@jeremiah1five
Better yet, try living by every word of God, not by what you want to believe in, even if you cannot prove it with the scriptures, which you can
never prove your Jewish fable and your unscriptural and I might add unnatural love of the natural seed of Abraham, who for the most part, have proven to be some of the most fierce haters of the truth. (John 8)
QUESTION: True or False: God's covenant with Abram the Hebrew (Gen. 14:13) is extended to his seed.
ANSWER: True.
PROOF:
1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
2 And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
4 And,
behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir;
but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
Genesis 15:1–4.
QUESTION: Are non-Hebrew (Gentiles) included in the Abraham Covenant?
ANSWER: No.
PROOF: (The Abrahamic Covenant is between GOD, ABRAHAM, and ABRAHAM'S BIOLOGICAL SEED.)
2 And
I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
4 As for me,
behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7 And
I will establish my covenant between me and
thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Genesis 17:2–7.
QUESTION: What about verse six and seven where it says [Abraham being] "a father of many nations", and "a father of many nations have I made thee."
ANSWER: The discussion between God and Abraham focuses on Abraham desiring an "heir" and God granting him an heir and God promises an heir "out of thine own bowels" (15:4.) In the text is mention of "nations" which many take to be describing non-Hebrew Gentiles, but that is not the correct understanding. "Nations" are not Gentiles but "
nations" of people "
out of thine own bowels", and "
come out of thee." Abraham married his half-sister and both share "Eber" as their great-great-great grandfather. Both Abraham and Sarah were Hebrew (Eber) and two Hebrew parents cannot have a child that is non-Hebrew. That is impossible. Here, in this covenant the word "nations" merely means "massing" as in peoples or animals. At this time in Abraham's life the word "nations" does not refer to "non-Hebrew Gentiles", for again, two Hebrew parents cannot birth a non-Hebrew child (Isaac.) Two German parents cannot birth a Mexican child. According to Strong, the word "nations" (goy) merely means "massing" and
does not mean "Gentiles" (non-Hebrews.)
1 Thessalonians 2:14-15
“For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even
as they have of the Jews:
Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway:
for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost."
You Jeremiah are supporting God's enemies, thinking you are doing God a service! There have been some great men/women from that nation
in the past (much greater than we'll ever be) when God worked through them,
but those days are long gone never to return,
"never" as pre-Christ's death and resurrection. We love our Jewish brethren that are converted to the religion of Jesus Christ, even though they are few and far in between.
Oh, but I'm living in that moment by believing in such scriptures as:
When I said, "living in the moment" I was referring to Abraham's life in the day he was living it. As I show above there are no non-Hebrew Gentiles in the Abraham Covenant and that at the time Abraham was speaking to God and living in the moment of his life Abraham understood that he and Sarah are related in that they share the same father but different mothers, and that their father is a descendant of Eber from whom the word and family of Eber means they are both Hebrew and that God's promise to make Abraham a father of many nations can only refer to Abraham being father to Ishamel and Esau and their descendants. Later, "nations" (goy) came to mean "non-Hebrew Gentiles" but at the time Abraham was living the word only means "massing" as in many, many people of many, many animals.
God made a covenant with Abraham and Abraham's Hebrew seed or descendants. Abraham did become a father of many nations through Ishmael and Esau, and although Abraham's offspring were blessed by God in great and mighty ways and "kings" did "come out of thee" (Abraham), Abraham's heir was a son from both he and Sarah whom they named "Isaac" which means "laughter."
19 And God said,
Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and
I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
Genesis 17:19.
The text reads that God will establish His covenant with Isaac and "
with his seed after him." This undoubtedly refers to Jacob and his descendants.
2 And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of: 3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and
unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;
4
And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Genesis 26:2–5.
Again, the "nations of the earth" still refer to Abraham's descendants through Ishmael, Isaac, Esau, and Jacob and their descendants. Ishmael had twelve sons and so did Jacob. And though all these bloodlines that were born traced back to Abraham were blessed, but as God declares later the promises were inherited through Isaac and then Jacob and to Jacobs twelve sons, a "nation" of people called the twelve tribes of Israel/Jacob.
John 8:56
“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.~He saw it with an eye of faith, he saw it in the promise, that in his seed all the nations of the earth should be blessed; (a truth you reject) he saw him in the birth of his son Isaac and rejoiced, and therefore called his name Isaac, that is, "laughter": he saw also Christ and his day, his sufferings, death, and resurrection from the dead, in a figure; in the binding of Isaac, in the sacrifice of the ram, and in the receiving of Isaac, as from the dead; and all this was matter of joy and gladness to him. So, Jeremiah, I too rejoice with the eye of faith.
No, I understand what is written and the context. God promised to bless all the seed of Abraham. But what you believe is that non-Hebrew Gentiles come from two Hebrew parents. I don't. The whole conversation between God and Abraham has to do with an heir. That heir was the miracle of Isaac's birth.
You quote John 8:56 and Jesus is describing how HIS SEED (Abraham's) are HIS DESCENDANTS and that THEY - HIS SEED - are the "nations" of the earth that God blesses. Non-Hebrew Gentiles DO NOT come from two Hebrew parents so I think you need to bring your understanding into compliance with the Scripture. Before Abraham's covenant there were no "Gentiles" in existence. The Hebrew word "goy" translated as "nations" does not in the day Abraham lived mean "Gentiles."
So, let me ask you: can two Hebrew parents birth a non-Hebrew child?
Not so sure Paul was a Rabbi, because of his age, yet for sure he was a Pharisees (Philippians 3), but rather or not he was a Rabbi, is truly irrelevant. Glad you finally calling him by his Gentile name~"Paul"...progress being made.
It is not irrelevant. Saul's letters read in the discipline of rabbinical thought and debate. It was because Saul was dealing with Hebrews that have assimilated Gentile lifestyle, culture, and thought processes, he allowed to use his Romanized name of "Paul."
The reason why Paul would not circumcise Gentile believers, because he knew circumcision did not mean a thing post Christ, either way, if you were, or, if you were not, so what? The Jews' rellgion was a dead rellgion post Christ's resurrection. There's a new Israel, with so much better promises, were the true worshippers offer up sacrifices of praise continually through Jesus Christ
If the Law of Moses was a dead religion, why does Jesus instruct and direct a lost sheep of the House of Israel to obey it if in mere weeks through the cross, He was to "abolish" it?
17 And he said unto him,
Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Matt. 19:17.
And Saul also commands Christians to obey the Scripture, which for the Jew is the Law, the Psalms, and the Prophets.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3:16–17.
If the Law was abolished or made obsolete, why does Saul command Christian believers to obey it, to study it, in order for the man of God be "thoroughly furnished unto all good works"?
Jews who became born-again the first thing they fall in love with is the Scripture. The Scripture of Law, Psalms, and Prophets. I know when I became born-again I fell in love with God's Word the Scripture. That, incidentally, is a mark of a true believer.
20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother,
how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: Acts 21:19–20.
Even Saul remained obedient to the Law of Moses:
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing;
but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. Acts 21:24.
Why would Christians become zealous of the Law when they became born-again? And why would Saul continue to be obedient to the Law, Psalms, and Prophets if these were, as YOU say, was a "DEAD RELIGION."
Fake brethren are identified by how they treat God's Word. They say things like the Old Testament was "abolished" or made "obsolete." Sorry to disappoint but everyone who became born-again fell in love with the Scripture, with God's Word, with the Law, the Psalms, and the Prophets. People like you.
Galatians 6:15
“For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.”
The Israel of God is an Old Testament term. And Saul is writing to mixed heritage Hebrews. Mixed heritage Hebrews who are the lost sheep of the House of Israel (of God.)
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But
now in Christ Jesus ye
who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Ephesians 2:11–13.
"Far off." That's the same term Peter spoke to Jews and mixed heritage Jews in Acts 2 sermon:
39 For the promise is
unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. Acts 2:39.
And "far off" was also the prayer of Jesus before His sacrificed Himself for "those under the Law."
20
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
John 17:20.
Jeremiah, Yes, God made a covenant with certain men in the OT which happened to be Jews, which covenant was nothing more than the everlasting covenant of grace made with Christ before the world begun. Beginning with Noah, to Abraham, to David to Christ each time a little more of the everlasting covenant was made known each time God gave it to the Patriarchs. David understood this perfectly:
The covenant that meant anything is the Abraham Covenant, the Mosaic Covenant, and the New Covenant, and ALL THREE describe the salvation of the LORD to and for the Hebrew people - the people born from Eber.
And ALL THREE covenants are with the Hebrew people - NOT Gentiles.
The covenant of grace made with David's antitype, with Christ the head of the church, and the representative of it, and so with all his people in him, is an everlasting one: it was made with Christ from everlasting, as appears from the everlasting love of God, the source and spring of it; the earliness of the divine counsels on which it is formed, and blessings and promises of it, with which it is filled, which were before the world was; and from Christ being set up as the Mediator of it from everlasting: (2nd Timothy 1:9) and it will continue to everlasting;
Noah's covenant had nothing to do with salvation. Being delivered from the flood only saved the flesh, not the soul. Abraham's Covenant laid the groundwork for a covenant that will save: The Mosaic Covenant. The New Covenant is only the Mosaic Covenant fulfilled by Christ.
Briefly, Jeremiah, here is where you and other missed a very important truth. The mystery of Jews and Gentiles being made ONE FOLD was hidden in the OT scriptures under such phrases as "The house of Israel and the House of Judah" ~The house of Israel being a type of the Gentiles, and Judah being the Jews where the temple was and where men went to worship in the OT.
See that. In order to include Gentiles in the salvation plan of God you have to twist the Scripture.
NONE of the three covenants God made with the Hebrew people include non-Hebrew Gentiles. NONE. You twist the Scripture and add to the Bible, but there are NO GENTILES named or mentioned as being in covenant. NONE.
The new covenant promised by Jeremiah in Jeremiah 31 and again mentioned in Hebrews 8, God revealing to us concerning more of the everlasting covenant of grace where he secured salvation by his almighty power and free grace for Jews (House of Judah) and Gentiles (The house of Israel)~forming what makes up the True Israel of God. explaining even more such scriptures as :
YOU ADD TO THE BIBLE THINGS THAT ARE NOT THERE. Jeremiah's prophecy of a New Covenant does not mention Gentiles.
Romans 2:28
“
For he is not a Jew, which is
one outwardly; neither
is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Now, this is a good stopping place to come back and finish, I said a little where it could have been many pages, but enough to help you to see where I'm coming from.
Saul is making a distinction between Isaac and Ishmael, between the Promised seed (Isaac) and the only one that counts. Ishmael may have been among the "nations" that "come out of Abraham"
It's a shame you can't take the Word of God literally and as written without adding to it and twisting it to fit your false narrative.
Beginning with Abraham there are NO GENTILES in this covenant. It is between God, Abram the Hebrew, and with Abram the Hebrews' Hebrew seed.
The Mosaic Covenant is between God and Abram's seed, a people delivered out of Egypt called the children of Israel.
The New Covenant is between God and the House of Israel (ten northern kingdom tribes), and with the House of Judah (tw0 southern kingdom tribes.
And NONE of them include non-Hebrew Gentiles.
