brightfame52
Well-known member
Im not posting what you see. But what I see, I have no control over what you see or dont see.
An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
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brightfame52
Well-known member
You still have a law keeping Justification, how is that believing in Jesus ? Jesus death Justified them He died for, not their law keeping faith. He kept the Law for them He died for, and it Justified them
You claim to be a Christian. Answer the 2 questions in the following which no Christian would be afraid of answering. This is about the 3rd request.
Do you believe Lord Jesus, the Christ of us Christians, when He says "you believe in Him whom He has sent" is very explicitly "the work of God" (John 6:29)?
The result of your thoughts expressed in your post results in your heart adding "exclusively the 12 of" into the Word of God recorded in John 15:16-19 such that:
16 Exclusively the 12 of you did not choose me, but I chose exclusively the 12 of you and appointed exclusively the 12 of you so that exclusively the 12 of you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever exclusively the 12 of you ask in my name the Father will give exclusively the 12 of you. 17 This is my command: Love each other. 18 “If the world hatesexclusively the 12 of you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19 If exclusively the 12 of you belonged to the world, it would love exclusively the 12 of you as its own. As it is, exclusively the 12 of you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen exclusively the 12 of you out of the world. That is why the world hates exclusively the 12 of you.
(the word of civic)
Continuing on with your heart's thoughts, @civic, of John 15:16-19, you wrote "Jesus talking to the 12 here", but, by the time Jesus bestows these blessings to all believers in all time, Judas Iscariot departed (John 13:21-30), so that leaves 11 apostles, not your "the 12", but truly the 11, so you err with your inclusion of Judas Iscariot inside of Lord Jesus Christ's blessing of salvation with "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19).
@civic, let's dig even deeper into the wonderful words of the Word of God - let us behold the audience of Lord Jesus Christ saying "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).
At the time Jesus bestows these blessings to all believers in all time, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias (Acts 1:21-23) were also present, not your exclusively "the 12" apostles, but truly a minimum of 13 persons is contextually established, so your "exclusively the 12 apostles" is in error.
At the time Jesus bestows these blessings to all believers in all time (see John 15:16-19), the Lord explained "If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you" (John 15:20) JUST ONE VERSE AFTER JOHN 15:19, so this word of Christ's is in context with the manner the world persecutes Christians as Christ's words recorded in Mark 13:1-37 including "What I say to you I say to all" (Mark 13:37) thus context exists between John 15:16, John 15:19, John 15:20, and Mark 13:37, so you err with your exclusion of all Christians in all time.
Friend Of Jesus (John 15:15) Relation To Exclusive Choice By Jesus (John 15:16)
Lord Jesus immediately adjacently joins persons chosen by Jesus with selfsame persons being friends of Friend Jesus (John 15:15-16).
I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:15-16)
Free-willians disavow Christ's words of "you did not choose me" (John 15:16) for themselves while at the same time declaring the words as exclusively applicable to the apostles; therefore, free-willians deny being a friend of Jesus which Jesus covers in the self-same sayings.
A friend of Jesus marvels at the glorious exclusive work of God's salvation of man; on the other hand, an enemy of Jesus steals the exclusive glory of man's salvation from God by saying things like "I chose Jesus", yet God does not give His glory to another (Isaiah 42:8).
By the Power of God, for God's glory (Isaiah 42:8), the friend of Jesus bears good fruit/works because apart from Jesus a person can do nothing (John 15:5).
By the Power of God, by God's grace, for God's glory (Isaiah 42:8), the friend of Jesus is saved from the wrath of God because Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19).
Do you think you are a friend of Jesus, @civic?
Jesus is the only One in the New Testament that talks about Jesus Christ's friends, not Paul, not Peter, but Jesus alone, and He says He chooses His friends right here recorded in John 15:15-16.
We Christians believe the Christ exclusively chooses persons unto salvation:
- "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
- "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
- "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.
We Christians are blessed of God to be chosen by Lord Jesus without us being required to do any kind of work because the Word of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation)! PRAISE BE TO THE LORD GOD ALMIGHTY!!!
civic
Well-known member
I believe everything Jesus said and taught. Do you ?
Judas was a friend of Jesus and chosen by Him.
Being chose and elect does not mean one is saved. Israel was Gods chosen and elect people yet most all of them were lost which is why Jesus and Paul wept over their unbelief.
I once believed exactly like you for over 4 decades when I was a staunch calvinist. I repented and no longer espouse those aberrant teachings from calvin. They are false doctrines spawned by fatalists/determinists.
hope this helps !!!
brightfame52
Well-known member
civic
Well-known member
quote the scripture
civic
Well-known member
@jeremiah1five I quoted you below from another thread.
13 And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles; 14 Simon, (whom he also named Peter,) and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew, 15 Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called Zelotes, 16 And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor. Lk 6:13–16.
I know better not to contradict the Lord. If He named Judas Iscariot an "apostle" then Judas was an apostle. What am I going to say? Judas was not an apostle and call Jesus a liar?
14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach, Mk 3:14.
To "be with Him" implies intimacy.
2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;
4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him. Mt 10:2–4.
14 Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests, Mt 26:14.
10 And Judas Iscariot, one of the twelve, went unto the chief priests, to betray him unto them. Mk 14:10.
20 And he answered and said unto them, It is one of the twelve, that dippeth with me in the dish. Mk 14:20.
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
Jn 6:71.
43 And immediately, while he yet spake, cometh Judas, one of the twelve Mk 14:43.
47 And while he yet spake, lo, Judas, one of the twelve, came Mt 26:47.
47 And while he yet spake, behold a multitude, and he that was called Judas, one of the twelve Lk 22:47.
3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve. Lk 22:3.
The name Yeshua (Joshua) was also an extremely popular name in Jewry but you don't see this signification assigned to Jesus.
I don't reject or make excuses for what Judas did, but what was it that he did? What was his betrayal? Do you know? His great, big sin which the entire world has condemned him to "hell" and eternal separation from God?
You know Jesus assigned "greater" sin and smaller sins, yes? Yes, all sin, as David said, is against God. But what's worse? Raping a woman or stealing a candy bar? What's worse, murder or bearing false witness? Do you know Jesus called Judas "friend?" There is only one other person whom God called "friend": Abraham. Now, that is a remarkably high association.
Judas wasn't the only one to sin against Jesus that night. The disciples all betrayed him when the ran away at Jesus' greatest need. Who had the greater sin, Peter, or Judas.
Peter denied the Lord, even outright rejected him three times before the cock crowed while Judas pointed Jesus out and said, the one I kiss, that's Him, that's the Christ, the One you want.
What was Judas' sin as accepted by the remaining disciples?
16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. Acts 1:15–17.
Guide. No matter the object but is being a "guide" worse than child molestation? Or murder?
It says without ambiguity that Jesus "named Judas apostle." Later, after Saul came on the scene with his books and parchments and Scriptures, he says that only God can "make" an apostle (1 Cor. 12.) So, Christ "made" Judas an apostle, and not only that, but also assigned him the honor of having his name inscribed in the foundation of the wall of New Jerusalem (Rev. 21.)
brightfame52
Well-known member
Judas was a child of perdition, to be lost Jn 17:12
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
His lostness was determined by scripture, Gods predestination
civic
Well-known member
brightfame52
Well-known member
Judas was chosen, just not for salvation, but to damnation and perdition, he had no choice. It would have been better for him to not have been born Matt 26:24
The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Not only was judas chosen for perdition, all the non elect were.nope its called foreknowledge not predestination.
nice try though.
If you can read can you post what the enlarged red highlighted text states
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified
And insist on replacing the word of God with your man made gnostic inspired theology
Some will just not let the text speak for itself
Please consider:
The flim flam of exegesis is that for anyone to get the meaning of a verse from the verse itself without any input from their mindset and unfiltered by existing ideas, is on the order of Paul's conversion as a bright light and hearing GOD's voice. Every interpretation of a verse is eisegesis, the fitting of the verse into our previously accepted definitions.
Hello i quoted BAGD
2 Peter 2:9–10 (KJV 1900) — 9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: 10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
Does nothing at all to address the issue
Sorry you are just repeating false claims. There is nothing in the passage stating men have no ability to receive Christ
We know for a fact some did receive him
John 1:12 (KJV 1900) — 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
further John had just stated'
John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
examine how john uses the term receive here
John 5:43–47 (KJV 1900) — 43 I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. 44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
that should dispel your claim about Christ entering man
Yes active not passive
it indicated something they actively did
There was no passive reception as you falsely believe
Sorry no it does not
It does state those who received him were given the right to be children of God
it is regeneration which makes one a child of God
and we are all children of God by faith
Galatians 3:26 (KJV 1900) — 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
in causing one to be born again not in choosing to receive christ
Again all are made children of God born again through faith
Galatians 3:26 (KJV 1900) — 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Repeating already addressed claim does not make them any stronger
John Calvin: “People who infer from this passage that faith is God’s gift are mistaken, for Christ does not show here what God produces in us, but what God wants and requires from us.” (The Crossway Classic Commentaries: John; Crossway Books; Wheaton, IL; 1994, p.393)
This is the work of God. This is the thing that will be acceptable to God, or which you are to do in order to be saved. Jesus did not tell them they had nothing to do, or that they were to sit down and wait, but that there was a work to perform, and that was a duty that was imperative. It was to believe on the Messiah. This is the work which sinners are to do; and doing this they will be saved, for Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth, Ro. 10:4.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 244.
Not even these noted Calvinist believe your claim
or you could have just believed scripture
Acts 16:30–31 (KJV 1900) — 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Paul did not believe you either
You are simply repeating yourself. I quoted lambano from BAGD
hello
It did not support you
Here it is again
Lambano
e. take up, receive—α. τινὰ someone εἰς into (Wsd 8:18) lit. εἰς τὸ πλοῖον take someone (up) into the boat J 6:21. εἰς οἰκίαν receive someone into one’s house 2J 10. εἰς τὰ ἴδια into his own home J 19:27. Receive someone in the sense of recognizing his authority J 1:12; 5:43a, b;
More repeat imagination. There is nothing in the text saying they were not able to receive him
You are adding to scripture which simply States they did not receive him, not that they could not
yes they actively
take up, receive—α. τινὰ someone εἰς into (Wsd 8:18) lit. εἰς τὸ πλοῖον take someone (up) into the boat J 6:21. εἰς οἰκίαν receive someone into one’s house 2J 10. εἰς τὰ ἴδια into his own home J 19:27. Receive someone in the sense of recognizing his authority J 1:12; 5:43a, b;
sorry you are simply repeating your theology again nothing states God caused them to receive Christ
You are found adding to scripture once again
Again you repeat your unproven speculations
That portion of the passage discusses the being born agasin. No one by their own will can regenerate themselves. God must do this
He does however give that right to those who receive Christ
Still repeating your self ignoring the fact even noted Calvinists disagree with you
John Calvin: “People who infer from this passage that faith is God’s gift are mistaken, for Christ does not show here what God produces in us, but what God wants and requires from us.” (The Crossway Classic Commentaries: John; Crossway Books; Wheaton, IL; 1994, p.393)
This is the work of God. This is the thing that will be acceptable to God, or which you are to do in order to be saved. Jesus did not tell them they had nothing to do, or that they were to sit down and wait, but that there was a work to perform, and that was a duty that was imperative. It was to believe on the Messiah. This is the work which sinners are to do; and doing this they will be saved, for Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth, Ro. 10:4.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 244.
Again that is your spin not even your namesake agrees with
Faith is what god requires as these greek scholars show
Believe. Faith is put as a moral act or work. The work of God is to believe. Faith includes all the works which God requires. The Jews’ question contemplates numerous works. Jesus’ answer directs them to one work. Canon Westcott justly observes that “this simple formula contains the complete solution of the relation of faith and works.”
Marvin Richardson Vincent, Word Studies in the New Testament (vol. 2; New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1887), 148–149.
The meaning is not,—that faith is wrought in us by God, is the work of God; but that the truest way of working the work of God is to believe on Him whom He hath sent.
Henry Alford, Alford’s Greek Testament: An Exegetical and Critical Commentary (vol. 1; Grand Rapids, MI: Guardian Press, 1976), 761.
they ask Him (ver. 28) τί ποιοῦμεν [better, ποιῶμεν] ἵνα ἐργαζώμεθα τὰ ἔργα τοῦ θεοῦ; that is, how can we so labour as to satisfy God? What precisely is it that God waits for us to do, and will be satisfied with our doing? To which Jesus, always ready to meet the sincere inquirer, gives the explicit answer (ver. 29) τοῦτό ἐστι … ἐκεῖνος. If God has sent a messenger it is because there is need of such interposition, and the first duty must be to listen believingly to this messenger.
Marcus Dods, The Gospel of St. John (New York: George H. Doran Company, n.d.), 752.
Salvation is the gift as per
Romans 6:23 (KJV 1900) — 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Faith answers to what man must do
Acts 16:30–31 (KJV 1900) — 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
False
John show receiving Christ is the cause of being born again (becoming children of God)
Galatians 3:26 (KJV 1900) — 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Children of God (tekna theou). In the full spiritual sense, not as mere offspring of God true of all men (Acts 17:28). Paul's phrase huioi theou (Galatians 3:26) for believers, used also by Jesus of the pure in heart (Matthew 5:9), does not occur in John's Gospel (but in Rev. 21:7). It is possible that John prefers ta tekna tou theou for the spiritual children of God whether Jew or Gentile (John 11:52) because of the community of nature (teknon from root tek-, to beget). But one cannot follow Westcott in insisting on "adoption" as Paul's reason for the use of huioi since Jesus uses huioi theou in Matthew 5:9. Clearly the idea of regeneration is involved here as in John 3:3.
Word Pictures in the New Testament. A.T.Robertson (Calvinist)
Sons (τέκνα)
Rev., more correctly, children. Son is υἱός. Τέκνον, child (τίκτω, to bring forth), denotes a relation based on community of nature
Word Studies in the New Testament.
τέκνα θ. γενέσθαι] The spiritual life owes its beginning to a birth from above, ch. 3:3–7. And this birth is owing to the Holy Spirit of God; so that this is equivalent to saying, ‘As many as received Him, to them gave He His Holy Spirit.’ And we find that it was so: see Acts 10:44.
Henry Alford, Alford’s Greek Testament: An Exegetical and Critical Commentary (vol. 1; Grand Rapids, MI: Guardian Press, 1976), 684.
And if you are going to cite uses of the word receive
John 4:45 (KJV 1900) — 45 Then when he was come into Galilee, the Galilaeans received him, having seen all the things that he did at Jerusalem at the feast: for they also went unto the feast.
John 5:41–43 (KJV 1900) — 41 I receive not honour from men. 42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. 43 I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
It is clear it notes recognizing ones authority as BAGD stated
Receive someone in the sense of recognizing his authority J 1:12; 5:43a, b;
Not if you allow scripture to interpret itself
I'll answer your question of your first paragraph with YES, I BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST THE SON OF GOD AND I LOVE THE WORD AND PRAISE HIM WHO IS THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE AND THE WAY (JOHN 14:6)!!!
There is record of a single person leaving the supper recorded in John chapters 13-17 prior to the supper's conclusion, and that person is Judas Iscariot in the John 13:21-30 passage.
Your "Judas was a friend of Jesus" is NOT founded on this blessing issued by the Word of God "I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you"
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:15-16) because Judas had already left from Christ's presence.
Your "Being chose and elect does not mean one is saved" is in direct contradiction to Christ's words of “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes being saved from the wrath of God).
You wrote "I believe everything Jesus said and taught" which means that you now answer "YES" to the question "Do you believe Lord Jesus, the Christ of us Christians, when He says 'you believe in Him whom He has sent' is very explicitly 'the work of God' (John 6:29)?", so you now express that God alone causes saving faith/belief inside of Christians. There is your answer to the first question.
Again, your thoughts of "I believe everything Jesus said and taught" means that you now answer "YES" to the second question of "Do you think you are a friend of Jesus, @civic?", so you, @civic, now reveal your confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33) as you assert that in John 15:15-16, as shown below, that Jesus' first two "you" occurrences apply to you, @civic personally, but that Jesus' second two "you" occurrences apply "exclusively to the 12":
I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:15-16).
There is your answer to the second question.
You and every free-willian are a "determinist", so to speak, for you believe that man determines whether man is saved from the wrath of God; in other words, you exalt yourself over God because your "I chose Jesus" requires, in your mind, that God must absolutely save you from the wrath of God.
I am a Christian becaus I believe that Christ alone determines whether man is saved from the wrath of God (John 15:16, John 15:19); in other words, I know God exalted Jesus to accomplish "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation)! PRAISE BE TO THE LORD OF MY AND EVERY CHRISTIAN'S SALVATION!!!
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE JESUS' HOLY NAME!!!
Newsflash Jesus shed his blood even for Judas according to Calvin
It is very clear from this, that Judas is also included in the "many" for whom Jesus died. This is also admitted to by John Calvin, where commenting on the same words in Mark's Gospel (14:24), says;
"Which is shed for many. By the word many he means not a part of the world only, but the whole human race; for he contrasts many with one; as if he had said, that he will not be the Redeemer of one man only, but will die in order to deliver many from the condemnation of the curse."
and confirmed by scripture
Luke 22:14–23 (KJV 1900) — 14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him. 15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: 16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God. 17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: 18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come. 19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. 20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. 21 But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. 22 And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed! 23 And they began to inquire among themselves, which of them it was that should do this thing.
Theophilus
Active member
Totally unbiblical made up nonsense.
