Once again, Red, you make the false assumption that the Spirit of God can come to work upon a sinner's heart only in regeneration. That is simply not true. The scriptures make no such claim. The entire 10th Chapter of Romans speaks out against that. That idea belittles the power of God through the Holy Spirit.
An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
Dizerner
Well-known member
Many places. Old man, body of sin, nothing good in my flesh, heart deceitful above all things, sold under sin, conceived in sin, turn from the womb.
Full defense here:
The very idea of original sin is a slap in the face of God. It makes God the cause of all sin - PERIOD.Many places. Old man, body of sin, nothing good in my flesh, heart deceitful above all things, sold under sin, conceived in sin, turn from the womb.
Full defense here:
civic
Well-known member
I am not sure what you are asking. Sin is simply disobeying God. Disobedience is a choice. It is what Adam chose to do and it is what you choose to do.
@MTMattie @Jim @civic @GodsGrace @synergy @brightfame52 @Kermos
Also: Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 1:21; 3:23; and Ephesians 2:1-3, just to name a few.
Men in bondage to Satan and sin love their master and the sin that they think brings them the fulfillment of happiness in serving the lust of the flesh. Even after one is born of God, these same sinful lust still work in our members, and we must rule over them to mortify them, in order to live a victorious life of pleasing to God, and making our life free of trouble, sometimes we lose this battle, but as we get older it is much easier to conquer the lust of the flesh ~be whatever that lust may be.
Jim, it is different, even though in some cases there are some close connections to progressive sanctification, even though sanctification is also a one time event secured by Christ for us ~ but another subject for another day.
While I agree..."Clearly Paul is not speaking of himself in his not yet born again life; rather he is speaking as he "lived on the earth surrounded by the cares and anxieties of this life" in his regenerated state." Yes....yet, Paul made it very clear that the life which he was then living in the flesh, was by the faith of Jesus Christ, who loved him, and gave himself for him. He lived his life while still in the flesh, by the power of the new man, that was created after the image of Jesus Christ, which is why he said..."I live by the faith of the Son of God".
Jim, it is very much so, probably even worse than I'm saying it.
Genesis 6:5
“And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.”Also: Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 1:21; 3:23; and Ephesians 2:1-3, just to name a few.
Then pray to tell me what it is, if it is not his mind/heart/spirit all very much connected in God's word.
Jim there's a big difference between political bondage, to the slavery of the soul to evil passions and desires. Listen carefully to Christ's words:
John 3:19
“And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.”Men in bondage to Satan and sin love their master and the sin that they think brings them the fulfillment of happiness in serving the lust of the flesh. Even after one is born of God, these same sinful lust still work in our members, and we must rule over them to mortify them, in order to live a victorious life of pleasing to God, and making our life free of trouble, sometimes we lose this battle, but as we get older it is much easier to conquer the lust of the flesh ~be whatever that lust may be.
We are given this in the new birth, but we still have the old man called this body of SIN and DEATH. Jim do you agree that each child of God is composed of two men ~our old man/flesh, and our new man, created after the image of Jesus Christ?
2nd Corinthians 4:16
“For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.”
GodsGrace
Well-known member
P, that's so dumb, I just can't reply.
Believe what you will.
GodsGrace
Well-known member
And YOU P,,,,need to learn what your denomination teaches.
You're VERY GOOD at ad hominems.
VERY BAD at knowing about the belief system you claim to belong to.
Read that confession over and over....and also read the green comments of mine.
MAYBE some day you'll come to understand what I posted.
Most probably not.
@MTMattie @Jim @civic @GodsGrace @synergy @brightfame52 @Kermos
Forgive me of errors, I'm typing fast since i must leave NOW.
Before God, I truly attempt to hear every person out very carefully, and stay aways from having preconceived thoughts about what they may post is in line with my beliefs, or not. It is not easy, but I do attempt to reasonable and fair, while holding firm to the truth.
I know that to be true, ye i n spite of what God said otherwise~and, btw, even your quote from Barnes said the same, which is kinda puzzling to me that you would even quote him saying what he said, since it went against your beliefs, which tells me that you are confused. Which does not surprised me.
Well, Nora, man's will is not free as far as being able to do spiritual acts pleasing to God. Your last sentence I'm not sure what you are trying to say in relation to man's free will toward righteousness ~not sure you do either, no pun intended.
Well, Adam and Eve sinned and became in bondage to sin and the devil himself. All of Adam's posterity coming from his loins have his fallen nature that is also in bondage to sin. Genesis 5:3
ALL are born in sin, all except Christ, whose Father was the Holy Ghost. Are mocking God's truth concerning election of grace? Not a good thing to do.
Nora, if you believe in Jesus Christ, that is the strongest evidence one can have of having confidence they will inherit eternal life. Understanding certain doctrines is not necessarily a strong evidence one is born of God, it could be, but I rather think faith, and godly fruits of a holy life is the strongest evidence that one is born of God ~understanding comes over time, and no one has perfect understanding. Now, that being said, hating and fighting truths is not a good sign of having the faith of God's elect, but I'll leave that to God to judge, not me.
Forgive me of errors, I'm typing fast since i must leave NOW.
brightfame52
Well-known member
There is no problem, they which are in the flesh cannot please God Rom 8:8 can't obey God Rom 8:7
brightfame52
Well-known member
More free will worship
MTMattie
Well-known member
You are so anxious to get me right into the middle of your avatar aren't you.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
Interesting how you quote 2 Timothy 3:16-17, which proves the Law, Psalms, and the Prophets - the Hebrew Scripture - is still in effect and to be obeyed, but in another comment, you say the Old Testament is no longer in effect. Well, which is it?
The Holy Ghost IS the Author and He makes it clear the New Covenant instituted by Jesus Christ at His last Passover and sealing this New Covenant in His body and blood is the same New Covenant prophesied by Jeremiah who establishes the New Covenant as between God and the House of Israel (ten northern kingdom tribes), and the House of Judah (two southern kingdom tribes.) There's nothing ambiguous about Jeremiah's prophecy. The New Covenant - as with the Abraham and Mosaic Covenants - are between God and the Hebrew people through Abraham and his biological seed. There are no non-Hebrew Gentiles in the New Covenant. None.
None of the three salvation covenants includes non-Hebrew Gentiles.
The Abraham Covenant is between God, Abram the Hebrew (Gen. 14:13), and extended to Abram's Hebrew seed.
The Mosaic Covenant is between God and Abram's Hebrew seed, a people also called the children of Israel (Jacob.)
The New Covenant is between God and the House of Israel of ten tribes, and the House of Judah of two tribes. There is no mention of non-Hebrew Gentiles in the Jeremiah prophecy in 31:31-34. And the New Covenant is only the Mosaic Covenant fulfilled by Jesus Christ. The Jeremiah covenant that records God forgiving His people is based on the fulfillment of the Mosaic Covenant which Jesus Christ fulfilled in His Word and in His Person. Saul makes this clear in Galatians 4:4-5, which reads:
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. Galatians 4:4–5.
The children of Israel that were under the Law of Moses are the same children of Israel with whom God made New Covenant which was personally fulfilled by Christ the Person as unblemished Substitute for the Hebrew people is the New Covenant prophesied by Jeremiah. There are no non-Hebrew Gentiles named or mentioned by Jesus Christ at His last Passover meal when He initiated a New Covenant in His body and blood, nor are there any non-Hebrew Gentiles named or mentioned as being included in the Jeremiah New Covenant (31:31-34.)
I don't understand why you don't accept the Scripture as written without trying to twist it to include non-Hebrew Gentiles. There are NO Gentiles named or mentioned as being in any of the three Hebrew Covenants: Abraham, Mosaic, and New.)
This is the bottom line. If there are no non-Hebrew Gentiles mentioned as being in the Abraham Covenant and the Mosaic Covenant, recorded in the Hebrew Scripture, then there can be no non-Hebrew Gentiles in the New Covenant prophesied by Jeremiah and established in the body and blood of Jesus Christ. When the high priest under the Law was instructed and commanded by God to sacrifice an animal for the yearly covering of the sins of the children of Israel, he did not sacrifice any animal for the temporary atonement of the sins of non-Hebrew Gentiles, then non-Hebrew Gentiles are outside of the covenant of atonement between God and the Hebrew people - Abraham's seed.
Thus, as Jesus said, "Scripture cannot be broken" means that if there are no non-Hebrew Gentiles in the Mosaic Covenant, then there will be no non-Hebrew Gentiles included in the New Covenant and that any doctrine or teaching that seeks to include non-Hebrew Gentiles into the two Hebrew covenants - Abraham and Mosaic - adding non-Hebrew Gentiles into the New Covenant BREAKS Scripture and is a doctrine and teaching that has no Old Covenant (Mosaic) basis and should be rejected. Thus, in order to have a New Covenant that does not break with the Mosaic and Abraham Covenants in which no non-Hebrew Gentiles are included in the New Covenant, then the term "Gentiles" needs to be rightly divided and identified by Scripture and reasonable history.
Fact #1. There are no non-Hebrew Gentiles in the Abraham Covenant.
Fact #2. There are no non-Hebrew Gentiles in the Mosaic Covenant.
Fact #3. There are no non-Hebrew Gentiles in the New Covenant.
Thus, Scripture is NOT broken but established as true. There are no non-Hebrew Gentiles included in any of the three Hebrew Covenants stated above.
IF there are no non-Hebrew Gentiles in the Abraham and Mosaic Covenants, and non-Hebrew Gentiles are included in the New Covenant, then Scripture is broken and cannot be true. No one can add to the Abraham and Mosaic Covenants for these covenants have been closed to non-Hebrew Gentiles for non-Hebrew Gentiles are not mentioned as being included in the Abraham or Mosaic Covenants.
The Abraham Covenant between God, Abraham, and Abraham's biological seed.
The Mosaic Covenant between God and the children of Israel is a covenant that is established between God and the children of Israel who are biologically Abraham's seed.
The New Covenant prophesied by Jeremiah to Israel during the course of his prophesying to Israel clearly states that the New Covenant he prophesied will be between God and the House of Israel and the House of Judah, thus encompassing the biological Hebrew seed of Abraham and Sarah.
Because I find no inclusion of non-Hebrew Gentiles in any of the three Hebrew covenants (Abraham, Mosaic, and New.) The Scripture does not identify or include non-Hebrew Gentiles in these three covenants. If there were non-Hebrew Gentiles named or included in the Abraham and Mosaic Covenants, then there can be no non-Hebrew Gentiles in the New Covenant which Jeremiah prophesied below:
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
That I will make a new covenant
With the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers
In the day that I took them by the hand
To bring them out of the land of Egypt;
Which my covenant they brake,
Although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;
After those days, saith the LORD,
I will put my law in their inward parts,
And write it in their hearts;
And will be their God,
And they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying,
Know the LORD:
For they shall all know me,
From the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD:
For I will forgive their iniquity,
And I will remember their sin no more.
Jeremiah 31:31–34.
This New Covenant was established between God and the children of Israel and Judah. Jeremiah's prophecy above does not name or mention non-Hebrew Gentiles as being included in the New Covenant prophesied by Jeremiah. If there were non-Hebrew Gentiles included in the Abraham Covenant, I would say so. If there were non-Hebrew Gentiles included in the Mosaic Covenant I would say so. And if there were non-Hebrew Gentiles included in the New Covenant I would say so. But there are none. There are no non-Hebrew Gentiles named, mentioned, or included in any of the three Hebrew Covenants.
You are adding Gentiles into the Mosaic covenant that does not identify Gentiles as being in the Mosaic Covenant. Under the Law, when the high priest sacrificed yearly for the sins of the children of Israel it was strictly the children of Israel for whom sacrifice is made. The high priest did not sacrifice any animal or other offering for non-Hebrew Gentiles. Not only that, but Jesus Christ as High Priest did not break Scripture and did not offer Himself as sacrifice for non-Hebrew Gentiles but as High Priest did indeed offer sacrifice to atone for the sins of the children of Israel who were under covenant with God under the Mosaic Covenant made between God and the children of Israel at Mount Sinai in the desert at the time of the Tabernacle.
The true "Israel of God" are the descendants of Jacob/Israel, who was and is the true Israel/Jacob of God.
God scattered Abraham's biological seed throughout the then-known world, first to Assyria, then to Babylon, and then to in-between Gentile lands outside of the land of Israel/Palestine. In the course of this scattering, the Jews did "mingle with the 'goyim' and learned their ways." Whether through rape, concubinage, or slavery, or even through consensual marriage between Jews and non-Jews, there are now non-Hebrew Gentiles in the family of Abraham through birth of children between Jews and Gentiles. But God made no covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles. None.
When Nehemiah, and later, Ezra, who brought a remnant of Jews with him back to Israel finally established a remnant of Jews in the land it must also be acknowledge that the majority of all Jews and mixed heritage Jews alive at the time remained in Gentile lands and were heavily influenced by Greek culture became what Jesus identified as "the lost sheep of the House of Israel" and they are the people to whom He came, a people who were after approximately 29-35 generations of births between Jew and Jew as well as between Jew and Gentile, in 700 years since the defeat of Israel and Judah, those Jews and Jew-Gentile offspring remained in places outside of the land of Israel and in time of their exile and being carried away lost their Hebrew culture and identity through intermarriage with Gentiles, through rape, through concubinage, and through slavery,
Taking Scripture as written (Genesis to Malachi) I find no evidence of any covenant between God and non-Hebrew Gentiles. AND the only way for a non-Hebrew Gentile to have the body and blood covenant extended to them they must be the offspring of Jew and non-Jew ancestry. As long as the person in question has Abraham's DNA, then they are covered by the instrument of covenant between God and the Hebrew people through the seed of Abraham and of Moses.
The New Covenant is only the Mosaic Covenant fulfilled by Jesus Christ/Messiah. The result of the forgiveness mentioned by Jeremiah in his prophecy is based upon the body and blood of Jesus Christ while under the Mosaic Covenant.
With all due respect to you personally, Red, that is an out and out falsehood. When the unregenerate tells the truth, do you actually believe that is not pleasing to God? Or more to the point, do you really believe that God is displeased with someone telling the truth.
Another out and out falsehood.
And yet again. and again, and again. To be born in sin means that the spirit formed in man is dead. Terribly false accusation against God.
How many of those godly fruits does it take to produce the evidence that one is born of God? More than one? More that two? Just exactly, how many?
Not free will worship; just free will fact.
But it only works if one believes the bible.
Duh the founder of your religion was man centered then
The work that God requires as even your fellow Calvinists below affirm
John Calvin: “People who infer from this passage that faith is God’s gift are mistaken, for Christ does not show here what God produces in us, but what God wants and requires from us.” (The Crossway Classic Commentaries: John; Crossway Books; Wheaton, IL; 1994, p.393)
And another
This is the work of God. This is the thing that will be acceptable to God, or which you are to do in order to be saved. Jesus did not tell them they had nothing to do, or that they were to sit down and wait, but that there was a work to perform, and that was a duty that was imperative. It was to believe on the Messiah. This is the work which sinners are to do; and doing this they will be saved, for Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth, Ro. 10:4.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 244.
As well as others who are not Calvinists
Believe. Faith is put as a moral act or work. The work of God is to believe. Faith includes all the works which God requires. The Jews’ question contemplates numerous works. Jesus’ answer directs them to one work. Canon Westcott justly observes that “this simple formula contains the complete solution of the relation of faith and works.”11 Marvin Richardson Vincent, Word Studies in the New Testament (vol. 2; New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1887), 148–149.
The meaning is not,—that faith is wrought in us by God, is the work of God; but that the truest way of working the work of God is to believe on Him whom He hath sent.11 Henry Alford, Alford’s Greek Testament: An Exegetical and Critical Commentary (vol. 1; Grand Rapids, MI: Guardian Press, 1976), 761.
Unlike you their exegesis is based on the context.
