An Article on free will

[Kermos]

Please refrain from tagging me in future posts, @Kermos. I am not here to seek affirmation nor to participate in discussions that, in my view, diminish the majesty of the Sovereign and Holy God. I also believe that your recent comments may be in violation of this forum’s rules.

J.

Think EXTERNALLY, not internally Rella. All our Lord's temptations were from the outside, not internally.

J.

If you express hearty agreement through your "Like" of someone else's post to me then you engaged with me, so, if the Lord wills, then I will tag you in response to that which, in effect, you write to me.

This post is also to @civic due to your agreement with @Johann's post.

Interesting, that you say the devil's temptations toward Lord Jesus Christ where not internal, because the devil's external stimulus (object of temptation) resulted in Christ's internal response (exposing fruit of the Spirit of God) (see Matthew 4:1-11).

Our Christian Example, Lord Jesus Christ (John 13:15), shows that the Spirit of God must be here within us in order for good fruit of the Spirit of God!

King Jesus is Sovereign over the Kingdom of God. If a man possesses any sovereignty to any degree regarding his entrance to the Kingdom of God, such as a free-willian's self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) choosing to enter apart from King Jesus, then King Jesus is not Sovereign in the matter.

The Word of God reveals the Sovereignty of God with:

​

It is written, "Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God."​

(Matthew 4:4)​

​

Again, it is written, "You shall not put the Lord your God to the test."​

(Matthew 4:7)​

​

Go, Satan! For it is written, "You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only."​

(Matthew 4:10)​

​

Jesus says Man shall live on every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God (Matthew 4:4), so He includes the blessings of "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) and “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) and “It is the Spirit who gives Life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and are Life” (John 6:63).

Jesus says You shall not put the Lord your God to the test (Matthew 4:7), yet free-willians hold to "apart from Christ, I chose to believe in Christ so Christ must profit me with salvation".

Jesus says You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only (Matthew 4:10), so this wonderful saying matches beautifully with "I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me" (John 6:38), which is serving God, but the free-willian apart from Christ, I chose to believe in Christ so Christ must profit me with salvation" is self-serving.

Focus on the Word of God.

Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE SOVEREIGN OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD!!!

 

[Jim]

You have the power of choice but not by a free - uncoerced - will. To have no free will does not mean you have no power of choice, only that your choices are restricted to a sinful expression of your desire, forced upon you by your sinfulness.

Iow, being able to choose is not proof your will is free, ie, uncoerced.

The sinner cannot choose to act in righteousness without any taint of sin...ie, he cannot save himself by any choice as all his choices are tainted by his enslavement to sin in rebellion to GOD. Otherwise he could choose salvation in Christ without the Spirit and as a work not by the gift of grace.

So when you choose not to murder someone, that choice is tainted by your enslavement to sin in rebellion to God? Interesting. Interesting but wrong.

IF the sinner cannot choose to save himself because of his sin, then his will is bound by his sin; it is not free but coerced by sin to choose a sinful expression of his desires.

A sinner cannot choose to save himself for the same reason he cannot choose to go to another galaxy.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You have the power of choice but not by a free - uncoerced - will. To have no free will does not mean you have no power of choice, only that your choices are restricted to a sinful expression of your desire, forced upon you by your sinfulness.

Iow, being able to choose is not proof your will is free, ie, uncoerced.

The sinner cannot choose to act in righteousness without any taint of sin...ie, he cannot save himself by any choice as all his choices are tainted by his enslavement to sin in rebellion to GOD. Otherwise he could choose salvation in Christ without the Spirit and as a work not by the gift of grace.

IF the sinner cannot choose to save himself because of his sin, then his will is bound by his sin; it is not free but coerced by sin to choose a sinful expression of his desires.

sorry but this makes no sense.

Free will means I have choice. to chose this way or that way or a multitude of other ways.

if it is not free. it is bound by some external force.. and if God is that force. well. God is not very good God is he?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Those who don't carry their cross are the ones who mock the Cross.

Well i carry mine, everyone I know does.

thats not the problem

the problem is those tryign to add their works of righteousness to the gospel of grace. nullifying grace

the jew added circumcision. do you think your any better than the jew?

Paul called them fools, he said they should be anathema.. what makes you better than them?

24 Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
25 For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul?
27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.

False conclusion. OSAS is proven wrong through Hebrew 6:4-6:

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

no. you see, Like james, you have a faulty view

Read the passage,

it is impossible.

what is impossible?

If they fall away, to renew them to repentance.

It is clear in the passage, the people Hebrews was written to wanted to Go back to law. In the law. You sin, you fall away, You give sacrifice, you are renewed to repentance and resaved until you sin again.

The author is clear. If you fall away (if it were possible, which it is not) you could never get resaved.

This destroys nosas.. and your saved, not saved, saved, not saved roller coaster

 

[Jim]

What did Abraham believe? God promised him a son and a multitudinous seed (Gen 15:6).

Abraham believed in God. That was exceedingly more than simply believing that he would have many descendants.

Did Abraham call forth faith in order to be justified and made righteous by God at this time?

That is a nonsensical question. First, one doesn't "call forth faith". One believes in God. That means that he believed everything that he knew about God and he placed his trust and confidence in God to do everything God said he would do. Abrahame believed in God.

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God. 11 By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as many as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore. 13 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. 15 If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city. 17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was in the act of offering up his only son, 18 of whom it was said, "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." 19 He considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead, from which, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back.

Here is where we greatly differ from Arminians and Calvinists alike about justification, whom we find to be very similar on this doctrine, when we press them for definitions~which we try to do with @Eternally-Grateful, but he refused to answer.

Arminians ( @ Eternally-Grateful ) hold conditional justification – faith is the human condition for righteousness~and some among them like @GodsGrace and @synergy add works boldly as means in order to obtain life in the world to come, along with their faith produce by their so-called free will, of their sinful flesh.

Many Calvinists hold instrumental justification – faith is the instrument receiving righteousness.

We deny both as being heretical notions, for our faith does not affect legal justification.

The text says God accepted Abraham’s faith and counted it as evidence for righteousness, which is how we understand it: our faith is the spiritual evidence and fruit of salvation.

The difference is significant ~ is legal justification conditional, or is it unconditional? Is faith the means of righteousness before God, or is it only the evidence of righteousness?

Consider carefully: Abraham had believed God and his promises and trusted Him obediently long before this minor event (Gen 12:1-4; Heb 11:8; Gen 12:7,8; 13:4,14-18; 14:17-24).

If this event was the conditional or instrumental cause of Abraham’s justification, then he was a condemned pagan in his previous acts of worship, which God joyfully accepted! Think again!

Did Melchizedek bless Abram as a condemned sinner on his way to the lake of fire (Gen 14:18-20)?

Before Abraham could get started believing, God had already accepted him (Gen 15:1)!

If this event was the conditional or instrumental cause of Abraham’s justification, then the shish-ka-bob javelin act of Phinehas was his condition or instrument (Ps 106:30-31)! Consider this well and in closing answer these questions if you can......


Or, is it true that legally we are justified by the faith and obedience of Jesus Christ alone? And our faith and other good works are the evidence that we have been justified by the grace of God on the behalf of Jesus Christ. I stand upon this blessed and biblical truth, the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

Yet again you trivialize what it means to be justified with your insistence upon those five so-called "stages of salvation". To be saved means many things, but they don't occur in stages. All of what it means to be saved, present and future, is instituted at that very instant of being justified. One does not become more or less saved as time proceeds.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Again, you said you were "predestined before time began". For proof I asked you to produce your Conformity to Christ progress reports from 13.8 Billion BC to the day you were born. I'm sure that 13.8 Billion years are ample enough time for at least some progress if what you're saying is true.

lol. this is called fishing

Not playing your game..

Of course he foreknew believers. He is not confined to space and time like we are. That doesn't prove that you were "predestined before time began". Produce your Conformity to Christ progress reports from 13.8 Billion BC to the day you were born. If I see no progress report then I will conclude that you're just blowing smoke.

God said I was predestined before time..

I will trust God. not someone who does not even trust the cross is sufficient to save a person completely

Just the opposite. I told you that there are several forms of works, charitable works for one. Again, learn about the different types of work and then we can have an intelligent conversation.

Yes. and you failed to prove your point

the wage of sin is death, Not your good works..

I asked you where do you see "faith alone" or "minus work" in verse 16 and you couldn't. What does that tell you about your remarks? It tells you that you're projecting your faults to others, a common psychological reaction.

16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

Again, show me where ANYTHING other than faith is required in this passage.

It is of faith. that it might be of grace.

it does not say it is of faith plus works.

Faith minus anything equals faith alone

Keep resisting.. All your doing is proving to me I am on the right track.

You're running away from James 2:24 which declares how we're justified by God.

No..

and?

You can start by agreeing with James 2:24.

You sound like a p*ssed off teenager.

You're projecting again.

I will rely on God, faith, and the good works that God preordained for us.

You want to view Hebrew 6:4-6 and the carrying of our cross in that strawman fashion, feel free.

Nobody is boasting about anything here. You just can't let go of your strawmen.

lol. I agree with James

Just not your faulty interpretation.

James spoke to specific non believers who claimed to have faith but had no works.

I guess you think they were saved minue any works.. they defend they must have works.

you contradict yourself in the passage.

again, further proof that something is wrong with your thinking in this passage

 

[MTMattie]

Are you saying that James got it wrong? You think you know better than James? Why can't faithful works vindicate us in front of God?

What are faithful works?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Rom 10:17 should not be laughed at. That's how we build faith in the first place. Without faith there is no salvation, remember.

I am laughing at you my friend.

Because you are funny..

Note your words "we believe". That shows our part that is a requirement.

It is the work of God we believe

I do not take credit. I give it to God
if thats a bad thing, forgive me

Not of works lest anyone should boast. You want to boast. feel free. count me out eternity is too long

It's all by grace, nobody is taking any credit, so stop with the strawmen already.

Yet you keep pushing works.

Your the one with the strawman, it is all of grace. but it must be merited by works..

Grace plus works = works.. Paul was clear on this

How is that different that what I've been saying all along?

You are boasting in your faith, your works. how you do good deeds. while others do not

Thats what legalists do. they boast. or they judge others.

its bad enough you claim you preach grace not works. yet works is your foundation.

now you say youi do not boast. when its all you do. Boast of your knowledge, Boast of your faith, and boast of your works

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Now the Ad Hominems have started like clockwork. Just because the Bible exposes your falsehoods does not mean that you should falsely stigmatize messengers.

aww poor Guy, I know the truth hurts.

Nobody here saves himself by himself.

lol.. see here is your issue

The reality is, no one saved themselves period. By themself or not..

Your saved by God. not God plus you

That's a strawman accusation. Nevertheless, don't you believe James where he declares that we are justified by faith and faithful good works?

I believe Jesus, He who believes will never perish, but live forever. (john 3) He who believes has passed from death to life and will not come to condemnation, (john 5) He who believes will never be lost. and Jesus will raise us on the last day (john 6)

I believe paul. I was saved by grace period. But God will not force it on me, I must receive it in faith. (eph 2) Not by good deeds I have done (works) by by His mercy God saved me (a completed action (Titus 3) If it is grace it is no longer of works otherwise grace is no longer grace (grace plus works - works) romans 11. After I here the word of truth, and having believed, I am sealed by the spirit until redemtpion day (not until I fall away)

Abraham was justified in Gen 15. The work James spoke of was in Gen 22. decades after he was declaired righteous..

Those who don't carry their cross are the ones in the wrong about Christ:

24 Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
25 For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul?
27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done

yawn.. this is getting boring

Same ole strawman, because you refuse to listen to what we say.

We carry our cross.. we work. we trust God. and we continue to grow. learning to trust him more

You do not know us. everything you say is based on what you have been taught.

you have been led astray.. and prove it every time you post falsly accusing those who place their trust and faith in the redeemer. not in themselves

 

[Johann]

ouch.

I think The jews shows man response to God's commands. and it was not good.

What are you saying @Eternally-Grateful--after salvation, being led by the Spirit, our will "swallowed up in the sweet will of Christ" the believer is not capable to respond to the Imperatives of Christ?

J.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

What are you saying @Eternally-Grateful--after salvation, being led by the Spirit, our will "swallowed up in the sweet will of Christ" the believer is not capable to respond to the Imperatives of Christ?

J.

No

I am saying what the word says

the law caused sin to increase

The law was a demand even the fathers could not keep

the law shows our sin, and leads us to christ.

we who are saved, follow the law of Love, and seek after the things of the spirit.. which is how we obey.

Following the law (or trying) will just lead to defeat. because if y9ou keep the whole law. yet stumble (accident) in one area, your guilty of all

 

[Johann]

Why do so many say belief/faith is a WORK that we are commanded to do?
As I read John 6:29 I do not read it as a WORK that we do, as much as I see it is a command from the Father

Thank you in advance

Hi sister.

Not Man’s Work, but God's Ordained Means
Jesus is not redefining “faith” as a meritorious deed. Rather, He is correcting the people’s preoccupation with external labor for perishable bread (v. 27) and redirecting them to the true “work” that God esteems — namely, to trust in the One He has sent.

The irony is that their question in v. 28 was, “What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?” expecting a list of religious tasks.

Christ’s reply dismantles this transactional view and replaces it with the idea that the real requirement is faith — not as human achievement, but as reception of God's appointed Redeemer.

3. Early Christian Interpretation and Patristic Witness
Origen comments on this verse in Commentary on John, Book 19.6, saying:

“They asked what they should do to perform the works of God. Jesus answers that faith itself is the work of God, indicating that to believe in Christ is not a human achievement but a divine operation in man.”


“Faith is the root and mother of all good; it justifies the sinner, unites him to God, and effects the indwelling of Christ. To believe is therefore no common work, but the greatest and most acceptable to God.” (Commentary on John, Book IV).

Hope this answers your question Rella?

Johann.

 

[synergy]

What are faithful works?

Works based on faith. The Bible refers to them as "Works of Faith".

 

[Johann]

No

I am saying what the word says

the law caused sin to increase

The law was a demand even the fathers could not keep

the law shows our sin, and leads us to christ.

we who are saved, follow the law of Love, and seek after the things of the spirit.. which is how we obey.

Following the law (or trying) will just lead to defeat. because if y9ou keep the whole law. yet stumble (accident) in one area, your guilty of all

I'm not even referring to the law here brother, law aside, and no, we are not lawless @Eternally-Grateful-I'm asking you HOW do you obey the things of the Spirit.?

J.

 

[Johann]

What are faithful works?

Hi Rella--

Titus 3:8

“This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.”
Faith leads to a life of consistent, intentional good works — not for justification, but for witness and edification.

5. 1 Thessalonians 1:3

“Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ…”
A "work of faith" is not legalistic striving, but a labor energized by belief in the risen Lord — consistent service to others, perseverance in trial, and love-driven actions.

6. Matthew 5:16

“Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.”
Faithful works are to be visible - not for praise of self, but so others glorify God by seeing the transformation in His people.

7. Hebrews 10:24

“And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works.”
Faithful works are communal — believers are to encourage one another to continue in love-fueled action.

8. Revelation 2:19

“I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.”
In the messages to the churches, Jesus commends not faith alone, but a progression of faith seen in action — charity (ἀγάπη), service (διακονία), endurance, and sustained deeds.

9. 1 Timothy 5:10

“Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints’ feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.”
A widow’s faithful works are listed as practical, compassionate deeds: hospitality, care for the needy, humility, and devotion to service.

10. Romans 2:6–7

“Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life.”
God’s righteous judgment takes into account continued good deeds as the fruit of seeking God - again, not works that earn salvation, but the path walked by the justified.


Faithful works in Scripture are not the means by which salvation is earned, but the fruits that necessarily accompany true faith.

They include loving service (Gal. 5:6), care for others (1 Tim. 5:10), obedience to Christ’s commands (Matt. 7:21), endurance in holiness (Rev. 2:19), and the pursuit of justice and mercy (Micah 6:8, James 1:27). They flow not from the flesh, but from a regenerate heart indwelt by the Spirit.

You agree?

Johann.

 

[Red Baker]

@ Johann

“They asked what they should do to perform the works of God. Jesus answers that faith itself is the work of God, indicating that to believe in Christ is not a human achievement but a divine operation in man.”

Well praise be to the LORD God, he did correctly say a truth that I can embraced as a truth from the the holy scriptures.

Thanks brother for posting.

 

[Red Baker]

@Johann

You agree?

100% well said.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I'm not even referring to the law here brother, law aside, and no, we are not lawless @Eternally-Grateful-I'm asking you HOW do you obey the things of the Spirit.?

J.

I showed you

1. The law of love, Love the lord you God with all your heart mind and soul. and your neighbor as yourself.. (your neighbor is anyone, including your enemy)

2. seek after the things of the spirit. and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

It is called looking out not in.. Let God take care of you.. You take his love and give it to others.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

What are faithful works?

faithful works are serving others. Serving God. Fulfilling the law of Love and seeking after the things of the spirit.

The come expecting nothing in return. just Like God did.. He served because he loved, not to get anything back

what faithful works are not is working to earn something, be it praise of men, or praise of God. Working to gain or keep something you have (such as salvation) or working to earn any type of reward.

what a legalist fails to realise, is what they call faithful works. or works to serve self. Not God. you expect something in return. your doing it to keep from losing rewards or salvation, or to keep those rewards or salvation.

Christ came to serve. not to be served, and he calls us to this same outpouring of love, we love because he first loved us

 

[MTMattie]

Hi Rella--

Titus 3:8

“This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.”
Faith leads to a life of consistent, intentional good works — not for justification, but for witness and edification.

5. 1 Thessalonians 1:3

“Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ…”
A "work of faith" is not legalistic striving, but a labor energized by belief in the risen Lord — consistent service to others, perseverance in trial, and love-driven actions.

6. Matthew 5:16

“Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.”
Faithful works are to be visible - not for praise of self, but so others glorify God by seeing the transformation in His people.

7. Hebrews 10:24

“And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works.”
Faithful works are communal — believers are to encourage one another to continue in love-fueled action.

8. Revelation 2:19

“I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.”
In the messages to the churches, Jesus commends not faith alone, but a progression of faith seen in action — charity (ἀγάπη), service (διακονία), endurance, and sustained deeds.

9. 1 Timothy 5:10

“Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints’ feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.”
A widow’s faithful works are listed as practical, compassionate deeds: hospitality, care for the needy, humility, and devotion to service.

10. Romans 2:6–7

“Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life.”
God’s righteous judgment takes into account continued good deeds as the fruit of seeking God - again, not works that earn salvation, but the path walked by the justified.


Faithful works in Scripture are not the means by which salvation is earned, but the fruits that necessarily accompany true faith.

They include loving service (Gal. 5:6), care for others (1 Tim. 5:10), obedience to Christ’s commands (Matt. 7:21), endurance in holiness (Rev. 2:19), and the pursuit of justice and mercy (Micah 6:8, James 1:27). They flow not from the flesh, but from a regenerate heart indwelt by the Spirit.

You agree?

Johann.

For the most part I agree. It is just for me I never thought in the term work of any kind but what I felt I oought to do, out of love.

Thanks