An Article on free will

[ProDeo]

If he could not fail at any chance, then he could not sin, hence he could not be tempted.

hence he does not know what we go through. And his sacrifice is in effect invalid.

He was tempted but did not fail.

Example -

Matt 16:22 And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, saying, “Far be it from you, Lord! This shall never happen to you.”

Matt 16:23 But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.”

Peter, playing the (quite natural and well meant) emotional card and noticed the sharp rebuke.

 

[Jim]

back to this

I am talking to a wall..

You are the wall.

if you are here to defeat calvinism. you are wasting your time talking to me.

I am not even trying to defeat Calvinism. I am only trying to give my interpretation of some passages in the Bible.

 

[synergy]

Where do we find the one-third ?

I would say it's in Rev 12:4 where Satan drew a third of all angels down into Earth:

(Rev 12:4) And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them onto the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman being about to bear, so that when she bears he might devour her child.

 

[ProDeo]

Paul keeps fighting even after being saved. See below. So you're telling me that you know better than Paul?

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.
22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

That, and also -

Hebr 12:4 - In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.

 

[ProDeo]

I would say it's in Rev 12:4 where Satan drew a third of all angels down into Earth:

(Rev 12:4) And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them onto the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman being about to bear, so that when she bears he might devour her child.

Thanks.

Lots of symbolism in that chapter.

 

[Selah]

Where do we find the one-third ?

Well, the "stars" in Revelation 12:4 may symbolize Satan's "angels" in verse 9, referring to the fall of a portion of the heavenly hosts who followed Satan in his rebellion.

Revelation 12:3-4 (NKJV) 3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born.

Revelation 12:9 (NKJV) So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

 

[Johann]

No, but I have read from a lot of commentarians. And guess what. They all will make the same declaration as you.

All of that is just an attempt to justify your false belief in original sin.

Guess we are all "morally good" people.

J.

 

[Red Baker]

@Eternally-Grateful

Ah,,

your fishing in the wrong direction my friend. I am not going to play your game.

I care what God thinks, not what you think

Not fishing, but to prove you truly do not believe what you think you believe ~ you have works in your understanding of the gospel, maybe not to the same degree as @synergy, who does not hide behind what he believe to the same degree as you do, his name tells you what he believes in~co-partners with Christ in his salvation from sin and condemnation, he makes no bones about what he believes. I have read both of your posits the last couple of days, and it is nothing more than Pharisees arguing with the Sadducees

Now, that being said, I do not believe folks like you are purposely disguising the gospel of pure grace, but, nevertheless you are not preaching pure grace. I did not put on this armour last week, but have fought the good fight of faith since the early seventies, and have met your kinds on the battlefield a few times~very hard to convince them that their understanding of grace, is not grace, but laboring to mixed both works and grace. They will not mixed no more than water and oil will,

Romans 11:5​

“Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.”

Paul dealt with the same people as we do in our days, laboring to mix grace and works together to make it seems they are teachers of the grace of God, when in truth, they are not.

 

[Red Baker]

@synergy

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
James 2:22 Do you see how faith worked with his works, and from the works faith was made complete?

Amazing how faith and good works are an integral part of Abraham's Justification!

What is amazing is men like you prevert scriptures by not laboring to give them their proper sense, but uses them to support their false gospel, as you are doing, which does not surprise me.

James 2:24​

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”

"Ye see then how"~Yes Lord I see how, by the power of the new man within me, I see, and thank you blessed God that I do see! I see then how that by works a man is justified ~it is very clear that works Not as causes procuring my justification, but as effects declaring it, (without which there is no evidence of one's salvation); for the best works are imperfect of the most holy saints, and cannot be a righteousness justifying in the sight of God, and are unprofitable in this respect; for when they are performed in the best manner, they are no other than what it is a man's duty to perform, and are mixed with sin, even our prayers, sad to say, and therefore cannot legally justy us from sin that we have committed: and besides, justification in this sense would frustrate the grace of God, make void the death of Christ, and encourage boasting in men. God forbid.

Please note: Good works do not go before justification as causes or conditions, but follow it as fruits and effect and evidences of the grace of God toward one that professes.

 

[synergy]

@Eternally-Grateful

Not fishing, but to prove you truly do not believe what you think you believe ~ you have works in your understanding of the gospel, maybe not to the same degree as @synergy, who does not hide behind what he believe to the same degree as you do, his name tells you what he believes in~co-partners with Christ in his salvation from sin and condemnation, he makes no bones about what he believes. I have read both of your posits the last couple of days, and it is nothing more than Pharisees arguing with the Sadducees

Never once did I ever call myself s "co-partner" with Christ. I use the term synergy in the same sense that the Apostles called themselves Synergists (συνεργοι or συνεργουντος) in Mark 16:20 and 1 Cor 3:9.

In Mark 16:20, the Greek words του κυριου συνεργουντος translate to Lord’s Synergists/Fellow Workers and in 1 Cor 3:9 the Greek words συνεργοι θεου translate to God’s Synergists/Fellow Workers.

(Mark 16:20) εκεινοι δε εξελθοντες εκηρυξαν πανταχου του κυριου συνεργουντος (Lord’s Synergists/Fellow Workers) και τον λογον βεβαιουντος δια των επακολουθουντων σημειων σημειων αμην

(1 Cor 3:9) θεου γαρ εσμεν συνεργοι θεου (God’s Synergists/Fellow Workers) γεωργιον θεου οικοδομη εστε

So stop with the strawman misrepresentations.

Now, that being said, I do not believe folks like you are purposely disguising the gospel of pure grace, but, nevertheless you are not preaching pure grace. I did not put on this armour last week, but have fought the good fight of faith since the early seventies, and have met your kinds on the battlefield a few times~very hard to convince them that their understanding of grace, is not grace, but laboring to mixed both works and grace. They will not mixed no more than water and oil will,

Romans 11:5​

“Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.”

Paul dealt with the same people as we do in our days, laboring to mix grace and works together to make it seems they are teachers of the grace of God, when in truth, they are not.

So now you want to change the subject of the conversation to Grace. Nobody is belittling God's Grace here. Everything good comes from God such as our minds, talents, conscience, heart, will, etc... I could go on and on about what God has gifted us with but you get the point. I'm sure you agree with that so far. So I naturally give God all the glory for all that he has gifted and entrusted us with. Now all that has to be responsibly handled by us through proper employment of our minds, talents, conscience, heart, will, etc... Proper usage of our God-given minds gives us the ability to hear God's word and to act on it. That's what Rom 10:8-13 is all about. By hearing, believing, and acting upon what the word of God says, God promises to seal us with the Holy Spirit (Regeneration), and to predestine us into being conformed into images of Christ. Even the works that we do are preordained by God so there's no boasting there either. See Eph 2:10.

 

[Johann]

@synergy

What is amazing is men like you prevert scriptures by not laboring to give them their proper sense, but uses them to support their false gospel, as you are doing, which does not surprise me.

James 2:24​

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”

"Ye see then how"~Yes Lord I see how, by the power of the new man within me, I see, and thank you blessed God that I do see! I see then how that by works a man is justified ~it is very clear that works Not as causes procuring my justification, but as effects declaring it, (without which there is no evidence of one's salvation); for the best works are imperfect of the most holy saints, and cannot be a righteousness justifying in the sight of God, and are unprofitable in this respect; for when they are performed in the best manner, they are no other than what it is a man's duty to perform, and are mixed with sin, even our prayers, sad to say, and therefore cannot legally justy us from sin that we have committed: and besides, justification in this sense would frustrate the grace of God, make void the death of Christ, and encourage boasting in men. God forbid.

Please note: Good works do not go before justification as causes or conditions, but follow it as fruits and effect and evidences of the grace of God toward one that professes.

We are not co-partners or co-workers with God in the sense that He needs us--God is completely self-sufficient and independent. As Isaiah 40:28 says, "Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the Lord, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding."

God does not rely on us; rather, we are entirely dependent on Him.

As Acts 17:25 affirms, "Neither is worshiped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things."

God does not need us to fulfill His purposes--He is sovereign, and His will is accomplished regardless of our participation.

In fact, John 15:5 makes it clear: "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." We need God, not the other way around.

While we are called to cooperate with God in His work, this cooperation is not out of necessity for God's plan but is a gracious privilege extended to us.

As Philippians 2:13 teaches, "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

It is God who enables us to act, not because He needs us, but because of His grace and mercy. We must always remember that God’s work is not contingent upon us--Romans 11:36 reminds us, "For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen."

In summary, God does not need us--we are dispensable; rather, we are completely dependent on His grace for our existence and participation in His divine plan.

J.

 

[synergy]

@synergy

What is amazing is men like you prevert scriptures by not laboring to give them their proper sense, but uses them to support their false gospel, as you are doing, which does not surprise me.

James 2:24​

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”

"Ye see then how"~Yes Lord I see how, by the power of the new man within me, I see, and thank you blessed God that I do see! I see then how that by works a man is justified ~it is very clear that works Not as causes procuring my justification, but as effects declaring it, (without which there is no evidence of one's salvation); for the best works are imperfect of the most holy saints, and cannot be a righteousness justifying in the sight of God, and are unprofitable in this respect; for when they are performed in the best manner, they are no other than what it is a man's duty to perform, and are mixed with sin, even our prayers, sad to say, and therefore cannot legally justy us from sin that we have committed: and besides, justification in this sense would frustrate the grace of God, make void the death of Christ, and encourage boasting in men. God forbid.

Please note: Good works do not go before justification as causes or conditions, but follow it as fruits and effect and evidences of the grace of God toward one that professes.

How can faithful good works be faithful without faith? Of course faith is the basis of faithful good works. Nobody here is trying to separate works from faith and to present works by themselves, stripped of faith. That's why you will see sometimes the term "works of faith" in the Bible. The association between faith and faithful good works is unmistakeable. So do tell us, how is what I promote a "perversion" as you gloated?

So then do you agree with James 2:24 that man is justified by God by faith plus faithful good works together?

 

[Jim]

Guess we are all "morally good" people.

J.

Until you sin, yes.

 

[Johann]

How can faithful good works be faithful without faith? Of course faith is the basis of faithful good works. Nobody here is trying to separate works from faith and to present works by themselves, stripped of faith. That's why you will see sometimes the term "works of faith" in the Bible. The association between faith and faithful good works is unmistakeable. So do tell us, how is what I promote a "perversion" as you gloated?

So then do you agree with James 2:24 that man is justified by God by faith plus faithful good works together?

Paul – Romans 4:3 (KJV):
“For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.”

Citing: Genesis 15:6 – “And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.”

James – James 2:21–24 (KJV):
“Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”

Citing: Genesis 22:9–12 (Isaac’s offering) along with Genesis 15:6 (as in Paul)

Show them Genesis 15 and Genesis 22... brother, what most don’t realize is that we often fall into “proof-texting” to defend our points... and I include myself in this... but the better way is to let the full testimony of Scripture speak for itself... for it is the power of God that convicts, not our debating skill... and these exhausting and unnecessary counterarguments dissolve when we simply yield to what is written.

God bless.

J.

 

[synergy]

Paul – Romans 4:3 (KJV):
“For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.”

Citing: Genesis 15:6 – “And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.”

James – James 2:21–24 (KJV):
“Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”

Citing: Genesis 22:9–12 (Isaac’s offering) along with Genesis 15:6 (as in Paul)

Show them Genesis 15 and Genesis 22... brother, what most don’t realize is that we often fall into “proof-texting” to defend our points... and I include myself in this... but the better way is to let the full testimony of Scripture speak for itself... for it is the power of God that convicts, not our debating skill... and these exhausting and unnecessary counterarguments dissolve when we simply yield to what is written.

God bless.

J.

Good advice. I even gave @Eternally-Grateful an eye test for James 2:24 and so far the results are not in.

 

[Johann]

Good advice. I even gave @Eternally-Grateful an eye test for James 2:24 and so far the results are not in.

I’ve been observing you, brother... and I can see a tremendous depth of potential in you... it's clearly there.

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth...” (Romans 1:16)

J.

 

[synergy]

I’ve been observing you, brother... and I can see a tremendous depth of potential in you... it's clearly there.

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth...” (Romans 1:16)

J.

You are too kind. I'm just a dumb sheep who just follows wherever the Apostles take us. That's something that anyone can do. Whether it's the Apostle's Epistles or the Church Practices they bequeathed to us, I try to follow everything Apostolic, as best as I can. In short, I'm just a dumb sheep that just follows the Apostles.

I told you this several times that you evidently have a great talent for languages which is an invaluable God-given talent for understanding God's Word.

Keep the Faith!

 

[Kermos]

Yawn

Like your brother. You see what you want to see.

God drew me to himself. I became like the tax collector..



Yawn

I am glad you are so proud of yourself.

not of works lest anyone should boast. why are you boasting?

Behold, your faith's work of "Yawn" at the beautifully loving "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) and “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) and “It is the Spirit who gives Life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and are Life” (John 6:63).

Despite the Word of God's declaration of the divine nature as revealed above stating God's exclusive choosing, you convey that you believe without your choosing toward God that you would be under punishment from God instead of pleasure, so you believe buy your way into heaven with your fleshly free-will faith payment in your "apart from Christ, I chose to believe in Christ so Christ must profit me with salvation".

This is also to @ProDeo and @GodsGrace because of your work to "Like" @Eternally-Grateful's post.

You ask "why are you boasting", and I answer (unlike you who hides from the inquiry of post #8,808) with my brother Paul "far be it from me to boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world" (Galatians 6:14).

You boast in your fleshly "apart from Christ, I chose to believe in Christ so Christ must profit me with salvation", yet I boast in Christ and Christ's work.

 

[Selah]

Hi all beloved of the Lord. I’ve got a few sincere questions regarding works.

Is belief considered a work? What about faith? Is that a work?

 

[synergy]

Hi all beloved of the Lord. I’ve got a few sincere questions regarding works.

Is belief considered a work? What about faith? Is that a work?

Depends on what you mean by "work". Is it "works of the Law", "good works", any effort exerted by humans, "work of faith", "labor of love", etc..... ? Is work a combination of the above?

We all need to be clear on our definitions which will eliminate most if not all misconceptions right off the bat.