An Article on free will

[brightfame52]

The points raised in the question can be addressed with biblical scriptures:

1. God's Predetermination of Disobedience:
   • God's sovereignty and foreknowledge are evident in various biblical verses. For instance, in Romans 9:17-18, it is stated that God raised up Pharaoh for the very purpose of displaying His power and making His name known. This illustrates God's control over events, even those involving disobedience.
   • Another example is found in Acts 2:23, where it is mentioned that Jesus was handed over to be crucified according to God's deliberate plan and foreknowledge.
2. God's Disapproval of Sinful Behavior:
   • While God may allow disobedience as part of His plan, it is important to note that He does not approve of sinful behavior. In Romans 6:1-2, the apostle Paul addresses the notion that grace may abound where sin increases, emphasizing that believers should not continue in sin.
   • Additionally, in 1 John 3:4, sin is defined as lawlessness, highlighting God's stance against disobedience.

These verses from the Bible demonstrate the complex interplay between God's sovereignty, human disobedience, and His disapproval of sinful behavior.

God predetermined some to disobey Him and punish them for it. He appointed some to disobey the word and He will punish them for it 1 Pet 2:8

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

 

[brightfame52]

We were not talking about the enemy of God but those who are supposed to be his children.

I dont know what you talking about, Im saying God predetermines people to disobey and then punishes them for it justly.

 

[civic]

I dont know what you talking about, Im saying God predetermines people to disobey and then punishes them for it justly.

BLASPHEMY

 

[brightfame52]

BLASPHEMY

No its not, He did it to pharoah as an illustration. God determined he would disobey His moral command, then to punish him for the same. Theyre called vessels of wrath which HE fits them for everlasting destruction.

 

[civic]

No its not, He did it to pharoah as an illustration. God determined he would disobey His moral command, then to punish him for the same. Theyre called vessels of wrath which HE fits them for everlasting destruction.

Like I said isolating one verse out of context does not trump the 100’s of others that say the opposite of what you believe. Scripture unanimously favors my view.

 

[brightfame52]

Like I said isolating one verse out of context does not trump the 100’s of others that say the opposite of what you believe. Scripture unanimously favors my view.

One verse is the word of God, every word is pure Prov 30 5

Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

 

[TomL]

I dont know what you talking about, Im saying God predetermines people to disobey and then punishes them for it justly.

That is not just

You don't punish a puppet

 

[brightfame52]

That is not just

You don't punish a puppet

Yes it is just, He can make people for that purpose if He wants, besides He made it so He punishes them for their sins that they willfully committed against Him

 

[Rockson]

He can make people for that purpose if He wants, besides He made it so He punishes them for their sins that they willfully committed against Him

So for you he makes people for that purpose...for that purpose....he ordains them to do what they do beforehand......but then you swing back and say they're willfully committing sin against him? Willful? Willful.....Where do you get willful if he ordained them to do it AND....there's no option they can do any different? I think the world would be stunned and shocked if they could actually see the way Calvinists think. What a sad, sad, very sad thing.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

So for you he makes people for that purpose...for that purpose....he ordains them to do what they do beforehand......but then you swing back and say they're willfully committing sin against him? Willful? Willful.....Where do you get willful if he ordained them to do it AND....there's no option they can do any different? I think the world would be stunned and shocked if they could actually see the way Calvinists think. What a sad, sad, very sad thing.

In other words, what you're saying is, “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” I think you know the answer that comes after that.

 

[TomL]

Yes it is just, He can make people for that purpose if He wants, besides He made it so He punishes them for their sins that they willfully committed against Him

Willfully? You mean the sins you were determined to do

It's a warped sense of Justice that calls for punishment of what one was made to do.

The so

 

[Rockson]

In other words, what you're saying is, “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” I think you know the answer that comes after that.

Sorry RT but it's not about what comes after that but what should have happened before. Before you quoted this verse. You should have realized what the meaning of the whole passage was truly all about. Trusting and hoping that someday you will see the light.

 

[Rockson]

Willfully? You mean the sins you were determined to do

It's a warped sense of Justice that calls for punishment of what one was made to do.

And i don't say this to be unkind to them but it seems to me all Calvinists are playing a game of bluff.

They would NEVER, ever, ever, ever, ever believe what they're saying calling such "justice" If it involved anybody else who was found guilty in a court of law of controlling, determining, or ordaining someone's actions and giving a verdict the one controlled should be punished. NEVER.

They know it would be against rational, reasonable just thinking to consider that they should. And yet they come over into their religious paradigm and somehow how reasonable credible thinking goes out the window. I can only hope that they will recover themselves from this GREAT ERROR. It doesn't seem to me they can really have any peace without making a change.

 

[brightfame52]

So for you he makes people for that purpose...for that purpose....he ordains them to do what they do beforehand......but then you swing back and say they're willfully committing sin against him? Willful? Willful.....Where do you get willful if he ordained them to do it AND....there's no option they can do any different? I think the world would be stunned and shocked if they could actually see the way Calvinists think. What a sad, sad, very sad thing.

Yes those whom He made as vessels of wrath to fit them for destruction, He causes them to sin willfully against Him so He is just in His Punishing them. Again pharoah had no choice but to willfully disobey Gods command and so God was just in plaguing him.

Those who crucified Christ were acting under the power of Divine predestination yet at the same time they were guilty and blamable Acts 2:23

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

 

[brightfame52]

@TomL

Willfully? You mean the sins you were determined to do

Yes. Paul anticipated the same thing you are saying after this hard teaching of the Gospel and says Rom 9:17-19

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

 

[Kermos]

Yes happy now

In context it was Christ words to the disciples messengers he had chosen

Nothing there concerning on what basis he chose them

By God's grace and for God's glory, I inquired of you, "Do you think you are a friend of Jesus, TomL?", and your response, "Yes" is visible, above.

Let's take a look at Lord Jesus Christ's usage of "you" with which the above question and answer pertains:

​

I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you​

(John 15:15-16 (you replied to a fully quoted John 15:14-19 (links to KJV, NASB1995, and YLT)))​

​

You express conflicted thoughts about the population of Christ's "you" in the passage. I remind you for this exchange that I consider you to write "apostles" whenever you write "disciples".

Your response of "Yes" shows your personal claim of being part of the "you" population inside of God's blessing of "I have called you friends" (John 15:15), but then in the continuation of the very same blessing, your heart's "it was Christ words [exclusively] to the disciples messengers he had chosen" eliminates you, TomL, from being a part of the "you" population inside of God's blessing of "I chose you" (John 15:16); therefore, you are not a chosen friend of Jesus according to your own self-willed heart's treasure which leavens your whole loaf of free-willian philosophy (Matthew 16:6).

In effect, your "Yes" and "it was Christ words [exclusively] to the disciples messengers he had chosen" expresses a confused (1 Corinthians 14:33) "Yes No" concept about the audience represented in Christ's "you" recorded in John 15:14-19.

You wrote "Nothing there concerning on what basis he chose them" which conveys your thoughts that, somehow, the Apostles chose Jesus thus your purported choice executed by the Apostle's is your purported "basis" for Jesus choosing the Apostles, yet every Christian's Lord Jesus Christ says "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16), so God eliminates any purported free-will choosing by man towards God; therefore, your "basis" conjecture provides only shifting sand diversion away from the Truth (John 14:6) for you.

King Jesus decrees over the Kingdom of God:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

The only way for free-willian philosophers to acheive free-will is for them to add to the Word of God, and it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

No Holy Scripture states man has a free-will.

Every person has a will, but a person's will is either one of but not both of (1) a self-will against God in evil for the natural flesh person (2 Peter 2:9-10) or (2) a will in Christ doing God's good by the Holy Spirit for the Born of God (Romans 8:29, Philippians 2:13, John 3:3-8).

 

[TomL]

@TomL



Yes. Paul anticipated the same thing you are saying after this hard teaching of the Gospel and says Rom 9:17-19

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Nope

In Context Pauls objector is a hardened Jew who thought he was owed mercy.

There is nothing in the passage which states God creates men to be vessels of wrath

The jews who God selected for noble purposes because of unfaithness would now be used for the ignoble purpose of crucifying the messiah

 

[TomL]

By God's grace and for God's glory, I inquired of you, "Do you think you are a friend of Jesus, TomL?", and your response, "Yes" is visible, above.

Let's take a look at Lord Jesus Christ's usage of "you" with which the above question and answer pertains:

​

I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you​

(John 15:15-16 (you replied to a fully quoted John 15:14-19 (links to KJV, NASB1995, and YLT)))​

​

You express conflicted thoughts about the population of Christ's "you" in the passage. I remind you for this exchange that I consider you to write "apostles" whenever you write "disciples".

Your response of "Yes" shows your personal claim of being part of the "you" population inside of God's blessing of "I have called you friends" (John 15:15), but then in the continuation of the very same blessing, your heart's "it was Christ words [exclusively] to the disciples messengers he had chosen" eliminates you, TomL, from being a part of the "you" population inside of God's blessing of "I chose you" (John 15:16); therefore, you are not a chosen friend of Jesus according to your own self-willed heart's treasure which leavens your whole loaf of free-willian philosophy (Matthew 16:6).

In effect, your "Yes" and "it was Christ words [exclusively] to the disciples messengers he had chosen" expresses a confused (1 Corinthians 14:33) "Yes No" concept about the audience represented in Christ's "you" recorded in John 15:14-19.

You wrote "Nothing there concerning on what basis he chose them" which conveys your thoughts that, somehow, the Apostles chose Jesus thus your purported choice executed by the Apostle's is your purported "basis" for Jesus choosing the Apostles, yet every Christian's Lord Jesus Christ says "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16), so God eliminates any purported free-will choosing by man towards God; therefore, your "basis" conjecture provides only shifting sand diversion away from the Truth (John 14:6) for you.

King Jesus decrees over the Kingdom of God:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

The only way for free-willian philosophers to acheive free-will is for them to add to the Word of God, and it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

No Holy Scripture states man has a free-will.

Every person has a will, but a person's will is either one of but not both of (1) a self-will against God in evil for the natural flesh person (2 Peter 2:9-10) or (2) a will in Christ doing God's good by the Holy Spirit for the Born of God (Romans 8:29, Philippians 2:13, John 3:3-8).

The context concerns his disciples. His messengers when he was on earth

That does not mean there cannot be an extended application

Again you have posted nothing which speaks of unconditional election

His disciples were given to him by the Father to whom they belonged

John 17:1–8 (ESV) — 1 When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. 6 “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7 Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. 8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.

 

[brightfame52]

Nope

In Context Pauls objector is a hardened Jew who thought he was owed mercy.

There is nothing in the passage which states God creates men to be vessels of wrath

The jews who God selected for noble purposes because of unfaithness would now be used for the ignoble purpose of crucifying the messiah

Yep same exact thing, man cant accept the Truth of God in Salvation, he believes its not fair

 

[Kermos]

Yep same exact thing, man cant accept the Truth of God in Salvation, he believes its not fair

God bless you, brightfame52,

As you know, the Apostle Paul's writing is "Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will".

@TomL adds "hardened Jew" into Paul's writing changing the writing in the writing of TomL "Thou hardened Jew wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will".

Just as God has made known to you, salvation "depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy" (Romans 9:16), so no person free-will chooses God yet God chooses man (John 15:16-19), and TomL needs to read without adding to nor contradicting the Holy Writ.