civic
Well-known member
It’s an assault on Christ
An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Where did Jesus call @Kermos and @The Rogue Tomato friend?
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Where did Jesus call Peter friend? In fact, Peter denied Christ soon after.
You live in half truths and lies.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Isn't it interesting that Matthew ADDS to the narrative.
Luk 22:22 And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!
Mat 26:24 is a Rabbinical extension often used by the Jews to denote the severity of the sin of betrayal. It is not to be taken literally.
There is no forgiveness in their @Kermos @brightfame52 @The Rogue Tomato eyes. I'm glad forgiveness isn't theirs's to approve.
You are repeating your folly that man causes himself to receive (lambano) Christ in John 1:12-13, but the below shows your deception in certain terms.
Since you are so very focused on the BAGD throughout your post, even in your closing paragraph:
e. take up, receive—α. τινὰ someone εἰς into (Wsd 8:18) lit. εἰς τὸ πλοῖον take someone (up) into the boat J 6:21. εἰς οἰκίαν receive someone into one’s house 2J 10. εἰς τὰ ἴδια into his own home J 19:27. Receive someone in the sense of recognizing his authority J 1:12; 5:43a, b;
- that God controls the "received" and the "recognizing his authority" are entirely controlled by God for it is written "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13) - THE CONCEPT EMPHASIZED IN YOUR CLOSING PARAGRAPH IS NOT CONTROLLED BY MAN.
- that BAGD extended the "take up, receive" definition of lambano in your heart with "receive someone into one’s house" as evident in your quotation of Scripture that you disbelieve "And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. (Acts 16:30–31) see "one’s house" in BAGD along with thy house (Acts 16:30-31) as a relation, and this Paul wrote that God causes people to believe and that the believe is not of yourselves/man with:
So, Paul dispelled your deception that the "Believe" in Acts 16:30-31 was of man to the glory of man, just is the conclusion of your heart's treasure. Truly God gets the glory for us believers believing in Jesus.
by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast, for we are His work
(Ephesians 2:8-10).
You wrote "Does nothing at all to address the issue" regarding 2 Peter 2:9-10, so here is Scripture to prove you wrong.
The Bondage Of A Man's Will
Free-willians, in a respect, are correct that "there's no difference between self will and free will", and that respect is that both self will and free will lead to hell.
Now, instead of listening to themselves lie with things like "Free will is all through the scriptures", they need to listen to Apostolic testimony as shown below.
Peter the Apostle wrote that prior to being saved, people have a self will that brings such people under damnation with the devil according to the Apostle Peter (2 Peter 2:9-10).
Paul the Apostle wrote that after being saved, people have a will that is bound under the loving control of God according to the Apostle Paul (Philippians 2:13).
Here's Paul from the Bible, again. Overall, Paul uses free will as illusory instead of concrete in Philemon 1:14 - and this is the only occurrence of "free will" that I am aware of in the New American Standard Bible New Testament.
Free-willians do not have a free will, as described by Paul.
Free-willians do have a self will, as described by Peter.
Free-willians gleefully separate themselves from God's will and the Christ of us Christians Who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19). We Christians in God's Spirit have a will bound enthusiastically in joy and love to God by God for God through God, as described by Paul.
The above mentioned Apostolic testimony verbatim:
- "the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority; daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10).
- "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).
- "but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will" (Philemon 1:14).
Man is saved by the Will of God alone, by God's grace for God's glory!
BAGD has lambano as "receive", so BAGD is A-OK with "receive". You conjure up false statements about the writings that God causes the Apostle John's to write as well as me to write.
Self-willed you (2 Peter 2:9-10), not free-willed you, truly self-willed you are unrepentant after you were shown your linguistic deception that the Greek word παρέλαβον (Strong's 3880 - paralambanó - to receive from) occurs as the source word for "received" in John 1:12.
Since you brought up "receive" of John 1:11, the Apostle used the word "receive" to illustrate man's inability to choose to receive [Christ] into one’s house, so to speak; therefore, the very specific Greek word that you brought up proves the error of your free-willian way.
John's words are "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12-13), and the word "received" is accurately translated from ἔλαβον (Strong's 2983 - lambanó - to take, receive), and, indeed, "received" is Aorist and active grammatically.
The Apostle indicates we "born of God" are the ones that God causes to "believe in His name" because we are the "children of God" (a.k.a. the "born of God") of whom are the ones that God causes us to be the "many as received Him" (John 1:12-13).
The Apostle John specifically disallowed your free-will to "receive" Christ in the passage with John's words of "nor of the will of man" (John 1:12-13).
Regarding the "believe" in the Apostolic testimony "believe in His name" (John 1:12-13), the Christ of us Christians lovingly declares “This is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29), so, in effect, Christ says “You believing in Him whom He has sent” “is the work of God” (John 6:29); therefore, man does not work faith/belief inside of man thus causing man to believe in Lord Jesus, but God does work faith/belief inside of man thus causing man to believe in Lord Jesus (John 6:28-29).
The people asked Jesus “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God” (John 6:28), essentially “How does the works of man work the works of God”.
Lord Jesus eliminates “the works of man” (John 6:28) entirely from the equation with His Powerful response “This is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29), and the Apostle Paul is in accord with Jesus saying that God controls faith/belief unto salvation inside of man with absolutely no input by man:
by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast, for we are His work
(Ephesians 2:8-10).
"RECEIVE" DEFINITION BY EXAMPLE:
The man received a punch to his face dislocating his septum - not by choice - but in the fury of his assailant’s surprise attack.
The pedestrian received a series of traumatic injuries - not by choice - but as a result of the car jumping the curb.
A lover receives a love letter - not by choice - but in gladness.
Receive means a thing that unavoidably came in from a source to a recipient - receive is not a choice like accept - receive just happens.
"RECEIVE" DEFINITION BY DICTIONARY:
1. TRANSITIVE VERB When you receive something, you get it after someone gives it to you or sends it to you. (Collins COBUILD English Usage (c) HarperCollins Publishers 1992, 2004, 2011, 2012)
There is a keyword in the definition, which is "after".
"RECEIVE" USAGE IN SCRIPTURE:
The Apostle John wrote "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12-13).
The Apostle John wrote receiving Christ is a result of being born of God in John 1:12-13.
The Apostle John wrote receiving Christ is not an act of the will of man in John 1:12-13.
The ones who received Christ are the ones "who were born" "of God".
Let's follow the blessed chain linking these people of whom John wrote which is the "born of God" (John 1:13, John 3:3-8) links with "believe in His name" (John 1:12, John 6:29) links with "many as received Him" (John 1:12, John 9).
Each of these are exactly the same people:
- "many as received Him"
- "children of God"
- "believe in His name"
- "born of God"
John 1:12-13 shows that you cannot cause yourself to receive Jesus.
John 1:12-13 shows that God causes people to receive Jesus.
John 1:12-13 shows that you cannot cause yourself to believe in Jesus.
John 1:12-13 shows that God causes people to believe in Jesus.
Again, here is the passage:
"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12-13).
"Peter [said] to them, 'Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.'" (Acts 2:38-39, this was Peter's response after the people who were pierced to the heart by Peter's proclamation of the Word of God inquired "Brethren, what shall we do" in Acts 2:14-37)
Peter issued the command "think differently from now on" (repent) and the command "be immersed in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins" and here is where "receive" comes in, "you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" which is an act of God.
The word "receive" means "unavoidably enters"; on the other hand, the word "accept" means "allowed to enter".
The work of "accept" is specifically disallowed in the passage with "nor of the will of man" because man causes not man to be "born of God" nor man causes to "believe in His name", whom are the "children of God", nor man causes to be the "many as received Him" (John 1:12-13).
The grammatical sense of the word "receive" indicates Christ "unavoidably enters" a joyfully receptive person according to the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24) because the Apostle indicates the "born of God" are the ones that God causes to "believe in His name", whom are the "children of God", whom are the ones that God causes to be the "many as received Him" (John 1:12-13).
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Freewill is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE ONE HOLY SOVEREIGN TRUE GOD, LORD JESUS CHRIST!!!
brightfame52
Well-known member
You still have a law keeping Justification, how is that believing in Jesus ? Jesus death Justified them He died for, not their law keeping faith. He kept the Law for them He died for, and it Justified them
brightfame52
Well-known member
No its not, his damnation/lostness was fulfilling scripture, which is Gods predestination, before he was ever born Jn 13:18
I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
Jn 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Sorry you are simply repeating your sorry old claims which were shown insufficient
You have ignored Calvinist commentators, Calvinist Greek Scholars, industry standard lexicons, parallel texts
read your theology into passages where it did not exist.
Twisted passages by appeal to a non parallel text while mishandling an active voice verb as though it was a passive
Receive Christ is something they did not something that happened to them
the active voice refutes your claim
Am I to assume you cannot read the text?
as was asked
If you can read can you post what the enlarged red highlighted text states
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified
What excuse can you offer for not doing so?
Theophilus
Active member
Hello anybody home? You're saying that if you're not a calvinist then you were chosen like Judas. It's not what Jesus said.
While I was with them, I protected and preserved them by Your name, the name You gave Me. Not one of them has been lost, except the son of destruction, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled. John 17:12
So please allow me to reiterate Just for clarity. What you posted above is Totally unbiblical made up nonsense.
Theology by assumptionnope its called foreknowledge not predestination.
nice try though.
it's what happens when one has a presuppositional theology and does not test his presumptions
brightfame52
Well-known member
Law keeping wont save you friend.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Clifford
Active member
brightfame52
Well-known member
All the non elect were chosen for perdition as Judas was, Im not denying I said that. They were made by God as vessels of wrath and fits them for destruction.
Clifford
Active member
You're making that up. You're blinded by your False theology. It's obvious.
brightfame52
Well-known member
We will see at the Judgment if I had a scripture basis for it
Clifford
Active member
You'll see me right here.
Alive
Member
Then you need to see an optometrist.
Here's Tom's post And there's nothing in it about being justified by the law
Your response two he post above:
Can you see what I'm talking about. There's no there there. And as far as this day of judgment you keep harping on, Here's what you sound like.
Alive
Member
What are you talking about? Did you even read the post?
Alive
Member
Oh brother talk about self-righteous. That is so childish.
