable really to know truth from error.
James M. Gray
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Johann
Well-known member
Never mind.
