An Article on free will

You mentioned Mark 16: 20 - 20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.

1 cor 3: 9 - 20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.

We are fellow workers with God
that is not how we came to christ. or how we got saved.
It's by hearing the word of God that we build faith. That was only possible by preaching back then because books were not readily available.

(Rom 10:17) Then faith is of hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

Without faith there is no salvation, remember.
So your barking up the wrong tree..
we are talking about salvation..
did we work to help ourself get saved (synegism) or did God save us, not of works, lest anyone should boast (monergist)
again, this just proves why we need to stop using isms.. Satan uses this against us to divide us.
What do you think they preached about? Of course they preached salvation.

Conclusion: You are warring against salvation by taking issue with the fact that Apostles called themselves Synergists (συνεργοι or συνεργουντος)
 
Here is the verse. Predestination is to be conformed to the image of Christ. So if your predestination started before time began, how much conformity to Christ have been accomplished for 13.8 Billion years before you were born? Or are you continuing to blow smoke against Rom 8:29?

Yes, it was predetermined before time began that I would be conformed to Gods image

Thank you for proving me right.

Now learn the omniscience of God
(Rom 8:29) For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Whome he foreknew.

Guess what? He FORKNEW ME.

I hope and pray he forknew you. But I have my doubts by what you are saying
I agree with Paul that there is no justification by the works of the Law. In fact there was no Law when Abraham existed. So how can anyone plead justification by works of the Law when there was no Law?
There is no justification by works of the law (gal) By works of man (eph 2) by works before the law (romans 4) by works of righteousness (titus 3)

You trying to claim ever time we see the word works it means works of the law is just as bad as someone saying every time we see the word baptize it means water baptism.


No "faith alone" nor "minus work" in verse 16. Dual failures on your part.
Sound to me like you are just wanting to see what you want to see.

This tells me you are not one I should listen to.

Are you saying that James got it wrong? You think you know better than James? Why can't faithful works vindicate us in front of God?
No James did not get it wrong, You God what James said wrong
You keep running away from answering if it's God's justification that James is talking about in James 2:24. It's clear to everyone why you would run away.
I am not running from anything

Abraham was declaired righteous in Gen 15 Before his son was even born.

Because he believed in God with an assurance that God would keep his promise


That's because you run away from verses like Rom 2:6-8, James 2:24-26, etc... How can you see them when you continuously run away from them?
No, I want all of scripture to agree. Not contradict itself. That seems to be what you want


You are changing subjects on the fly, running away from verses, failing eye examinations. I worry for you.

That proves my point that faith by itself is dead. It's back to your drawing board again.
Whatever dude

You have proven that you have no willinglness to listen, you are proud. And there is nothing you can help me with.

I will rely on God and his works.

You want to merit salvation, feel free..

You will meet God one day, you can boast of all your good works.. You just will nto like his answer.
 
We cannot earn salvation.
Then we can not unearn salvation

Which means salvation is secure in christ, not in what we do or do not do

You can;t have it both ways.


But we do MERIT sanctification.....difference between EARN and MERIT.
Merit and earn ar ethe same

You earn a gift by working for it

You merit a gift by working for it


If we do not continue in our walk with God...sanctifiction....
are we still justified?
God justified us,

Did God make a mistake?

Justification means I am declaired righteous, perfect. Innocent of all wrong downing.

Are you perfect yet? if not. You still need justified by grace
So you don't believe man has free will?
Strawman
You believe the Holy Spirit will force us to live out our salvatioin?
No. I believe God does not fail us, he is worthy, and no one who knows God would willingly give it up

If you think they would, I can only assume you have never met christ.

Again, I am not going into this

You want to merit salvation, feel free. You will fail. And you will not like when you boast of all your works, and jesus says depart.
 
I know that you believe this Selah.
I've already stated this to you.

The bible came first.
But Calvinists hijacked the word ELECTION.

Just like homosexuals hijacked the word GAY.
When I was growing up, I used to use the word GAY.
It used to mean a type of happiness.
I had to stop using it.
Just like the romans hijacked the word grace.
 
It's by hearing the word of God that we build faith. That was only possible by preaching back then because books were not readily available.

(Rom 10:17) Then faith is of hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

Without faith there is no salvation, remember.

What do you think they preached about? Of course they preached salvation.

Conclusion: You are warring against salvation by taking issue with the fact that Apostles called themselves Synergists (συνεργοι or συνεργουντος)
Lol

It is the work of God we believ

Dude you want to take credit for saving yourself. Feel free

I give it all to God.. even the works I do. I take no credit, I give the power and authority and glory to God
 
Your definition of all works earning rewards/wages falls on its face.
Well of course it would to a legalist who thinks they must earn salvation or merit it.. Because they can not handle the true meaning, because it would condemn them

Its ok, The jews crucified christ because he gave the message I am tryign to give.. Look to histroy, try to learn t from their mistakes


Therefore, there are many forms of works. This needs to be understood for us to have an intelligent conversation.
You can not earn salvation by any work

Jesus did the work, on the cross.

Your works are as filthy rags, you want to give God your filthy rags as payment for sin. Feel free.
 
Yes, it was predetermined before time began that I would be conformed to Gods image

Thank you for proving me right.

Now learn the omniscience of God


Whome he foreknew.

Guess what? He FORKNEW ME.

I hope and pray he forknew you. But I have my doubts by what you are saying

There is no justification by works of the law (gal) By works of man (eph 2) by works before the law (romans 4) by works of righteousness (titus 3)

You trying to claim ever time we see the word works it means works of the law is just as bad as someone saying every time we see the word baptize it means water baptism.



Sound to me like you are just wanting to see what you want to see.

This tells me you are not one I should listen to.


No James did not get it wrong, You God what James said wrong

I am not running from anything

Abraham was declaired righteous in Gen 15 Before his son was even born.

Because he believed in God with an assurance that God would keep his promise



No, I want all of scripture to agree. Not contradict itself. That seems to be what you want



Whatever dude

You have proven that you have no willinglness to listen, you are proud. And there is nothing you can help me with.

I will rely on God and his works.

You want to merit salvation, feel free..

You will meet God one day, you can boast of all your good works.. You just will nto like his answer.
EG,,,
It's wrong of you to bring into question someone's salvation because they don't agree with you.
Leave the judging of souls to God....which only HE can do.

As to Abraham....
James is making a point.
Abraham was declared righteous in 12....
But he also OBEYED God at that time and left his home.
He always OBEYED God....
James used 15, Isaac, because it was such a difficult command to obey...
and yet, Abraham obeyed THAT command too.
 
EG,,,
It's wrong of you to bring into question someone's salvation because they don't agree with you.
Leave the judging of souls to God....which only HE can do.
I am not judging a persons salvation, I am judging a persons gospel.

As are you..
As to Abraham....
James is making a point.
Abraham was declared righteous in 12....
But he also OBEYED God at that time and left his home.
He always OBEYED God....
James used 15, Isaac, because it was such a difficult command to obey...
and yet, Abraham obeyed THAT command too.
You just proved my point

Abraham did many sins after. He also did many works

The people james spoke to. DID ZERO WORKS.

The words “no works” are very importaint

If a person claims to have faith but HAS NO WORKS.

A person who claims to be saved, and has no works. In my view. Has not repented. You do not have faith or trust someone yet NEVER do anything they say
 
Just like the romans hijacked the word grace.
Not changing the subject....

but here's the difference between EARN and MERIT

For those reading along that might be interested:

EARN: Is payment for work done, as agreed.
MERIT: A reward for a job well done.

An analogy:

A father asks his son to cut the grass for a payment of $10.
The son cuts the grass.
The father pays his son $10.
The son has EARNED $10.

A son sees the grass is long.
He cuts it.
The father sees the son has cut the grass and is appriciative.
The father give the son $10.
The son has MERITED $10.
 
I am not judging a persons salvation, I am judging a persons gospel.

As are you..

You just proved my point

Abraham did many sins after. He also did many works

The people james spoke to. DID ZERO WORKS.

The words “no works” are very importaint

If a person claims to have faith but HAS NO WORKS.

A person who claims to be saved, and has no works. In my view. Has not repented. You do not have faith or trust someone yet NEVER do anything they say
I agree with your last sentence....
but it's NOT what James is saying.

How could two people read the same bible and come out with 2 different ideas?

Maybe WE NEED A POPE TOO!
(but not like the last one).
 
I am not judging a persons salvation, I am judging a persons gospel.
EG...you told me and another member something or other about what we'll hear from God and that we need salvation.

As are you..

You just proved my point

Abraham did many sins after. He also did many works
Who's talking about sin?
I'm talking about obeying God.
The people james spoke to. DID ZERO WORKS.

The words “no works” are very importaint

If a person claims to have faith but HAS NO WORKS.

A person who claims to be saved, and has no works. In my view. Has not repented. You do not have faith or trust someone yet NEVER do anything they say
Uffa.
 
@Eternally-Grateful

I took a discipleship class too, way back when.
It lasted a year.
Learned a lot...it helped a lot.

I used to believe in faith alone too when I got saved.
But after many years of studying the word....it has become apparent
that God demands that we obey Him.

What do you teach your discipleship class?
Don't you teach them to obey God?

Too late...
must go.
 
how?

Do I not have free will to not commit adultry, or to commit adultry, even if I am lost and not saved?
You have the power of choice but not by a free - uncoerced - will. To have no free will does not mean you have no power of choice, only that your choices are restricted to a sinful expression of your desire, forced upon you by your sinfulness.

Iow, being able to choose is not proof your will is free, ie, uncoerced.

The sinner cannot choose to act in righteousness without any taint of sin...ie, he cannot save himself by any choice as all his choices are tainted by his enslavement to sin in rebellion to GOD. Otherwise he could choose salvation in Christ without the Spirit and as a work not by the gift of grace.

IF the sinner cannot choose to save himself because of his sin, then his will is bound by his sin; it is not free but coerced by sin to choose a sinful expression of his desires.
 
I am against obedience as a means of salvation. mocking the cross.
Those who don't carry their cross are the ones who mock the Cross.

24 Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
25 For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul?
27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.
Then you are under works. not under grace
False conclusion. OSAS is proven wrong through Hebrew 6:4-6:

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
 
Yes, it was predetermined before time began that I would be conformed to Gods image
Thank you for proving me right.
Now learn the omniscience of God
Again, you said you were "predestined before time began". For proof I asked you to produce your Conformity to Christ progress reports from 13.8 Billion BC to the day you were born. I'm sure that 13.8 Billion years are ample enough time for at least some progress if what you're saying is true.
Whome he foreknew.
Guess what? He FORKNEW ME.
I hope and pray he forknew you. But I have my doubts by what you are saying
Of course he foreknew believers. He is not confined to space and time like we are. That doesn't prove that you were "predestined before time began". Produce your Conformity to Christ progress reports from 13.8 Billion BC to the day you were born. If I see no progress report then I will conclude that you're just blowing smoke.
There is no justification by works of the law (gal) By works of man (eph 2) by works before the law (romans 4) by works of righteousness (titus 3)

You trying to claim ever time we see the word works it means works of the law is just as bad as someone saying every time we see the word baptize it means water baptism.
Just the opposite. I told you that there are several forms of works, charitable works for one. Again, learn about the different types of work and then we can have an intelligent conversation.
Sound to me like you are just wanting to see what you want to see.
This tells me you are not one I should listen to.
I asked you where do you see "faith alone" or "minus work" in verse 16 and you couldn't. What does that tell you about your remarks? It tells you that you're projecting your faults to others, a common psychological reaction.
No James did not get it wrong, You God what James said wrong
I am not running from anything
You're running away from James 2:24 which declares how we're justified by God.
Abraham was declaired righteous in Gen 15 Before his son was even born.

Because he believed in God with an assurance that God would keep his promise
and?
No, I want all of scripture to agree. Not contradict itself. That seems to be what you want
You can start by agreeing with James 2:24.
Whatever dude
You sound like a p*ssed off teenager.
You have proven that you have no willinglness to listen, you are proud. And there is nothing you can help me with.
You're projecting again.
I will rely on God and his works.
I will rely on God, faith, and the good works that God preordained for us.
You want to merit salvation, feel free..
You want to view Hebrew 6:4-6 and the carrying of our cross in that strawman fashion, feel free.
You will meet God one day, you can boast of all your good works.. You just will nto like his answer.
Nobody is boasting about anything here. You just can't let go of your strawmen.
 
Rom 10:17 should not be laughed at. That's how we build faith in the first place. Without faith there is no salvation, remember.
It is the work of God we believ
Note your words "we believe". That shows our part that is a requirement.
Dude you want to take credit for saving yourself. Feel free
It's all by grace, nobody is taking any credit, so stop with the strawmen already.
I give it all to God.. even the works I do. I take no credit, I give the power and authority and glory to God
How is that different that what I've been saying all along?
 
Well of course it would to a legalist who thinks they must earn salvation or merit it.. Because they can not handle the true meaning, because it would condemn them

Its ok, The jews crucified christ because he gave the message I am tryign to give.. Look to histroy, try to learn t from their mistakes
Now the Ad Hominems have started like clockwork. Just because the Bible exposes your falsehoods does not mean that you should falsely stigmatize messengers.
You can not earn salvation by any work
Nobody here saves himself by himself. That's a strawman accusation. Nevertheless, don't you believe James where he declares that we are justified by faith and faithful good works?
Jesus did the work, on the cross.
Your works are as filthy rags, you want to give God your filthy rags as payment for sin. Feel free.
Those who don't carry their cross are the ones in the wrong about Christ:

24 Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
25 For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul?
27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done
 
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@GodsGrace @Eternally-Grateful
EG,,,
It's wrong of you to bring into question someone's salvation because they don't agree with you.
Leave the judging of souls to God....which only HE can do.
I agreed
As to Abraham....
James is making a point.
Abraham was declared righteous in 12....
But he also OBEYED God at that time and left his home.
He always OBEYED God....
James used 15, Isaac, because it was such a difficult command to obey...
and yet, Abraham obeyed THAT command too.
Both sides of this argument have brought up Abraham and rightly so, because both Paul and James did~Paul used Abraham as a prefect example of one that lived under the system of faith, as being the evidence of being a child of God; James used Abraham as a perfect example of professors of being true worshippers of God, works will be in their life, even if only a smoking flax and a bruised reed, much like Lot, and his carnality.

Galatians 3:6~Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.​


This is the most popular Bible quotation (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3,5,6,9,22,24; Galatians 3:6; Jamess 2:23).

Paul declared New Testament worship of Christ to be comparable to Abraham’s worship, and it is.

The adverbial phrase, even as, means that there is a very strong comparison to be seen. Paul has been mentioning faith over and over, and Abraham is the greatest example of it. The Galatians stood by faith (2:16; 3:1-5); God approved Abraham by faith (Gen 15:6). This is precious and sweet, if you grasp Paul introduced Abraham as father to Gentiles!

The Judaizer false teachers could only offer some connection to Moses by circumcision.

Why is Abraham so important? For very good reasons in opposing the legalism of Judaizers. All the Jews recognized Abraham as the great friend of God, inheritor of promises, and father of the nation, in whom they took great confidence (Matt 3:9; John 8:33; Ex 3:6).

For those trusting Abraham, he was a man approved and commended by God for faith. For those trusting circumcision, Abraham was declared righteous before it (Rom 4:9-12). For those trusting Law, Abram was righteous 430 years before (Rom 4:13-16; Gal 3:17).

What did Abraham believe? God promised him a son and a multitudinous seed (Gen 15:6).

Did Abraham call forth faith in order to be justified and made righteous by God at this time?

Here is where we greatly differ from Arminians and Calvinists alike about justification, whom we find to be very similar on this doctrine, when we press them for definitions~which we try to do with @Eternally-Grateful, but he refused to answer.

Arminians ( @ Eternally-Grateful ) hold conditional justification – faith is the human condition for righteousness~and some among them like @GodsGrace and @synergy add works boldly as means in order to obtain life in the world to come, along with their faith produce by their so-called free will, of their sinful flesh.

Many Calvinists hold instrumental justification – faith is the instrument receiving righteousness.

We deny both as being heretical notions, for our faith does not affect legal justification.

The text says God accepted Abraham’s faith and counted it as evidence for righteousness, which is how we understand it: our faith is the spiritual evidence and fruit of salvation.

The difference is significant ~ is legal justification conditional, or is it unconditional? Is faith the means of righteousness before God, or is it only the evidence of righteousness?

Consider carefully: Abraham had believed God and his promises and trusted Him obediently long before this minor event (Gen 12:1-4; Heb 11:8; Gen 12:7,8; 13:4,14-18; 14:17-24).

If this event was the conditional or instrumental cause of Abraham’s justification, then he was a condemned pagan in his previous acts of worship, which God joyfully accepted! Think again!

Did Melchizedek bless Abram as a condemned sinner on his way to the lake of fire (Gen 14:18-20)?

Before Abraham could get started believing, God had already accepted him (Gen 15:1)!

If this event was the conditional or instrumental cause of Abraham’s justification, then the shish-ka-bob javelin act of Phinehas was his condition or instrument (Ps 106:30-31)! Consider this well and in closing answer these questions if you can......

Is it an act of faith that justifies? A life of faith? Or only while you have faith? Or what?
Or, is it true that legally we are justified by the faith and obedience of Jesus Christ alone? And our faith and other good works are the evidence that we have been justified by the grace of God on the behalf of Jesus Christ. I stand upon this blessed and biblical truth, the true gospel of Jesus Christ.
 
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