An Article on free will

[Johann]

So what you get from the passage with the parable is that irresistible grace is wrong? How did you arrive at that conclusion?

The parable of talents (Matthew 25:14-30) does not directly contradict the doctrine of irresistible grace, which states that God's grace is effective in bringing about faith and salvation in a person, regardless of their free will. The parable of talents speaks to the responsibility of those who have been given gifts by God, not to the means by which they received those gifts. The parable does not negate the importance of God's grace, but rather emphasizes the responsibility of those who have been given gifts to use them wisely.

Irresistible grace does not imply that God forces people to repent or believe against their will. Instead, it means that the Holy Spirit can overcome the resistance of the human heart and make the unwilling willing.

The Holy Spirit's influence is irresistible, but it does not mean that every influence of the Holy Spirit cannot be resisted. It means that the Holy Spirit, whenever he chooses, can overcome all resistance and make his influence irresistible

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Therefore, based on the parable of talents and the doctrine of irresistible grace, it cannot be concluded that irresistible grace is wrong. The two concepts are not incompatible, and the parable of talents does not directly contradict the doctrine of irresistible grace.

Diametrically opposed to what Calvin teaches.
J.

 

[Johann]

The Word of God declares that a man is incapable of choosing right:

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And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right? (Luke 12:57[/URL])​

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Your free-will exists not. I encourage you to read John chapter 3, right now. The Lord willing, you will return to this post to read it in full and reply.

Free-will is a nonsense word, and an unscriptural word, too, as shown in post #266.

As @The Rogue Tomato put it to you so eloquently in post #283,

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I'm saying the original language MSS we have are superior to any English translation.​

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Your statement of "Strongs H5069 does not have a meaning of generous" is false, and your statement is based on a maltranslation because the root word for word מתנדב (Strong's 5069 - מתנדב - mtndb - to volunteer, offer freely) is the root Hebrew word of נדב (Strong's 5070 - נדב - ndb - an Israelite name, generous, noble); therefore, you illegally convert the verb "freely offers" into "free-will offers".

The accurate translation is

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I make a decree that anyone of the people of Israel or their priests or Levites in my kingdom, who generously offers to go to Jerusalem, may go with you​

(Ezra 7:13)​

​

Absolutely no free-will is recorded in Ezra 7:13. See the context, Israelites were permitted to generously leave their businesses/property/stuff behind in Babylon in order to go to rebuild Jerusalem.

The question of whether humans have free will is a topic of debate within the Christian theological context. The Bible does not explicitly state that humans have free will in the sense of absolute freedom, but it does suggest that humans have the ability to make choices that genuinely affect their destiny

The concept of free will is not incompatible with divine foreknowledge, as God's foreknowledge does not negate human responsibility or free will. Instead, God's foreknowledge is based on his foreseeing the choices that humans will make, which are ultimately their own

Some theologians argue that free will is a necessary part of what it means to be divine, as God acts preveniently to give freedom and agency to all creatures

. Others, such as the Roman Catholic Church, universally embrace the idea of free will, but generally do not view free will as existing apart from or in contradiction to grace

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In summary, the Bible suggests that humans have the ability to make choices that genuinely affect their destiny, and this ability is not incompatible with divine foreknowledge. The concept of free will is a topic of debate within the Christian theological context, and there are various perspectives on the nature and extent of free will

J.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

. Others, such as the Roman Catholic Church, universally embrace the idea of free will, but generally do not view free will as existing apart from or in contradiction to grace

Erasmus (who was representative of the Roman Catholic Church at the time) wrote a diatribe on free will that seems to me to state free will exists apart from grace. Maybe I'm misinterpreting what he wrote, but that's how I see it.

 

[Johann]

Erasmus (who was representative of the Roman Catholic Church at the time) wrote a diatribe on free will that seems to me to state free will exists apart from grace. Maybe I'm misinterpreting what he wrote, but that's how I see it.

The concept of free will in relation to grace is a topic of theological debate.

Some theologians argue that free will is a necessary part of what it means to be divine, as God acts preveniently to give freedom and agency to all creatures. This perspective emphasizes that the gift of free will comes from God's eternal essence and is therefore necessary. It is based on the belief that God remains free in choosing how to love, but the fact that God loves and therefore gives freedom/agency to others is a necessary part of what it means to be divine


On the other hand, the Bible teaches that salvation is completely by grace, not works. It also teaches very clearly that humans wouldn't will to be saved on their own.

However, it's our own fault. This view emphasizes that salvation by grace does not negate the reality of human free will, but rather that the Holy Spirit empowers individuals to choose to believe in Christ. It is the Holy Spirit who works in and through a person’s will to regenerate that person and give him/her a new nature "created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness"

In summary, the relationship between free will and grace is a complex and nuanced theological issue, and there are different perspectives within Christianity. Some emphasize the necessity of free will as a divine gift, while others emphasize the role of grace in enabling individuals to choose and believe in Christ.

J.

 

[Johann]

Many people preach that God has a free-will.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not His Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world through Him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:16 is a well-known and often-quoted verse from the Bible, and its meaning is central to the Christian faith. The verse, as per the New International Version (NIV), states: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life"

The verse conveys the profound love of God for the world, demonstrated by the sacrificial gift of his Son, Jesus Christ. It emphasizes that through belief in Jesus, individuals can be saved from perishing and can instead have eternal life. This verse encapsulates the core message of the Christian gospel, highlighting the offer of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ

The phrase "For God so loved the world" underscores the depth and magnitude of God's love for all of humanity. It signifies the selfless and unconditional nature of God's love, which is the foundation of the Christian faith. The verse also emphasizes the essential role of belief in Jesus Christ for obtaining eternal life, portraying it as the key to salvation

In summary, John 3:16 communicates the immense love of God for the world, the gift of salvation through his Son, and the central importance of faith in Jesus for obtaining eternal life. It is a foundational verse in the Christian faith, encapsulating the core message of God's love and the offer of salvation through belief in Jesus Christ.


Here are some Bible verses about free will:

1 Corinthians 10:13 - "No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it."

Proverbs 16:9 - "In their hearts humans plan their course, but the Lord establishes their steps."

John 7:17 - "Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own."

Revelation 3:20 - "Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me."

Deuteronomy 30:19-20 - "This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob."

Genesis 2:16-17 - "And the Lord God commanded the man, 'You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.'"

James 1:13-16 - "When tempted, no one should say, 'God is tempting me.' For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers and sisters."

Galatians 5:16-17 - "So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want."

Romans 10:9-10 - "If you declare with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved."

Proverbs 16:1 - "To humans belong the plans of the heart, but from the Lord comes the proper answer of the tongue."

You need to stop your nonsense @Kermos

J.

 

[Kermos]

Newsflash That does not show they were there on that occasion

It was his disciples that were there

John 15:8 (KJV 1900) — 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
John 16:17 (KJV 1900) — 17 Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father?
John 16:29 (KJV 1900) — 29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.


his words were addressed to his disciples that were in the audience at that time while he was on the earth

There are many choices

The choice here is of his messengers


In the parable of the wedding feast

The messengers were chosen

his people were chosen

all were chosen to be invited in

but only those properly arrayed in the wedding garment gained entrance however

You have provided nothing that states men were unconditionally chosen for salvation

rather you have assumed it.

Personal rhetoric has been ignored

Your "Newsflash That does not show they were there on that occasion" is an outright lie because the Apostle Peter said "men who have accompanied us all the time" (Acts 1:21) which means that "Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias." were present at the supper recorded in John chapters 13-17.

Joseph and Matthias were in the room when Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

So, you repeat yourself calling the 11 Apostles all liars because all 11 of the remaining Apostles were with the Apostle Peter when Peter said:

Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.' So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias.
(Acts 1:21-23)
​

In the upper room occupied by Jesus' disciples who put forward Matthias and Joseph were Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James (Acts 1:13), and these disciples recognized Matthias and Joseph as disciples that were with them from the beginning, and not a single disciple contradicted Peter's prounouncement of "men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us".

Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more people beyond the 11 Apostles for a minimum total of 13 disciples who are specifically identified at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17; therefore, Lord Jesus Christ's "you" in John 15:16 and John 15:19 extends well beyond the Apostles, in Truth (John 14:6)!

Your "Newsflash That does not show they were there on that occasion" is Spiritually false.

You wrote "It was his disciples that were there", so you changed from "apostles" to "disciples" in your post, there. I am going to continue as if you wrote "apostles".

Since you convey that Jesus was exclusively talking to the apostles during the supper recorded in John chapters 13-17, then your heart illegitimately excludes everyone from being in the audience addressed by Loving Lord Jesus during the supper recorded in John chapters 13-17 except for the Apostles.

You continue the practice (Matthew 7:21-23) of adding the words "apostles" and "here" into the Word of God such that the following results, "you apostles here did not choose Me, but I chose you here apostles" and "I chose you here apostles out of the world", but that is clearly the addition of your heart and not the Word of God.

The Word of God establishes the "you" mentioned in John 15:16-19 includes all believers in all time in Truth (John 14:6) for the Word of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

You now proceeded to add the words "apostles" and "here" into the following Word of God which you quoted:

Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father (John 16:17, KJV 1900).

Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye apostles here shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye apostles here shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father (Word of TomL)
​

So, your heart conveys "I am not a participant in the promise to see Jesus in a little while".

Of the wedding feast parade recorded inside the Matthew 22:1-14 passage, we find Christ concluding with "many are called, but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14); therefore, God's glorious exclusive choosing of people unto salvation is evident!

You wrote "all were chosen to be invited in" regarding the wedding feast parade, but "invited" is an inaccurate translation for the actual "summoned", after all, Jesus is referring to an official summons from the King with rejection of the summons under penalty of death for nonappearance.

You lied when you wrote "You have provided nothing that states men were unconditionally chosen for salvation" because God caused me to previously write to you "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation), so Christ's sayings indicates the children of God (John 3:3-8) are "unconditionally chosen for salvation" by Christ Himself (John 15:16-19)!

 

[Johann]

You lied when you wrote "You have provided nothing that states men were unconditionally chosen for salvation" because God caused me to previously write to you "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation), so Christ's sayings indicates the children of God (John 3:3-8) are "unconditionally chosen for salvation" by Christ Himself (John 15:16-19)!

In the context of the Bible, John 15:16 is a verse in which Jesus is speaking to his disciples. He tells them, "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you" (John 15:16, NIV).

This verse emphasizes that it was Jesus who chose and appointed his disciples to bear lasting fruit and receive answers to their prayers in his name

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The verse is part of a larger passage in which Jesus uses the metaphor of the vine and the branches to explain the relationship between himself, his disciples, and God. He emphasizes the importance of abiding in him and his words abiding in his followers, as well as the necessity of bearing fruit as a sign of being his disciples

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The context of John 15:16 is significant in discussions about predestination, election, and God's sovereignty, as it raises questions about the nature of God's choice in salvation and the free will of individuals. The verse has been the subject of extensive theological debate and interpretation.
The Bible does not provide a single, definitive answer to the question of whether humans have free will or if their choices are predetermined by God. However, the Bible does present a view that humans have the ability to make choices and that these choices have consequences.

The Bible emphasizes that humans are created in God's image, which includes the ability to make decisions (Genesis 1:26). The Bible also encourages people to choose life and to obey God's commands (Deuteronomy 30:19-20). Additionally, the Bible suggests that humans are responsible for their choices and that their choices affect their destiny (Ecclesiastes 9:10, Proverbs 21:5).

At the same time, the Bible acknowledges that God is all-powerful and that he knows the future (Job 37:23, Isaiah 40:26). However, the Bible does not suggest that God controls every aspect of human life or that human choices are predetermined. Instead, the Bible presents a view that humans have free will, but that their choices are limited by their nature and that they are held accountable for their choices (Romans 3:23, Ephesians 4:24).

In summary, the Bible presents a view that humans have free will, but that their choices are limited by their nature and that they are held accountable for their choices. The Bible does not provide a definitive answer to the question of whether humans have free will or if their choices are predetermined by God.

J.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

The Bible emphasizes that humans are created in God's image, which includes the ability to make decisions (Genesis 1:26). The Bible also encourages people to choose life and to obey God's commands (Deuteronomy 30:19-20). Additionally, the Bible suggests that humans are responsible for their choices and that their choices affect their destiny (Ecclesiastes 9:10, Proverbs 21:5).

While I agree that we have the ability to make decisions, it is (IMO bad) speculation that being created in God's image gives us the ability to make the RIGHT decisions when it comes to salvation. We make decisions according to our inclination, and our inclination is only evil until and unless we are born from above (born again).

 

[TomL]

Your "Newsflash That does not show they were there on that occasion" is an outright lie because the Apostle Peter said "men who have accompanied us all the time" (Acts 1:21) which means that "Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias." were present at the supper recorded in John chapters 13-17.

I would say speaks of duration not every audience as not even the apostles were there on every ocassion

Joseph and Matthias were in the room when Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

Again choice of his disciples during Christs time on earth. Nothing there about unconditional election of all men before the foundation of the earth. You have to read that into the passage. Nothing mentioned about Joseph and Matthias being in the audience on that ocassion

But again nothing mentioned about unconditional election to salvation

You have to, assume that.

So, you repeat yourself calling the 11 Apostles all liars because all 11 of the remaining Apostles were with the Apostle Peter when Peter said:

Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.' So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias.​

(Acts 1:21-23)​

​

In the upper room occupied by Jesus' disciples who put forward Matthias and Joseph were Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James (Acts 1:13), and these disciples recognized Matthias and Joseph as disciples that were with them from the beginning, and not a single disciple contradicted Peter's prounouncement of "men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us".

Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more people beyond the 11 Apostles for a minimum total of 13 disciples who are specifically identified at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17; therefore, Lord Jesus Christ's "you" in John 15:16 and John 15:19 extends well beyond the Apostles, in Truth (John 14:6)!

Your "Newsflash That does not show they were there on that occasion" is Spiritually false.

You wrote "It was his disciples that were there", so you changed from "apostles" to "disciples" in your post, there. I am going to continue as if you wrote "apostles".

Since you convey that Jesus was exclusively talking to the apostles during the supper recorded in John chapters 13-17, then your heart illegitimately excludes everyone from being in the audience addressed by Loving Lord Jesus during the supper recorded in John chapters 13-17 except for the Apostles.

You continue the practice (Matthew 7:21-23) of adding the words "apostles" and "here" into the Word of God such that the following results, "you apostles here did not choose Me, but I chose you here apostles" and "I chose you here apostles out of the world", but that is clearly the addition of your heart and not the Word of God.

The Word of God establishes the "you" mentioned in John 15:16-19 includes all believers in all time in Truth (John 14:6) for the Word of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

You now proceeded to add the words "apostles" and "here" into the following Word of God which you quoted:

​

Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father (John 16:17, KJV 1900).​

​

Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye apostles here shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye apostles here shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father (Word of TomL)​

​

So, your heart conveys "I am not a participant in the promise to see Jesus in a little while".

Of the wedding feast parade recorded inside the Matthew 22:1-14 passage, we find Christ concluding with "many are called, but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14); therefore, God's glorious exclusive choosing of people unto salvation is evident!

You wrote "all were chosen to be invited in" regarding the wedding feast parade, but "invited" is an inaccurate translation for the actual "summoned", after all, Jesus is referring to an official summons from the King with rejection of the summons under penalty of death for nonappearance.

You lied when you wrote "You have provided nothing that states men were unconditionally chosen for salvation" because God caused me to previously write to you "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation), so Christ's sayings indicates the children of God (John 3:3-8) are "unconditionally chosen for salvation" by Christ Himself (John 15:16-19)!

Still nothing there about unconditional election to salvation

What we have is Christ's selection of his disciples. The grounds upon which they were selected were not stated

and nothing states they were regenerated and effectually caused to be his disciples. That would be another assumption

You lack a single text showing any were selected for unconditional election to salvation

 

[TomL]

While I agree that we have the ability to make decisions, it is (IMO bad) speculation that being created in God's image gives us the ability to make the RIGHT decisions when it comes to salvation. We make decisions according to our inclination, and our inclination is only evil until and unless we are born from above (born again).

Lets see

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?



Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief

Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed

Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.



Jesus clearly states he hides truth for some as otherwise they would repent and be forgiven



Mark 4:10–12 (ESV) — 10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that “ ‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’ ”




unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

The adversary steals the word away so men will not believe

Luke 8:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.



What need is there to steal away a word which cannot be believed?


John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.

John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

How much exegesis is needed to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

men will be able to believe based on the apostle's testimony

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief

2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As is the preaching of it.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

Joshua 24:15–17 (ESV) — 15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” 16 Then the people answered, “Far be it from us that we should forsake the LORD to serve other gods, 17 for it is the LORD our God who brought us and our fathers up from the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery, and who did those great signs in our sight and preserved us in all the way that we went, and among all the peoples through whom we passed.

Deuteronomy 30:11–20 (ESV) — 11 “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it. 15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil. 16 If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it. 17 But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them, 18 I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess. 19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live, 20 loving the LORD your God, obeying his voice and holding fast to him, for he is your life and length of days, that you may dwell in the land that the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.”

I'd say scripture testifies against you

 

[Johann]

While I agree that we have the ability to make decisions, it is (IMO bad) speculation that being created in God's image gives us the ability to make the RIGHT decisions when it comes to salvation. We make decisions according to our inclination, and our inclination is only evil until and unless we are born from above (born again).

Again-

The Bible presents several examples of free will, which is the ability to make choices and have responsibility for those choices. Here are a few examples from Scripture:
Creation of humans in God's image: God created humans in his image, which includes the ability to make choices (Genesis 1:26).

Choice between life and death: God offers life and blessings to those who choose to obey him, and death and curses to those who disobey (Deuteronomy 30:19-20).

Choice to serve God or other gods: Joshua challenges the Israelites to choose to serve the Lord or other gods (Joshua 24:14-15).

Choice to obey or disobey: Deuteronomy 28:1-2 and 15 describe the consequences of obedience and disobedience to God's commands.

Choice to love or not love God: 1 Corinthians 10:23 implies that while we have the right to do anything, not everything is beneficial for us or for those around us.

These examples and others in the Bible demonstrate that humans have the ability to make choices and that their choices have consequences. The Bible also emphasizes that humans are responsible for their choices and that they will be held accountable for them (Romans 3:23, Ephesians 4:24)

Agree?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Again-

The Bible presents several examples of free will, which is the ability to make choices and have responsibility for those choices. Here are a few examples from Scripture:
Creation of humans in God's image: God created humans in his image, which includes the ability to make choices (Genesis 1:26).

Choice between life and death: God offers life and blessings to those who choose to obey him, and death and curses to those who disobey (Deuteronomy 30:19-20).

Choice to serve God or other gods: Joshua challenges the Israelites to choose to serve the Lord or other gods (Joshua 24:14-15).

Choice to obey or disobey: Deuteronomy 28:1-2 and 15 describe the consequences of obedience and disobedience to God's commands.

Choice to love or not love God: 1 Corinthians 10:23 implies that while we have the right to do anything, not everything is beneficial for us or for those around us.

These examples and others in the Bible demonstrate that humans have the ability to make choices and that their choices have consequences. The Bible also emphasizes that humans are responsible for their choices and that they will be held accountable for them (Romans 3:23, Ephesians 4:24)

Agree?

No. Telling people to choose something does not prove they have the ability to do so. In fact, sometimes telling people to choose rightly is meant to teach the people the lesson that they are unable to do so without God's intervention. Note that after God told people to choose in Deuteronomy, he said in advance that they would choose wrong, and be cursed, but that at some future time he would write the law upon their hearts so that they could love God and live.

 

[Johann]

No. Telling people to choose something does not prove they have the ability to do so. In fact, sometimes telling people to choose rightly is meant to teach the people the lesson that they are unable to do so without God's intervention. Note that after God told people to choose in Deuteronomy, he said in advance that they would choose wrong, and be cursed, but that at some future time he would write the law upon their hearts so that they could love God and live.

Still a choice.
J.

 

[TomL]

No. Telling people to choose something does not prove they have the ability to do so. In fact, sometimes telling people to choose rightly is meant to teach the people the lesson that they are unable to do so without God's intervention. Note that after God told people to choose in Deuteronomy, he said in advance that they would choose wrong, and be cursed, but that at some future time he would write the law upon their hearts so that they could love God and live.

God is not disingenuous. If he states, he has set life or death in front of you and that you should chose life as he does not desire that you die then you can rest assure the ability to chose is there

For this commandment which I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it far away. 12 It is not in heaven, that you could say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us and get it for us, and proclaim it to us, so that we may follow it?’ 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you could say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us and get it for us and proclaim it to us, so that we may follow it?’ 14 On the contrary, the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may follow it.


Choose Life

15 “See, I have placed before you today life and happiness, and death and adversity, 16 in that I am commanding you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, so that you may live and become numerous, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to take possession of it. 17 But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but allow yourself to be led astray and you worship other gods and serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you will certainly perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and take possession of it. 19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have placed before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, 20 by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding close to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, so that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”


New American Standard Bible (La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 2020), Dt 30:11–20.

Ezekiel 18:30–32 (ESV) — 30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, declares the Lord GOD. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn, and live.”

 

[Kermos]

I would say speaks of duration not every audience

Then your heart's "I would say speaks of duration not every audience" nullifies Apostolic testimony because the Apostle Peter said "men who have accompanied us all the time" (Acts 1:21) which means that "Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias." were present at the supper recorded in John chapters 13-17.

Joseph and Matthias were in the room when Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

So, you repeat yourself calling the 11 Apostles all liars because all 11 of the remaining Apostles were with the Apostle Peter when Peter said:

​

Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.' So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias.​

(Acts 1:21-23)​

​

In the upper room occupied by Jesus' disciples who put forward Matthias and Joseph were Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James (Acts 1:13), and these disciples recognized Matthias and Joseph as disciples that were with them from the beginning, and not a single disciple contradicted Peter's prounouncement of "men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us".

Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more people beyond the 11 Apostles for a minimum total of 13 disciples who are specifically identified at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17; therefore, Lord Jesus Christ's "you" in John 15:16 and John 15:19 extends well beyond the Apostles, in Truth (John 14:6)!

It's quite sad what you are doing, TomL.

as not even the apostles were there on every ocassion

You are correct, and here is an instance of Jesus in private with four apostles.

At the time Jesus bestows these blessings "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation). to all believers in all time (see John 15:16-19), the Lord explained "If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you" (John 15:20) JUST ONE VERSE AFTER JOHN 15:19, so this word of Christ's is in context with the manner the world persecutes Christians as Christ's words recorded in Mark 13:1-37 including "What I say to you I say to all" (Mark 13:37) THUS CONTEXT EXISTS BETWEEN JOHN 15:16, JOHN 15:19, JOHN 15:20, AND MARK 13:37, so Lord Jesus does bind the "all" (Mark 13:37) to the "you" (John 15:16, John 15:19, includes salvation).

Again choice of his disciples during Christs time on earth. Nothing there about unconditional election of all men before the foundation of the earth. You have to read that into the passage.

You just wrote the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9) because the Word of God eliminates any level of choosing God by man when He awesomely declares "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation). The Apostles were included in these wonderful pronouncements just as much as every believer in all time!

TomL, you try to exclude the apostles from the Christ's words about who chooses who!

Nothing mentioned about Joseph and Matthias being in the audience on that ocassion

You lied again because the Apostle Peter said "men who have accompanied us all the time" (Acts 1:21) while he was with the Apostles, so, in effect, you add to the Apostle's words thusly "men who have NOT accompanied us all the time" (Acts 1:21), and that addition of yours is very misleading! See this post's opening for a comprehensive examination of Joseph and Matthias in the supper room recorded in John chapters 13-17.

But again nothing mentioned about unconditional election to salvation

You have to, assume that.



Still nothing there about unconditional election to salvation

What we have is Christ's selection of his disciples. The grounds upon which they were selected were not stated

and nothing states they were regenerated and effectually caused to be his disciples. That would be another assumption

You lack a single text showing any were selected for unconditional election to salvation

Your closing paragraph of "You lack a single text showing any were selected for unconditional election to salvation" shows that you turn a blind eye to the Word of God that has been proclaimed to you. For example, there is absolutely no degree that any person chooses the Righteous God because the Righteous Word of God declares that a man is incapable of choosing right which includes inability to choose the Righteous One unto salvation with His Powerful saying:

​

And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right? (Luke 12:57[/URL]).​

​

So, man is completely dependent upon the Righteous One for man be saved from the wrath of the Righteous God.

 

[TomL]

Then your heart's "I would say speaks of duration not every audience" nullifies Apostolic testimony because the Apostle Peter said "men who have accompanied us all the time" (Acts 1:21) which means that "Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias." were present at the supper recorded in John chapters 13-17.

Joseph and Matthias were in the room when Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

So, you repeat yourself calling the 11 Apostles all liars because all 11 of the remaining Apostles were with the Apostle Peter when Peter said:

​

Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.' So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias.​

(Acts 1:21-23)​

​

In the upper room occupied by Jesus' disciples who put forward Matthias and Joseph were Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James (Acts 1:13), and these disciples recognized Matthias and Joseph as disciples that were with them from the beginning, and not a single disciple contradicted Peter's prounouncement of "men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us".

Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more people beyond the 11 Apostles for a minimum total of 13 disciples who are specifically identified at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17; therefore, Lord Jesus Christ's "you" in John 15:16 and John 15:19 extends well beyond the Apostles, in Truth (John 14:6)!

It's quite sad what you are doing, TomL.



You are correct, and here is an instance of Jesus in private with four apostles.

At the time Jesus bestows these blessings "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation). to all believers in all time (see John 15:16-19), the Lord explained "If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you" (John 15:20) JUST ONE VERSE AFTER JOHN 15:19, so this word of Christ's is in context with the manner the world persecutes Christians as Christ's words recorded in Mark 13:1-37 including "What I say to you I say to all" (Mark 13:37) THUS CONTEXT EXISTS BETWEEN JOHN 15:16, JOHN 15:19, JOHN 15:20, AND MARK 13:37, so Lord Jesus does bind the "all" (Mark 13:37) to the "you" (John 15:16, John 15:19, includes salvation).



You just wrote the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9) because the Word of God eliminates any level of choosing God by man when He awesomely declares "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation). The Apostles were included in these wonderful pronouncements just as much as every believer in all time!

TomL, you try to exclude the apostles from the Christ's words about who chooses who!



You lied again because the Apostle Peter said "men who have accompanied us all the time" (Acts 1:21) while he was with the Apostles, so, in effect, you add to the Apostle's words thusly "men who have NOT accompanied us all the time" (Acts 1:21), and that addition of yours is very misleading! See this post's opening for a comprehensive examination of Joseph and Matthias in the supper room recorded in John chapters 13-17.



Your closing paragraph of "You lack a single text showing any were selected for unconditional election to salvation" shows that you turn a blind eye to the Word of God that has been proclaimed to you. For example, there is absolutely no degree that any person chooses the Righteous God because the Righteous Word of God declares that a man is incapable of choosing right which includes inability to choose the Righteous One unto salvation with His Powerful saying:

​

And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right? (Luke 12:57[/URL]).​

​

So, man is completely dependent upon the Righteous One for man be saved from the wrath of the Righteous God.

You are repeating yourself

You have not shown God unconditionally chooses men for Salvation

The context has to do with Christs choice of his messengers, His servants who are being prepared to take the invitation to the rest of the world

It is not speaking of unconditionally choosing men for salvation

and one if Christ's choices

John 6:70 (ESV) — 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”

Scripture does not teach your theology

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see? Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Jesus clearly states he hides truth from some as otherwise they would repent and be forgiven Mark 4:10–12 (ESV) — 10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that “ ‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’ ” unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. The adversary steals the word away so men will not believe Luke 8:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. What need is there to steal away a word which cannot be believed? John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith. John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did. How much exegesis is needed to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; men will be able to believe based on the apostle's testimony John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief 2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. As is the preaching of it. Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

 

[Presby02]

Still a choice.
J.

Still does not imply ability.

 

[TomL]

Still does not imply ability.

This clearly does

Deuteronomy 30:11–20 (KJV 1900) — 11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. 15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. 17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

 

[Johann]

Still does not imply ability.

Daily we make choices AND have the exousia to act on those choices-your point is moot.
J.

 

[TomL]

Bondage of the Will (Martin Luther)

https://www.chapellibrary.org/pdf/books/botw.pdf

Er it's not scripture