An Article on free will

[TomL]

Faith/Believing is by Grace Acts 18:27

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:
The word through is the prep dia and means:

1. the ground or reason by which something is or is not done
   1. by reason of
   2. on account of
   3. because of for this reason
   4. therefore
   5. on this account
2. • of means
     1. by
     2. by the means of

Grace gets the credit for ones believing/Faith, its not of man. It cant be of man and grace, its either or. If you choose by man, its works and is condemned

Yeah the gospel is grace

Sending Christ to die is grace

Inspiring men to preach the gospel is grace

Infused faith? The bible know nothing of it

Effectually caused faith. Not in the bible

Acts 16:30–31 (ESV) — 30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

 

[brightfame52]

Yeah the gospel is grace

Sending Christ to die is grace

Inspiring men to preach the gospel is grace

Infused faith? The bible know nothing of it

Effectually caused faith. Not in the bible

Acts 16:30–31 (ESV) — 30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

They believed because of Grace Gods grace caused the believing.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Since you're enjoying Acts, Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

 

[TomL]

Since you're enjoying Acts, Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

You have to assume a number of things before that verse supports Calvinism

1 Arminians would point to foreknowledge. You would have to assume unconditional election

Luke’s statement, and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed, receives a most illuminating treatment by Dummelow:

This expresses the Pauline and Apostolic doctrine of predestination, according to which God desires the salvation of all men (1 Tim. 2:4; 4:10, etc.), but insomuch as He foresees that some (in the exercise of their free will) will actually repent and believe, while others will refuse to do so, He ordains the former to eternal life, and the latter to eternal death (Rom. 8:28–30, etc.).1

1 Charles W. Carter, “The Acts of the Apostles,”

The Calvinist interpretation doesn’t fit the context. These Gentiles were not blind, stubborn and fully obstinate, according to the Calvinist doctrine of Total Inability, but appear to have been receptive, God-fearing, sanctified worshipers of God.

2 you would have to assume a correct translation

Hart’) And hearing this the gentiles were elated and gave glory to the Lord’s word, and as many as were disposed to the life of the Age had faith;

(2001) Now, when those who came from the nations heard this, they started rejoicing and glorifying the Word of the Lord. And all those who were inclined to accept age-long life became believers.

(Mace) when the Gentiles heard this, they received the word with joy, glorifying the Lord: and as many as were dispos'd to eternal life, believed.

(Etheridge) And when the Gentiles heard, they rejoiced and glorified Aloha; and they believed who were disposed [Or, set unto.] unto eternal life.

(LHB) And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were disposed to eternal life believed.

(LONT) And the Gentiles hearing this, rejoiced, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were disposed for eternal life, believed.

that view is represented here

As many as were ordained to eternal life believed. This text has been most pitifully misunderstood. Many suppose that it simply means that those in that assembly who were fore-ordained, or predestinated by God’s decree, to eternal life, believed under the influence of that decree. Now, we should be careful to examine what a word means, before we attempt to fix its meaning. Whatever tetagmenoi (grk 5021) may mean, which is the word we translate ordained, it is neither protetagmenoi (grk 4384) nor proorismenoi (grk 4309) which the apostle uses, but simply tetagmenoi (grk 5021) which includes no idea of pre-ordination or pre-destination of any kind. And, if it even did, it would be rather hazardous to say that all those who believed at this time were such as actually persevered unto the end, and were saved unto eternal life. But, leaving all these precarious matters, what does the word tetagmenos (grk 5021) mean? The verb tattoo or tassoo (grk 5021) signifies to place, set, order, appoint, dispose; hence, it has been considered here as implying the disposition or readiness of mind of several persons in the congregation, such as the religious proselytes mentioned <Acts 13:43>, who possessed the reverse of the disposition of those Jews who spake against those things, contradicting and blaspheming, <Acts 13:45> Though the word in this place has been variously translated, yet, of all the meanings ever put on it, none agrees worse with its nature and known signification than that which represents it as intending those who were predestinated to eternal life: this is no meaning of the term, and should never be applied to it. Let us, without prejudice, consider the scope of the place: the Jews contradicted and blasphemed; the religious proselytes heard attentively, and received the word of life: the one party were utterly indisposed, through their own stubbornness, to receive the Gospel; the others, destitute of prejudice and prepossession, were glad to hear that, in the order of God, the Gentiles were included in the covenant of salvation through Christ Jesus; they, therefore, in this good state and order of mind, believed. Those who seek for the plain meaning of the word will find it here; those who wish to make out a sense, not from the Greek word, its use among the best Greek writers, and the obvious sense of the evangelist, but from their own creed, may continue to puzzle themselves and others; kindle their own fire, compass themselves with sparks, and walk in the light of their own fire, and of the sparks which they have kindled; and, in consequence, lie down in sorrow, having bidden adieu to the true meaning of a passage so very simple, taken in its connection, that one must wonder how it ever came to be misunderstood and misapplied. Those who wish to see more on this verse may consult Hammond, Whitby, Schoettgen, Rosenmuller, Pearce, Sir Norton Knatchbull, and Dodd. (from Adam Clarke Commentary)

3 you would have to deal with calvinists who deny this speaks of unconditional election

A. T. Robertson’s comment is helpful (Word Pictures. 3,200): "They rejected the word of God. On the other side were those Gentiles who gladly accepted what the Jews had rejected the word of God. On the other side were those Gentiles who gladly accepted what the Jews had rejected, not all the Gentiles. Why these Gentiles here ranged themselves on God’s side as opposed to the Jews Luke does not tell us. This verse does not solve the vexing problem of divine sovereignty and human free agency. There is no evidence that Luke had in mind an absolutum decretum of personal salvation. Paul had shown that God’s plan extended to and included Gentiles. Certainly the Spirit of God does move upon the human heart to which some respond, as here, while others push him away." See also John Wesley, Notes, in loco. God, Man, & Salvation, by W. T. Purkiser, Richard S. Taylor, Willard H. Taylor,

4
The “had been appointed to eternal life” or the “appointment to eternal life” had occurred before they heard and believed the gospel that was presented by Paul and Barnabas. However, the wording does not require that this appointment to eternal life must be a reference to eternity past. I think what the verse is telling us is that all of those who had been saved prior to their hearing the New Testament gospel subsequently believed when they heard the gospel being presented by Paul and Barnabas. At the moment of their salvation in the past, they were appointed to eternal life. When they heard about the redemptive work of Jesus the Messiah, they believed and became New Testament believers.

Pinson, J. Matthew; Forlines, F. Leroy. Classical Arminianism. The Theology of Salvation (Kindle Locations 3138-3143). Ingram Distribution. Kindle Edition.

5 the promise of

Romans 8:28 (KJV 1900) — 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

There is a golden chain of redemption for those who love God

 

[Kermos]

@TomL, no Scripture you cite states man has a free-will to choose toward God, but here is the Word of God which clearly states man does not choose God!

The gracious Benefactor of us Christians exclusively produces

1. divine choice of we beneficiaries unto salvation, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19)
   AND, Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to the Ephesians “Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him in love” (Ephesians 1:3-4)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 15:16 and John 15:19 state God exclusively chooses us believers by/of/through God
2. beneficiaries’ faith/belief in Lord Jesus, for the Christ of us Christians says (see also a word about belief/faith (Greek πίστις pistis) and believe (Greek πιστεύω pisteuó))
   “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29)
   AND Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for Paul wrote to the Ephesians “by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His work” (Ephesians 2:8-10)
   AND Peter is in accord with Jesus’ words for Peter declared “God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith” (Acts 15:8-9)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 6:29 state for us believers to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent is exclusively by/of/through God
3. beneficiaries’ fruit of the Spirit/righteous actions/good works, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (John 3:21)
   AND Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to the Philippians “being filled with the fruit of righteousness that [is] by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God” (Philippians 1:11)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 3:21 state fruit in we believers is exclusively by/of/through God
4. beneficiaries’ birth by the Holy Spirit, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit” (John 3:5-8)
   AND Peter is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to persons residing as aliens “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 3:5-8 state we believers being born again is exclusively by/of/through God
5. beneficiaries’ repent by God’s working, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (Matthew 11:25)
   AND the apostles and elders are in accord with Jesus’ words with thier saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life” (Acts 11:18)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in Matthew 11:25 state that God exclusively causes man to think differently after an encounter with God (repent means to think differently afterward)
6. beneficiaries’ love by God’s working, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another” (John 13:34)
   AND John is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God” (1 John 4:7, see the phrase “love is from God” meaning God is the source of true love)
   AND John expands with his writing of “God is Love, and the one who abides in Love abides in God, and God abides in him” (1 John 4:16, see the phrase “one who abides in Love” is equivocated with “one who abides” “in God” which extends from God’s exclusivity with “God is Love”)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 13:34 states that the love, true love (John 3:33), the very righteous love, the Godly love within us children of God, this love is exclusively by/of/through God

And here we have the Truth (John 14:6), the love of Christ controls us believers (2 Corinthians 5:14)!

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

You have to assume a number of things before that verse supports Calvinism

1 Arminians would point to foreknowledge. You would have to assume unconditional election

Luke’s statement, and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed, receives a most illuminating treatment by Dummelow:

This expresses the Pauline and Apostolic doctrine of predestination, according to which God desires the salvation of all men (1 Tim. 2:4; 4:10, etc.), but insomuch as He foresees that some (in the exercise of their free will) will actually repent and believe, while others will refuse to do so, He ordains the former to eternal life, and the latter to eternal death (Rom. 8:28–30, etc.).1

1 Charles W. Carter, “The Acts of the Apostles,”

The Calvinist interpretation doesn’t fit the context. These Gentiles were not blind, stubborn and fully obstinate, according to the Calvinist doctrine of Total Inability, but appear to have been receptive, God-fearing, sanctified worshipers of God.

2 you would have to assume a correct translation

Hart’) And hearing this the gentiles were elated and gave glory to the Lord’s word, and as many as were disposed to the life of the Age had faith;

(2001) Now, when those who came from the nations heard this, they started rejoicing and glorifying the Word of the Lord. And all those who were inclined to accept age-long life became believers.

(Mace) when the Gentiles heard this, they received the word with joy, glorifying the Lord: and as many as were dispos'd to eternal life, believed.

(Etheridge) And when the Gentiles heard, they rejoiced and glorified Aloha; and they believed who were disposed [Or, set unto.] unto eternal life.

(LHB) And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were disposed to eternal life believed.

(LONT) And the Gentiles hearing this, rejoiced, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were disposed for eternal life, believed.

that view is represented here

As many as were ordained to eternal life believed. This text has been most pitifully misunderstood. Many suppose that it simply means that those in that assembly who were fore-ordained, or predestinated by God’s decree, to eternal life, believed under the influence of that decree. Now, we should be careful to examine what a word means, before we attempt to fix its meaning. Whatever tetagmenoi (grk 5021) may mean, which is the word we translate ordained, it is neither protetagmenoi (grk 4384) nor proorismenoi (grk 4309) which the apostle uses, but simply tetagmenoi (grk 5021) which includes no idea of pre-ordination or pre-destination of any kind. And, if it even did, it would be rather hazardous to say that all those who believed at this time were such as actually persevered unto the end, and were saved unto eternal life. But, leaving all these precarious matters, what does the word tetagmenos (grk 5021) mean? The verb tattoo or tassoo (grk 5021) signifies to place, set, order, appoint, dispose; hence, it has been considered here as implying the disposition or readiness of mind of several persons in the congregation, such as the religious proselytes mentioned <Acts 13:43>, who possessed the reverse of the disposition of those Jews who spake against those things, contradicting and blaspheming, <Acts 13:45> Though the word in this place has been variously translated, yet, of all the meanings ever put on it, none agrees worse with its nature and known signification than that which represents it as intending those who were predestinated to eternal life: this is no meaning of the term, and should never be applied to it. Let us, without prejudice, consider the scope of the place: the Jews contradicted and blasphemed; the religious proselytes heard attentively, and received the word of life: the one party were utterly indisposed, through their own stubbornness, to receive the Gospel; the others, destitute of prejudice and prepossession, were glad to hear that, in the order of God, the Gentiles were included in the covenant of salvation through Christ Jesus; they, therefore, in this good state and order of mind, believed. Those who seek for the plain meaning of the word will find it here; those who wish to make out a sense, not from the Greek word, its use among the best Greek writers, and the obvious sense of the evangelist, but from their own creed, may continue to puzzle themselves and others; kindle their own fire, compass themselves with sparks, and walk in the light of their own fire, and of the sparks which they have kindled; and, in consequence, lie down in sorrow, having bidden adieu to the true meaning of a passage so very simple, taken in its connection, that one must wonder how it ever came to be misunderstood and misapplied. Those who wish to see more on this verse may consult Hammond, Whitby, Schoettgen, Rosenmuller, Pearce, Sir Norton Knatchbull, and Dodd. (from Adam Clarke Commentary)

3 you would have to deal with calvinists who deny this speaks of unconditional election

A. T. Robertson’s comment is helpful (Word Pictures. 3,200): "They rejected the word of God. On the other side were those Gentiles who gladly accepted what the Jews had rejected the word of God. On the other side were those Gentiles who gladly accepted what the Jews had rejected, not all the Gentiles. Why these Gentiles here ranged themselves on God’s side as opposed to the Jews Luke does not tell us. This verse does not solve the vexing problem of divine sovereignty and human free agency. There is no evidence that Luke had in mind an absolutum decretum of personal salvation. Paul had shown that God’s plan extended to and included Gentiles. Certainly the Spirit of God does move upon the human heart to which some respond, as here, while others push him away." See also John Wesley, Notes, in loco. God, Man, & Salvation, by W. T. Purkiser, Richard S. Taylor, Willard H. Taylor,

4
The “had been appointed to eternal life” or the “appointment to eternal life” had occurred before they heard and believed the gospel that was presented by Paul and Barnabas. However, the wording does not require that this appointment to eternal life must be a reference to eternity past. I think what the verse is telling us is that all of those who had been saved prior to their hearing the New Testament gospel subsequently believed when they heard the gospel being presented by Paul and Barnabas. At the moment of their salvation in the past, they were appointed to eternal life. When they heard about the redemptive work of Jesus the Messiah, they believed and became New Testament believers.

Pinson, J. Matthew; Forlines, F. Leroy. Classical Arminianism. The Theology of Salvation (Kindle Locations 3138-3143). Ingram Distribution. Kindle Edition.

5 the promise of

Romans 8:28 (KJV 1900) — 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

There is a golden chain of redemption for those who love God

The word is τεταγμένοι which means appointed or ordained. It has nothing to do with the disposition of the Gentiles. All you're doing is quoting people who are disposed to salvation by free-will choice, so of course they'll twist the meaning of the scripture.

Like all free-willers when it comes to soteriology, they are guilty of stealing the Glory of God for themselves.

 

[TomL]

The word is τεταγμένοι which means appointed or ordained. It has nothing to do with the disposition of the Gentiles. All you're doing is quoting people who are disposed to salvation by free-will choice, so of course they'll twist the meaning of the scripture.

Like all free-willers when it comes to soteriology, they are guilty of stealing the Glory of God for themselves.

You beg the question and you assume unconditionality.

The Calvinist interpretation doesn’t fit the context. These Gentiles were not blind, stubborn and fully obstinate, according to the Calvinist doctrine of Total Inability, but appear to have been receptive, God-fearing, sanctified worshipers of God.

Now you have to ignore the possibility they were ordained for salvation because of this previous relationship with God

So then explain how it is these totally depraved God hating sinners feared and worshipped God

Either way you have a problem

BTW AT Robertson who I quoted is a Calvinist

However God always gets the glory for salvation because he does the saving

A free response does not rob God of any glory nor does it include any blame for man not believing

 

[TomL]

@TomL, no Scripture you cite states man has a free-will to choose toward God, but here is the Word of God which clearly states man does not choose God!

The gracious Benefactor of us Christians exclusively produces

1. divine choice of we beneficiaries unto salvation, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19)

Christ's choice of the apostles

Context matters

we see the same here

John 6:70 (ESV) — 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”

1. 
   AND, Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to the Ephesians “Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him in love” (Ephesians 1:3-4)

Believers - those in Christ chosen to be holy and blameless

1. 
   “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29)

John 6:28 (KJV 1900) — 28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

The question asks what work does God require from you

The answer is that they believe

1. 
   AND Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for Paul wrote to the Ephesians “by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His work” (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Salvation - eternal life is the gift

Romans 6:23 (KJV 1900) — 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

1. 
   AND Peter is in accord with Jesus’ words for Peter declared “God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith” (Acts 15:8-9)

Yep Faith precedes receiving the Holy spirit and justification and sanctification

1. beneficiaries’ birth by the Holy Spirit, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit” (John 3:5-8)

Keep reading

Jesus tells Nicodemus what must be done to be born again

John 3:9–19 (KJV 1900) — 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

1. 
   AND Peter is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to persons residing as aliens “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3)

Of course. Man does not regenerate himself and it is only because of Christ's sacrifice and union with him that any are born again

This union is through faith

Ephesians 1:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

1. 
   AND the apostles and elders are in accord with Jesus’ words with thier saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life” (Acts 11:18)

Granted - enabled repentance though the gospel of repentance.
No infusing or effectually caused repentance

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

John 6:28 (KJV 1900) — 28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

The question asks what work does God require from you

The answer is that they believe

The answer is that it's the work of God that they believe.

 

[TomL]

The answer is that it's the work of God that they believe.

In other words the "work" God requires of you is that you believe

Jesus did not say you can do nothing, God must cause you to believe

 

[Rockson]

The answer is that it's the work of God that they believe.

So RT your Calvinism has you saying it's not the work of MAN to believe but the work of God. Of course this goes against the proper flow of the passage, so let's go over it plus something else to consider,

Then they inquired, “What must we do to perform the works of God?”
Jesus replied, “The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent.”
Jn 6:28

So they were asking what THEY needed to do to perform the works of God. If Jesus felt they needed a shift or major correction to their thinking he would have told them such. One would expect to see words like Hold it now! You're in error in how you're talking about this. It has nothing to do with anything you do, but he didn't say that. They asked a question and he told them.....to work the works of God or what God wants them to do is to believe on him! He DID NOT say God puts the believing in them! And hold on now. Let's look at one thing in this passage that I just happened to notice..... THE NEXT VERSE.

So they asked Him, “What sign then will You perform, so that we may see it and believe You? What will You do? 31Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.....

So they DID NOT take Jesus words to mean at all that they didn't need to do anything! If they did they would have said, "Well OK then! If God has got to put the believing in us then that's something he's got to do!" And they'd probably also add, "And if he doesn't do it then it's not all fault so he can't blame us for not believing."

My point. I'm sorry but you Calvinists have just not thought through on what you're saying. !

 

[civic]

The answer is that it's the work of God that they believe.

So God saves them by works lol. So much for grace.

 

[Kermos]

The word is τεταγμένοι which means appointed or ordained. It has nothing to do with the disposition of the Gentiles. All you're doing is quoting people who are disposed to salvation by free-will choice, so of course they'll twist the meaning of the scripture.

Like all free-willers when it comes to soteriology, they are guilty of stealing the Glory of God for themselves.

Very accurate.

 

[civic]

Very accurate.

Very inaccurate

◄ 4267. proginóskó ►

Strong's Concordance proginóskó: to know beforehand​ Original Word: προγινώσκω Part of Speech: Verb Transliteration: proginóskó Phonetic Spelling: (prog-in-oce'-ko) Definition: to know beforehand Usage: I know beforehand, foreknow. HELPS Word-studies 4267 proginṓskō (from 4253 /pró, "before" and 1097 /ginṓskō, "to know") – properly, foreknow; used in the NT of "God pre-knowing all choices – and doing so without pre-determining (requiring) them" (G. Archer). [See also Jer 18:8-10 on the perfect harmony of divine sovereignty and human freedom.] 5 Occurrences προέγνω — 2 Occ. προεγνωσμένου — 1 Occ. προγινώσκοντές — 2 Occ.

​

 

[Kermos]

So God saves them by works lol. So much for grace.

The work of God is God's Grace (unearned love), God is love (1 John 4:16), Lord Jesus pronounces "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

 

[civic]

The work of God is God's Grace (unearned love), God is love (1 John 4:16), Lord Jesus pronounces "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

So work means the exact opposite in Calvinism. When work is used with God it means grace and with the same word used of man it means the opposite. Sounds like special pleasing to me.

 

[TomL]

The word is τεταγμένοι which means appointed or ordained. It has nothing to do with the disposition of the Gentiles. All you're doing is quoting people who are disposed to salvation by free-will choice, so of course they'll twist the meaning of the scripture.

Like all free-willers when it comes to soteriology, they are guilty of stealing the Glory of God for themselves.

τάσσω Greek GK #5435

[5435] τάσσω tassō 8× to arrange; to set, appoint, in a certain station, Lk. 7:8; Rom. 13:1; to set, devote, to a pursuit, 1 Cor. 16:15; to dispose, frame, for an object, Acts 13:48; to arrange, appoint, place or time, Mt. 28:16; Acts 28:23; to allot, assign, Acts 22:10; to settle, decide, Acts 15:2* [5021]1

1 William D. Mounce, Mounce’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old & New Testament Words (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2006), 1288.



5021. τάσσω

latter appears only in certain tenses); to arrange in an orderly manner, i.e. assign or dispose (to a certain position or lot):- addict, appoint, determine, ordain, set.Strong’s Talking Greek and Hebrew Dictionary, G5021 (1 time)



1299. διατάσσω diatássō

from diá (1223), through, and tássō (5021), to appoint, order. To arrange throughout, to dispose in order as trees, troops. In the NT: to command, used in connection with what was appointed…The Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament, G1299 (1 time)



διατάσσω

Att. -ττω: f. ξω:—Pass., aor. i -ετάχθην: pf. -τέταγμαι:—to appoint or ordain severally, dispose, Hes., Hdt.:—absol. to make arrangements, Xen.:—Med. to arrange for oneself, get things…An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon, p 195 (1 time)



διατάσσω

διατέτᾰχα BGU1151.6 (i b.c.), prob. in OGI326.27 (Teos):—appoint or ordain severally, dispose, εὖ δὲ ἕκαστα ἀθανάτοις διέταξε Hes.Th.74; ἀνθρώποισι νόμον δ. Id.Op.276…A Greek-English Lexicon, p 414 (1 time)

 

[Kermos]

Very inaccurate

◄ 4267. proginóskó ►

Strong's Concordance proginóskó: to know beforehand​ Original Word: προγινώσκω Part of Speech: Verb Transliteration: proginóskó Phonetic Spelling: (prog-in-oce'-ko) Definition: to know beforehand Usage: I know beforehand, foreknow. HELPS Word-studies 4267 proginṓskō (from 4253 /pró, "before" and 1097 /ginṓskō, "to know") – properly, foreknow; used in the NT of "God pre-knowing all choices – and doing so without pre-determining (requiring) them" (G. Archer). [See also Jer 18:8-10 on the perfect harmony of divine sovereignty and human freedom.] 5 Occurrences προέγνω — 2 Occ. προεγνωσμένου — 1 Occ. προγινώσκοντές — 2 Occ.

​

Hmm, you seem to be looking at a different word, προγινώσκω, than @The Rogue Tomato whose word is τεταγμένοι.

The Rogue Tomato's definition for τεταγμένοι (Strong's 5021 (opens to biblehub.com/strongs/greek/5021.htm)) is directly on target; therefore, your "Very inaccurate" is inaccurate.

civic, since you brought up προγινώσκω (Strong's 4267) which denotes foreknow or knowing beforehand, let's take a moment to discuss God's awesome foreknowledge.

Is The Statement "God is outside of time" Scripturally Accurate?​

People of the free-will persuasion make the claim that "God is outside of time", and the claim can also manifest as "God's plans have already happened in eternity".

Respecting the claim, there are a couple of points to consider:

• is the claim substantiated in scripture?
• what is the claim's impact? (this point is non-existent without affirmation of the first point)

Proof texts presented to me by free-willians from the KJV for the claim include, in the order that they were presented:

• Isaiah 57:15
• Isaiah 46:10
• Isaiah 14:24

Regarding Isaiah 57:15​

I looked up Isaiah 57:15 because a free-willian made the claim "God is outside of time (Isaiah 57:15)", so I went to the NASB which reads:

For thus says the high and exalted One Who lives forever, whose name is Holy, "I dwell [on] a high and holy place, And [also] with the contrite and lowly of spirit In order to revive the spirit of the lowly And to revive the heart of the contrite"
​

When I pointed out that the free-willian added the claim for Isaiah 57:15, then the free-willian indicated that the KJV needed to be examined.

Isaiah 57:15 in the KJV reads:

For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
​

And the free-willian narrowed the focus in on "that inhabiteth eternity".
So, now, it's time to properly read the verse based on the Hebrew.

The KJV's "inhabiteth" means "lives", and "lives" is used in the NASB, so these two words match between the KJV and NASB.

The next word is "eternity" in the KJV which means "forever" as used in the NASB, so these words match between the KJV and NASB.

The Hebrew source word for "inhabiteth" is Strong's 7931 which means "abides", "lives", "dwells".

The Hebrew source word for "eternity" is Strong's 5703 which means "eternity", "forever", "perpetuity".

Adonai YHWH lives forever!

Regarding Isaiah 46:10 and Isaiah 14:24​

Another free-willian asserted that these specific scriptures as "infer" for the claim "God's plans have already happened in eternity":

• Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure (Isaiah 46:10)
• The LORD of hosts has sworn: "Surely, as I have planned, so will it be, and as I have purposed, so will it stand (Isaiah 14:24)

When one "infers" subject matter into a text, then one puts something into the text; in other words, "inferring" is speaking to, yet reading is being spoken to, so to speak.

The free-willian admitted that neither Isaiah 14:24 nor Isaiah 46:10 express the claim, and I agreed that the claim is absent from these verses.

I pointed out that inference of the claim into Isaiah 46:10 results in adding to scripture.

In Isaiah 46:10, it is written "the things that are not yet done", so the claim contradicts the phrase, that is, the claim requires the phrase "the things that are not yet done" in Isaiah 46:10 to be subtracted from scripture.

See the time reference of "planned" being past tense juxtaposed with "will it be" being future tense in Isaiah 14:24, "Surely, as I have planned, so will it be; and as I have purposed, so will it stand", so the Word of God expresses "the things that are not yet done" in Isaiah 14:24 with "planned" (anterior) and "will it be" (posterior); therefore, the claim requires the subtraction of the words "planned" and "will it be" in Isaiah 14:24.

Since both Isaiah passages must remain true for the Word of God to remain true, the claim requires the concept of "the things that are not yet done" of Isaiah 46:10 to be subtracted from Isaiah 14:24; moreover, the claim requires the concept of "as I have planned, so will it be" of Isaiah 14:24 to be subtracted from Isaiah 46:10.

I pointed out that the claim requires subtracting from the Isaiah passages.

Listen to scripture to take this a step further with the declaration of Christ's disciples "Now we know that You know all things" (John 16:30).

So, God knows all things (John 16:30).

It is written of God "no purpose of Yours can be thwarted" (Job 42:2).

Nothing, absolutely nothing, can be avoided by man which God knows will happen (Deuteronomy 32:39, 1 Samuel 2:6, Psalm 68:20, Isaiah 43:13).

God knows the names of persons to be saved before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8 and Revelation 17:8), and there is no one capable of thwarting God's Hand.

God knowing things means exactly that, which is, God knows things. The claim presupposes the mechanism by which God knows the future; however, just as the free-willian admitted, scripture does not indicate such a mechanism.

I pointed out that the Word of God in Isaiah 14:24 does not support the claim; additionally, the Word of God in Isaiah 46:10 does not support the claim.

In conclusion,

• free-willian's inference for the claim results in adding to scripture.
• the claim being inferred requires subtracting from scripture.
• neither the content nor the context of the Word of God support the claim.

Chronological sequence is dictated at the time God said "the things that are not yet done" (Isaiah 46:10), so the Word of God expresses God's viewpoint of being inside time as revealed in Scripture; moreover, since God said "the things that are not yet done" (Isaiah 46:10), then this means there can be no other scripture to contradict Isaiah 46:10 throughout the entirety of scripture, so "the things that are not yet done" (Isaiah 46:10) rules out any Scripture saying "God is outside of time".

Returning to the two points at the beginning of this sidebar, the second point "what is the claim's impact" fails to be relevant because the claim "God is outside of time" is not affirmed in scripture.

 

[Kermos]

A professor of biblical languages disputes you

Doctor Brian H. Wagner of Free-willian Philosophy loses against the Word of God, and this post proves it, again.

The Word of God declares that a man is incapable of choosing right:

And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right? (Luke 12:57[/URL])
​

Your free-will exists not. I encourage you to read John chapter 3, right now. The Lord willing, you will return to this post to read it in full and reply.

And ? Are you arguing freewill was lost as one passed from the old covenant to the new?

I do not see any force in this claim

There is no such thing as free-will because no Word of God states that free-will exists, and this post proves it, again.

And?

Instruction has nothing to do with the will to freely give

A will to generously give (freely give, plentifully give - all these express precisely the same concept) does not indicate a free-will, but a will to generously give does indicate a will.

all in accord with free will

Dictionary
Data from Oxford Languages
free will

NOUN

the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
SIMILAR:
volition
independence
self-determination
self-sufficiency
autonomy
spontaneity
freedom
liberty
voluntarily
willingly

You quoted an English dictionary instead of a Hebrew dictionary for the definition of the Hebrew word נְדָבָ֖ה Strong's 5071 - נְדָבָ֖ה - nedabah - נדבה - ndbh - impelled generous offering (links to biblehub.com/hebrew/5071.htm); therefore, your conclusion is false.

Largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ the Righteous.

And the Righteous One pronounces "And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right?" (Luke 12:57[/URL])

What is driven

Imagine a shiny red sports car free and zipping through mountain roads. The car's engine roaring through the straight aways, and the car coasting into the curves with the racer's foot anticipatorially over the accelerator pedal, ready for the scream of the tires as the car leaves the curve entering the next straightaway.

When the car is detached from a tow truck, then the self-propelled car is not forced by the tow truck; moreover, the car moves because of the car's engine, so the car is forced by the car's own engine itself.

On the other hand...

When the car is attached to a tow truck, then the car is forced by the tow truck; moreover, the car moves because of the tow truck's engine, so the car is not forced by the car's own engine.

We do not say "the engine is free to drive the roads", but we do say "the car is free to drive the roads". After all, the engine by itself goes nowhere because it requires the drivetrain, the wheels, the chassis, and so on; therefore, we refer to the whole system as a car, and "car" is the proper level of abstraction (or classification) to indicate as "free to drive the roads". A tow truck is also "free to drive the roads", so "car" and "tow truck" are at the same abstraction level in reference to "free to drive the roads".

On the other hand, "engine" is at the wrong abstraction level in reference to "free to drive the roads" when "car" and "tow truck" are being compared and contrasted with respect to "free to drive the roads". The "car" and the "tow truck" are vehicles, and each vehicle has it's own "engine".

There is no such thing as a free-engine driving around the roads because a free-engine lacks wheels, a passenger compartment, chassis, etc. A free engine does not have a car, so a free-engine is an absurd and nonsense concept.

We must compare like-for-like to arrive at accurate conclusions, so the "car" and the "tow truck" are similarly classed as vehicles for truthful comparison purposes, yet the "tow truck" is dissimilar to the "car engine" which means these fail like-for-like comparison purposes; in other words, the tow truck being compared to the car's engine is a comparison at two different levels of abstraction which renders an illogical comparison resulting in a false conclusion.

For purposes of this car and tow truck analogy, the engine is analogous to "will", and the car is analogous to a person, and the tow truck is analogous to God. As can be endemic to analogies, this analogy employs shadow that is overwhelmingly inferior to the substance, yet it accurately and sufficiently conveys the concept.

Essentially, the word "free" is the wrong terminology in the phrase "free-will" because a "will" is attached to a particular person; therefore, the appropriate terminology for a person's self-controlled "will" is "self-will" for humans (2 Peter 2:9-10).

Truly, Free-willian Philosophers are talking about "detached will" in reference to free-will, so freewill is a nonsense word.

Since the word free-will is a senseless, self-contradictory word, then the word freewill is also an unbiblical word.

In Biblical terminology, a person is "driven" by self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10), or a person is "driven" by the Will of God (Philippians 2:14).

As I wrote previously, largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ. This narrows the focus, so the distinction between salvation (Philippians 2:14) and damnation (2 Peter 2:9-10) is highly relevant.

their heart drives them - to me that speaks of free will

Apparently it does to Professor Wagner as well

You really need to take Scripture with Scripture, TomL.

God controls the heart of a person for it is written:

• "The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will" (Proverbs 21:1).
• "they kept the Feast of Unleavened Bread seven days with joy, for the LORD had made them joyful and had turned the heart of the king of Assyria to them, so that he aided them in the work of the house of God, the God of Israel" (Ezra 6:22).
• "For His dominion is an everlasting dominion, and His kingdom endures from generation to generation. All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, but He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of earth; and no one can ward off His hand or say to Him, ‘What have You done" (Daniel 4:34-35).

Essentially, the above Scriptures indicate that in each of the below Scriptures that you quoted:

• the moves in the following verse is controlled by God:
  
  
  Exod 25:2 ESV “… From every man whose heart moves him you shall receive the contribution for me.
  ​
• the moved in the following verse is controlled by God:
  
  
  Exod 35:21 ESV And they came, everyone whose heart stirred him, and everyone whose spirit moved him….
  ​
• the moved in the following verse is controlled by God as well as freewill offering being a maltranslation (see the post to which you replied):
  
  
  Exod 35:29 ESV All the men and women, the people of Israel, whose heart moved them to bring anything for the work that the LORD had commanded by Moses to be done brought it as a freewill offering to the LORD.
  ​
• the themselves willingly in the following verse is controlled by God:
  
  
  Judg 5:2 ESV …that the leaders took the lead in Israel, that the people offered themselves willingly, bless the LORD!
  ​
• the freely offers in the following verse is controlled by God:
  
  
  Ezr 7:13 ESV – 13 I make a decree that anyone of the people of Israel or their priests or Levites in my kingdom, who freely offers to go to Jerusalem, may go with you.
  ​

When you wrote "their heart drives them - to me that speaks of free will Apparently it does to Professor Wagner as well", then your Professor Wagner subtracted the glory of God and God's Might from the Holy Scripture meanwhile exalting man by adding free-will where free-will exists not.

Again synonymous to free will

Not a single one of those are synonymous with free-will. For example, "give liberally" means "present plentifully", not "freewill", but truly "give a lot of stuff", so your statement is false.

To @Joe, since you agree/"Like" TomL's post, this message is to you, too, just as if you are him.

Greetings @The Rogue Tomato, I appreciate you taking the time to read the posts that you Like.

This post 1 of "God's Sovereignty and Man's Dependence Upon God Series Of Posts" continues at post 2.​

 

[Kermos]

Post 2 of "God's Sovereignty and Man's Dependence Upon God Series Of Posts".

Still sounds like free will

The Aramaic word נְדַב (Strong's 5069 - nedab - נדב - ndb - to volunteer, offer freely) sounds like an action caused by God when a person does something pleasing to God for it is written "the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him" (Romans 8:6-9).

We believers have "actions" that please God, and these "actions" are called Fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23).

What is the significance of being 400 years after the exodus

I'm glad you asked. Did you know the English word "suffer" meant "permit" when the KJV was published in 1612, about 400 years ago?

Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
(Matthew 19:14)
​

Those are nearly antonyms.

With the Hebrew word Strong's 5070 - נָדָ֨ב - Nadab - נדב - ndb - an Israelite name, generous, noble (links to biblehub.com/hebrew/5070.htm) and it's derivatives, we do not encounter the morphological distortion over the centuries, even millennia.

Why should I reject A professor of biblical languages, multiple translation and a dictionary listing 1of all that is synonymous with free will to believe your claim

In response to your questions' components:

1. Why should I reject A professor of biblical languages:
   
   
   Answer: Brian H. Wagner Ph.D. is not the Word of God, and the post to which you replied as well as the continuation of this post and demonstrates the failure Brian's understanding of biblical languages which in turn leads to the deception of Doctor Wagner's Free-willian Philosophy.
   ​
2. Why should I reject multiple translation
   
   
   Answer: Reject only the flawed translation portion. Let us examine the remaining Scripture that you quoted, but first, some foundation.
   
   The heart of man plans his way, but YHWH establishes his steps (Proverbs 16:9).
   
   For behold, he who forms the mountains and creates the wind, and declares to man what is his thought, who makes the morning darkness, and treads on the heights of the earth - YHWH, the God of hosts, is his name (Amos 4:13)!
   
   You repeatedly quoted:
   
   Ezra 7:13
   I have issued a decree that any of the people of Israel and their priests and the Levites in my kingdom who are willing to go to Jerusalem, may go with you.
   
   But more accurately, Ezra 7:13 reads "I have issued a decree that any of the people of Israel and their priests and the Levites in my kingdom who generously go to Jerusalem, may go with you.".
   
   And, you consecutively in repetition quoted:
   
   Ezra 7:15
   and to bring the silver and gold, which the king and his advisers have voluntarily given to the God of Israel, whose dwelling is in Jerusalem,
   
   But more accurately, Ezra 7:15 reads "and to bring the silver and gold, which the king and his advisers have generously given to the God of Israel, whose dwelling is in Jerusalem,".
   
   And, you consecutively quoted:
   
   Ezra 7:16
   with all the silver and gold which you find in the entire province of Babylon, along with the voluntary offering of the people and of the priests, who offered willingly for the house of their God which is in Jerusalem;
   
   But more accurately, Ezra 7:16 reads "with all the silver and gold which you find in the entire province of Babylon, along with the impelled generous offering of the people and of the priests, who offered generously for the house of their God which is in Jerusalem;".
   
   That covers your quotations.
   
   All glory to Jesus the Lord for He impells man unto righteous acts (Proverbs 16:9)!
   
   PRAISE GOD! This is so very awesome! The Lord God Almighty declares to man what is his thought (Amos 4:13)!
   ​
3. Why should I reject a dictionary listing 1of all that is synonymous with free will
   
   
   Answer: Because you use faulty linguistics just like your leader, Brian H. Wagner, Ph.D.
   ​
4. Why should I believe your claim
   
   
   Answer: God sent me here to proclaim the Truth (John 14:6) to you.
   ​

This post 2 of "God's Sovereignty and Man's Dependence Upon God Series Of Posts" continues at post 3.