An Article on free will

[Eternally-Grateful]

we have to accept the reward
we have to deposit or cash the check

I did not have to deposit the cash or check.

God credited to my account his righteousness.

He wanted to save me, I said yes lord. have mercy on me, He saved me, i did nothing.. but stop getting in his way..

so there is something we do for the reward or money to be used.

yes, if we want rewards like gold silver and precious stones. amen.

But salvation is not a reward. it is a gift.

faith demands action on out part to receive Gods grace. its why Jesus said your faith has saved you, your faith healed you etc...

But faith is not an action.

Faith is getting out of Gods way and letting him save you.

Yes their faith healed them, they got out of Gods way and in faith allowed God to heal them.

he who does not believe is condemned already

they prevent God from giving them his gift.. Because God will not force it on them (as the calvinist would say, even though they deny it)

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Lets read what Jesus said and taught below for the answer to your question

God requires belief/ faith. Always has in the OT as He does in the NT. Hebrews 11 makes it clear. Believing is mans responsibility to Gods drawing , conviction of the Holy Spirit. God does not believe for us. Jesus numerous times taught this truth.

Here is how some would rewrite Jesus words below and add to scripture things that were never said nor implied.

Parenthesis is Calvinism false assertion below that God gives faith. Jesus said it was THEIR faith that saved them.

Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith ( I have given you )hath saved thee; go in peace.

Luke 8:48
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith ( I have given you )has healed you. Go in peace."

Luke 17:19
Then Jesus said to him, "Rise and go; your faith( I have given you ) has made you well!"

Luke 18:42
"Receive your sight!" Jesus replied. "Your faith( I have give you ) has healed you."

Matthew 8:10
When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.

Matthew 8:13
Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! As you have believed, so will it be done for you." And his servant was healed at that very hour.

Matthew 9:2
Just then some men brought to Him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.

Matthew 9:22
Jesus turned and saw her. "Take courage, daughter," He said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was cured from that very hour.

Matthew 9:29
Then He touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you."

Matthew 15:28
"O woman," Jesus answered, "your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Mark 5:34
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be free of your affliction."

Mark 10:52
"Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.

John 4:53
So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.

ok let me ask you this

did these people not know Who Jesus was. Not know he could save them, Not see evidence that God could save them, Just one day decide there is this man and I am just going to go and see if he will heal me. even though I have absolutely no evidence of confidence he can?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

yes and faith is never a work or merit. its trusting in Gods promises/word/gospel in spite of circumstances.

in faith we are pleading with God for His mercy and for God to forgive us our debts/sins and repent of them and trust solely in Him as our Lord/Savior.

Amen

Faith is a work of God.

Now we can trust self.. and Not God.. this is a work which comes from self.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

anyone and everyone can repent and believe the gospel.

then no. they were not for ordained or chosen to go to hell (double fatalism)

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I know this is not easy.
I've been on threads about this that went on forever...
I don't discuss it much anymore because we just go around in circles.

I agree that Adam ate the fruit because of Eve....
He realized what she did and wanted to "be with her"...not abandon her to her disobedience.
She was all he had.

Yes.. So in his free will. he chose Eve over God.

You said that pride was his first sin.
Stop for a second.....
If the sin nature had not entered into Adam YET....
when he decided to eat the apple...
WHAT made him tend toward sin?

Free will.

If you have free will. you have the capacity to use it to serve self and not God.

Thats different than the sin nature. which requires you to serve self. trying to fill that whole left when we were separated from God.

thats why a non believer can not do good.. because they can not love. we love because God loved us..

If Gods love is the means of obedience. then not having the capacity to love as God loves would keep us from doing any good.

They were not to eat from the tree of good and evil.
So they KNEW ONLY GOOD ....
BEFORE eating the fruit.

Yes.. and God before the law took care of every need they had.

After the fall. that was severed..

So, if they hadn't eaten from the tree yet to know evil...
Where did the evil desire of pride come from?

free will.

Eve was decieved.

Adam knew what he was doing.

He chose Eve over God.

 

[Jim]

A work is a work is a work.

Yes, but that is not what Paul spoke about. He spoke, not against works generally, but rather works of law. Not all works are works of law. Jesus said that believing is a work. But that work is not a work of law.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Yes, but that is not what Paul spoke about. He spoke, not against works generally, but rather works of law. Not all works are works of law. Jesus said that believing is a work. But that work is not a work of law.

No. Paul did not speak specifically about works of the law in all cases.

Yes in galations he did

He did not in eph 2, He did not in titus 3. he did not in romans 4.

Salvation by works of merit has been a false gospel since Cain tried to Give God fruits of his works.. and God rejected his human good

 

[GodsGrace]

its ok

Yes he made a point

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?


Profit - to ophelos - advantage, benefit ,of any use
says - lege to say, to talk, to speak, to confess
faith - pistin - faith, to have confidence in, to trust, to be persuaded
so we see, we have people who CLAIM they have faith. Claim they are persuaded about God and what God says about them and his promise to them . they trust God. they have confidence in God and all his says.

You know EG,,,,we've been debating this for about 10 years now.
I really don't know why this needs to be debated.
Me, you, mailmandan, others.
It's like debating whether or not we should obey God.

But...OK...here we go again:

No greek needed....
Let's try to trust the translators.

James 2:24
14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

Who is James speaking to?
His brethren. Believers just as he is.

What James is saying is that faith without works is a uselss faith.

There is NO MENTION of persons that CLAIM to have faith.

Forget about this idea...it's not in the scripture.

James is plainly saying that faith without works is a dead faith.
A dead faith leads to a dead spirit.

He's saying that FAITH without WORKS is dead.
No mention of persons... He's talking about faith, a TYPE of faith. (that anyone could or could not have).

He's speaking to faith....salvific faith.
A faith without works is NOT salvific faith.

Because it doesn't follow what Jesus taught.
James was with Jesus and learned from Him for over THREE YEARS.
A person learns a lot in 3 years of being with someone every day.

Jesus taught that we are to do good works:

Matthew 25:34-36
34 "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'

No, he was not.

James was not speaking to believers?
Why does he call his audience brethren??

Even if he was speaking to non-believers, you still have a problem....
he was teaching them HOW TO BE SAVED.....

To be saved you need a faith that does good works.
No good works....no faith.

If he was, you claim we can believe yet not have faith, and be saved?

I don't understand....

He did not say one had faith,

He said they CLAIM TO HAVE FAITH

WHERE is the word CLAIM ??

Show me the word CLAIM please...
I don't see it.

again look at the words

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says/claims/states he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

He never said they had faith. this is the first error in trying to interpret james words

What does it matter if I say I'm going shopping....
but then I don't go?
Can that shopping get us dinner?
NO.
It's the GOING SHOPPING that is going to get us dinner...
what I said is not important.
The parable of the two sons....
WHICH SON OBEYED his father?
The one who SAID/CLAIMED/STATED " I will not go"......
or the one who SAID/CLAIMED/STATED " I will go" ....
Jesus is looking for action...for good works.

Takes away here means lifts up..

Try to study what a vinedresser does.

Love that greek dontcha?
No Greek necessary.

Let's look at it again:

John 15:1-2a
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;

Every branch IN ME ---- a believer
That does Not bear fruit-----the believer is not bearing fruit....
The Father takes away.

The Father TAKES AWAY means to LIFT UP?
How does one lift up a branch to then burn it up?

John 15:6
6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

In verse 1 we read that the branch is IN THE VINE...
The branch is IN ME....
to be IN CHRIST means that one is saved.

THAT person,,,,that branch....that is IN ME/CHRIST
WILL BE TAKEN AWAY.....

TO BE BURNED...John 15:6

If we do NOT ABIDE IN CHRIST...we are THROWN AWAY as a branch, gathered and cast into a fire to be burned up.


The BELIEVERS that DO NOT BEAR FRUIT are thrown away.

but that does nto even matter

On james, these people NEVER had works..

1. They claimed to have faith
2. They had ZERO WORKS. (these are not people who had faith, did some works for awhile. then fell away, these are people who claimed they had faith, yet had zero sip nada works.

so john 15 does not relate to james anyway

Of course John 15 relates to James 1 and 2.
They both are regarding doing good works.

It's speaking about BELIEVERS.
It's speaking about the necessity of doing GOOD WORKS.

Can't get around it EG.

 

[GodsGrace]

Speak for yourself

LOL
Why?
You're not human?

Or what the word calls, the nature to sin, or a sin nature.

God did not create us with this nature. it came after we sinned.

I agree.
What could I have stated differently???

God created us in his image

Agreed.

God gave me a new nature.

but again....

I agree.
Not going back to see what was being discussed.
I agree with the above.

 

[GodsGrace]

God works are not a problem.

unless we make them a requirement for eternity in heaven with God.

then it becomes a huge problem

They ARE a REQUIREMENT.

So for YOU it's a problem.
I don't think you mean that.


1 John 5:3
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

 

[GodsGrace]

Arminianism did not exist either.

I don't know what Arminus taught, and, quite frankly, I don't care.
I like to stick to the bible.

But that's beside the point. History would not support Jesus (ot history written by men, namely all the extra biblical books of the jews and other writings of men not scripture)

I don't know what you could possibly mean by this.

Thats why Peter said no prophecy is up for private interpretation.

Ah. But here we are.
Privately interpreting scripture we don't agree on.

The OT prophet spoke as from God

They apostles witnessed this truth and confirmed what the OT prophets said.

Scripture interprets scripture. Not our denominations, Our men, Our leaders or even ourself.

I agree.
I do, however, know that we can know what the Apostles taught to the second generation of Christians.

 

[GodsGrace]

Try to study what a vinedresser does.

Just caught this EG.
It's pretty funny!!

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You know EG,,,,we've been debating this for about 10 years now.
I really don't know why this needs to be debated.
Me, you, mailmandan, others.
It's like debating whether or not we should obey God.

No it is not.

and that is why we will continue to disagree.

Its not about should we obey God or not.

its about. did they have saving faith.

The answer is no

But...OK...here we go again:

No greek needed....
Let's try to trust the translators.

James 2:24
14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

Who is James speaking to?
His brethren. Believers just as he is.

No. He said they CLAIM to have faith. He never said they have faith.

Not everyone he wroite to was saved. thats never the case in any NT epistle..

What James is saying is that faith without works is a uselss faith.

No. WHat james is saying is if you claim to have faith, But you have no works proving you had faith. Your faith was not real. you made a false claim. and then he asked each of those people.

Can this dead faith save you?

the answer is no.

we are saved by grace through faith.

no faith. no salvation

There is NO MENTION of persons that CLAIM to have faith.

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works?

says - lego - To say, To tell, to claim, to state as a fact.

I am going to do us both a favor and stop here. You state, there is no mention a person claimed to have faith. yet it is there in black and white.

If you can not get this in your context, then you can never understand what James is saying, hence nothing you say after this is really of any use to either of us

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

LOL
Why?
You're not human?

I have a human spirit (human nature) made in the image of God

I have a sin nature, which is apposed to God.

My human spirit was dead to God. it was made alive, and hence I can now act as I was created.

but I still have that sin nature that keeps trying to drag me down

I agree.
What could I have stated differently???

so you agree adam was not created with a sin nature?

Agreed.

I agree.
Not going back to see what was being discussed.
I agree with the above.

do you remember what the discussion was about?

 

[GodsGrace]

No it is not.

and that is why we will continue to disagree.

Its not about should we obey God or not.

its about. did they have saving faith.

The answer is no

No. He said they CLAIM to have faith. He never said they have faith.

Not everyone he wroite to was saved. thats never the case in any NT epistle..

No. WHat james is saying is if you claim to have faith, But you have no works proving you had faith. Your faith was not real. you made a false claim. and then he asked each of those people.

Can this dead faith save you?

the answer is no.

we are saved by grace through faith.

no faith. no salvation

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works?

says - lego - To say, To tell, to claim, to state as a fact.

I am going to do us both a favor and stop here. You state, there is no mention a person claimed to have faith. yet it is there in black and white.

If you can not get this in your context, then you can never understand what James is saying, hence nothing you say after this is really of any use to either of us

EG
I also think we've had enough.
But you can't say I'm thickheaded...
maybe YOU are the one that's thickheaded.

WHERE does the verse say CLAIM?
Why does James use the word Brethren just a few verses above the verse YOU posted?

Of course not every word in the NT is to believers....
why the gospel then !

But in some cases it IS
and in some cases it's ONLY FOR THE APOSTLES.

Let's take your view:
SOMEONE CLAIMS TO HAVE FAITH
BUT DOES NOT HAVE WORKS
CAN THAT FAITH SAVE HIM?

Your answer is a resounding NO.

Good. Because we're still back to having to state that good works are necessary for salvation.
If a faith WITHOUT WORKS will not save...

Then ONLY a FAITH WITH WORKS will save.

 

[GodsGrace]

I have a human spirit (human nature) made in the image of God

I have a sin nature, which is apposed to God.

My human spirit was dead to God. it was made alive, and hence I can now act as I was created.

but I still have that sin nature that keeps trying to drag me down

Agreed.

so you agree adam was not created with a sin nature?

Of course.

do you remember what the discussion was about?

Nope!
LOL

 

[GodsGrace]

I have a human spirit (human nature) made in the image of God

I have a sin nature, which is apposed to God.

My human spirit was dead to God. it was made alive, and hence I can now act as I was created.

but I still have that sin nature that keeps trying to drag me down

so you agree adam was not created with a sin nature?

do you remember what the discussion was about?

Wait.
I THINK you were saying that we have 2 natures....
one human nature and one sin nature.
Not sure.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

They ARE a REQUIREMENT.

then we are saved by works. Not grace.

romans 4: 2
For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us (a completed act) and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

titus 3:
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, (good deeds of any type) but according to His mercy He saved us, (again a completed act) through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 hat having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Again grace plus works - works..

So for YOU it's a problem.
I don't think you mean that.


1 John 5:3
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

we are his children

if your not saved by grace. this is meaningless to you. You must be saved first.

I am not against obedience.

I am against obedience as a means of salvation. mocking the cross. Faith plus works to merit salvation

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I don't know what Arminus taught, and, quite frankly, I don't care.
I like to stick to the bible.

so do I, so I could care less about arminian, calvin, or the roman catholic church, ot baptist. or lutheran or any other church.

I don't know what you could possibly mean by this.

The jews used these books written by men to appose jesus. books not part of the word.

sadly. many large churches today do the same. I guess they figure they can make the same mistake and not reep the same error?

Ah. But here we are.
Privately interpreting scripture we don't agree on.

Scripture interprets scripture.

It has nothing to do with what we agree or disagree on, it is what does the word say

I agree.
I do, however, know that we can know what the Apostles taught to the second generation of Christians.

No actually you can not.. Because we have no inspired words..

What you have is what the church at Rome allowed to pass through as history..

again, books outside of scripture.. which as we have seen, The jews tried to use to prove themselves right, and crucified christ over..

Again, Peter said stick to the word. Scripture is what matters, not our private interpretation.

He then immediately apposed false teachers. which were already infiltering the church with false words,, so the danger was there when peter was in jail. it did not stop. and Jesus said the church would continue to deal with it..

well we see they did and still are

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Just caught this EG.
It's pretty funny!!

so what does a vine dresser do to a branch that is laying on the ground being chocked out and unable to produce fruit..

Or what does he do to branches that have dead twigs on them, and are not producing fruit?

it may be funny, But this is a serious matter.