An Article on free will

[synergy]

lol

You have to understand james before you can even try to help someone else understand it

Again, I suggest people learn some humility. People proud attitude is all over this thread. its sad to see.

With all due respect, you failed the eye examination of James 2:24 again. Isn't it time to get a pair of glasses or a new prescription of glasses?

 

[synergy]

work is work.

we work to earn a reward.

we work to earn a wage

or we work out of gratitude for someone who gave us something that is priceless (because we trust them.

no work of any type can be added to grace to recieve a grace gift. That would make the grace gift not a grace gift at all. but a reward.

Grace and salvation was paid in full by Christ.

thats why it is called grace.

ad one work to that grace. and you nullify grace

How many wages do volunteers to charities earn?

 

[TedT]

does one being enslaved to sin cancel their free will?

ImCo,
unless one indulges is doublethink definitions of the words in play here, being enslaved to sin obviously cancels a free will.

 

[MTMattie]

ImCo,
unless one indulges is doublethink definitions of the words in play here, being enslaved to sin obviously cancels a free will.

How so? Or rephrase that to why?

My opinion only..........

Why would it? If you do not have freewill then.... are you not under.... the "rules" that would be said of preordained? (I know... awkward phrasing)

If preordained is mentioned with your name that connotes a Godly (Heavenly Father) connection. He would not direct anything
that would enslave one to sin...

JMO

 

[GodsGrace]

He lifts them up, or he prunes them

If the believer does not bear fruit...
He TAKES AWAY,,,,SEVERS,,,CUTS OFF the branch.

But we can be confident of this one thing, He who began a good work will complete it.

Agreed.
As long as we allow Him to.

Is God not capable of producing good fruit in his children?

WE are producing the good fruit EG.
The vine dresser removes the BELIEVER if there is no fruit,,,
NOT HIMSELF.

We produce the good fruit...
with the help of the Holy Spirit of course.

Then you are under works. not under grace

If obeying Jesus is being under works....
so be it.

I don't believe obeying Jesus is being under works....
but you're allowed your opinion.

Its not about just being of use to God. its being of use to others.

Wow. EG. You mean I'm doing good works for others' benefit?
OK. Now we're getting somewhere.
Yes, THIS is what Jesus taught.

We bear fruit by loving others. and God and serving them

Agreed.

No he did not

John 1, John 3, John 4, John 5 John 6 John 6. I can go on and on and on

You mean John did not teach what Jesus taught?

John 3:36 John said:
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

1 John 5:3
3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

John 14:23
Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word,


Why don't you post those verses you mentioned and we'll take a look...
I could guarantee that do not conflict with Jesus' commands.

Yes.

I obey God in faith and recieve his salvation.

once I reacive it, and have tasted of his love, I learn in faith to return that by loving and serving others.

Great.
So why not just agree that Jesus wants us to do good works?

Are you aware of the FAITH ONLY crowd?
They believe NO GOOD WORKS are necessary.

Your posts cater to THEM EG.
They undermine Christian values....
they believe that belief is all that is needed and Not Behavior.
This is NOT what Jesus taught.

Faith minus works..

Are you perfect? That is the requirment.
Your trying to tell people they must do the impossible. be perfect.

Please post where I made this rediculous statement.
Only God is perfect.

if works are required. no one will be saved

Those that obey God will be saved.
I don't like to call OBEDIENCE...WORKS.

You're catering to the Faith Only crowd again....

again, perfection is required.

Where is this stated in scripture?

Wrong

I proved it in the greek, You are arguing against the word now..

You didn't prove anything from the Greek because you don't speak Greek.
YOU began the argument of the word because it's the only way out.
John 15:2 TAKE AWAY means TO SEVER, TO CUT, TO REMOVE, TO TAKE AWAY....

Again,,,if you notice in John 15:6 the DEAD BRANCHES are burned.
They need to be CUT, SEVERED first before they could be burned.

John 15:6
6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

The above are the branches that were SEVERED, CUT AWAY, TAKEN AWAY in verse 2 because they were not producing fruit.

Again, the correct translation would be he LIFTS up every branch.

But hey, you want to keep trying to earn salvation, feel free.. I will wish you luck.

Yes EG....we must do our part.
Just as Jesus stated.

 

[GodsGrace]

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take away is misunderstood to mean cut off. or push out.

The greek is clear in its understanding.

again, a vinedressor lifts up branches on the ground so that they can bear fruit..

Thats what John said.. thats how we should interpret him

Strong's strikes again.

I see in the definition that the word TAKE AWAY is used....
and more than once....

Just as the word TAKE AWAY is used in John 15:2
referring to TAKING AWAY those branches that do not bear fruit.

But, alas, you prefer the definition of LIFT UP better.

All those versions I posted said TAKES AWAY or CUTS...
We should use the word that the translators used.

 

[synergy]

Strong's strikes again.

I see in the definition that the word TAKE AWAY is used....
and more than once....

Just as the word TAKE AWAY is used in John 15:2
referring to TAKING AWAY those branches that do not bear fruit.

But, alas, you prefer the definition of LIFT UP better.

All those versions I posted said TAKES AWAY or CUTS...
We should use the word that the translators used.

The Translators and you are correct, not @Eternally-Grateful.

I looked at the Modern Greek (Vambas) Bible and the word used is εκκόπτει which is definitely to cut.

(John 15:2) Παν κλήμα εν εμοί μη φέρον καρπόν, εκκόπτει αυτό, και παν το φέρον καρπόν, καθαρίζει αυτό, διά να φέρη πλειότερον καρπόν.

This is Thayer's definition of εκκόπτει:

1. to cut out, cut off
   1. of a tree
2. metaph. to cut off occasion

 

[TedT]

How so? Or rephrase that to why?

All FREE means is uncoerced:
The Elements of a True Free Will Choice:
1. Free will can't be coerced:
Nothing in our created nature could FORCE us to choose love or hate, good or evil, including all genetics...

Nothing in our experience could FORCE us to choose love or hate, good or evil, including all, cultural or familial experience...

Nothing in our understanding or knowledge of reality could FORCE us to choose good or evil, love or hate.

A coercion forces our decisions; it can't be resisted.
An influence sways our decisions but can be resisted.

If our enslavement to sin is saying that we are only influenced by sin then it is trite unto meaningless and Christ is telling us nothing. But if He was telling us that to sin causes us to become enslaved, addicted, to sin in such a way that we cannot resist it without the Holy Spirit, then this would be very important.

By definition we cannot have a free will if we are coerced by an addiction to sin.

By definition we cannot have a free will if our choices are dictated, chosen for us, by GOD.

Thus I do not believe sinners have a free will until they are reborn by the Spirit into Christ, freeing them from their addiction to evil. Pretending we have a free will while we are enslaved to sin is...just wrong.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You said you were "predestined before time began". For proof I asked you to produce your Conformity to Christ progress reports from 13.8 Billion BC to the day you were born. I see no progress report which proves you're just blowing smoke.

And I gave you scripture

I am blowing smoke?

well there you go folks, giving scripture is blowing smoke.

I can read James 2:24. It's you who fails the James 2:24 eye examination.

False. Here is proof:

lol.. Ok whatever..

Where does Rom 4 mention "faith alone"??? With all due respect, you must look into getting a pair of glasses that will allow you to see what's actually written in the Bible.

faith minus works equals faith alone

4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted

16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

I means show me faith plus works in this passage? I can't see it..

I have no problem with that. I issue here is: who's justification is James talking about? Is he talking about God's justification in James 2:24, yes or no?

Abraham was justified or made righteous in Gen 15. the works James spoke of is in Gen 22. Decades after Abraham was saved.

so you tell me.. Was Abraham lost all those years in-between, or did he receive the righteousness in Gen 15 as God said, and Paul confirmed.

False again. Here's the proof again:

I have yet to see any proof from you on anything you are trying to prove me wrong on..

You now switched the subject to “grace”. Of course we are saved by grace period. Where did I ever say anything to the contrary? Everything good comes from God by His Grace. Stop with the strawmen.

I did not switch the subject to grace, it has always been grace..

Where did you say it, By using james saying it is grace plus works.

Sorry bud, it is grace through faith MINUS works..

Thanks for mentioning verse 14. That’s another verse that destroys your "faith alone" ideology.

Actually it destroys your faith plus works grace cancelling ideology

vs 14 says they claimed to have faith

they had zero zip nada works.

and james, asked them, can this CLAIMED faith save them.

 

[MTMattie]

All FREE means is uncoerced:
The Elements of a True Free Will Choice:
1. Free will can't be coerced:
Nothing in our created nature could FORCE us to choose love or hate, good or evil, including all genetics...

Nothing in our experience could FORCE us to choose love or hate, good or evil, including all, cultural or familial experience...

Nothing in our understanding or knowledge of reality could FORCE us to choose good or evil, love or hate.

A coercion forces our decisions; it can't be resisted.
An influence sways our decisions but can be resisted.

If our enslavement to sin is saying that we are only influenced by sin then it is trite unto meaningless and Christ is telling us nothing. But if He was telling us that to sin causes us to become enslaved, addicted, to sin in such a way that we cannot resist it without the Holy Spirit, then this would be very important.

By definition we cannot have a free will if we are coerced by an addiction to sin.

By definition we cannot have a free will if our choices are dictated, chosen for us, by GOD.

Thus I do not believe sinners have a free will until they are reborn by the Spirit into Christ, freeing them from their addiction to evil. Pretending we have a free will while we are enslaved to sin is...just wrong.

Understood.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Are you seriously taking issue with the fact that Apostles called themselves Synergists (συνεργοι or συνεργουντος)??? Seriously?

You mentioned Mark 16: 20 - 20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.

1 cor 3: 9 - 20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.

We are fellow workers with God

that is not how we came to christ. or how we got saved.

So your barking up the wrong tree..

we are talking about salvation..

did we work to help ourself get saved (synegism) or did God save us, not of works, lest anyone should boast (monergist)

again, this just proves why we need to stop using isms.. Satan uses this against us to divide us.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

With all due respect, you failed the eye examination of James 2:24 again. Isn't it time to get a pair of glasses or a new prescription of glasses?

lol..Proud much?

dude you have not proven a thing, but you are to proud to admit when you may be wrong.

James was not talking to anyone who was saved, the people CLAIMED to have faith.. and Paul said because they had zero works, their faith was dead.

now if you think a person with lifeless faith can be saved.. well all i can say is wow. just wow..

but in effect thats what you are saying

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

How many wages do volunteers to charities earn?

if they are truly volunteers. they should earn none.

if they get paid. they are working,, Not doing things out of love

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

ImCo,
unless one indulges is doublethink definitions of the words in play here, being enslaved to sin obviously cancels a free will.

how?

Do I not have free will to not commit adultry, or to commit adultry, even if I am lost and not saved?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

If the believer does not bear fruit...
He TAKES AWAY,,,,SEVERS,,,CUTS OFF the branch.

No.

I am done, if you think a believer has to earn salvation,, then your preaching works not grace.

Agreed.
As long as we allow Him to.

lol.. Sorry I did not see the word allow in the passage.

God will finish his work.. He may have a hard time as we are resistant, and need to chasten us along the way. but when it comes to judgment day, the work will be complete.

Sorry, I trust God not self.

WE are producing the good fruit EG.
The vine dresser removes the BELIEVER if there is no fruit,,,
NOT HIMSELF.

No. the vine is producing the good fruit. We are just the means by which the fruit is made.

And no, he does not remove the believer..

Thats works, that is self righteous thinking..

Give it to God sister. Stop trying to earn it for yourself

We produce the good fruit...
with the help of the Holy Spirit of course.

yes. Some will produce alot of fruit. some will produce very little. some will be so little when they get rewarded, all their fruit will be birned as wood hay and straw. but he himself will still be saved.

If obeying Jesus is being under works....
so be it.

If you obeying to keep yourself saved, your trying to merit salvation.

I don't believe obeying Jesus is being under works....
but you're allowed your opinion.

Yet you do. by saying it is required or we will lose salvation.

That is a works based gospel. not grace based.

Wow. EG. You mean I'm doing good works for others' benefit?
OK. Now we're getting somewhere.
Yes, THIS is what Jesus taught.

But your also doing it for your benefit. so you do not lose salvation

Agreed.


You mean John did not teach what Jesus taught?

John 3:36 John said:
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

1 John 5:3
3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

John 14:23
Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word,

Yes John did teach

He who believes is not condemned (john 3)
He who asks, will be given living water flowing to eternal life (john 4)
He who sees and believes will not come into judgment, but will live forever (john 5)
He who sees and believes will never hunger, never thirst. they will live forever. they will never die. God will raise them on the last day, and they will not be lost (john 6)


these are prescriptive verses.

You like showing me descriptive verses (they describe what a true believer does)

Why don't you post those verses you mentioned and we'll take a look...
I could guarantee that do not conflict with Jesus' commands.

Then you are done.. Because you are unteachable.. Nothing i say will change your mind.. and that's a bad place to be.. because if your wrong.. Well eternity is a long time to think about why you were wrong.. and did not open up

Great.
So why not just agree that Jesus wants us to do good works?

I never disagreed.

why do you keep falsly accusing me of saying I am against works?

And you people wonder why youi get in so many fights.. You never listen to anythign the other says, You assume you know. and go off that assumption.

Are you aware of the FAITH ONLY crowd?
They believe NO GOOD WORKS are necessary.

Good works are not necessary, that would put us inder law

God works however. are a byproduct of salvation. so everyone WILL do them

Your posts cater to THEM EG.
They undermine Christian values....
they believe that belief is all that is needed and Not Behavior.
This is NOT what Jesus taught.

Your posts cater to people who want to earn salvation.

You teach self righteousness. Not good works.

Please post where I made this rediculous statement.
Only God is perfect.

then you need to be saved. Because no matter how good you are. you fail to meet Gods standard.

Those that obey God will be saved.
I don't like to call OBEDIENCE...WORKS.

Actually those who are saved will obey God.

you keep putting the order wrong

You're catering to the Faith Only crowd again....

I am catering to the merit based salvation crowd calling them out.

Where is this stated in scripture?

You didn't prove anything from the Greek because you don't speak Greek.
YOU began the argument of the word because it's the only way out.
John 15:2 TAKE AWAY means TO SEVER, TO CUT, TO REMOVE, TO TAKE AWAY....

Again,,,if you notice in John 15:6 the DEAD BRANCHES are burned.
They need to be CUT, SEVERED first before they could be burned.

John 15:6
6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

The above are the branches that were SEVERED, CUT AWAY, TAKEN AWAY in verse 2 because they were not producing fruit.



Yes EG....we must do our part.
Just as Jesus stated.

wasting our time

Keep trying to earn salvation, thats on you. You have fallen for the roman churches merit based salvation system.

If you do not repent, you will fall with them

 

[GodsGrace]

The Translators and you are correct, not @Eternally-Grateful.

I looked at the Modern Greek (Vambas) Bible and the word used is εκκόπτει which is definitely to cut.

(John 15:2) Παν κλήμα εν εμοί μη φέρον καρπόν, εκκόπτει αυτό, και παν το φέρον καρπόν, καθαρίζει αυτό, διά να φέρη πλειότερον καρπόν.

This is Thayer's definition of εκκόπτει:

1. to cut out, cut off
   1. of a tree
2. metaph. to cut off occasion

Very rarely is Strong's or Thayer's necessay.
It is apparent that Strong's is used when a word is discussed and the meaning of the word as the translators used is not liked by the member.

I don't even understand why some words are discussed...DRAW is another one....John 6:44 is explained by John 12:32.
Either draw means to invite...or Jesus was a universalist.

Also, I read the bible in Italian, which is much closer to the Greek, even culturally, and the word used there is SEVER.
(John 15:2).

It would be interesting to know what bible the other member uses.
Apparently one that believes in OSAS...so it could not possibly be CUT OFF----

 

[Selah]

I'm only saying this:
IF you use the word ELECT ... to a calvinist it means that God chose who will be saved based on nothing at all...they will think that You are calvinist because it's THEIR language.

Just wanted to make some comments on using the word ELECT...
(not that it's wrong, but I think I explained it).

Since God’s Word existed long before Calvinism, I’ll just stick with the language of the Bible, the Truth. I’m not responsible for what a Calvinist believes. I often use the word ELECT because I absolutely love the teaching of Election. Besides, what came first? The Bible or Calvinism?

 

[synergy]

And I gave you scripture
I am blowing smoke?
well there you go folks, giving scripture is blowing smoke.
lol.. Ok whatever..

Here is the verse. Predestination is to be conformed to the image of Christ. So if your predestination started before time began, how much conformity to Christ have been accomplished for 13.8 Billion years before you were born? Or are you continuing to blow smoke against Rom 8:29?

(Rom 8:29) For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

faith minus works equals faith alone

4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted

I agree with Paul that there is no justification by the works of the Law. In fact there was no Law when Abraham existed. So how can anyone plead justification by works of the Law when there was no Law?

16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

I means show me faith plus works in this passage? I can't see it..

No "faith alone" nor "minus work" in verse 16. Dual failures on your part.

Abraham was justified or made righteous in Gen 15. the works James spoke of is in Gen 22. Decades after Abraham was saved.

so you tell me.. Was Abraham lost all those years in-between, or did he receive the righteousness in Gen 15 as God said, and Paul confirmed.

Are you saying that James got it wrong? You think you know better than James? Why can't faithful works vindicate us in front of God?

You keep running away from answering if it's God's justification that James is talking about in James 2:24. It's clear to everyone why you would run away.

I have yet to see any proof from you on anything you are trying to prove me wrong on..

That's because you run away from verses like Rom 2:6-8, James 2:24-26, etc... How can you see them when you continuously run away from them?

I did not switch the subject to grace, it has always been grace..
Where did you say it, By using james saying it is grace plus works.
Sorry bud, it is grace through faith MINUS works..

You are changing subjects on the fly, running away from verses, failing eye examinations. I worry for you.

Actually it destroys your faith plus works grace cancelling ideology
vs 14 says they claimed to have faith
they had zero zip nada works.
and james, asked them, can this CLAIMED faith save them.

That proves my point that faith by itself is dead. It's back to your drawing board again.

 

[GodsGrace]

No.

I am done, if you think a believer has to earn salvation,, then your preaching works not grace.

We cannot earn salvation.
But we do MERIT sanctification.....difference between EARN and MERIT.
If we do not continue in our walk with God...sanctifiction....
are we still justified?

lol.. Sorry I did not see the word allow in the passage.

So you don't believe man has free will?
You believe the Holy Spirit will force us to live out our salvatioin?

Paul said
Philippians 2:12
12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

God will finish his work.. He may have a hard time as we are resistant, and need to chasten us along the way. but when it comes to judgment day, the work will be complete.

I'm NOT getting into OSAS.

Sorry, I trust God not self.

No. the vine is producing the good fruit. We are just the means by which the fruit is made.

And no, he does not remove the believer..

That's plain and simple scripture....
you believe it or you don't.

Thats works, that is self righteous thinking..

Yes,,,many believe our works are filthy rags.
But to God, our works are obedience to His commandments.

Give it to God sister. Stop trying to earn it for yourself

And can you try to understand that we are told to obey?
If we obey....good deeds follow.

yes. Some will produce alot of fruit. some will produce very little. some will be so little when they get rewarded, all their fruit will be birned as wood hay and straw. but he himself will still be saved.

Oh gosh EG. Now you believe in purgatory??
1 Corinthians 3:15.....

If you obeying to keep yourself saved, your trying to merit salvation.

I'm obeying because I love my Savior.
But obey we must.
And we do merit salvation.
Find out what merit means.

Yet you do. by saying it is required or we will lose salvation.

That is a works based gospel. not grace based.

Do you mean that all we need is grace?
God saved us with His grace.
Not by anything we could have done.

So now we're saved.
So now what?

And where does the NT speak of a works based gospel or a grace based gospel?
It just speaks of the gospel.
No works mentioned there.

It teaches us to love one another....
This alone creates work for us.
I DO believe you agree.

But your also doing it for your benefit. so you do not lose salvation

I can't think of any good work I do for me.
Good deeds are usually for the other person.

Yes John did teach

He who believes is not condemned (john 3)
He who asks, will be given living water flowing to eternal life (john 4)
He who sees and believes will not come into judgment, but will live forever (john 5)
He who sees and believes will never hunger, never thirst. they will live forever. they will never die. God will raise them on the last day, and they will not be lost (john 6)

Back to square one EG.
What does BELIEVE mean in Koine Greek at the time it was written?
Maybe Strong's could tell you.

these are prescriptive verses.

You like showing me descriptive verses (they describe what a true believer does)

I don't think Jesus had this concept in mind.
He taught us what He expects of us....period.
Have you read the beatitudes? I know you have.
So are those works?

Then you are done.. Because you are unteachable.. Nothing i say will change your mind.. and that's a bad place to be.. because if your wrong.. Well eternity is a long time to think about why you were wrong.. and did not open up

Ditto to you EG.
And if one of us is wrong,,,,,it'll be the one who did not obey Jesus....
and probably taught others that it's not even important...
all we need to do is believe.
FAITH ALONE. Just like Calvinists.

You should post those verses you listed.
We could discuss...

I never disagreed.

why do you keep falsly accusing me of saying I am against works?

Why are we debating if you're for doing good works?

And you people wonder why youi get in so many fights.. You never listen to anythign the other says, You assume you know. and go off that assumption.

Who is YOU PEOPLE?
The good works crowd?

I just simply asked you to just agree that Jesus wants us to do good works.
See...
You can't do it.

Good works are not necessary, that would put us inder law

There ya go.
Good works are not necessary.
Obedience to God is not necessary.
Obedience to God is being under The Law.....which was abolished by Jesus.

God works however. are a byproduct of salvation. so everyone WILL do them



Your posts cater to people who want to earn salvation.

Every Christian knows we cannot earn our salvation.
The problem, nowadays, is that not every Christian understands we are to obey God.

You teach self righteousness. Not good works.

So good works are self-righteousness?
So Jesus taught self-righteousness?

then you need to be saved. Because no matter how good you are. you fail to meet Gods standard.

Don't I know it!

Actually those who are saved will obey God.

No.
Those that obey God are saved.
Two requirements to being saved:

1. Know that God exists.
2. Obey Him.

you keep putting the order wrong

I am catering to the merit based salvation crowd calling them out.

Right. You're calling out those that want to obey.
By teaching Faith Only.

wasting our time

Keep trying to earn salvation, thats on you. You have fallen for the roman churches merit based salvation system.

If you do not repent, you will fall with them

What does the CC h ave to do with this?
I know you hate it,,,,but keep to the topic.
And, BTW, ROMAN is a rite...not a church.

Pew took a poll of Christians and the majority believes that good works are necessary.
In the early church....EVERYONE believed good works were necessary.
Our faith has been washed down in the past few hundred years.

Looks like it's getting worse too...
Pretty much everything is accepted in some denominations...
the Catholic one might just be next.

So does this make you happy?
Or would you rather be part of a faith that holds to what Jesus and the writers and the Apostles taught
2 thousand years ago?

Or should we change with the times?

You're changing with the times EG.
Not by being immoral...which I know you're not,
but by accepting these modern ideas that are killing Christianity.

 

[GodsGrace]

Since God’s Word existed long before Calvinism, I’ll just stick with the language of the Bible, the Truth. I’m not responsible for what a Calvinist believes. I often use the word ELECT because I absolutely love the teaching of Election. Besides, what came first? The Bible or Calvinism?

I know that you believe this Selah.
I've already stated this to you.

The bible came first.
But Calvinists hijacked the word ELECTION.

Just like homosexuals hijacked the word GAY.
When I was growing up, I used to use the word GAY.
It used to mean a type of happiness.
I had to stop using it.