An Article on free will

[brightfame52]

well duh since He didn't die for fallen angels but fallen mankind.

Only part of fallen mankind, the seed of Abraham Heb 2:16-17

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

 

[civic]

Only part of fallen mankind, the seed of Abraham Heb 2:16-17

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

another failure as you eisegeted the passage and twisted its meaning into falalism.

 

[brightfame52]

another failure as you eisegeted the passage and twisted its meaning into falalism.

And when teaching the Gospel of Christ that distinction must be emphasized just as Heb 2:16-17 did. Its particular atonement, He made reconciliation for the sins of the people, not allmankind. Heb 2:17

Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people People here in the original has the definite article, so its definite atonement for a definite people, whih is in Vs 16 the seed of Abraham

 

[civic]

And when teaching the Gospel of Christ that distinction must be emphasized just as Heb 2:16-17 did. Its particular atonement, He made reconciliation for the sins of the people, not allmankind. Heb 2:17

Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people People here in the original has the definite article, so its definite atonement for a definite people, whih is in Vs 16 the seed of Abraham

eisegesis and what is known as cherry picking. the biblical narrative from Genesis - Revelation contradicts your " personal" and "private " view/ interpretation of the isolated passage taken out of context in Hebrews 2.

next fallacy

 

[Red Baker]

@MTMattie @Jim @civic @GodsGrace @synergy @brightfame52 @Kermos @TomL

Are you actually saying that God did not have the foreknowledge to know that Eve first, then Adam would disobey?

Nora, what do you think? Of course God's knowledge is infinite, it cannot be limited or even measure, it is unsearchable. He knew the end from the beginning, and everything you and I would ever do, think etc. before he created the heavens and the earth, etc.

You admit He gave them free will... and somewhere.... am not taking the time to hunt it now.... you kind of indicated when they sinned then the free will idea went out the door..

was they retained as did man moving forward a sense of free will toward
the things of God.. I know I am not saying it like you did... but this is what I remember you indicating... so if I am seeing it this way others are too.

Never said anything even remotely close to that. You may have me confused with someone else, not sure.

Question. When exactly did man lose his total free will? I am talking of his free will to basically sin. Was it upon Adam leaving the Garden?

Nora, I'm not sure what you mean by this: "I am talking of his free will to basically sin". Adam's will became in bondage to his lust and his new master, the Devil himself the very second he lusted and sin. Lets look at Cain and Abel......
In Genesis we are told that the first two sons of Adam are Cain and Abel

Lets look at Cain and Abel......

In Genesis we are told that the first two sons of Adam are Cain and Abel
Cain, the firstborn, was a farmer, and his brother Abel was a shepherd.
The brothers made sacrifices, each from his own fields, to God.
God had regard for Abel's offering, but had no regard for Cain's.

Hebrews 11:4 indicates ..."By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did”

As I have studied this further I have learned that while Abel brought sacrifices from his first fruits, it was that Cain seemed to lag behind and only eventually brought the offering .. IOW when it suited him, which is a lesson for us but not for today.

So you tell me... if free will was waning then once Adam and Eve were booted from the Garden.... Why did the boys not share the same exuberance of faith? Why did both not make their offerings at the appropriate time?

Nora, free will was not waning, they lost it immediately, they were no longer free, but in bondage to their own lust. Now, if one moving forward from Eden, begin to call upon God, or, to do that which God commanded Adam and Eve, then it is owing to the power and grace of God, period.

What was it that made them different?

1 Corinthians 4:7​

“For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?”

It is seen in the offering each made. Abel brought of the firstling of his flock and the fat thereof, meaning he offered a lamb/sheep showing his faith in the coming seed of the woman to make an offering for his sins ~ per Genesis 3:15. Cain brought the labor of his hands expecting God to accept him by his own works of his hand ~he brought a bloodless offering, showing that he did not believed God's words of Genesis 3:15.

Could it have been jealousy? Did jealousy enter Cain and he killed his brother. A horribly selfish act.
But... How? With out "free will"? Sure seems like they had plenty of free will and each made their choice.
One chose God and the other chose what he wanted and when.

He hated his brother because his brother's true faith expose his worthless works of his own hands, that he was so proud of! He did what he thought would be pleasing to God based on his own deceived heart, not what God said in Genesis 3:15.

1st John 3:12​

“Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.”

Cain acted on his own deceived heart/spirit, and done what he wanted to do, what his own depraved will wanted to do. By the gift of faith, Abel did what God said he would do through the seed of the woman, and he believe it and shows his faith by his offering. I have an appointment....later.

 

[TomL]

Believing and repentance are commands, so it applies to the regenerated elect, the Sheep. Its not a command to the unregenerate reprobate, and they are in the flesh and cannot please God nor obey Gods command.

Um that is an absurd argument lacking any validation other than your theology

I posted verse after verse showing that men believe before being given life

Scripture shows if men do not repent, they perish.

Luke 13:3 (LEB) — 3 No, I tell you, but unless you repent you will all perish as well!
'
and that repentance is unto life

Acts 11:18 (NASB95) — 18 When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.”

Your theology puts life before repentance, contrary to scripture.

Gospel repentance is commanded as Per Acts 17:30

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Now we know by comparing scripture with scripture, the carnal mind is not subject to the command of God and indeed cannot be Rom 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
The word law here isnt just the mosaic law, its the greek word νόμος:
anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command

Now is repentance a command of God in Acts 17:30 ? Is the carnal minded man at enmity against God? Can it be subject to the command/law of God according to Apostolic doctrine ?

The law of God is a unit. No one can keep all of it all the time but are you claiming no man can keep even one command from the law not even one time?

No man can avoid murder one time?.

No man can avoid stealing one time?.

No man can avoid dishonoring his mother one time?

No man can avoid committing adultery one time?

sorry your argument is absurd on the face of it.

 

[TomL]

And when teaching the Gospel of Christ that distinction must be emphasized just as Heb 2:16-17 did. Its particular atonement, He made reconciliation for the sins of the people, not allmankind. Heb 2:17

Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people People here in the original has the definite article, so its definite atonement for a definite people, whih is in Vs 16 the seed of Abraham

Um that passage does not support you

Hebrews 2:16–17 (NASB95) — 16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. 17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

The people here are the physical descendants of Abraham who Christ had to be made like

 

[brightfame52]

@TomL

Um that is an absurd argument lacking any validation other than your theology

The Gospel Truth is foolish absurd to some people 1 Cor 2:14. However both Faith and repentance are NT commands and the carnal mind is enmity against God and His commands and cannot obey them. The NT commands are for the regenerated.

 

[brightfame52]

Um that passage does not support you

Hebrews 2:16–17 (NASB95) — 16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. 17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

The people here are the physical descendants of Abraham who Christ had to be made like

The writer of Hebrews was teaching a limited atonement Heb 2:16-17. No they were not physical jews, but Abrahams seed through Christ Gal 3:28-29

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

You are basing salvation on race now, thats another heresy, on ones physical heritage

 

[civic]

@TomL



The Gospel Truth is foolish absurd to some people 1 Cor 2:14. However both Faith and repentance are NT commands and the carnal mind is enmity against God and His commands and cannot obey them. The NT commands are for the regenerated.

1 cor 2 are believers who were carnal minded.

next fallacy

 

[brightfame52]

1 cor 2 are believers who were carnal minded.

next fallacy

Its about the natural man, unregenerated, the believer isnt a natural man sorry

 

[civic]

Its about the natural man, unregenerated, the believer isnt a natural man sorry

nope the corintian believers were carnal. 1 Corinthians chapter 2 and 3 teach this very thing. You have no spiritual discernment.

1 Corinthians 3:1

King James Bible
And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

New King James Version
And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ.

New American Standard Bible
And I, brothers and sisters, could not speak to you as spiritual people, but only as fleshly, as to infants in Christ.

English Standard Version
But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ.

next fallacy

 

[MTMattie]

Nora, I'm not sure what you mean by this: "I am talking of his free will to basically sin". Adam's will became in bondage to his lust and his new master, the Devil himself the very second he lusted and sin. Lets look at Cain and Abel......
In Genesis we are told that the first two sons of Adam are Cain and Abel

Nora, free will was not waning, they lost it immediately, they were no longer free, but in bondage to their own lust. Now, if one moving forward from Eden, begin to call upon God, or, to do that which God commanded Adam and Eve, then it is owing to the power and grace of God, period.

This is close enough to what I remember you saying but me not phrasing it thus.

They lost their free will. When did they lose it. Before or after Abel and Cain were born. You said immediately which would mean that able and cain were born without as there is no indication that they were in the garden with Adam and Eve..... but anyone reading of Abel and Cain would say they had it...... Yet if not both, certainly Cain did for God favored Abel and Cain took matters into his own hands.

You need not answer as I am done with this .

 

[brightfame52]

nope the corintian believers were carnal. 1 Corinthians chapter 2 and 3 teach this very thing. You have no spiritual discernment.

1 Corinthians 3:1

King James Bible
And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

New King James Version
And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ.

New American Standard Bible
And I, brothers and sisters, could not speak to you as spiritual people, but only as fleshly, as to infants in Christ.

English Standard Version
But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ.

next fallacy

Its about the natural man, unregenerate, the believer isn't a natural man sorry. He was writing regenerate believers, however the statement in 1 Cor 2:14 was solely about the natural man who doesn't have the Spirit.

 

[civic]

Its about the natural man, unregenerate, the believer isn't a natural man sorry. He was writing regenerate believers, however the statement in 1 Cor 2:14 was solely about the natural man who doesn't have the Spirit.

Paul refutes you in 1 Corinthians 3:1- same word in 3:1 as 2:14- same group of people, same context.

next fallacy

 

[brightfame52]

Paul refutes you in 1 Corinthians 3:1- same word in 3:1 as 2:14- same group of people, same context.

next fallacy

Nothing refuted, see a regenerated person can walk carnally at times, even a lot of times, yet he is still spiritual and not a natural man due to the fact the Spirit of God dwells in them 1 Cor 6:19

19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Paul wrote in another place, if the Spirit dwells in you, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, or Spiritual Rom 8:9

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

So technically, the carnal acting Corinthians are not in the flesh/natural, but spiritual, and belong to God

 

[civic]

Nothing refuted, see a regenerated person can walk carnally at times, even a lot of times, yet he is still spiritual and not a natural man due to the fact the Spirit of God dwells in them 1 Cor 6:19

19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Paul wrote in another place, if the Spirit dwells in you, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, or Spiritual Rom 8:9

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

So technically, the carnal acting Corinthians are not in the flesh/natural, but spiritual, and belong to God

Wrong as Paul in 1 Cor 2-3 is describing the same carnal believers.

 

[Kermos]

This is close enough to what I remember you saying but me not phrasing it thus.

They lost their free will. When did they lose it. Before or after Abel and Cain were born. You said immediately which would mean that able and cain were born without as there is no indication that they were in the garden with Adam and Eve..... but anyone reading of Abel and Cain would say they had it...... Yet if not both, certainly Cain did for God favored Abel and Cain took matters into his own hands.

You need not answer as I am done with this .

You wrote "anyone reading of Abel and Cain would say they had it" is patently false because neither @Red Baker nor @brightfame52 nor @Presby02 nor myself reading of Abel and Cain would say they had it.

 

[dwight92070]

Jesus is the Chosen One of God. All those who receive the gospel of Jesus and who put their faith in Him are transferred into His kingdom. Col.1:13 Now, being in HIM, that is IN THE CHOSEN ONE, we ourselves are CHOSEN IN HIM. Eph.1:4 Yes, we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world (Eph.1:4), because God chose us according to His foreknowledge (1 Pet.1:1-2). He knew way back then, who would follow Him and who would not.
John 6:64 "For Jesus knew FROM THE BEGINNING, who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him."

From the beginning, God determined that the body of Christ would spend eternity with Him. It's up to us whether we want to become part of that body or not. If we repent and believe in Jesus, we are in that body. If we don't, we are not.

 

[Red Baker]

@MTMattie @Jim @civic @GodsGrace @synergy @brightfame52 @Kermos @TomL

This is close enough to what I remember you saying but me not phrasing it thus.

They lost their free will. When did they lose it. Before or after Abel and Cain were born. You said immediately which would mean that able and cain were born without as there is no indication that they were in the garden with Adam and Eve..... but anyone reading of Abel and Cain would say they had it...... Yet if not both, certainly Cain did for God favored Abel and Cain took matters into his own hands.

You need not answer as I am done with this .

Nora, no offense, but your wording is much to be desire, since it's hard to know exactly what you are laboring to convey to those who read your post.

Adam and Eve sinned the very second God left them to themselves, we know this by the fact that no angels or flesh and blood are immutable, unless protected by God's power to secured them.

Those that Adam beget were conceived in his fallen image.

Genesis 5:3​

“And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:”

Likeness begets likeness is a law that that even nature teaches us.

Seth was conceived in Adam's own likeness, after his image; not in the likeness, and after the image of God, in which Adam was created; for having sinned, he lost that image, at least it was greatly defaced, with only a shadow left, if even that ~ and does not convey God's image in which he was created to his posterity; who are, and ever have been conceived in sin, and shapen in iniquity; are polluted and unclean, foolish and disobedient; averse to all that is good, and prone to all that is evil: the sinfulness of nature is conveyed by natural generation, but not holiness and grace; that is not of blood, nor of the will of man, nor of the flesh, but of God, and produced of his own will, by his mighty power creating the image of his Son in regeneration in his people; which by beholding his glory they are more and more changed into by the Spirit of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:16​

“For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.”