civic
Well-known member
Salvific faith / belief is not a work but faithfulness is a fruit of the spirit in the believers life.
An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
Johann
Well-known member
Correct-
“Salvific faith/belief is not a work” – This aligns with Ephesians 2:8–9, “For by grace you have been saved through faith... not of works, lest any man should boast.” Faith is the means of receiving grace, not a meritorious act.
“...but faithfulness is a fruit of the Spirit in the believer’s life” – This reflects Galatians 5:22–23, where πίστις (pistis) is listed among the fruit of the Spirit, commonly rendered “faithfulness” in the sense of ongoing trust and fidelity.
Thus-
Salvific faith = initial, responsive trust in Christ, not meritorious (John 3:16; Rom 3:28)
Spiritual faithfulness = Spirit-wrought character of the regenerate life (Gal 5:22)
J.
John 6:27 Do not labor for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal." :28 Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."
Johann
Well-known member
John 6:29 calls belief the “work of God” not as a meritorious deed of man, but as the divinely appointed means of receiving life—not something earned, but something required. Faith is not a work we offer to God, but the response He commands (John 3:16; Rom 4:5), distinguished from works of the law (Eph 2:8–9; Rom 3:28).
J.
Verse 29, which I included, pretty much rebuts your explanation.
As is so often the case, when Paul speaks about salvation being not about works, the works he is talking about is not simply something that we do; rather he is speaking about works of law. Faith, believing in God, is not a work of law. It is a condition upon which God identifies whom He saves (Mark 16:16; John 3:15,16.18,36; 5:24; 6:35,47; 11;25; etc.)
The definition of "work" is very flexible. We have to be very careful in how we definite it within the context it is being used. So you have the definition of work that you have to contend with, compounded by the context it is found in, compounded by the fact that it is translated from Greek. The reformers came up with some of the most idiotic ideas imaginable about work because they were too quick to throw stones at the prevailing churches at that time, no matter how justified the reformers were to do so.
Johann
Well-known member
John 6:29 says, “This is the work of God: that you believe (πιστεύητε) in Him whom He has sent.”
The Greek verb πιστεύητε (present active subjunctive, 2nd person plural of πιστεύω) shows it is a commanded, ongoing trust-not a meritorious deed.
Jesus contrasts works (ἔργα, v.28) with one singular “work” God requires: faith in the sent One, not effort-based religion.
Romans 4:5 confirms this: “To the one who does not work but believes (πιστεύοντι)... his faith is credited as righteousness.”
Faith and works are opposed as categories-faith is not earned merit, but God-appointed trust.
So John 6:29 does not refute scriptural explanation-it reinforces it: belief is the “work” God requires, not the work man performs.
6:28 "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God" This was the central religious question of first century Judaism (cf. Luke 18:18). The religious Jew was assumed to be right with God based on
his lineage
his performance of the Mosaic Law as it was interpreted by the Oral Tradition (Talmud)
J.
Last edited:
Who performs the work of belief?
civic
Well-known member
God requires belief/ faith. Always has in the OT as He does in the NT. Hebrews 11 makes it clear. Believing is mans responsibility to Gods drawing , conviction of the Holy Spirit. God does not believe for us. Jesus numerous times taught this truth.
Here is how some would rewrite Jesus words below and add to scripture things that were never said nor implied.
Parenthesis is Calvinism false assertion below that God gives faith. Jesus said it was THEIR faith that saved them.
Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith ( I have given you )hath saved thee; go in peace.
Luke 8:48
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith ( I have given you )has healed you. Go in peace."
Luke 17:19
Then Jesus said to him, "Rise and go; your faith( I have given you ) has made you well!"
Luke 18:42
"Receive your sight!" Jesus replied. "Your faith( I have give you ) has healed you."
Matthew 8:10
When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.
Matthew 8:13
Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! As you have believed, so will it be done for you." And his servant was healed at that very hour.
Matthew 9:2
Just then some men brought to Him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.
Matthew 9:22
Jesus turned and saw her. "Take courage, daughter," He said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was cured from that very hour.
Matthew 9:29
Then He touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you."
Matthew 15:28
"O woman," Jesus answered, "your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
Mark 5:34
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be free of your affliction."
Mark 10:52
"Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.
John 4:53
So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.
Johann
Well-known member
Man performs the act of believing-but it is not a meritorious work; it is the response God commands (Acts 16:31; John 3:16).
Jesus says, “This is the work of God, that you believe” (John 6:29)--the genitive τοῦ θεοῦ can indicate source, origin, or requirement.
In context, it means the belief God requires, not that God believes for man.
Romans 10:10 – “With the heart man believes (πιστεύεται) unto righteousness...”
The subject of belief is man--God doesn't believe on man's behalf.
But Philippians 1:29 shows faith is also graciously granted:
“To you it has been granted... to believe in Him...” – ἐχαρίσθη (has been graciously given).
So.. man believes, as commanded, but the capacity to do so is offered by God..not forced, not automatic, and not meritorious.
J.
Johann
Well-known member
You are correct, however... there appears to be a great deal of confusion surrounding John 6-particularly concerning its recipients and the context-because much of the interpretation relies on isolated proof texting. I’m not saying you are doing this, but the passage is often lifted from its covenantal and historical setting, which leads to distorted conclusions.
That, and I am not your most popular guy here. So what I say, take it with a grain of salt.
You're exactly right that faith is man's response, and Jesus never says, “I gave you faith” in any of those passages. In each case, He explicitly says, “Your faith has saved/healed you” (ἡ πίστις σου σέσωκέν σε / σέσωκέ σε). The possessive pronoun σου (“your”) makes clear that the individual believed, not that Jesus exercised faith on their behalf.
This aligns with Hebrews 11:6, which affirms: “Without faith it is impossible to please God...” and makes faith the necessary human response, not an irresistible act imposed by God.
Furthermore, in Romans 10:17, Paul says, “So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.”
Faith comes (ἔρχεται) as a response to divine truth...not as a secret implant by God.
Nowhere in the Gospels does Jesus attribute a person's faith to something He secretly placed in them; He honors their response....the trust they exercised.
You are right to say that belief is man's responsibility to God's drawing and conviction (John 12:32; Acts 24:25).
Even Philippians 1:29, often misused, speaks of God graciously appointing the opportunity....but it does not say God believes for anyone.
That said--let's look at other passages.
Romans 12:3 – “God has dealt to each a measure of faith”
Greek: “ἑκάστῳ ὡς ὁ Θεὸς ἐμέρισεν μέτρον πίστεως”
ἐμέρισεν (aorist active indicative of μερίζω, "to distribute, apportion")
This refers to believers and the faith within the Body of Christ to serve (see context: Rom 12:1–8).It is a multifaceted faith, but rather a functional gift for ministry, like prophecy, teaching, or exhortation (vv.6–8).
5) "According as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith," (hekasto hos ho theos emerisen metron pisteos) Humility should characterize the behavior of every Christian and church member, without regards to his talents or gifts of faith and grace. For none in Christ has occasion in himself to boast, 1Co_3:10; 1Co_12:7-9; 1Co_12:11; Grace and faith are given by Christ to every person, according to his need, Php_4:19. Grace, faith, and positions of responsibility are given to each for service use to his fellowman, 1Co_9:22-23.
A measure of faith (metron pisteōs). Accusative case, the object of the verb emerisen. Each has his gift from God (1Co_3:5; 1Co_4:7). There is no occasion for undue pride.
Robertson
2. Ephesians 2:8 – “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves...”
Greek: “τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ πίστεως· καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν”
Here, “this” (τοῦτο) is neuter, while “faith” (πίστεως) is feminine, meaning τοῦτο cannot refer specifically to “faith.”
.... Rather, the entire process of salvation by grace through faith is the gift...not the faith in isolation.
Thus, faith is not infused irresistibly, but part of the gracious provision made available by God’s gospel.
3. Faith Comes Through Hearing (Romans 10:17)
“So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.”
ἔρχεται (present middle indicative of ἔρχομαι, "comes, arises")
This shows faith is generated in man through response to God's spoken word...not dropped into the soul unilaterally.
4. God Enables, Man Responds
John 1:9 – “He was the true Light which gives light to every man...”
Acts 17:27 – “That they should seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him...”
God's role is to initiate, man's is to respond. Faith arises when the heart hears and chooses to trust.
Yes, God graciously makes faith possible (Rom 10:17; John 1:9), and He apportions measures of faith for service (Rom 12:3),
but salvific belief remains man's commanded response (Mark 1:15; John 3:16; Acts 16:31).
God initiates, man must believe....and nowhere does Scripture say God believes for us or irresistibly implants faith.
But the unified testimony of Scripture reveals that humanity, when left to its own inclination, does not willingly come to the light, lest their deeds be exposed... and this is consistently affirmed in the Pauline corpus as well.
Shalom.
J.
civic
Well-known member
I think we are on the same page here with 2 distinct groups regarding faith .
1-.Lost person-God requires faith to be saved for the sinner
2- saved person- God gives faith to the believer , it’s a fruit of the spirit hence it’s given to every born again believer
hope this helps !!!
Johann
Well-known member
We are.
For the lost: God commands all to believe for salvation...faith is man’s response to divine revelation (Acts 17:30; John 3:16; Romans 10:9).
For the saved-- Faith as fruit (Gal 5:22) and gift (Rom 12:3; 1 Cor 12:9) is operative within the believer’s life by the Spirit...not for salvation, but for sanctification/holiness and service.
J.
GodsGrace
Well-known member
Hi Selah...
To the Faith Only crowd...
Everything is a work!
Including belief and including faith.
Which is not a biblical teaching.
Paul taught that faith is NOT a work.
And how could BELIEVE be a work when we're told to Believe in Jesus and you will be saved....
If God COMMANDS something, it is not a work....
but it is obedience to the God that saved us.
We obey by faith.
It is a righteous work...
a righteous work is a work that is
RIGHT WITH GOD....which is what righteous means.
Some believe that any good deed we do gives glory to US.
No. The good deeds we do for God give glory to God.
I think this is a very important topic which is why it's one of the few I address.
GodsGrace
Well-known member
Right on synergy.
So let's describe works....
A work of the Law and works are totally different.
We are no longer under works of the Law.
Under the Mosaic Covenant man strived to be a good person and to do good.
The Holy Spirit has always existed, but He did not dwell with persons.
They did not have the POWER to live the life God would have wanted.
There was no change of heart...
Thus Ezekiel and Jeremiah....I will give you a new heart....a heart of flesh.
My understanding is that AFTER we become saved, we will be required to do good deeds...
works of faith...faith in God leading us to good works....a labor of love.
I'd say that, yes, this is a good combination.
So we do good deeds/works because the Holy Spirit does empower us to do them.
Doing them for God gives us the strength for the good work because of our love for Jesus.
But we also have to understand that God commands us to do them...
He expects us to do them.
It's for holiness and sanctifiction as @Johann just stated,,,,
but what if we stop wanting to be sanctified?
It's like James said.
A faith without works is a dead faith.
A dead faith leads to a dead spirit.
It would be nice to know what others believe on this, I think, crucial subject.
GodsGrace
Well-known member
What answer EG?
Free will is not the answer.
Of course he had free will.
Why did he CHOOSE to disobey God?
Adam sinned.
He sinned BEFORE he ate the fruit.
What made him sin if he knew no evil?
The tree of the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil.
GodsGrace
Well-known member
I don't agree...as you know.
James made a point.
It was simple.
We should accept it as he meant it AT THE TIME.
James was speaking about believers....
if one HAS FAITH.....a believer...
BUT DOES NOT HAVE WORKS......the BELIEVER does not have works....
John 15:1-2a
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;
Every branch IN ME ---- a believer
That does Not bear fruit-----the believer is not bearing fruit....
The Father takes away.
too tired...
'night
GodsGrace
Well-known member
We have one nature EG.
It's human.
The human nature.
It became tainted by sin.
Let's call it something different...
concpiscense.
We still have our human nature...
but now it has this concupiscense in it.
But the Holy Spirit keeps the concupiscense under control after
we become born again and He dwells within us.
