An Article on free will

[Jim]

@MTMattie @Jim @civic @GodsGrace @synergy @brightfame52 @Kermos @TomL

Jim, that was my point~our works are indeed an evidence that we are born of God, what other evidence are there for us to know? He does not speak to us in an audible voice, or by growing messages on trees for us to pick off and read, etc.

That is one of the signature faults of synergistic regeneration. There is no way to know whether or not you have been born again.

Jim, characteristic of true faith is that it “worketh by love” (Gal. 5:6). It is not inactive, but energetic and show itself by love for others. (James 2) That faith which is “of the operation of God” (Col. 2:12) is a mighty principle of power, diffusing spiritual energy to all the faculties of the soul and enlisting them in the service of God. Faith is a principle of life, by which the Christian lives unto God; a principle of motion, by which he walks to heaven along the highway of holiness; a principle of strength, by which he opposes the flesh, the world, and the Devil.

“Faith in the heart of a Christian is like the salt that was thrown into the corrupt fountain, that made the naughty waters good and the barren land fruitful. Hence it is that there followeth an alteration of life and conversation, and so bringeth forth fruit accordingly: ‘A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good fruit’; which treasure is faith” (John Bunyan in Christian Behaviour).

Where a saving faith is rooted in the heart it grows up and spreads itself in all the branches of obedience, and is filled with the fruits of righteousness. It makes its possessor act for God, and thereby evidences that it is a living thing and not merely a lifeless theory. Even a newborn infant, though it cannot walk and work as a grown man, breathes and cries, moves and sucks, and thereby shows it is alive. So with the one who has been born again; there is a breathing unto God, a crying after Him, a moving toward Him, a clinging to Him. But the infant does not long remain a babe; there is growth, increasing strength, enlarged activity. Nor does the Christian remain stationary: he goes “from strength to strength” (Psalm 84:7).

Jim, observe carefully, faith not only “worketh” but it “worketh by LOVE.” It is at this point that the “works” of the Christian differ from those of the mere religionist.

“The papist works that he may merit heaven. The Pharisee works that he may be applauded, that he may be seen of men, that he may have a good esteem with them. The slave works lest he should be beaten, lest he should be damned. The formalist works that he may stop the mouth of conscience, that will be accusing him, if he does nothing. The ordinary professor works because it is a shame to do nothing where so much is professed. But the true believer works because he loves. This is the principal, if not the only, motive that sets him a-work. If there were no other motive within or without him, yet would he be working for God, acting for Christ, because he loves Him; it is like fire in his bones” (David Clarkson).

All of that is merely wishful thinking on your part, together with serious misinterpretation of some passages of scripture. It is true that faith without works is dead, but there are works without faith. Even Hitler did some good things for some.

In closing:

Jim, of all people you know, that I know that our works have nothing to do with us obtaining eternal life, yet, without works, one profession is no more than what the devils had who trembled around Christ, during his days upon the earth.

And again, you fail to correctly understand the meaning of Paul's words concerning "justified by faith apart from works of the law" (Rom3:27). Not all works are works of the law.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Thanks for calling me a liar J...that's nice.
Makes for a good conversation.

I will make you a father of many nations.
I'm just posting scripture.

Paul also stated that men from all nations would be saved.
Galatians 3:8
8The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.”

The OT is full of passages regarding other nations:
PSALM 67:7, 72:11, 72:17, 82:8, 22:27
ISAIAH 49:6


And I should add... from the NT:
ACTS 4:12
JOHN 3:16
ROMANS 1:16

Are these lies too?

God Himself has designated what behaviors men exhibit that identifies what they are. If someone steals, they are a thief. If someone changes or adds to God's Word, they are a liar. So, let's look at the Scripture and we'll let God define the behavior:

6 Add thou not unto his words,
Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Proverbs 30:6.

In this present instance how do you add to God's Word? By insisting that non-Hebrew Gentiles are included in the Abraham Covenant, a covenant made by God with a man named Abram (the Hebrew).
Here is the Scripture:

12 And they took Lot, Abram’s brother’s son, who dwelt in Sodom, and his goods, and departed.
13 And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner: Genesis 14:12–13.

Not only is the man's name called out but also his family line. In Abram's case he comes from the family of Eber. Scripture proves this with:

10 These are the generations of Shem: Shem was an hundred years old, and begat Arphaxad two years after the flood: 11 And Shem lived after he begat Arphaxad five hundred years, and begat sons and daughters.
12 And Arphaxad lived five and thirty years, and begat Salah:
13 And Arphaxad lived after he begat Salah four hundred and three years, and begat sons and daughters.
14 And Salah lived thirty years, and begat Eber:
15 And Salah lived after he begat Eber four hundred and three years, and begat sons and daughters.
16 And Eber lived four and thirty years, and begat Peleg:
17 And Eber lived after he begat Peleg four hundred and thirty years, and begat sons and daughters.
18 And Peleg lived thirty years, and begat Reu:
19 And Peleg lived after he begat Reu two hundred and nine years, and begat sons and daughters.
20 And Reu lived two and thirty years, and begat Serug:
21 And Reu lived after he begat Serug two hundred and seven years, and begat sons and daughters.
22 And Serug lived thirty years, and begat Nahor:
23 And Serug lived after he begat Nahor two hundred years, and begat sons and daughters.
24 And Nahor lived nine and twenty years, and begat Terah:
25 And Nahor lived after he begat Terah an hundred and nineteen years, and begat sons and daughters.
26 And Terah lived seventy years, and begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran.
Genesis 11:10–26.

The name "Eber" in the KJV Bible (and generally in the Old Testament) comes from the Hebrew word עֵבֶר (ever).
The etymology of ever is rooted in the verb עָבַר (avar), which means "to pass over," "to cross," or "to go beyond." The implication is that the LORD commanded the people to "be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth" and the filling of the earth means to disperse, scatter, and occupy the land/earth. But the descendants of Adam did not obey God and remained together in one spot. In the narrative Genesis 11 opens up as follows:

1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there. Genesis 11:1–2.

The information in these verses indicates that the people as a whole stayed together after the LORD commanded they "fill the earth" or scatter of disperse. Now, follow the text:

3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter.
4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top [may reach] unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. Genesis 11:3–4.

These events are a watershed moment in early history. It identifies a moment that would change the direction of history. It unfolds as follows:

5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech. 8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.
9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.
Genesis 11:5–9.

Beginning at verse ten the LORD then describes the family of Shem, one of Noah's three sons and his descendants. This is important. Although there is a great deal to cover, for space let me just summarize what followed while the earth was one language and one speech. A man named "Salah" did something significant with his family and that is that Salah took his family and separated from the bulk of humanity. He was obedient to the LORD and separated his family from the rest of the Adamites by "crossing over" what is believed to be the Euphrates River to the "other side.", and to commemorate this act he named one of his sons, "Eber" which is defined to mean "crossed over." Therefore, the meaning of the name "Eber" is often interpreted as "the region beyond," "the other side," or "one who crosses over."

Biblical sources and scholars often suggest a connection between the name "Eber" and the term "Hebrew" (עִבְרִי, ivri). It is believed that the term "Hebrew" may have originated from Eber, possibly signifying people who came from "the other side" of the Euphrates River.
In the KJV Bible, "Eber" primarily refers to a significant patriarch who was a great-grandson of Shem (one of Noah's sons) and an ancestor of Abraham. He is considered an important figure in the lineage leading to the Israelites. In Genesis 14:13 the Holy Spirit not only names Abraham but also his family he descended from, and he descends from "Eber."

As I build up to the Abraham Covenant God made, these points in the text should receive due consideration in order to interpret the text and what the Holy Spirit is trying to communicate in these verses. What I do in my study is read the text to understand the history leading up to Abraham and what took place through exegesis of the text as written. And this is what is written:

27 Now these are the generations of Terah: Terah begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran; and Haran begat Lot.
28 And Haran died before his father Terah in the land of his nativity, in Ur of the Chaldees.
29 And Abram and Nahor took them wives: the name of Abram’s wife was Sarai; and the name of Nahor’s wife, Milcah, the daughter of Haran, the father of Milcah, and the father of Iscah.
30 But Sarai was barren; she had no child.
31 And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his son’s son, and Sarai his daughter in law, his son Abram’s wife; and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran, and dwelt there.
32 And the days of Terah were two hundred and five years: and Terah died in Haran.
Genesis 11:27–32.

As I said there is much to cover so let me now prove through the text that as the Holy Spirit is identifying a specific family through which God will reveal His will and begin to develop a relationship with obedient Abram and the covenant of promises that bear his name: the Abrahamic Covenant.

1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. Genesis 12:1–3.

What is meant by "in thee"? It describes the family of Abraham (and Sarai) and the promises God makes to Abraham. "In thee" refers to his seed, the family that God will raise up and make a great nation of people. Yes, that's what the text says. It calls Abraham's future family a "nation." At this point in history the Scripture uses the word "nation" which defined by Strong means "massing" and a population that grows from Abraham's loins, from his seed. "Nations" here in the text cannot mean "Gentile" or "non-Hebrew" but merely a word used to describe a gathering up of a people as a group. The text, again, reads as follows: "and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."

By signifying "in thee" the Holy Spirit is designating a blessing upon Abraham's descendants. It is not identifying people that are not from his family such as the family of Japheth and/or Ham. The LORD is not addressing anyone but Abraham and his family by the words "in thee."
The construction of "in thee" is a prepositional phrase, with "in" as the preposition and "thee" as its object (a pronoun in the objective case). This phrase functions as an adverbial element in the sentence, modifying the verb "be blessed" by indicating the means or the person through whom the blessing will come. In other words, "in thee" refers to Abraham's family that is to "be blessed." In the verses and chapters that follow we see the LORD beginning to make Abraham's name great and his blessing from the LORD multiplying in the years that follow. But there is one thing missing from the equation and that is that Abraham has no children, no one to whom the blessings promised to him of God he has no one to pass his blessings to. In chapter 15 Abraham challenges the LORD with this fact. What good is all these blessings if I cannot pass it on to my family? Will all these blessings die with me when I die? Is there no future for my family? At this time Abraham's family consisted of only he and Sarai.

1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
2 And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
Genesis 15:1–4.

Abraham is looking at what's before him and all he sees is a servant "Eliezer of Damascus." But the LORD already promised to make his name great and that he will be a blessing to a family that will come from his own bowels. Here, the LORD again makes promise to Abraham that through Sarai, an aged woman whose bowels have been empty, shall bring forth an heir. And this is the miracle of the birth of Isaac, and through Isaac the LORD shows Abraham what is to come:

5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. Genesis 15:5.

God is promised a great family from "out of his bowels" that will "fill the earth" and yet Abraham at this point in time doesn't even have an heir. And yet the buildup continues. Instead of waiting on the LORD Sarai hatches a plan that she thinks is in line with the will of God. Well, it is. What follows is the mixed heritage birth of Ishmael.

1 Now Sarai Abram’s wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar.
2 And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.
3 And Sarai Abram’s wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.
4 And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes. Genesis 16:1–4.

Abraham's family grows by one: Ishmael. If you are still with me, I will show through Scripture that the context of WHO is meant when God promises him an heir that will receive not only the blessings God placed on Abraham and his seed, but a promise of land in the exchange between God and Abraham.

1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. Genesis 17:1–10.

In verse four the promise of greatness is repeated. And again, the word "nations" is used. Clearly, at this point in time the word does not mean "non-Hebrew Gentiles," but merely a "massing" of people according to Strong.

In verse six God promises to make Abraham "exceeding fruitful" and "nations" and "kings" shall come out of thee.
These nations and kings God promised will come "out of thee" (Abraham), and again the word "nations" cannot mean "non-Hebrew" for "non-Hebrew Gentiles" cannot biologically be born to two Hebrew parents. Now, on to Sarai:

15 And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be.
16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.
Genesis 17:15–16.

In all these interactions between God and Abraham the context definitely concerns Abraham and his wife, and the children that shall be of Her. There is no discussion about the seed or families of Japheth or Ham, the other two children of Noah. The focus is on the family of Shem. The "families of the earth" and the "nations" and "kings" all come from the seed of Abraham. This is the only family in view here.

Too much writing without saying anything.

So my last question to you:

Did Paul write to the following?
Were they Jewish?:
PHILLIPI
CORINTH
EPHESIS
ROME

Paul was even called the Apostle to the Gentiles.

This is my last post to you J.
What you believe is preposterous.

What I have posted is Scripture. I have also pointed out the obvious that any and all blessings God gave to Abraham is directly tied to his seed, those that will come out of he and Sarah. But now, let me ask you this very important question:

Can two Hebrew parents have offspring or a birth that are non-Hebrew?

My answer is "No, it is impossible."

Nor can a Chinese baby be born to two Mexican parents.

You apply and understand the Scripture above OUT OF CONTEXT. You ADD to the Bible things that are not there. As a result, you believe that non-Hebrew Gentiles CAN be born to two Hebrew parents (Abraham and Sarah.)
You need to look at the context and definition of terms. By interpreting "nations" to mean "non-Hebrew" and "Gentile" your conclusions will come out flawed. That is the difference between my understanding of the Scripture which is Biblical, but yours is not Biblical, not when you add things not in Scripture or misunderstand the text that is clearly addressed in Scripture.

The Abraham Covenant is between God, Abraham, and Abraham's seed. Nowhere does God say that "Gentiles" are born to two Hebrew parents.

 

[brightfame52]

Sorry no believing is a command that God requires before one is made alive

John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Acts 11:18 (KJV)
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

John 6:57 (KJV)
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

Regeneration makes one a child of God. Born of God -

One is made a child of God through faith

John 1:12 (KJV)
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Galatians 3:26 (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

John 12:36 (KJV)
36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

Regeneration is a spiritual resurrection.



We are raised spiritually through faith

Colossians 2:12 (KJV)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

One is born again(regenerated) through faith in gospel

James 1:18 (KJV)
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.


Regeneration is the mechanism of salvation

Titus 3:5 (KJV)
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Ephesians 2:5 (KJV)
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

it is through faith we are saved

EPH 2:8 (KJV)
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

.

Regeneration is preceded by remission of sin

Colossians 2:13 (KJV)
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

which requires both faith and repentance

Acts 10:43 (KJV)
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Luke 24:47 (KJV)
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Believing and repentance are commands, so it applies to the regenerated elect, the Sheep. Its not a command to the unregenerate reprobate, and they are in the flesh and cannot please God nor obey Gods command.

Gospel repentance is commanded as Per Acts 17:30

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Now we know by comparing scripture with scripture, the carnal mind is not subject to the command of God and indeed cannot be Rom 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
The word law here isnt just the mosaic law, its the greek word νόμος:
anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command

Now is repentance a command of God in Acts 17:30 ? Is the carnal minded man at enmity against God? Can it be subject to the command/law of God according to Apostolic doctrine ?

 

[brightfame52]

@Red Baker

I must respectfully disagree with this saying.

Thats fine with me

Adam was not created sinful

Well whether he was or not, he was created to sin, and thats my point, he had no other choice from Gods decreed will standpoint. Christ had already been purposed to die and redeem the elect for from their sins, before adam was dust on the ground 1 Pet 1:18-20

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Adam came after the foundation of the world my friend.

 

[Jim]

@MTMattie @Jim @civic @GodsGrace @synergy @brightfame52 @Kermos @TomL

Jim, you should know better than to say what you are saying.

God created Adam and Eve and then said these words:

Genesis 1:31​

“And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.”

You seriously believe that Adam turned what God said about His creation into something other than very good? Adam was given no such power.

God said all was very good, not just good, but very good. Man's sin is his own undoing, God did everything needed to place our first parents in a world to provide for them every opportunity to not sin. Adam's disobedience was his own choosing to do so, even with his eyes open, unlike Eve who was deceived by the serpent.

Adam's sin brought condemnation and death to his posterity that would come from his loins who were there when he sinned! Just as Levi paid
tithes in Abraham, by being in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

Adam brought condemnation and death to himself. The condemnation and death to all his posterity was because all his posterity sinned (Rom 5:12)

Hebrews 7:9,10​

“And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.”

If you reject this then you reject scriptures, not me.

That expression, "as I may so say" or in more modern English, "so to speak" is used when what is said is not strictly and literally true.

Romans 5:12​

“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:”

1st Corinthians 15:22​

“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”

You reason of rejecting original sin is that you are reasoning outside of the scriptures, when you should be standing upon the testimony of the scriptures in order to be sound in the faith.

Romans 5:12 is speaking about spiritual death; 1 Corinthians 15:22 is speaking about physical death; two entirely different things.

I am rejecting original sin because the very concept is, as I said, a slap in the face of God. The idea that God would give to man a spirit already dead is heresy. The idea that God would condemn anyone for the sin of another is the ultimate injustice and hence also heresy.

 

[civic]

@MTMattie @Jim @civic @GodsGrace @synergy @brightfame52 @Kermos

I must respectfully disagree with this saying.

Adam was not created sinful but upright after God's image with spiritual wisdom, knowledge and understanding, being upright, free of indwelling sin, or a body of sin and death~Adam had a perfect opportunity to not sin, living in a beautiful garden with a beautiful wife (most likely the most beautiful that ever lived coming from the hand of God, to be his help meet, etc.; what more could have God done for him than what He did? Only one thing~to secured him in that state which he did not do, and neither was he under obligation to do so, He did everything else needed for Adam to not sin. Without question, Adam had a free will choice not to sin, but did so by his own free will.

Adam's sin proved one of many great truths, one being, God alone is immutable and cannot sin, neither even have a desire to do so, being an infinite holy and pure God that He is. But, there was one to come from the seed of the woman, that would be both God and man, being made in the likeness of sinful flesh, for sin, condemned sin in the flesh, which body secured eternal life for God's elect that were given to him of his father! They shall called his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Selah.

you are correct that adam was not created sinful.

 

[MTMattie]

@MTMattie @Jim @civic @GodsGrace @synergy @brightfame52 @Kermos @TomL

Jim, you should know better than to say what you are saying.

God created Adam and Eve and then said these words:

Genesis 1:31​

“And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.”

God said all was very good, not just good, but very good. Man's sin is his own undoing, God did everything needed to place our first parents in a world to provide for them every opportunity to not sin. Adam's disobedience was his own choosing to do so, even with his eyes open, unlike Eve who was deceived by the serpent.

Adam's sin brought condemnation and death to his posterity that would come from his loins who were there when he sinned! Just as Levi paid
tithes in Abraham, by being in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

Hebrews 7:9,10​

“And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.”

If you reject this then you reject scriptures, not me.

Romans 5:12​

“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:”

1st Corinthians 15:22​

“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”

You reason of rejecting original sin is that you are reasoning outside of the scriptures, when you should be standing upon the testimony of the scriptures in order to be sound in the faith.

Are you actually saying that God did not have the foreknowledge to know that Eve first, then Adam would disobey?

You admit He gave them free will... and somewhere.... am not taking the time to hunt it now.... you kind of indicated when they sinned then the free will idea went out the door.. my understanding of what you said... was they retained as did man moving forward a sense of free will toward
the things of God.. I know I am not saying it like you did... but this is what I remember you indicating... so if I am seeing it this way others are too.

So that could certainly apply if God had no fore knowledge of what would happen.

Is that what you believe?

You post this often.... "

Romans 5:12​

“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:”

For I still see, clear as a bright noon sun , that every single thing that God created. ( which was all... in His timing) ... that God could have anticipated in His forethought of what would happen and he obviously planned for it.

Question. When exactly did man lose his total free will? I am talking of his free will to basically sin. Was it upon Adam leaving the Garden?

Lets look at Cain and Abel......

In Genesis we are told that the first two sons of Adam are Cain and Abel
Cain, the firstborn, was a farmer, and his brother Abel was a shepherd.
The brothers made sacrifices, each from his own fields, to God.
God had regard for Abel's offering, but had no regard for Cain's.

Hebrews 11:4 indicates ..."By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did”

As I have studied this further I have learned that while Abel brought sacrifices from his first fruits, it was that Cain seemed to lag behind and only eventually brought the offering .. IOW when it suited him, which is a lesson for us but not for today.

So you tell me... if free will was waning then once Adam and Eve were booted from the Garden.... Why did the boys not share the same exuberance of faith? Why did both not make their offerings at the appropriate time? What was it that made them different?

Could it have been jealousy? Did jealousy enter Cain and he killed his brother. A horribly selfish act.
But... How? With out "free will"? Sure seems like they had plenty of free will and each made their choice.
One chose God and the other chose what he wanted and when.

Nothing has happened in this world that has not come at the knowledge of God. He has always been omniscient, and foreknowing, and
forever omnipresent....... and those he foreordained, PREDESTINED, before time were done so to carry out His plans.

His plans were... well, that is for another time, maybe another decade if we both are still alive.

Those who have been predestined to be chosen to carry out the plans of God are not John Q Public. They were chosen for a reason and their
relationship with God has no bearing on us... the common man.

Jeremiah, The disciples ( including Judas) , and even the thief on the cross. Not the least of those we think about when we read

Romans 13:1 KJV,
1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

They were chosen for a reason. It is all part of the plan.

And those of us who were predestined to receive the opportunity of becoming children of the most high God the Father were given the opportunity to choose our course, through our own God given free will. The offer has been made. Choose wisely.

 

[brightfame52]

@Red Baker

@MTMattie @Jim @civic @GodsGrace @synergy @brightfame52 @Kermos @TomL

Jim, that was my point~our works are indeed an evidence that we are born of God,

So is believing in Christ an evidence that one is or had been born of God 1 Jn 5:1

 

[brightfame52]

you are correct that adam was not created sinful.

Was he created mutable ?

 

[Red Baker]

@MTMattie @Jim @civic @GodsGrace @synergy @brightfame52 @Kermos @TomL

@Red Baker

So is believing in Christ an evidence that one is or had been born of God 1 Jn 5:1

Yes, and 1st John 5:1 is a great verse to prove this.

 

[Jim]

@MTMattie @Jim @civic @GodsGrace @synergy @brightfame52 @Kermos @TomL

Tom, it is not easy to tell when you are speaking for yourself and when you are quoting Calvin, Barnes , etc. But, be as it may be....

Here is a direct quote from Calvin from Philippians 1:28,29: https://biblehub.com/commentaries/calvin/philippians/1.htm

"And that from God. This is restricted to the last clause, that a taste of the grace of God may allay the bitterness of the cross. No one will naturally perceive the cross a token or evidence of salvation, for they are things that are contrary in appearance. Hence Paul calls the attention of the Philippians to another consideration -- that God by his blessing turns into an occasion of welfare things that might otherwise seem to render us miserable. He proves it from this, that the endurance of the cross is the gift of God. Now it is certain, that all the gifts of God are salutary to us. To you, says he, it is given, not only to believe in Christ, but also to suffer for him. Hence even the sufferings themselves are evidences of the grace of God; and, since it is so, you have from this source a token of salvation. Oh, if this persuasion were effectually inwrought in our minds -- that persecutions [87] are to be reckoned among God's benefits, what progress would be made in the doctrine of piety! [88] And yet, what is more certain, than that it is the highest honor that is conferred upon us by Divine grace, that we suffer for his name either reproach, or imprisonment, or miseries, or tortures, or even death, for in that case he adorns us with his marks of distinction. [89] But more will be found that will rather bid God retire with gifts of that nature, than embrace with alacrity the cross when it is presented to them. Alas, then, for our stupidity! [90]

29. To believe. He wisely conjoins faith with the cross by an inseparable connection, that the Philippians may know that they have been called to the faith of Christ on this condition -- that they endure persecutions on his account, as though he had said that their adoption can no more be separated from the cross, than Christ can be torn asunder from himself. Here Paul clearly testifies, that faith, as well as constancy in enduring persecutions, [91] is an unmerited gift of God. And certainly the knowledge of God is a wisdom that is too high for our attaining it by our own acuteness, and our weakness shews itself in daily instances in our own experience, when God withdraws his hand for a little while. That he may intimate the more distinctly that both are unmerited, he says expressly -- for Christ's sake, or at least that they are given to us on the ground of Christ's grace; by which he excludes every idea of merit.

This passage is also at variance with the doctrine of the schoolmen, in maintaining that gifts of grace latterly conferred are rewards of our merit, on the ground of our having made a right use of those which had been previously bestowed. I do not deny, indeed, that God rewards the right use of his gifts of grace by bestowing grace more largely upon us, provided only you do not place merit, as they do, in opposition to his unmerited liberality and the merit of Christ."

Highlighted area's are mine~(RB)

And once again, Calvin was wrong. To be granted to believe means, quite simply, not caused to believe but permitted to believe, to be given the privilege to believe. If there is any gift to be considered here, it is the ability to believe. That is given to everyone except perhaps those too young or those too mentally deficient.

 

[Jim]

@Red Baker



So is believing in Christ an evidence that one is or had been born of God 1 Jn 5:1

Do you suppose that Satan does not believe that Jesus is the Christ?

 

[Red Baker]

@MTMattie @Jim @civic @GodsGrace @synergy @brightfame52 @Kermos @TomL

Well whether he was or not,

It is not a matter "If" he was or not~he was not, period.

he was created to sin, and thats my point

Adam was created flesh and blood, he did not possess any of God's infinite attributes, not one. God knew what man would do, when left to himself, just as he knew what some of the angelic host would do when left to themselves before he ever decided to created any of them, thereby making a provision for some of the elect angels and his elect from fallen humanity.

1 Peter 1:2​

“Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.”

Adam came after the foundation of the world my friend.

Okay, my youngest grandson understands that point, and he's only six. I believe your answer to this is already given above.

 

[Red Baker]

@MTMattie @Jim @civic @GodsGrace @synergy @brightfame52 @Kermos @TomL

That is one of the signature faults of synergistic regeneration. There is no way to know whether or not you have been born again.

Jim do you mean ~Monergism? You believe in synergistic regeneration, not me.

 

[civic]

Do you suppose that Satan does not believe that Jesus is the Christ?

he knows like all the demons that Jesus is their Creator, the Christ, the Son of God who is YHWH in the flesh. Thats the reason they obeyed His commands to come out of those possessed and begged Him to not torment them before their appointed time.

 

[Red Baker]

@MTMattie @Jim @civic @GodsGrace @synergy @brightfame52 @Kermos @TomL

You seriously believe that Adam turned what God said about His creation into something other than very good? Adam was given no such power.

His disobedience is ingrained in our fallen nature that all received from Adam, not one is free of this sinful nature, except Christ, whose father was not Adam, but the Holy Ghost.

Jim, one said many years ago: "One reason God made human babies small, is so that they would not kill their parents in their sleep!" They are born evil~Voddie Baucham.
To this agrees the word of God.

“The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies” (Ps. 58:3). First, from the moment of birth every child is morally and spiritually cut off from the Lord—a lost sinner. Matthew Henry described it thus: “estranged from God and all good: alienated from the Divine life, and its principles, powers, and blessings.” Adam lost not only the image of God but His favor and fellowship too, being expelled from His presence. And each of his children was born outside Eden, born in a state of guilt.

Second, in consequence of this, Adam’s children are delinquents, warped from the beginning. Their very being is polluted, for evil is bred in them. Their “nature” is inclined to wickedness only; and if God leaves them to themselves they will never turn from it.

Third, they quickly supply evidence of their separation from God and of the corruption of their hearts—as every godly parent perceives to his sorrow. While in the cradle they evince their opposition to truth, sincerity, integrity. “Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child” (Prov. 22:15), not childishness but foolishness—leaning toward evil, entering upon an ungodly course, forming and following bad habits. It is “bound in the heart”—held firmly there by chains invincible to human power.

But in all ages there have been those who sought to blunt the sharp edge of Psalm 58:3 by narrowing its scope, denying that it has a race-wide application; these are determined at all costs to rid themselves of the unpalatable truth of the total depravity of all mankind. Pelagians and Socinians have insisted that that verse is speaking only of a particularly reprobate class, those who are flagrantly wayward from an early age. Rightly did J. Owen point out:

It is to no purpose to say that he speaks of wicked men only; that is, such as are habitually and profligately so For whatever any man may afterwards run into by a course of sin, all men are morally alike from the womb, and it is an aggravation of the wickedness of men that it begins so early and holds on in an uninterrupted course. Children are not able to speak from the womb, as soon as they be born. Yet here are they said to speak lies. It is therefore the perverse acting of depraved nature in infancy that is intended, for everything that is irregular, that answers not the law of our creation and rule of our obedience, is a lie.

“And were by nature the children of wrath, even as others” (Eph. 2:3). That statement is, if possible, even more awful and solemn than Psalm 58:3. It signifies much more than that we are born into the world with a defiled constitution, for it speaks of not simply “children of corruption,” but “children of wrath”—obnoxious to God, criminals in His sight. Depravity of our natures is no mere misfortune; if it were, it would evoke pity, not anger. The expression “children of wrath” is a Hebraism, a very strong and emphatic one. The original rendering of I Samuel 20:30 and II Samuel 12:5 mentions “the son of death,” that is, one deserving death. In Matthew 23:15 Christ used the fearful term “the child of hell”—one whose sure portion is hell; while in John 17:12 He designated Judas “the son of perdition.” Thus “children of wrath” connotes those who are deserving of wrath, heirs of wrath, fit for it. They are born to wrath, and under it, as their heritage. They are not only defiled and corrupt creatures, but the objects of God’s judicial indignation. Why? Because the sin of Adam is imputed to them, and therefore they are regarded as guilty of having broken God’s law. A.W Pink

Equally forcible and explicit are the words “by nature the children of wrath,” in designed contrast with that which is artificially acquired. Many have insisted (contrary to the facts of common experience and observation) that children are corrupted by external contact with evil, that they acquire bad habits by imitation of others. We do not deny that environment has a measure of influence. Yet if any baby could be placed in a perfect setting and surrounded only by sinless beings, it would soon be evident that he was corrupt. We are depraved not by a process of development, but by genesis. It is not “on account of nature” but “by nature,” because of our nativity. It is innate, bred in us. As Goodwin solemnly pointed out, “They are children of wrath in the very womb, before they commit any actual sin.” The depraved nature itself is a penal evil, and that is because of our federal union with Adam, as sharing in his transgression. We are the children of wrath because our federal head fell under the wrath of God. Calvin stated, “There would be no truth in the assertion of Paul that all are by nature the children of wrath if they had not been already under the curse before their birth.”

But a greater than Calvin has informed us: “For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth, it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated” (Rom. 9:11-13). This goes back still further, before birth. Esau was an object of God’s hatred before he was born. Obviously a righteous God could not abominate one who was pure and innocent. But how could Esau be guilty prior to doing any good or evil? Because he shared Adam’s criminality; and for precisely the same reason, all of us are by nature the children of wrath—obnoxious and subject to divine punishment—not only by virtue of our own personal transgressions, but because of our constitution. Deviation is coexistent with our very being. We are members of a cursed head, branches of a condemned tree, streams of a polluted fountain. In a word, the guilt of Adam’s sin lies on us. No other explanation is possible; since our guilt and liability to punishment are not, in the first place, due to our personal sins, they must be because of Adam’s sin being imputed to us. A.W. Pink

For the same reason infants die naturally, for sin is not merely the occasion of physical dissolution but the cause of it. Death is the wages of sin, the sentence of the broken law, the penal infliction of a righteous God. Had Adam never sinned, neither he nor any of his descendants would have become subject to death. Had not the guilt of Adam’s offense been charged to his posterity, none would die in infancy. Yet it does not necessarily follow that any who expire in early childhood are eternally lost. That they are born into this world spiritually dead, alienated from the life of God, is clear; but whether they die eternally, or are saved by sovereign grace, is one of those secret things which belong to the Lord. If they are saved it must be because they are among the number elected by the Father, redeemed by the Son and regenerated by the Spirit—without which none can enter heaven; but concerning these things Scripture appears to us to be silent. The Judge of all the earth will do right, and there we may submissively yet trustfully leave it. Parenthood is an unspeakably solemn matter.

 

[brightfame52]

Do you suppose that Satan does not believe that Jesus is the Christ?

He believes, but he knows the Gospel of Christ isnt about Christ dying for him

 

[civic]

He believes, but he knows the Gospel of Christ isnt about Christ dying for him

well duh since He didn't die for fallen angels but fallen mankind.

 

[brightfame52]

@Red Baker

His disobedience is ingrained in our fallen nature that all received from Adam, not one is free of this sinful nature, except Christ, whose father was not Adam, but the Holy Ghost.

Correct, and allfor whom Christ represented in His obedience unto death, a obedient nature is communicated to them in regeneration, the elect become obedient by Chrsts Spiritin the Nw Birth 1 Pet 1:2


Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

No one can ever be obedient to God with just the nature we received from Adam, its a nature of disobedience Eph 2:2-3

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Man has no freewill against this plight

 

[Red Baker]

@MTMattie @Jim @civic @GodsGrace @synergy @brightfame52 @Kermos @TomL

Adam brought condemnation and death to himself.

Jim, I could spend so much time here and have in the past with over this same statement, so not going to do so again, at the present anyway ~ but will say this, which is very important: "Jim, you do not understand then how Christ is the surety of his people, impossible for you to truly grasp this truth.

Jim please explain this phrase used by Paul:

Romans 5:14​

“Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.”

In what sense are we to understand Adam being a figure of Christ?