And you imagine you are a superior translator to all the ones we have right?
An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
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jeremiah1five
Well-known member
QUESTION: Do animals have free will?
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
No, I'm saying the original language MSS we have are superior to any English translation. There are Greek words and tenses that don't have direct English equivalents, so the English translation ends up simply wrong. I imagine it's the same for Hebrew but I don't know Hebrew as well as I know Greek.
And you know they are wrong because?
Rockson
Well-known member
Sorry RT but what would surprise me is that anyone would take what you're saying too seriously having seen you say this. No translation has got anything right on the subject? None? How can it be that all Christendom has been so deprived not having you a part of a translation committee?
Rockson
Well-known member
I notice now you say English translation singular and not English translations plural. But you said prior there wasn't ANY English translation that got it right. So are you making it singular now and not plural as in ALL for you know now how ridiculous your claim comes across? So you do believe now some English translations got it right?
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
You wrote "All you offer is the translation of a name as opposed to a translation of the verb", but נְדָבָ֖ה (Strong's 5071, wrongly translated as "freewill offering") is a noun, not a verb as you wrongly preach, but truly a "N-fs" (Noun, feminine, singular) as shown in the attached image.
Also, nouns and verbs are frequently related conceptually, and a name is a noun, so your reasoning is flawed.
A maltranslation of the Bible's original language is not an accurate translation of the Bible, and a little leaven leavens the whole loaf (Matthew 16:6), in other words a little maltranslation disqualifies the whole translation from being accurately called the Bible, so you provided no documentation.
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With the noun clarification post #288 truthfully refuting your post there, let's turn back to the Word of God that you unceremoniously deleted in your post #277.
The Unchangeableness of God and the Will of God
Many people preach that God has a free-will.
The common free-willian refrain is along the lines of "God has freewill. Christ has freewill. Man was made in their image/likeness. Result? = Man has free will." (an actual free-willian quote).
So, the free-willian philosophy holds that God free-will chooses to change between good and evil, and, since God created man in God's image according to God's likeness (Genesis 1:26), then man does precisely the same as God; therefore, man free-will chooses to change between good and evil.
A Will Requires A Host
First, the definition of free must be considered.Free denotes:
- of autonomy:
- (noun) no constraint, uncontrolled, liberty, not enslaved, emancipation.
- (verb) disentangled, extricate, untangle.
- of property:
- (noun) complimentary, without charge, gratis, no payment required.
- (verb) give away, sacrifice.
The word "free" represents a relative concept, as shown in the following paragraph; in other words, a person is "free" from "something".
A person in a constitutional republic, such as the U.S.A., is free to start a business (free from being captives of the tyranny of the King of Great Britain per the U.S. Declaration of Independence), but a person in a communist country, such as North Korea, is NOT free to start a business (communist citizens are captives (owned) by their government).
Second, the definition of free-will must be considered.
Free-will: an autonomous will, an isolated willpower, detached volition, independent moral agency.
Next, considering "will", a will exists not in a vacuum; in other words, a will must be part of a host.
Respecting an unsaved person - the default first condition of every person, since a host (person) is required to host a will, then the person's will is part of the person's self, so the person's will is self-will because the person'a will is attached to the self-same person; on the other hand, the person's will is not free floating detached from the person, so the person's will is not free-will.
The Apostle proclaims a person's will is either one of but not both of:
- a person's will is controlled by God with "God having purified your souls in the obedience of the Truth through the Spirit" (1 Peter 1:21-22) and "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).
- a person's will is controlled by man with "the Lord knows how" "to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority, daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10).
While the unrighteous unbelievers daringly revel in their own glory founded in their self-willed "I chose Jesus" (2 Peter 2:9-10) thus their hearts steal King Jesus Christ's glory, on the other hand, we righteousness of God in Christ believers worship the Glorious One (2 Corinthians 5:21) who sovereignly chose us (John 15:16, John 15:19 includes salvation).
Thus says Adonai YHWH (Lord GOD) "I am YHWH; that is my name; my glory I give to no other" (Isaiah 42:8), yet the free-willians try to steal God's exclusive glory in the salvation of man.
God's Will is not free will because a free-will does not have a host, yet a host is required for an associated will to exist; therefore, the Will of God is God's Will. See God's Will mentioned in 1 Peter 2:15.
NO SCRIPTURE STATES THAT GOD HAS A FREE-WILL.
God is unchangingly good (Malachi 3:6, Psalm 107:1) for the Word of God says "no one is good except God alone" (Mark 10:18), so God is exclusively good all the time while at the same time God never changes to being evil.
In effect, free-willian philosophy includes that God imparted God-like free-will into man, and it is established that man free-will chooses between being good and being evil according to man's God-like free-will; therefore, God's free-will results in God fluctuating between good and evil because man's God-like free-will fluctuates between good and evil, so God changes to being evil by free-willian philosophers preaching that God has free-will.
THE RESULT, MAN CANNOT HAVE A GOD-LIKE FREE-WILL BECAUSE GOD CANNOT HAVE A FREE-WILL.
NO SCRIPTURE STATES THAT MAN HAS A FREE-WILL.
Free-will philosophy includes the man generated foundation that, by free-will, man can choose to be evil or good, even the ability for a natural man to free-will choose Jesus Christ unto the good of saving himself from the wrath of God.
The Word of God declares:
- "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
- "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
- "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.
Every person has a will, but a person's will is either one of but not both of (1) a self-will against God in evil for the natural flesh person (2 Peter 2:9-10) or (2) a will in Christ doing God's good by the Holy Spirit for the Born of God (Romans 8:29, Philippians 2:13, John 3:3-8).
Sorry that is nothing more than bald denial
many verses were produced speaking of free will or a synonym
and all you offer is your unqualified rejection
(ARV 2005) but without thy mind I would do nothing, that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(ASV-2014) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(Anderson) but, without your consent, I was not willing to do any thing, that your good deed might not be as a matter of necessity, but one of free-will.
(ASV) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(FAA) but I did not want to do anything without your opinion, so that your good deed would not be as it were under compulsion, but of free will.
(GDBY_NT) but without your consent I did not wish to do anything; in order that your good might not be by constraint, but by the free will:
(GW) Yet, I didn't want to do anything without your consent. I want you to do this favor for me out of your own free will without feeling forced to do it.
(csb) But I didn't want to do anything without your consent, so that your good deed might not be out of obligation, but of your own free will.
(LEB) But apart from your consent, I wanted to do nothing, in order that your good deed might be not as according to necessity, but according to your own free will.
(MRC) but without your consent I did not want to do anything, that your goodness might not be by necessity, but of your own free will.
(MNT) But without your consent I was unwilling to do anything, so that your kindness to me might be of your own free will, and not of compulsion.
(NTVR) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(Revised Standard ) but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own free will.
(RNT) but without your consent I am unwilling to do anything, so that your goodness may not be of necessity but of free will.
(RSV-CE) but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own free will.
(TLV) But I didn’t want to do anything without your consent, so that your goodness wouldn’t be by force but by free will.
(WEB) But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(WEB (R)) But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(Wuest's) Georgia;;14-16 But I came to a decision in my heart to do nothing without your consent, in order that your goodness might not be as it were by compulsion but of your own free will. For perhaps on this account he was parted for a brief time in order that you might be possessing him fully and forever, no longer in the capacity of a slave, but above a slave, a brother , a beloved one, beloved most of all by me, how much more than that by you, both in his human relationship and in the Lord.
(NASB77) 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, that your goodness should not be as it were by compulsion, but of your own free will.
(NASB95) 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.
(TEV) 14 However, I do not want to force you to help me; rather, I would like for you to do it of your own free will. So I will not do anything unless you agree.
(ERV) 14 but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(NHEB) 14 But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(TCE) 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.
CT 14 but I would not do any thing without thy consent, that the benefit derived from thee might not be as it were forced, but of free will.
NENT 14 but without thy: mind I wished to do nothing; that thy: goodness be not as of necessity, but of free will.
SLT 14 But without thy judgment I would do nothing; that good might not be as according to necessity, but according to free will.
(NEB) 14 But I would rather do nothing without your consent, so that your kindness may be a matter not of compulsion, but of your own free will.
(REB) 14 But I would rather do nothing without your consent, so that your kindness may be a matter not of compulsion, but of your own free will.
(RASV)but without your consent I would do nothing; that your goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(UASV)but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by necessity but of your own free will.
Lev 22:18Speak unto Aaron, and to his sons, and unto all the children of Israel, and say unto them, Whatsoever he be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers in Israel, that will offer his oblation for all his vows, and for all his freewill offerings, which they will offer unto the Lord for a burnt offering;
Num 15:3And will make an offering by fire unto the Lord, a burnt offering, or a sacrifice in performing a vow, or in a freewill offering, or in your solemn feasts, to make a sweet savour unto the Lord, of the herd, or of the flock:
Exod 36:3And they received of Moses all the offering, which the children of Israel had brought for the work of the service of the sanctuary, to make it withal. And they brought yet unto him free offerings every morning.
Lev 22:23Either a bullock or a lamb that hath any thing superfluous or lacking in his parts, that mayest thou offer for a freewill offering; but for a vow it shall not be accepted.
Ps 54:6I will freely sacrifice unto thee: I will praise thy name, O Lord; for it is good.
Amos 4:5And offer a sacrifice of thanksgiving with leaven, And proclaim and publish the free offerings: For this liketh you, O ye children of Israel, saith the Lord God.
Ezra 1:4And whosoever remaineth in any place where he sojourneth, let the men of his place help him with silver, and with gold, and with goods, and with beasts, beside the freewill offering for the house of God that is in Jerusalem.
Ezra 2:68And some of the chief of the fathers, when they came to the house of the Lord which is at Jerusalem, offered freely for the house of God to set it up in his place:
Ezek 46:12Now when the prince shall prepare a voluntary burnt offering or peace offerings voluntarily unto the Lord, one shall then open him the gate that looketh toward the east, and he shall prepare his burnt offering and his peace offerings, as he did on the sabbath day: then he shall go forth; and after his going forth one shall shut the gate.
2 Chron 31:15And next him were Eden, and Miniamin, and Jeshua, and Shemaiah, Amariah, and Shecaniah, in the cities of the priests, in their set office, to give to their brethren by courses, as well to the great as to the small:
Ezra 1:6And all they that were about them strengthened their hands with vessels of silver, with gold, with goods, and with beasts, and with precious things, beside all that was willingly offered.
Deut 23:23That which is gone out of thy lips thou shalt keep and perform; even a freewill offering, according as thou hast vowed unto the Lord thy God, which thou hast promised with thy mouth.
2 Chron 31:14And Kore the son of Imnah the Levite, the porter toward the east, was over the freewill offerings of God, to distribute the oblations of the Lord, and the most holy things.
Lev 22:17And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
Num 15:4Then shall he that offereth his offering unto the Lord bring a meat offering of a tenth deal of flour mingled with the fourth part of an hin of oil.
1 Chron 29:6Then the chief of the fathers and princes of the tribes of Israel, and the captains of thousands and of hundreds, with the rulers of the king’s work, offered willingly,
Lev 22:21And whosoever offereth a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the Lord to accomplish his vow, or a freewill offering in beeves or sheep, it shall be perfect to be accepted; there shall be no blemish therein.
Lev 7:16But if the sacrifice of his offering be a vow, or a voluntary offering, it shall be eaten the same day that he offereth his sacrifice: and on the morrow also the remainder of it shall be eaten:
Ezra 7:13I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.
Strongs 5069 is a verb
Hello
Ezra 7:13
| which are minded of their own freewill |
| 7 מִתְנַדַּ֣ב |
| miṯ·nǎd·dǎḇʹ |
| נדב |
| VuR-MSA V for verb |
| 5069 |
So, you now call the 11 Apostles all liars because all 11 of the remaining Apostles were with the Apostle Peter when Peter said:
Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.' So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias.
(Acts 1:21-23)
Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more people beyond the 11 Apostles for a minimum total of 13 disciples who are specifically identified at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17; therefore, Lord Jesus Christ's "you" in John 15:16 and John 15:19 extends well beyond the Apostles, in Truth (John 14:6)!
Your "There are no others in the audience is Spiritually false.
Essentially, you excluded everyone from being the audience except the Apostles from Christ's words recorded in "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).
You persist in adding the words "apostles" and "here" into the Word of God such that the following results, "you apostles here did not choose Me, but I chose you here apostles" and "I chose you here apostles out of the world", but that is clearly the addition of your heart and not the Word of God.
My Lord and my God Jesus Christ has been with me since the beginning when I first believed. Praise be to to the Savior of a wretch like me!
It sounds like you reject that concept for yourself.
King Jesus is talking to all His disciples in all time in His words recorded in John 15:1-27. Praise to the Rock of my salvation!
God causes me proclaim to you again and again that Lord Jesus Christ's "you" in John 15:16 and John 15:19 extends to all believers in all time because the Lord placed no limitation for the blessing to the "you". You deceptively place a limitation where my Lord placed no limitation.
This paragraph illumines the lie that you wrote right there. At the time Jesus bestows these blessings to all believers in all time (see John 15:16-19), the Lord explained "If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you" (John 15:20) JUST ONE VERSE AFTER JOHN 15:19, so this word of Christ's is in context with the manner the world persecutes Christians as Christ's words recorded in Mark 13:1-37 including "What I say to you I say to all" (Mark 13:37) THUS CONTEXT EXISTS BETWEEN JOHN 15:16, JOHN 15:19, JOHN 15:20, AND MARK 13:37, so Biblical Context does not support your claim.
But the Lord does say something about people who do not keep His words (John 14:23-24), and people who deny applicability of His words of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) are people who fall under the group "He who does not love Me does not keep My words" (John 14:24).
Do you think you are a friend of Jesus, TomL?
Jesus says "you" with reference to His friends as recorded in John 15:14-19, and Jesus says "you" with reference to His exclusively chosen ones as recorded in John 15:14-19.
The blessing by Jesus to the "you" as recorded in John 15:14-19 is to all believers in all time.
You are My friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. This I command you, that you love one another. If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you
(John 15:14-19, KJV, NASB1995, and YLT)
Newsflash That does not show they were there on that occasion
It was his disciples that were there
John 15:8 (KJV 1900) — 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
John 16:17 (KJV 1900) — 17 Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father?
John 16:29 (KJV 1900) — 29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
his words were addressed to his disciples that were in the audience at that time while he was on the earth
There are many choices
The choice here is of his messengers
In the parable of the wedding feast
The messengers were chosen
his people were chosen
all were chosen to be invited in
but only those properly arrayed in the wedding garment gained entrance however
You have provided nothing that states men were unconditionally chosen for salvation
rather you have assumed it.
Personal rhetoric has been ignored
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You time warped from the Exodus centuries and centuries to the distant future of the Israelite return from the exile as if you can free-will cause the noun "generous" (Strong's 5070 - נדב - ndb - an Israelite name, generous, noble) to convert the verb "freely offers" into free-will offers, but the root word in Ezra 7:13 is נדב (Strong's 5070 - נדב - ndb - an Israelite name, generous, noble) for the word מתנדב (Strong's 5069 - מתנדב - mtndb - to volunteer, offer freely).
Ezra wrote:
I make a decree that anyone of the people of Israel or their priests or Levites in my kingdom, who freely offers to go to Jerusalem, may go with you
(Ezra 7:13)
Recall the definition of free in post #266 just a few posts back on this immediate exchange.
The word "free" means either "of autonomy" or "of property".
The word "freely" is on the "of property" side, so "freely" does mean plentifully and liberally and generously in Ezra 7:13.
The word "freely" is not on the "of autonomy" side, so freely does not mean disentangled nor detached nor the illusory free-will in Ezra 7:13.
The equally accurate translation is:
I make a decree that anyone of the people of Israel or their priests or Levites in my kingdom, who generously offers to go to Jerusalem, may go with you
(Ezra 7:13)
Absolutely no free-will is recorded in Ezra 7:13. See the context, Israelites were permitted to generously leave their businesses/property/stuff behind in Babylon in order to go to rebuild Jerusalem.
Your "Hello" was you directing an insult to me, but you failed to recognize that God caused me to cover verb forms, too, with "nouns and verbs are frequently related conceptually, and a name is a noun, so your reasoning is flawed".
You deceptively contorted “freely” (plentiful, generous, abundant) into the illusion of “freewill”, yet “freewill” is not found in the Old Testament, but “generous offering” is found in the Old Testament, and this continued Scriptural explanation demonstrates this fact.
Sorry Strongs H5069 does not have a meaning of generous
Ezr 7:13 R1I have issuedH7761 a decreeH2942 that anyH3606 of the peopleH5972 of IsraelH3479 and their priestsH3549 and the LevitesH3879 in my kingdomH4437 whoH1768 are willingH5069 to goH1981 to JerusalemH3390, may goH1981 with you.
You have chosen the wrong Strongs number
and no translation reads generous at Ezra 7:13
Ezra 7:13 (NASB 2020) — 13 I have issued a decree that any of the people of Israel and their priests and the Levites in my kingdom who are willing to go to Jerusalem, may go with you.
Ezra 7:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.
Ezra 7:13 (ESV) — 13 I make a decree that anyone of the people of Israel or their priests or Levites in my kingdom, who freely offers to go to Jerusalem, may go with you.
Ezra 7:13 (LSB) — 13 I have issued a decree that any of the people of Israel and their priests and the Levites in my kingdom who freely offer to go to Jerusalem, may go with you.
Ezra 7:13 (NIV) — 13 Now I decree that any of the Israelites in my kingdom, including priests and Levites, who volunteer to go to Jerusalem with you, may go.
Ezra 7:13 (UASV) — 13 I have issued a decree that any of the people of Israel and their priests and the Levites in my kingdom who are willing to go to Jerusalem should go.
5069 נְדַב, הִתְנַדָּבוּ [nâdab /ned·ab/] v. Corresponding to 5068; TWOT 2848; GK 10461 and 10219; Four occurrences; AV translates as “freely offered” once, “freewill offering” once, “offering willingly” once, and “minded of their own freewill” once. 1 to volunteer, offer freely. 1A (Ithpael). 1A1 to volunteer. 1A2 to give freely, offer freely.
James Strong, Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon (Woodside Bible Fellowship, 1995).
You are quoting a mistranslation of the word by some translators, so you are misled by a mistranslation. The below illuminates this point.
Do not forget, God had me show you the context of generosity by the Israelites in the post to which you replied in respect to Ezra 7:13, but you just neglected crucial context.
Almighty God impels people to make an offering in the Old Testament, in Truth (John 14:6).
During the lifetime of Moses, this sequence of Hebrew letters אביהוא carried a specific contextual significance for a Hebrew language fluent person hearing or reading the Hebrew word.
During the Exodus, the same timeframe as Moses, another sequence of Hebrew letters נדב carried a specific contextual significance for a Hebrew language fluent person hearing or reading the Hebrew word.
The original language Holy Scripture communicae must be comprehensively transferred to a target language in order for the target language communicae to be called Biblical; otherwise, the target language is a broken Biblical translation, or, more accurately, an unholy translation.
These Hebrew words are masked, even a mystery for a person not fluent in or unfamiliar with the Hebrew language.
The Hebrew word אביהוא translates into English as "He is Father".
The Hebrew word נדב translates into English as "generous".
The Hebrew word אביהוא has been transliterated into English as "Abihu" (Strong's 30 - אֲבִיהוּא - Abihu - אביהוא - abh - an Israelite name, He is Father (links to biblehub.com/hebrew/30.htm)).
The Hebrew word נדב has been transliterated into English as "Nabab" (Strong's 5070 - נָדָ֨ב - Nadab - נדב - ndb - an Israelite name, generous, noble (links to biblehub.com/hebrew/5070.htm)).
Let us examine a passage where these names are mentioned as transliterations:
Now Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron
(Leviticus 10:1, NASB)
Now, let us examine the same passage where these names are mentioned as translations:
Now Generous and He is Father, the sons of Aaron
(Leviticus 10:1)
The translation expresses the concept as perceived by the Hebrew language communicator around the time of the Exodus.
The Hebrew word נדבה is another word that is contemporary with the Exodus, that is, in the lifetime of Moses and Moses' slightly elder brother named Aaron.
The Hebrew word נדב (generous) is the root Hebrew word for the Hebrew word נדבה which maintains the root word concept extended to include the concept of "offering". Both of these Hebrew words share exactly the same first 3 characters.
Cumulatively, נדבה
(Strong's 5071 - נְדָבָ֖ה - nedabah - נדבה - ndbh - impelled generous offering (links to biblehub.com/hebrew/5071.htm)) denotes "generous offering", not "freewill offering" which is an unholy translation that deviates from the contemporary root word meaning of "generous".
Let us examine a passage where נדבה is translated into the deceptive form of "freewill offering" as the English translators and linguists abandon the Hebrew root word נדב (generous):
They received from Moses all the contributions which the sons of Israel had brought to perform the work in the construction of the sanctuary. And they still [continued] bringing to him freewill offerings every morning.
(Exodus 36:3, NASB)
Now, let us examine the same passage where נדבה is translated into the truthful form of "generous offering" adhering to the Hebrew root word נדב (generous):
They received from Moses all the contributions which the sons of Israel had brought to perform the work in the construction of the sanctuary. And they still [continued] bringing to him generous offerings every morning.
(Exodus 36:3)
You and your leader, Doctor Brian H. Wagner, neglect the Hebrew word חפשי which also occurs during the timeframe of Moses life.
The Hebrew word חפשי translates to the concept represented in by the English word free.
The concluding word in the following verse is חפשי (Strong's 2670 - חָפְשִׁי - chophshi - חפשי - chphsh - free):
But if the slave plainly says, "I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,"
(Exodus 21:5)
The Hebrew word חפשי (free) is entirely different from the Hebrew word נדב (generous). The Hebrew language has these two distinct words for two distinct purposes.
The Hebrew word חפשי conveys the concept of free, liberated, detached, autonomous. This Hebrew word of חפשי (free) does not appear as a modifier to the concept of a person's will nor God's Will in all of Holy Scripture.
The Hebrew word נדב conveys the concept of generous, liberally, freely, plentiful. By extension, the Hebrew word נדבה (generous offering) maintains the meaning of it's root Hebrew word נדב (generous).
All of these words are used in the Book of Exodus - all within the lifetime of Moses:
- Strong's 5070 - נָדָ֨ב - Nadab - נדב - ndb - an Israelite name, generous, noble
- Strong's 5071 - נְדָבָ֖ה - nedabah - נדבה - ndbh - impelled generous offering
- Strong's 2670 - חָפְשִׁי - chophshi - חפשי - chphsh - free
Since חפשי (free) is not part of נדבה (generous offering), then wicked men practice the lawlessness (Matthew 7:21-23) of using "free-will offering" for נדבה (generous offering) after those men have been shown the Truth (John 14:6).
The Septuagint version of Exodus 35:29 reads:
And every man and woman whose mind inclined them to come in and do all the works as many as the Lord appointed them to do by Moses- they the children of Israel brought an offering to the Lord.
(Exodus 35:29, Brenton)
The Septuagint Translation of the Old Testament (Torah) contains "an offering" with no mention of "freewill", so freewill is absent.
Freewill is not a part of the Hebrew word נדבה (generous offering) of which the English Bible translators/linguists moved from "freely" (plentiful, generous, abundant) over the centuries into "freewill", so "freewill offering" is not found in the Old Testament, but "impelled generous offering" is found in the Old Testament, and this Scriptural explanation demonstrates this fact.
At the time of the Exodus, when a person who spoke the Hebrew language heard the Hebrew word נדבה, then that person thought of the concept "generous", not "free-will", but truly "impelled generous offering"!
The written Hebrew language was a consonant only alphabet at the time of the Exodus during the lifetimes of Moses and Aaron.
Thousands of years later, vowels were introduced into the written Hebrew language. The Masoretes with their Masoretic Texts of post seventh century A.D. to pre fourteenth century A.D. added niqqud, in Hebrew orthography, a system of diacritical signs (dots and points) used to represent vowel letters in the formerly exclusively consonant written Hebrew alphabet.
Currently, the Masoretic words of נָדָ֨ב (nadab, generous, Strong's 5070) and נְדַב (nedab, to volunteer / offer freely, Strong's 5069) and נָדַב (nadab, to incite / impel, Strong's 5068) originate from exactly same Hebrew word of נדב (ndb, generous, Strong's 5070), and the evidence of this reality is visible by the removal of the Masoretic vowels leaving only the Hebrew consonants - just like the written Hebrew language existed in ancient times such as the lifetimes of Paul, Jesus, David, Moses, Aaron, and Aaron's son Generous (נדב).
These semantics demonstrate that distinguishing differences among נָדָ֨ב (nadab, Strong's 5070) and נְדַב (nedab, Strong's 5069) and נָדַב (nadab, Strong's 5068) is defective linguistics, even deceptive linguistics. נְדַב (nedab, to volunteer / offer freely, Strong's 5069) appears only in the Book of Ezra. נָדָ֨ב (nadab, generous, Strong's 5070) and נָדַב (nadab, to incite / impel, Strong's 5068) appear in the Book of Exodus.
The linguistic result illuminates the absence of the freewill concept from נדב (ndb, generous, Strong's 5070) while at the same time leaving the generous concept intact for נדב (ndb, Strong's 5070); therefore, נדבה (ndbh, Strong's 5071) means "generous offering", not "freewill offering", but "generous offering" in Truth (John 14:6).
The article FREEWILL AS TAUGHT IN SCRIPTURE by Brian H. Wagner, Ph.D., instructor of church history, theology and biblical languages at Virginia Baptist College, fails to accurately explain the original Hebrew language as utilized by the Israelites at the time of the Exodus.
Dr. Wagner's bio even states he is a Biblical language expert, but he fails to know the Hebrew language.
Because of this fact, Brian H. Wagner, Ph.D. is a deceiver preaching free-will of man (2 Timothy 3:13), and people following Wagner are deceived by thinking that they have a free will capable of choosing Lord Jesus Christ unto salvation despite the fact that the Word of God states unequivocally:
- "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), so God exclusively chooses people.
- "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
- "What I say to you I say to all" (Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
On names and their meanings, consider the prophecy,
Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: "The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel."
If this is referring to Jesus (and it is), then why wasn't Jesus named Immanuel? Because the meaning of Immanuel describes Jesus.
Nonsense
Sorry Strongs H5069 does not have a meaning of generous
Ezr 7:13 R1I have issuedH7761 a decreeH2942 that anyH3606 of the peopleH5972 of IsraelH3479 and their priestsH3549 and the LevitesH3879 in my kingdomH4437 whoH1768 are willingH5069 to goH1981 to JerusalemH3390, may goH1981 with you.
You have chosen the wrong Strongs number
and no translation reads generous at Ezra 7:13
Ezra 7:13 (NASB 2020) — 13 I have issued a decree that any of the people of Israel and their priests and the Levites in my kingdom who are willing to go to Jerusalem, may go with you.
Ezra 7:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.
Ezra 7:13 (ESV) — 13 I make a decree that anyone of the people of Israel or their priests or Levites in my kingdom, who freely offers to go to Jerusalem, may go with you.
Ezra 7:13 (LSB) — 13 I have issued a decree that any of the people of Israel and their priests and the Levites in my kingdom who freely offer to go to Jerusalem, may go with you.
Ezra 7:13 (NIV) — 13 Now I decree that any of the Israelites in my kingdom, including priests and Levites, who volunteer to go to Jerusalem with you, may go.
Ezra 7:13 (UASV) — 13 I have issued a decree that any of the people of Israel and their priests and the Levites in my kingdom who are willing to go to Jerusalem should go.
5069 נְדַב, הִתְנַדָּבוּ [nâdab /ned·ab/] v. Corresponding to 5068; TWOT 2848; GK 10461 and 10219; Four occurrences; AV translates as “freely offered” once, “freewill offering” once, “offering willingly” once, and “minded of their own freewill” once. 1 to volunteer, offer freely. 1A (Ithpael). 1A1 to volunteer. 1A2 to give freely, offer freely.
James Strong, Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon (Woodside Bible Fellowship, 1995).
The Word of God declares that a man is incapable of choosing right:
And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right? (Luke 12:57[/URL])
Free-will is a nonsense word, and an unscriptural word, too, as shown in post #266.
As @The Rogue Tomato put it to you so eloquently in post #283,
I'm saying the original language MSS we have are superior to any English translation.
Your statement of "Strongs H5069 does not have a meaning of generous" is false, and your statement is based on a maltranslation because the root word for word מתנדב (Strong's 5069 - מתנדב - mtndb - to volunteer, offer freely) is the root Hebrew word of נדב (Strong's 5070 - נדב - ndb - an Israelite name, generous, noble); therefore, you illegally convert the verb "freely offers" into "free-will offers".
The accurate translation is
I make a decree that anyone of the people of Israel or their priests or Levites in my kingdom, who generously offers to go to Jerusalem, may go with you
(Ezra 7:13)
Absolutely no free-will is recorded in Ezra 7:13. See the context, Israelites were permitted to generously leave their businesses/property/stuff behind in Babylon in order to go to rebuild Jerusalem.
Sorry you are in denial
Nonsense
Sorry Strongs H5069 does not have a meaning of generous
Ezr 7:13 R1I have issuedH7761 a decreeH2942 that anyH3606 of the peopleH5972 of IsraelH3479 and their priestsH3549 and the LevitesH3879 in my kingdomH4437 whoH1768 are willingH5069 to goH1981 to JerusalemH3390, may goH1981 with you.
You have chosen the wrong Strongs number
and no translation reads generous at Ezra 7:13
Ezra 7:13 (NASB 2020) — 13 I have issued a decree that any of the people of Israel and their priests and the Levites in my kingdom who are willing to go to Jerusalem, may go with you.
Ezra 7:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.
Ezra 7:13 (ESV) — 13 I make a decree that anyone of the people of Israel or their priests or Levites in my kingdom, who freely offers to go to Jerusalem, may go with you.
Ezra 7:13 (LSB) — 13 I have issued a decree that any of the people of Israel and their priests and the Levites in my kingdom who freely offer to go to Jerusalem, may go with you.
Ezra 7:13 (NIV) — 13 Now I decree that any of the Israelites in my kingdom, including priests and Levites, who volunteer to go to Jerusalem with you, may go.
Ezra 7:13 (UASV) — 13 I have issued a decree that any of the people of Israel and their priests and the Levites in my kingdom who are willing to go to Jerusalem should go.
5069 נְדַב, הִתְנַדָּבוּ [nâdab /ned·ab/] v. Corresponding to 5068; TWOT 2848; GK 10461 and 10219; Four occurrences; AV translates as “freely offered” once, “freewill offering” once, “offering willingly” once, and “minded of their own freewill” once. 1 to volunteer, offer freely. 1A (Ithpael). 1A1 to volunteer. 1A2 to give freely, offer freely.
James Strong, Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon (Woodside Bible Fellowship, 1995).
Wrong word number, wrong definition, and a non-existence translation is all you offer.
