An Article on free will

Red Baker said:
@GodsGrace

Truly, I know of no Calvinist who believe this, maybe you do, but, I have been around thousands of them and never have heard them said this.

God created sin only in this sense, he knew that creation of itself would reveal the knowledge of sin, (good and evil) since he "alone" hates and cannot sin.
Click to expand...
RB,,,I tire of having to explain to Calvinists what they believe.
If you want to be a calvinist...learn what they believe....

God created everything.
Everything.
God decrees everything.
Everything.


we must consider that the Providence of God, as taught in Scripture, is opposed to fortune and fortuitous causes. By an erroneous opinion prevailing in all ages, an opinion almost universally prevailing in our own day--viz. that all things happen fortuitously, the true doctrine of Providence has not only been obscured, but almost buried. If one falls among robbers, or ravenous beasts; if a sudden gust of wind at sea causes shipwreck; if one is struck down by the fall of a house or a tree; if another, when wandering through desert paths, meets with deliverance; or, after being tossed by the waves, arrives in port, and makes some wondrous hair-breadth escape from death--all these occurrences, prosperous as well as adverse, carnal sense will attribute to fortune. But whose has learned from the mouth of Christ that all the hairs of his head are numbered (Mt. 10:30), will look farther for the cause, and hold that all events whatsoever are governed by the secret counsel of God.

The Institutes of the Christian Religion
John Calvin
Book 1
Chapter 16
Paragraph 2



3. And truly God claims omnipotence to himself, and would have us to acknowledge it,--not the vain, indolent, slumbering omnipotence which sophists feign, but vigilant, efficacious, energetic, and ever active,--not an omnipotence which may only act as a general principle of confused motion, as in ordering a stream to keep within the channel once prescribed to it, but one which is intent on individual and special movements. God is deemed omnipotent, not because he can act though he may cease or be idle, or because by a general instinct he continues the order of nature previously appointed; but because, governing heaven and earth by his providence, he so overrules all things that nothing happens without his counsel.

Book 1
Chapter 16
Paragraph 3


Were not men predestinated by the ordination of God to that corruption which is now held forth as the cause of condemnation? If so, when they perish in their corruptions they do nothing else than suffer punishment for that calamity, into which, by the predestination of God, Adam fell, and dragged all his posterity headlong with him. Is not he, therefore, unjust in thus cruelly mocking his creatures? I admit that by the will of God all the sons of Adam fell into that state of wretchedness in which they are now involved; and this is just what I said at the first, that we must always return to the mere pleasure of the divine will, the cause of which is hidden in himself. But it does not forthwith follow that God lies open to this charge. For we will answer with Paul in these words, "Nay but, O man, who art thou that replies against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Has not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?"

Book 3
Chapter 23
Paragraph 4


John Piper agrees:
www.desiringgod.org

Does It Make God Evil to Ordain Evil?

Pastor John explains God's sovereignty over evil acts without himself being evil.
www.desiringgod.org www.desiringgod.org
 
GodsGrace said:
RB,,,I tire of having to explain to Calvinists what they believe.
If you want to be a calvinist...learn what they believe....

God created everything.
Everything.
God decrees everything.
Everything.


we must consider that the Providence of God, as taught in Scripture, is opposed to fortune and fortuitous causes. By an erroneous opinion prevailing in all ages, an opinion almost universally prevailing in our own day--viz. that all things happen fortuitously, the true doctrine of Providence has not only been obscured, but almost buried. If one falls among robbers, or ravenous beasts; if a sudden gust of wind at sea causes shipwreck; if one is struck down by the fall of a house or a tree; if another, when wandering through desert paths, meets with deliverance; or, after being tossed by the waves, arrives in port, and makes some wondrous hair-breadth escape from death--all these occurrences, prosperous as well as adverse, carnal sense will attribute to fortune. But whose has learned from the mouth of Christ that all the hairs of his head are numbered (Mt. 10:30), will look farther for the cause, and hold that all events whatsoever are governed by the secret counsel of God.

The Institutes of the Christian Religion
John Calvin
Book 1
Chapter 16
Paragraph 2



3. And truly God claims omnipotence to himself, and would have us to acknowledge it,--not the vain, indolent, slumbering omnipotence which sophists feign, but vigilant, efficacious, energetic, and ever active,--not an omnipotence which may only act as a general principle of confused motion, as in ordering a stream to keep within the channel once prescribed to it, but one which is intent on individual and special movements. God is deemed omnipotent, not because he can act though he may cease or be idle, or because by a general instinct he continues the order of nature previously appointed; but because, governing heaven and earth by his providence, he so overrules all things that nothing happens without his counsel.

Book 1
Chapter 16
Paragraph 3


Were not men predestinated by the ordination of God to that corruption which is now held forth as the cause of condemnation? If so, when they perish in their corruptions they do nothing else than suffer punishment for that calamity, into which, by the predestination of God, Adam fell, and dragged all his posterity headlong with him. Is not he, therefore, unjust in thus cruelly mocking his creatures? I admit that by the will of God all the sons of Adam fell into that state of wretchedness in which they are now involved; and this is just what I said at the first, that we must always return to the mere pleasure of the divine will, the cause of which is hidden in himself. But it does not forthwith follow that God lies open to this charge. For we will answer with Paul in these words, "Nay but, O man, who art thou that replies against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Has not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?"

Book 3
Chapter 23
Paragraph 4


John Piper agrees:
www.desiringgod.org

Does It Make God Evil to Ordain Evil?

Pastor John explains God's sovereignty over evil acts without himself being evil.
www.desiringgod.org www.desiringgod.org
Click to expand...
I use to correct many Calvinists when I was one and still find myself correcting many of them as a non Calvinist now.
 
Kermos said:
And, Romans 9 has to be in sync with Genesis 1:1, so all of Genesis 1:1 and Romans 1:28-32 and Romans 1:24 and Romans 1:20 and Romans 1:5-7 must sync in the Truth (John 14:6) that Holy Spirit inspired Paul wrote in Romans chapter 9.

God's Sovereign control over Jew and Gentile (Romans 1:5-7), even over reprobates (Romans 1:24) as you put it, reveals that God sovereignly controls the entirety of His creation (Genesis 1:1) as the Potter who prepared beforehand vessels of mercy (Romans 9:23), and Holy Scripture reveals further that vessels of wrath (Romans 9:22), including pharaoh (Romans 9:17), are not prepared beforehand to be vessels of mercy.

You wrote "A person (pharaoh included) does not become a reprobate or vessel of wrath easily, only after God's enduring patience after having zillion of chances to repent" by which you convey that you wholeheartedly believe that "A person (pharaoh included) is a vessel of mercy before the person is a vessel of wrath having exhausted God's enduring patience with a zillion of chances to repent"; therefore, you disbelieve:
  • "it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as seed" (Romans 9:8) and
  • "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad - in order that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of him who calls - she was told, 'The older will serve the younger.' As it is written, 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.'" (Romans 9:11-13) and
  • "sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men" (Romans 5:12) and "many died through one man's trespass" (Romans 5:15) and climacticly
  • "No one is good except God alone (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 10:18, see also Romans 3:12)) thus a person is an evil vessel of wrath as the default state of being apart from God and the only Way (John 14:6) for a person to become a vessel of mercy is caused by Lord Jesus Christ for He declares "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father except because of Me" (John 14:6) - the Author and Perfecter of the Faith (Hebrews 12/2)!

Also, you wrote "pharaoh had many chances, he saw (experienced) God's miracles but hardened his heart every time." which requires deeper examination:
​
You wrote "pharaoh had many chances", but pharaoh did not choose God.​
​
You wrote "he saw (experienced) God's miracles" - in like fashion free-willians have the Holy Scripture in their hands, but pharaoh did not choose God.​
​
You wrote "he hardened his heart every time" (both he and his referring to pharaoh), yet your thoughts starkly contrast against Holy Spirit inspired Apostle Paul writing that God hardened pharaoh's heart with "For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then He has mercy on whom He wills, and He hardens whom He wills" (Romans 9:17-18).​
​
The 3 of you (@GodsGrace and @Johann for your hearty approval to @ProDeo (Romans 1:32)) do the work that you do, that is, downgrading the Sovereign Holy God identified in (Romans 9:18-23) as per your heart's treasure (Matthew 15:16-19, Matthew 6:21), at your own peril!

Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE SOVEREIGN POTTER!!!
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You keep posting Matthew 15:9

How do you understand that to support your idea that man has no free will?



And regarding Romans 9....

Romans 9:30-33 kills any teaching you may have heard regarding Romans 9 somehow supporting Calvinism.
It DOES NOT.

Romans 9:30-33
30 What does all this mean? Even though the Gentiles were not trying to follow God’s standards, they were made right with God. And it was by faith that this took place.

31 But the people of Israel, who tried so hard to get right with God by keeping the law, never succeeded.

32 Why not? Because they were trying to get right with God by keeping the law instead of by trusting in him. They stumbled over the great rock in their path.

33 God warned them of this in the Scriptures when he said, “I am placing a stone in Jerusalem that makes people stumble, a rock that makes them fall. But anyone who trusts in him will never be disgraced.”


In Romans Paul explains very well what he is saying in the rest of 9 which comes before.

Verse 30 Gentiles were made right with God by faith.

Verse 31 Those that tried to get right with the Law never succeeded.

Verse 32 The way to get right with God is by trusting Him.
Instead they stumbled over Jesus.

Verse 33 They stumbled over the stumbling stone....Jesus...
instead of trusting Him.

Nowhere in the above does it state that man is saved by irresistible grace.
Nowhere in the NT does it state that man is saved by irresistible grace.

It DOES state that man is saved by FAITH....
and by TRUSTING in Jesus.
 
Kermos said:
Behold, your faith's work of "Yawn" at the beautifully loving "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) and “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) and “It is the Spirit who gives Life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and are Life” (John 6:63).

Despite the Word of God's declaration of the divine nature as revealed above stating God's exclusive choosing, you convey that you believe without your choosing toward God that you would be under punishment from God instead of pleasure, so you believe buy your way into heaven with your fleshly free-will faith payment in your "apart from Christ, I chose to believe in Christ so Christ must profit me with salvation".

This is also to @ProDeo and @GodsGrace because of your work to "Like" @Eternally-Grateful's post.

You ask "why are you boasting", and I answer (unlike you who hides from the inquiry of post #8,808) with my brother Paul "far be it from me to boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world" (Galatians 6:14).

You boast in your fleshly "apart from Christ, I chose to believe in Christ so Christ must profit me with salvation", yet I boast in Christ and Christ's work.
Click to expand...
How is OBEDIENCE to Jesus.....
boasting of myself?

Here is what James, an Apostle of Jesus, said:

James 1:22
22 But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.
Be DOERS of the word....
and NOT ONLY HEARERS
who DELUDE THEMSELVES.
If we are not DOERS, we delude ourselves.
And to whom is James speaking?

James 1:2
2 Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials,

James was addressing his fellow believers.

He was telling BORN AGAIN believers that they must be DOERS of the word.

DOERS of the word are obedient to Jesus' message and that of all the writers.
 
Red Baker said:
@GodsGrace

I have never said that ~but, I will say, our obedience has not one thing to do with our salvation from sin and condemnation, not one jot or tittle! All of God's children said...AMEN and AMEN.

I'll come back in morning and answer all of your post to me. It's getting close to your bed time and I do not want to disturb your sleep~ :)
Click to expand...
I do believe, RB, that obedience has everything to do with our salvation.

Here's why:

JESUS taught:

John 15:1-2
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.


Every branch IN ME......this is a believer. A believer is IN CHRIST.
That does NOT bear fruit....God Father takes away.

God REMOVES all branches that do not bear fruit.

That sounds to me like we are to obey God's commands...
we must be obedient to God.
 
Selah said:
Hi.
What made you turn away from Calvinism, if I may ask? You don’t need to answer if you’d rather not. Bless you, brother.
Click to expand...
This thread was the reason as I began questioning what I was taught about the Tri-Unity of God regarding the penal substitution atonement theory. Once my study led me out of that doctrine I started questioning TULIP as well. After looking at it objectively I was able to see the errors in that as well.

I’m still studying and adding to this document on PSA below.

civic

Thread 'The Nature of God in the Atonement'

Link removed and posted below.

The above is to long to post here it would be 5/6 separate posts. I might break it up in sections below.
  • Like
 
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civic said:
This thread was the reason as I began questioning what I was taught about the Tri-Unity of God regarding the penal substitution atonement theory. Once my study led me out of that doctrine I started questioning TULIP as well. After looking at it objectively I was able to see the errors in that as well.

I’m still studying and adding to this document on PSA below.

civic

Thread 'The Nature of God in the Atonement'

Link removed and posted below.

The above is to long to post here it would be 5/6 separate posts. I might break it up in sections below.
  • Like
Click to expand...
I just went over and read a bit and it's a great thread!
Really planning on reading all 7 posts of the OP.

What I can't understand is the illogical system of reformed/calvinist theology.
I've said many times how inconsitent it is, how it causes so many conflicts within scripture.

I can't understand how someone cannot see these inconsistencises, which I point out all the time.
I know using scripture is the best method in any discussion, and I do this too,,,,
but sometimes I just have to stop and point out the conflict instead.

HOW could it be so obvious and yet not understood?
RC Sproul went into calvinism kicking and screaming.
He had a reason...it was going to be his future and he was already involved...way too deep in.

How does a regular "normal" person get dragged into this belief system?
This might make a good thread...
 
Kermos said:
“you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) and “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) and “It is the Spirit who gives Life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and are Life” (John 6:63).
Click to expand...
In the verse below, Jesus is specifically talking to John.
John 15:16 (NKJV) “You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.​

Without a doubt, John and the other apostles were elected by God before the foundation of the world. Notice that Jesus didn't ask John if he wanted to follow Him. No. "Follow Me," Jesus said. And John did.

We need to understand that the Spirit of God (the Holy Spirit) has placed the desire in the hearts of all the elect to answer the call of Jesus when it comes; but our Savior sacrificed His life for the lowest of humanity because He loves the whole world, both the "elect" and those with "free will" equally. Jesus desires for the whole world to believe in Him and be saved, as John 3:16 says.

Selah

FYI … I am not a Calvinist.
 
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Selah said:
In the verse below, Jesus is specifically talking to John.
John 15:16 (NKJV) “You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.​

Without a doubt, John and the other apostles were elected by God before the foundation of the world. Notice that Jesus didn't ask John if he wanted to follow Him. No, "Follow Me," He said. And he did.

We need to understand that the Spirit of God (the Holy Spirit) has placed the desire in the hearts of all the elect to answer the call of Jesus when it comes; but our Savior sacrificed His life for the lowest of humanity because He loves the whole world, both the "elect" and those with "free will" equally. Jesus desires for the whole world to believe in Him and be saved, as John 3:16 says.

Selah

FYI … I am not a Calvinist.
Click to expand...
When you use the term "His elect" you do use the language of calvinism.

It would be interesting to know what you mean by that term....
 
GodsGrace said:
I know Selah.

What does it mean to You?
Click to expand...
What does it mean to me? …that election is true; some were chosen for a special purpose. Were you? Was I? Did we answer His call? I don’t have all the answers; none of us do. But I do believe what our Father in heaven tells us in His Book.
 
Selah said:
What does it mean to me? …that election is true; some were chosen for a special purpose. Were you? Was I? Did we answer His call? I don’t have all the answers; none of us do. But I do believe what our Father in heaven tells us in His Book.
Click to expand...
Almost 1 30 am here.
This is an interesting convo...
Can we continue in my AM?
'Night
 
GodsGrace said:
I just went over and read a bit and it's a great thread!
Really planning on reading all 7 posts of the OP.

What I can't understand is the illogical system of reformed/calvinist theology.
I've said many times how inconsitent it is, how it causes so many conflicts within scripture.

I can't understand how someone cannot see these inconsistencises, which I point out all the time.
I know using scripture is the best method in any discussion, and I do this too,,,,
but sometimes I just have to stop and point out the conflict instead.

HOW could it be so obvious and yet not understood?
RC Sproul went into calvinism kicking and screaming.
He had a reason...it was going to be his future and he was already involved...way too deep in.

How does a regular "normal" person get dragged into this belief system?
This might make a good thread...
Click to expand...
Early on in my Christian life I liked listening to John MacArthur and I was heavily influenced by him and his books, and I was going to a Dutch reformed church and the pastor took me under his wings.
 

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