Acts 10:45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles.
Keep on ignoring Scripture that does not fit your bizarre doctrine.
An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
Keep on ignoring Scripture that does not fit your bizarre doctrine.
Reasons why we Dissent from such as Hold Free Will. (written in 1650 by Particular Baptist Churches of England) Highlighted are mine~RB
1. Because it exempts the creature from being under the power of God, for that which gives a creature power to do as he will, when God hath done all he may unto him, that doth make him no instrument subject to God’s power; for they affirm, that God doth not work in his omnipotence, but leaves it to the free will of the creature. It is one thing to be able to do a thing by persuasion, and another to do it by power which I cannot refuse, this latter they deny.
2. It denies God’s decree to be infallible, for either God determines in such and such cases, with the circumstances thereof, or not; if not, then he cometh short of the creature herein, for he determines such things in his matters.
3. If God doth not determine and apply the creature to will and work that which he works in the creature, then the creature is the cause why God wills this or that, and by consequence is the cause why he wills this or that, but the creature is not the cause, &c., God’s working this or that, must either go before the will, and so cause it to will, or else it must follow, accomplishing that which man’s will wills, the latter makes God to follow and tend on man’s will; also it makes the will of man to have a casual force in God himself, as if God should say, I will work conversion, faith, &c., in such a person if he will.
4. If liberty of will stands in such a power, free for exercising good or evil, then Christ had not liberty of will, for he had liberty only to work that which was good; nor hath man of himself any liberty or power to come to Christ; for, saith Christ, none can come to me, except the Father draw him, Jn.6:44,37, so that they are deceived who make God by his grace to convert us. So that he leaves it in our power, whether we will be converted or no; but who can resist that which God worked by his almighty power, Eph.1:19, when he puts forth his power which raised Christ from the dead; and if this could be resisted, it were not almighty. The Apostle saith, that the power did work in him mightily. Col.1:29, Eph.1:19, 3:20.5. Because God in his good pleasure of his will, doth freely and effectually determine of all things whatsoever he will, he doth all things according to the counsel of his own will, Eph.1:11, all things are in the mind of God before they are in themselves, and what he will, he effected in his time, and nothing is done, if he wills it not to be done, Psal.115:3,35:6; Jehovah doth whatsoever he pleases. The will of God is the first cause of all things;“ for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.” Rev.4:11. He by willing makes the object willing, Jer.1:18, he hath mercy on whom he will, Rom.9:18, and there is no cause to be given of his will. It’s God that works in you to will and to do, Phil.2:13; and such as make the will of God to depend upon the creature, as if he believes, God wills his salvation, if he believes not, he wills his damnation, makes God’s will mutable, and to depend upon the act of the creature; and then it will follow, so often as the will of the creature changes, so often God changes, and then God will do this or that if man will; but whatsoever God wills in all things he wills effectually, so that he cannot in no wise be hindered or disappointed; for if God should will anything he could not obtain, there should be imperfection in God, and if he can obtain it and will not, how then doth he will it? “Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, my counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure.”Isa.46:10. Every decree of God is eternal, I Cor.2:7, Acts 15:18, and remains always immutable, Num.23:23, Prov.19:21, and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed, Acts 13:48; whom he predestinated, them he called, Rom.8:30; for God did from eternity know every several thing, with all the circumstances thereof, and knows how to apply the fittest occasion to everything, and how to effect all things according to his own immeasurable glory. He that frames the heart, observes and orders all their works, Psal.33:15, Isa.44:2, even those things that seem to happen most freely and spontaneously, God determines of according to his sovereign will, of the very heart of man. I Sam.10:9,26, Prov.21:1. Of the lot cast into the lap, and the entire disposing thereof being of the LORD, Prov.16:33; of sparrows falling, Matt.10:29-30; of lilies, flowers, and grass of the earth, Matt.6:28-30; yea of all creatures and things. Amos 4:13,Jer.14:22. “I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I the LORD do all these things.” Isa.45:7. By all which it appears that the will of God determined the certainty of all things; and if God should not determine all things, the will of God should not be simply and universally the first cause; and to deny him to be the first cause, implies that there are two first beginnings, or more than two, which cannot be truth. And for any to say, that man hath power to resist all God can work for his conversion, is to put grace in man’s power, {and not man’s will under the power of grace;} and this is to say, that man is able to frustrate God’s counsel concerning his conversion, and that man possesses a power to resist all that God can work herein; and this is to affirm, that man hath power to frustrate God’s counsel; and if it be so, will it not follow that man hath power to make God a liar? If God by his omnipotent power inclines the wills of men whither he wills, then he hath them more in his power than man hath; then his will decreeing is the cause necessity followed, and the will of the creature is not the cause of the necessities of things. The Scriptures declare that God works all things after the counsel of his will {notman’s will} and that the LORD hath made all things for himself. “The LORD hath made all things for himself; yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.” Prov.16:4.
Objection: Then you take away the liberty of the will, if man have no power to do otherwise.
Answer: That which doth {not having power to do otherwise} from second causes,compelling it so to do in that it is not free; God’s will in himself is the first cause of all things, and this omnipotent will of God doth determine the creature.
2. Men ground the freedom of will falsely, for the freedom of will as it is a faculty voluntary or elective, doth not require this indifference of the inclination in exercise, for it is bound by God’s decree, so as not anything can be done but what he hath determined, yet nothing can satisfy some, unless it be granted, that they have power of will to cross God’s decree.
3. If the cause why God chooses me {and not another} is because I will, &c., then it is not merely from his will, and then you deny the freedom of God’s will. Also if a man hath liberty of will to resist God’s will and work, so as God shall not convert him, it will follow that when we are converted, we convert ourselves, which is contrary to the Scriptures; and do not they give the Scriptures the lie, that say the will of an unregenerate man may be free to righteousness, will it, and embrace it when it is proposed; but if a seeing eye were in darkness, it could not discern anything, how much less shall the blind see? By nature we are blind, Rev.3:17-18; we are darkness, till we be made light in the Lord , Eph.5:8; darkness cannot comprehend the light, Jn.1:5; the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, I Cor.2:14; therefore the Saints pray to God to reveal to them the knowledge of Christ, and to enlighten their eyes by the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, Eph.1:17-18; man’s will being wholly enthralled into sin, as appears, Rom.6:20 & 8:6; the carnal mind is enmity to God, it is not subject to the Law of God, nor can be; how then can it will, desire, and receive grace by nature? As God commanded Pharaoh to let Israel go, yet he could not, for God hardened his heart that he could not be willing, Jn.12:39, Rom.11:32; but they confess, that unless God give faith,it’s impossible for men to believe; so then the reason men do not believe, is because God doth not give them faith, Phil.1:29; but to what purpose is it for God to give Christ to die for men’s sins, seeing as they confess, they shall have no benefit by him unless they believe, and that they cannot do without God, and God doth not give them faith, {for if he did, they could not but believe;} what great love is this which is showed to them? The substance of those famous, or rather infamous opinions, of such as hold free will, and that Christ died for the sins of all Adam’s posterity, is that God wills the salvation of all men, but he is disappointed of his will. Those whom God will save by his antecedent will, he will destroy by his consequent will; that God doth seriously intend the salvation of all persons, yet nevertheless, he calls men by a means, and time, that is, not apt, nor fit, by reason whereof those who are so called, do not follow God’s calling. That faith is partly from grace, and partly from free will; that God is bound to give all men power to believe. They distinguish between the obtaining of salvation, and the application of salvation; the first,they say, is for all; the second is only for them that believe, but the application of salvation is neither willed, nor nilled to men. That man may determine and open his own heart, and receive the word of God; that the reprobate may be saved; that the number of the Elect is not certain; that the decree of Reprobation is not peremptory; and that a Reprobate may convert himself; and that faith is not of mere grace. They bring in God speaking thus; I decree to send my Son to save all who shall believe; but who and how many they shall be, I have not determined, only I will give to all men sufficient power to believe, but he shall believe who will himself; I will send Christ to die for the sins of many, whom I know it shall not be effectual at all unto, to whom I will never give faith, and notwithstanding Christ hath satisfied for all their sins, yet they shall suffer my wrath for them forever, and much more such Babylonian gibberish.
1. Because it exempts the creature from being under the power of God, for that which gives a creature power to do as he will, when God hath done all he may unto him, that doth make him no instrument subject to God’s power; for they affirm, that God doth not work in his omnipotence, but leaves it to the free will of the creature. It is one thing to be able to do a thing by persuasion, and another to do it by power which I cannot refuse, this latter they deny.
2. It denies God’s decree to be infallible, for either God determines in such and such cases, with the circumstances thereof, or not; if not, then he cometh short of the creature herein, for he determines such things in his matters.
3. If God doth not determine and apply the creature to will and work that which he works in the creature, then the creature is the cause why God wills this or that, and by consequence is the cause why he wills this or that, but the creature is not the cause, &c., God’s working this or that, must either go before the will, and so cause it to will, or else it must follow, accomplishing that which man’s will wills, the latter makes God to follow and tend on man’s will; also it makes the will of man to have a casual force in God himself, as if God should say, I will work conversion, faith, &c., in such a person if he will.
4. If liberty of will stands in such a power, free for exercising good or evil, then Christ had not liberty of will, for he had liberty only to work that which was good; nor hath man of himself any liberty or power to come to Christ; for, saith Christ, none can come to me, except the Father draw him, Jn.6:44,37, so that they are deceived who make God by his grace to convert us. So that he leaves it in our power, whether we will be converted or no; but who can resist that which God worked by his almighty power, Eph.1:19, when he puts forth his power which raised Christ from the dead; and if this could be resisted, it were not almighty. The Apostle saith, that the power did work in him mightily. Col.1:29, Eph.1:19, 3:20.5. Because God in his good pleasure of his will, doth freely and effectually determine of all things whatsoever he will, he doth all things according to the counsel of his own will, Eph.1:11, all things are in the mind of God before they are in themselves, and what he will, he effected in his time, and nothing is done, if he wills it not to be done, Psal.115:3,35:6; Jehovah doth whatsoever he pleases. The will of God is the first cause of all things;“ for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.” Rev.4:11. He by willing makes the object willing, Jer.1:18, he hath mercy on whom he will, Rom.9:18, and there is no cause to be given of his will. It’s God that works in you to will and to do, Phil.2:13; and such as make the will of God to depend upon the creature, as if he believes, God wills his salvation, if he believes not, he wills his damnation, makes God’s will mutable, and to depend upon the act of the creature; and then it will follow, so often as the will of the creature changes, so often God changes, and then God will do this or that if man will; but whatsoever God wills in all things he wills effectually, so that he cannot in no wise be hindered or disappointed; for if God should will anything he could not obtain, there should be imperfection in God, and if he can obtain it and will not, how then doth he will it? “Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, my counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure.”Isa.46:10. Every decree of God is eternal, I Cor.2:7, Acts 15:18, and remains always immutable, Num.23:23, Prov.19:21, and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed, Acts 13:48; whom he predestinated, them he called, Rom.8:30; for God did from eternity know every several thing, with all the circumstances thereof, and knows how to apply the fittest occasion to everything, and how to effect all things according to his own immeasurable glory. He that frames the heart, observes and orders all their works, Psal.33:15, Isa.44:2, even those things that seem to happen most freely and spontaneously, God determines of according to his sovereign will, of the very heart of man. I Sam.10:9,26, Prov.21:1. Of the lot cast into the lap, and the entire disposing thereof being of the LORD, Prov.16:33; of sparrows falling, Matt.10:29-30; of lilies, flowers, and grass of the earth, Matt.6:28-30; yea of all creatures and things. Amos 4:13,Jer.14:22. “I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I the LORD do all these things.” Isa.45:7. By all which it appears that the will of God determined the certainty of all things; and if God should not determine all things, the will of God should not be simply and universally the first cause; and to deny him to be the first cause, implies that there are two first beginnings, or more than two, which cannot be truth. And for any to say, that man hath power to resist all God can work for his conversion, is to put grace in man’s power, {and not man’s will under the power of grace;} and this is to say, that man is able to frustrate God’s counsel concerning his conversion, and that man possesses a power to resist all that God can work herein; and this is to affirm, that man hath power to frustrate God’s counsel; and if it be so, will it not follow that man hath power to make God a liar? If God by his omnipotent power inclines the wills of men whither he wills, then he hath them more in his power than man hath; then his will decreeing is the cause necessity followed, and the will of the creature is not the cause of the necessities of things. The Scriptures declare that God works all things after the counsel of his will {notman’s will} and that the LORD hath made all things for himself. “The LORD hath made all things for himself; yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.” Prov.16:4.
Objection: Then you take away the liberty of the will, if man have no power to do otherwise.
Answer: That which doth {not having power to do otherwise} from second causes,compelling it so to do in that it is not free; God’s will in himself is the first cause of all things, and this omnipotent will of God doth determine the creature.
2. Men ground the freedom of will falsely, for the freedom of will as it is a faculty voluntary or elective, doth not require this indifference of the inclination in exercise, for it is bound by God’s decree, so as not anything can be done but what he hath determined, yet nothing can satisfy some, unless it be granted, that they have power of will to cross God’s decree.
3. If the cause why God chooses me {and not another} is because I will, &c., then it is not merely from his will, and then you deny the freedom of God’s will. Also if a man hath liberty of will to resist God’s will and work, so as God shall not convert him, it will follow that when we are converted, we convert ourselves, which is contrary to the Scriptures; and do not they give the Scriptures the lie, that say the will of an unregenerate man may be free to righteousness, will it, and embrace it when it is proposed; but if a seeing eye were in darkness, it could not discern anything, how much less shall the blind see? By nature we are blind, Rev.3:17-18; we are darkness, till we be made light in the Lord , Eph.5:8; darkness cannot comprehend the light, Jn.1:5; the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, I Cor.2:14; therefore the Saints pray to God to reveal to them the knowledge of Christ, and to enlighten their eyes by the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, Eph.1:17-18; man’s will being wholly enthralled into sin, as appears, Rom.6:20 & 8:6; the carnal mind is enmity to God, it is not subject to the Law of God, nor can be; how then can it will, desire, and receive grace by nature? As God commanded Pharaoh to let Israel go, yet he could not, for God hardened his heart that he could not be willing, Jn.12:39, Rom.11:32; but they confess, that unless God give faith,it’s impossible for men to believe; so then the reason men do not believe, is because God doth not give them faith, Phil.1:29; but to what purpose is it for God to give Christ to die for men’s sins, seeing as they confess, they shall have no benefit by him unless they believe, and that they cannot do without God, and God doth not give them faith, {for if he did, they could not but believe;} what great love is this which is showed to them? The substance of those famous, or rather infamous opinions, of such as hold free will, and that Christ died for the sins of all Adam’s posterity, is that God wills the salvation of all men, but he is disappointed of his will. Those whom God will save by his antecedent will, he will destroy by his consequent will; that God doth seriously intend the salvation of all persons, yet nevertheless, he calls men by a means, and time, that is, not apt, nor fit, by reason whereof those who are so called, do not follow God’s calling. That faith is partly from grace, and partly from free will; that God is bound to give all men power to believe. They distinguish between the obtaining of salvation, and the application of salvation; the first,they say, is for all; the second is only for them that believe, but the application of salvation is neither willed, nor nilled to men. That man may determine and open his own heart, and receive the word of God; that the reprobate may be saved; that the number of the Elect is not certain; that the decree of Reprobation is not peremptory; and that a Reprobate may convert himself; and that faith is not of mere grace. They bring in God speaking thus; I decree to send my Son to save all who shall believe; but who and how many they shall be, I have not determined, only I will give to all men sufficient power to believe, but he shall believe who will himself; I will send Christ to die for the sins of many, whom I know it shall not be effectual at all unto, to whom I will never give faith, and notwithstanding Christ hath satisfied for all their sins, yet they shall suffer my wrath for them forever, and much more such Babylonian gibberish.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Abraham is the seed of Adam, Read Lk 3 Genealogy. The Abraham has a Spiritual Seed, a People with God given Faith from the circumcised heart, and all with that same Faith are Abrahams Seed regardless of ethnicity, its a spiritual thing Gal 3:7
Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Abraham didnt give them faith, it wasnt in his loins lol
I just saw this post which I missed, so I will address this first thing tomorrow the Lord willing.
@jeremiah1five
The several promises to Abraham and his seed are in Genesis, recorded by Moses, but given 430 years before Sinai (Gen 12:7; notice "thy seed; 13:15-16; Again, notice seed; 15:5,13,18; again, seed; 17:8-10,19; again, seed; 21:12; notice~ for in Isaac shall thy seed be called; 22:17-18; notice again seed; 24:7, and of course would you not know it, seed once again!). All of the promises of God are in Christ and his seed, which are Jews and Gentiles, as we shall see, even if you do not see this and confess it, some will.
When read carefully and understood correctly, the promises were chiefly through Christ. Therefore, what Paul has said and will say about Gentiles being blessed in Abraham is based on the very wording of the Law that the Jews and you Jeremiah take so much pride in!
These promises are very specifically made to Abraham and his singular seed, which is Christ.
Jeremiah, God’s promises were not to plural descendants through any of his eight sons, but rather in his singular descendant, Jesus Christ, in whom God had chosen all the elect in eternity.
Note Paul’s dogmatism about this wording, though he had used the plural children (3:7), which he will tie together neatly with the plural elect in the singular Christ shortly (3:29).
Every one of the promises should be understood spiritually first in Christ and His elect. Any fulfillment in Israel is beggarly, carnal, inferior, and shadowy compared to Christ. The two seeds – of Jews and Gentiles – are united in one seed spiritually in Christ (3:28). This is glorious news for Gentiles, especially those being treated as inferior by Judaizers! This greatly despises Zionism, exalts the kingdom of Jesus Christ, and refutes Futurism.
What are the promises God made to Abraham and his seed that Gentile believers can claim? There are twelve specific promises to Abraham and his seed, with some duplication (Genesis 12:7; 13:15; 13:16; 15:5; 15:18; 17:7; 17:8; 17:19; 21:12; 22:17; 22:18; 24:7).
Even the promise of land is to be viewed in Christ, for Abraham never owned any land, never wanted any land, and only desired heaven ( Acts 7:3-5; Heb 11:8-16).
Even the promise of an innumerable family is to be viewed in Christ, which is realized by the multitude that no man can number of elect in heaven (Rev 5:9-10; 7:9-10).
Even the promise of possessing the gate of his enemies is to be viewed in Christ, which is realized by our Lord’s great victory over satan, sin, death, and hell (Gen 3:15; Matt 16:18; Luke 1:21-22; I Cor 15:25-26; Col 2:14-15).
Even the promise of blessing all nations is to be viewed in Christ, which is realized by justification by grace through faith for Gentiles (Gal 3:8; Rom 1:5; 16:26; Rev 5:9-10).
Counterfeit Bible versions, like the New American Standard Version, the New International Version, the New King James Version, and The Message, and hundreds more, corrupt these sweet promises. Every modern version uses the plural “descendants” or “children” or the indefinite “offspring” for Abraham’s promises, which reveals indeed a great battle for the Bible. How can men endorse a Bible that has “seed” in Gal 3:16 and “descendants” in Genesis? This shows you the character and commitment of modern Bible translators to truth. They make a translation of a particular word in Gal 3:16 and then deny it. While seed can mean plural descendant, and seeds is never used anywhere in the Bible, yet we know from Genesis 3:15-16 that the Holy Spirit can distinguish the two.
Since Paul argued justification by free grace on the certainty that the Old Testament must read the singular, “Seed,” then any plural noun in Genesis is a profane perversion. Such a Bible is not scripture, for it makes Paul’s and the Holy Spirit’s argument a lie. Such a Bible is not scripture, for it contradicts itself (Pr 8:8; John 10:35; I John 2:21). Such a Bible replaces Paul’s doctrine of salvation by grace with salvation by race. Such a Bible replaces Paul’s doctrine of salvation by grace with nationalism by race. Such a Bible proves that modern editors are either very ignorant or malicious liars. Such a Bible promotes Jewish fables that Paul opposed 2000 years ago (Titus 1:14). Such a Bible steals the good news and joyful sound of God’s blessings on Gentiles! Such a Bible relegates the kingdom and churches of Christ to a pitiful after-thought! Such a Bible starves saints by removing the every word of God they need (Luke 4:4). Such a Bible exalts those people who claim to be Jews in synagogues (Rev 2:9; 3:9).
I spent a little time on this one point, now it's time to move on and finish answering your post.
Consider Paul.......... was Paul was born in Tarsus (now in the south east of Turkey) to a Jewish family. He had a dual identity as lots of Jews did in antiquity. He had a Jewish education, a Jewish way of life and abided by the Law of Moses. Paul knew exactly what tribes he was from, so, not so sure your theory holds up, as a matter of fact, it does not. While many Jews were indeed dispersed for many generations, yet many of them still retain their Jewish way of life among the Gentiles where they lived, so much so, Paul had even a harder time of converting them then he did the Gentiles! Time would fail me to go into detail, but we can if need to. Your third group of people that you have invented to escape the truth that Gentiles were indeed included in the promises of God through Jesus Christ is not there in the scriptures as far as to whom Paul and others went unto with the gospel.
Coming back to finish, if you want to wait to respond.
The Old testament must be interpreted by the New Testament, and they are by a Jewish apostle to the Gentiles, named Paul. Let us consider what he wrote.
Galatians 3:16
“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.”The several promises to Abraham and his seed are in Genesis, recorded by Moses, but given 430 years before Sinai (Gen 12:7; notice "thy seed; 13:15-16; Again, notice seed; 15:5,13,18; again, seed; 17:8-10,19; again, seed; 21:12; notice~ for in Isaac shall thy seed be called; 22:17-18; notice again seed; 24:7, and of course would you not know it, seed once again!). All of the promises of God are in Christ and his seed, which are Jews and Gentiles, as we shall see, even if you do not see this and confess it, some will.
When read carefully and understood correctly, the promises were chiefly through Christ. Therefore, what Paul has said and will say about Gentiles being blessed in Abraham is based on the very wording of the Law that the Jews and you Jeremiah take so much pride in!
These promises are very specifically made to Abraham and his singular seed, which is Christ.
Jeremiah, God’s promises were not to plural descendants through any of his eight sons, but rather in his singular descendant, Jesus Christ, in whom God had chosen all the elect in eternity.
Note Paul’s dogmatism about this wording, though he had used the plural children (3:7), which he will tie together neatly with the plural elect in the singular Christ shortly (3:29).
Every one of the promises should be understood spiritually first in Christ and His elect. Any fulfillment in Israel is beggarly, carnal, inferior, and shadowy compared to Christ. The two seeds – of Jews and Gentiles – are united in one seed spiritually in Christ (3:28). This is glorious news for Gentiles, especially those being treated as inferior by Judaizers! This greatly despises Zionism, exalts the kingdom of Jesus Christ, and refutes Futurism.
What are the promises God made to Abraham and his seed that Gentile believers can claim? There are twelve specific promises to Abraham and his seed, with some duplication (Genesis 12:7; 13:15; 13:16; 15:5; 15:18; 17:7; 17:8; 17:19; 21:12; 22:17; 22:18; 24:7).
Even the promise of land is to be viewed in Christ, for Abraham never owned any land, never wanted any land, and only desired heaven ( Acts 7:3-5; Heb 11:8-16).
Even the promise of an innumerable family is to be viewed in Christ, which is realized by the multitude that no man can number of elect in heaven (Rev 5:9-10; 7:9-10).
Even the promise of possessing the gate of his enemies is to be viewed in Christ, which is realized by our Lord’s great victory over satan, sin, death, and hell (Gen 3:15; Matt 16:18; Luke 1:21-22; I Cor 15:25-26; Col 2:14-15).
Even the promise of blessing all nations is to be viewed in Christ, which is realized by justification by grace through faith for Gentiles (Gal 3:8; Rom 1:5; 16:26; Rev 5:9-10).
Counterfeit Bible versions, like the New American Standard Version, the New International Version, the New King James Version, and The Message, and hundreds more, corrupt these sweet promises. Every modern version uses the plural “descendants” or “children” or the indefinite “offspring” for Abraham’s promises, which reveals indeed a great battle for the Bible. How can men endorse a Bible that has “seed” in Gal 3:16 and “descendants” in Genesis? This shows you the character and commitment of modern Bible translators to truth. They make a translation of a particular word in Gal 3:16 and then deny it. While seed can mean plural descendant, and seeds is never used anywhere in the Bible, yet we know from Genesis 3:15-16 that the Holy Spirit can distinguish the two.
Since Paul argued justification by free grace on the certainty that the Old Testament must read the singular, “Seed,” then any plural noun in Genesis is a profane perversion. Such a Bible is not scripture, for it makes Paul’s and the Holy Spirit’s argument a lie. Such a Bible is not scripture, for it contradicts itself (Pr 8:8; John 10:35; I John 2:21). Such a Bible replaces Paul’s doctrine of salvation by grace with salvation by race. Such a Bible replaces Paul’s doctrine of salvation by grace with nationalism by race. Such a Bible proves that modern editors are either very ignorant or malicious liars. Such a Bible promotes Jewish fables that Paul opposed 2000 years ago (Titus 1:14). Such a Bible steals the good news and joyful sound of God’s blessings on Gentiles! Such a Bible relegates the kingdom and churches of Christ to a pitiful after-thought! Such a Bible starves saints by removing the every word of God they need (Luke 4:4). Such a Bible exalts those people who claim to be Jews in synagogues (Rev 2:9; 3:9).
So wrong, and this was just proven wrong~reread it again! We must get past this all important truth that God's promises were to Abraham and his "seed" which is Christ, not to the Jewish people, for many of them were not the children of God, and still are not.
I spent a little time on this one point, now it's time to move on and finish answering your post.
First, Jeremiah, we are not mislead by the fact the NT was written in Greek~we know that Gentiles (those not born by nature a Jew) are included in the promises of the scriptures to God's people through Jesus Christ. You and others have concocted a third group of people, that are not pure Gentiles, neither are they pure Jews, yet to you close enough to being a Jews, that you believe these are the very people Paul was sent to and not to the very Gentiles that Israel was to abstain from during the OT period.
Consider Paul.......... was Paul was born in Tarsus (now in the south east of Turkey) to a Jewish family. He had a dual identity as lots of Jews did in antiquity. He had a Jewish education, a Jewish way of life and abided by the Law of Moses. Paul knew exactly what tribes he was from, so, not so sure your theory holds up, as a matter of fact, it does not. While many Jews were indeed dispersed for many generations, yet many of them still retain their Jewish way of life among the Gentiles where they lived, so much so, Paul had even a harder time of converting them then he did the Gentiles! Time would fail me to go into detail, but we can if need to. Your third group of people that you have invented to escape the truth that Gentiles were indeed included in the promises of God through Jesus Christ is not there in the scriptures as far as to whom Paul and others went unto with the gospel.
Coming back to finish, if you want to wait to respond.
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The word "see" means "perceive" in the Lord Jesus Christ's marvelous saying as seen in the following wonderful exchange with Nicodemus:
| Speaker | Holy Scripture | Summary | ||
| Nicodemus: | "Rabbi, we see that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” (John 3:2) | I perceive that God sent you, Teacher, for the signs you do are because God is with you! | ||
| Lord Jesus: | "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born from above he cannot see the Kingdom of God." (John 3:3) | One perceives Me because of the exclusive work of God inside of such a one |
See, Lord and God Jesus Christ produces understanding and makes known to us Christians that we truly "understand or have knowledge of the kingdom of God" only because God births us anew.
See, Lord and God Jesus Christ declares that without being "born again" you never righteously perceive King Jesus of the Kingdom of God.
You used the word "see" to mean "perceive" when you recently posted during our correspondence about John 3:3:
while your heart denies "see" to mean "perceive" when used by Jesus as recorded in John 3:3.
You perceive Jesus as entrusting Himself to you in your free-will to choose Jesus, yet the Apostle declares to us followers of the Way (John 14:6) that "Jesus, on His part, was not entrusting Himself to them, for He knew all men, and because He did not need anyone to testify concerning man, for He Himself knew what was in man" (John 1:24-25).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE KING JESUS CHRIST OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD, THE SAVIOR WHO DOES IT ALL!!!
When were you personally born again?
@jeremiah1five
First, there are two, and only two groups of people in this world as far as the word of God is concerned, Those that are Jews by nature, and those that are Gentiles in the flesh, or by nature.
Here Paul makes a very clear distinction between himself and the Gentiles in the flesh, even though Paul himself was one of millions of Jews born and lived in these Gentiles nations, he still considered himself a Jews by nature/birth, as distinct from the Gentiles, who were not part of the Jewish genealogy going back to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Jeremiah, your third group you have invented of heathenistic, mixed heritage Hebrews living in the Gentile nations being heavily infused by Greek culture~you want folks to believe they were the only ones God sent Paul to be a light to them as though they are part of the promised seed~and leaving the true Gentiles nations as pertaining to the flesh, still any without hope, even in light of so many scriptures as we shall consider moving forward, the Lord willing.
Question for you to answer directly: In light of Ephesians 2:11-22, some of the verses you quoted yourself ~ do you believe there are Jews by nature, (meaning by birth) and Gentiles by nature, each coming together to make one holy spiritual temple for the Spirit of God to dwell in as taught by Paul in Ephesians 2:11-22.
Jeremiah, Gentiles in flesh, is "not" the same as heathenistic, mixed heritage Hebrews living in the Gentile nations, which you want us to believe as a fulfillment of Paul's mission given to him of God, not even close.
Jeremiah, I highlighted certain words above that we shall start with in this post.
First, there are two, and only two groups of people in this world as far as the word of God is concerned, Those that are Jews by nature, and those that are Gentiles in the flesh, or by nature.
Galatians 2:15
“We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,”Here Paul makes a very clear distinction between himself and the Gentiles in the flesh, even though Paul himself was one of millions of Jews born and lived in these Gentiles nations, he still considered himself a Jews by nature/birth, as distinct from the Gentiles, who were not part of the Jewish genealogy going back to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Jeremiah, your third group you have invented of heathenistic, mixed heritage Hebrews living in the Gentile nations being heavily infused by Greek culture~you want folks to believe they were the only ones God sent Paul to be a light to them as though they are part of the promised seed~and leaving the true Gentiles nations as pertaining to the flesh, still any without hope, even in light of so many scriptures as we shall consider moving forward, the Lord willing.
Question for you to answer directly: In light of Ephesians 2:11-22, some of the verses you quoted yourself ~ do you believe there are Jews by nature, (meaning by birth) and Gentiles by nature, each coming together to make one holy spiritual temple for the Spirit of God to dwell in as taught by Paul in Ephesians 2:11-22.
Jeremiah, Gentiles in flesh, is "not" the same as heathenistic, mixed heritage Hebrews living in the Gentile nations, which you want us to believe as a fulfillment of Paul's mission given to him of God, not even close.
I want to come back and address this separately.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
@praise_yeshua @synergy
Before the Abraham Covenant everyone was an "Adamite."
1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. Genesis 5:1.
At this time in early human history the Bible says God was going to destroy man, but ONLY Noah found grace (of the LORD.)
7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. Genesis 6:7–8.
It doesn't mention his wife, or his sons or his sons' wives, but Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.
9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God. Genesis 6:9.
Thus, of all the sons, daughters, aunts, and uncles, brothers and sisters were all born from Adam and Eve. The LORD populated the earth by allowing incest even up to Abram the Hebrew (Gen. 14:13) as he had married his half-sister, Sarai.
Although it says, "then men began to call upon the Name of the LORD." by the time we get to chapter 6 everyone had been corrupted and God decided to destroy man with a flood whom He had made/created - including those who had "called upon the LORD." Seems there was no five men who, according to Abraham, were righteous enough to be protected.
26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD. Genesis 4:26.
But Noah was a just man and "walked with the LORD."
At this point everyone was an Adamite as everyone all came from the union of two people: Adam and Eve.
But through the narrative it is clear there are two groups of people. One group is the seed of the serpent, and the other is the seed of the woman. Evil seed, and good seed. Disobedient people, and obedient people.
"Nation" does not mean "non-Hebrew." Not before Abram was there even such a word as "Hebrew" which when it is found in Scripture did not mean "Gentile" because it was used of Abram the Hebrew. (Gen. 14:13.)
The first mention of "nations" is found here:
5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations. Genesis 10:5.
The Hebrew word is "gôy." According to Strong it merely means "massing" as in "troops" or "groups of people." Eber was not born yet. And "Hebrew" - "Eber" is where his name begins to be interpreted and understood that Eber's bloodline is understood as meaning "Hebrew." But that comes later after he is born to become the great-great-great grandfather of Abram the Hebrew (or family of Eber.) Until Eber is born and having kids of his own, whose kids for identification purposes were just called "Eberite" or just "Hebrew. But there was something special about Eber the Hebrew. So, the use of "nations" or "Gentile" at this time in history did not mean "Hebrew" because Eber the Hebrew was not born yet.
Before the Abraham Covenant everyone was an "Adamite."
1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. Genesis 5:1.
At this time in early human history the Bible says God was going to destroy man, but ONLY Noah found grace (of the LORD.)
7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. Genesis 6:7–8.
It doesn't mention his wife, or his sons or his sons' wives, but Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.
9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God. Genesis 6:9.
Thus, of all the sons, daughters, aunts, and uncles, brothers and sisters were all born from Adam and Eve. The LORD populated the earth by allowing incest even up to Abram the Hebrew (Gen. 14:13) as he had married his half-sister, Sarai.
Although it says, "then men began to call upon the Name of the LORD." by the time we get to chapter 6 everyone had been corrupted and God decided to destroy man with a flood whom He had made/created - including those who had "called upon the LORD." Seems there was no five men who, according to Abraham, were righteous enough to be protected.
26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD. Genesis 4:26.
But Noah was a just man and "walked with the LORD."
At this point everyone was an Adamite as everyone all came from the union of two people: Adam and Eve.
But through the narrative it is clear there are two groups of people. One group is the seed of the serpent, and the other is the seed of the woman. Evil seed, and good seed. Disobedient people, and obedient people.
"Nation" does not mean "non-Hebrew." Not before Abram was there even such a word as "Hebrew" which when it is found in Scripture did not mean "Gentile" because it was used of Abram the Hebrew. (Gen. 14:13.)
The first mention of "nations" is found here:
5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations. Genesis 10:5.
The Hebrew word is "gôy." According to Strong it merely means "massing" as in "troops" or "groups of people." Eber was not born yet. And "Hebrew" - "Eber" is where his name begins to be interpreted and understood that Eber's bloodline is understood as meaning "Hebrew." But that comes later after he is born to become the great-great-great grandfather of Abram the Hebrew (or family of Eber.) Until Eber is born and having kids of his own, whose kids for identification purposes were just called "Eberite" or just "Hebrew. But there was something special about Eber the Hebrew. So, the use of "nations" or "Gentile" at this time in history did not mean "Hebrew" because Eber the Hebrew was not born yet.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
The more strict Jews had attitude towards Samaritans because they were the offspring between the ten northern kingdom tribes and Gentiles (Assyrians, etc.) God Promised Israel that they would receive His Spirit, and when the Holy Spirit arrived (Acts 2), the Spirit of Promise baptized Jews and mixed heritage Jews into the body of Christ and they became saved. The Spirit was NOT promised to Gentiles. So, either these so-called Gentiles are mixed heritage or God lied.
My position is God did not lie, and since there is no Scripture of God promising His Spirit to Gentiles, then these "Gentiles" would have to be mixed Heritage Hebrews of the two southern kingdom tribes and Babylonians and Assyrians, and other Gentiles. In the nearly 600 years since they were conquered and exiled back to Babylon, and since there is no mention of the two tribes mingling and having offspring in the Bible, these "Gentiles" are not non-Hebrew Gentiles, but mixed heritage Hebrews and Babylonian and other Gentile-descent.
No Jew or Jewish Christian would ever seek to circumcise any "Gentile" unless that "Gentile" has Hebrew roots. No Jew or Jewish Christian would ever command or instruct non-Hebrew Gentiles to obey the Law of Moses, but it would be natural for a mixed heritage Hebrew to both be circumcised and commanded to obey the Law unless there was Hebrew blood in their veins.
For those who claim these "Gentiles" are non-Hebrew will have to accept the position that God lied, Joel is a false prophet, and there is a Scripture of God promising non-Hebrews His Spirit and they just haven't found it yet in the Bible.
Me, I cannot call God a liar. He keeps His Promises and since there is no Scripture saying non-Hebrew Gentiles were promised His Spirit - which is necessary to be born again - then these "Gentiles" are mixed Hebrew like the Samaritans and that they are still seed of Abraham (and Gentile) and heirs according to the promise.
Saul as rabbi and Pharisee would never try to get non-Hebrew Gentiles to be circumcised or to obey the Law. Saul was seen as a Jew who was obedient to the Law of Moses and would not tell Gentiles to obey the Law of Moses when all the Hebrew people know and understand and accept that the God of Abraham made covenant with the Hebrew people called the children of Israel.
All three Hebrew covenants are between Abram and his seed, a people called the children of Israel.
If these "Gentiles" were non-Hebrew and Saul tried to have them circumcised he would lose all credibility. But Saul wasn't sent by Jesus TO the Gentiles, but among the Gentiles where the seed of Abraham were scattered by God and taken away exiled by both the Assyrians and the Babylonians. Only a "remnant" returned with Nehemiah and later with Ezra, but the millions of Jews remained in Babylonia and Assyria and Gentile lands in-between and remained there for about 29-35 generations. Of course there would be mixed marriages among the Gentiles.
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. Acts 21:24.
God does not lie. He promised Israel and ONLY ISRAEL His Spirit.
Show me a Scripture of God promising His Spirit to be given to non-Hebrew Gentiles in the Old Testament Hebrew Scripture and I'll come over to your side. Un til then, you hold to a belief that God lied and DID promise His Spirit to non-Hebrews and you just haven't found that promise in the Bible yet.
Well, hurry up. Jesus is coming soon and I wouldn't want to contradict God and call Him a liar without proof!
Go for it!
@jeremiah1five
Acts 11:1-18
"And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God. And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him, Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them. But Peter rehearsed the matter from the beginning, and expounded it by order unto them, saying, I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me: Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat. But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth. But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven. And, behold, immediately there were three men already come unto the house where I was, sent from Caesarea unto me. And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house: And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter; Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved. And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life."
This truth is all through their OT scriptures, yet hidden from their eyes. There are literally hundred of scriptures testifying to these days, so many it is not easy to know where to start.
In Hebrews 12 are two mountains by God’s creative design, both are literal and allegorical. Rather than the fearful, condemning Sinai of old, Christians have the new of Sion. The new covenant is based on figurative Mount Zion – location of earthly Jerusalem. As you think on the New Testament Sion, it is fabulously superior by many contrasts. God’s use of these literal and figurative terms would have meant much to Hebrews. Do not misunderstand anything here. There is nothing more real than the Sion above. The present tense verb, are,is shocking, but true, for there is a spiritual, real connection.
Our citizenship is true and guaranteed already by our names in the Book of Life. Our adoption into the family of God is true regardless of our location, tongue or kindred. (Eph 3:15). We are now kings and priests by Jesus’ blood to boldly approach God (Rev 1:5-6). Already in this epistle we are connected to our forerunner in heaven (Heb 6:17-20).
.
Paul wrote, We are members of His body, of his flesh, and of his bones (Eph 5:30).
Old Testament Zion was a name for Jerusalem (II Sam 5:6-7; Ps 51:18; 76:2; 102:21). It included at least one hill or mountain of Jerusalem (Psalm 2:6; 133:3; Lam 5:18). It was also known as the stronghold or fort of Zion (II Sam 5:7,9; 48:12; II Chr 32:5) It is referenced in the scriptures for its beauty, strength, and safety (Psalm 48:1-3). But it also included the temple worship of Jehovah, so it could include Mt. Moriah.
New Testament Sion (Zion) is spiritually the church and kingdom of Jesus (Rev 14:1). Do not overlook the context here – general assembly and church of the Firstborn. The citizenship roll, or members roll, is the book of life of all the elect out of every nation, tongue, and kindred, not just Jews, but Gentiles as well. (Luke 10:20). The gospel tells the daughter of Sion that her King has arrived (Matt 21:5; Jn 12:15).
The heavenly Jerusalem, the spiritual city/church of God’s elect, is being populated by believers in Jesus, out of every nations and kindred! (Gal 4:25-28; Isaiah 2:2-3; 62:1-2; Micah 4:1-2; Acts 15:18). He will soon have all the inhabitants of it in one place forever (Eph 1:9-11; 3:15).
The city is new Jerusalem, the church of Jews and Gentiles (Rev 3:12; 21:2,10-14). What is a city? A place where citizens unite for mutual benefits, defense, and joy. A royal city? Where citizens under a King have even much greater benefits and joy. The new covenant includes countless elect angels in some way now closer than the old.
Angels under the old covenant appeared and did great things for special occasions, but their appearances were more dreadful and frightening than comfort and help; angels were terrifying creatures in the old but our servants in the new (Heb 1:13-14).
I'll come back and finish.
Jeremiah, these facts are biblical truths and testified by God's word, and we will add, they are not overlooked by men and women who know the scriptures, we acknowledge these truths, We also understand that even the apostles did not grasps theses truths (the Gentiles being made ONE with the Jews in the body of Christ) fully until after Acts 15 meeting, but begin to see a mystery hidden in the scriptures after Acts 10, with the conversion of Cornelius who was a centurion of the band called the Italian band~ a Gentile by birth ~ like any truth, it took a while for it to fully be understood even by the apostles.
Acts 10:45
“And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.”Acts 10:34,35
“Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.”Acts 11:1-18
"And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God. And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him, Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them. But Peter rehearsed the matter from the beginning, and expounded it by order unto them, saying, I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me: Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat. But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth. But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven. And, behold, immediately there were three men already come unto the house where I was, sent from Caesarea unto me. And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house: And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter; Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved. And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life."
While I will not dispute your claims concerning the twelve tribes of Israel, each one being represented in Acts 2, it truly has no bearing one way, or another, yet they still were not enlighten fully to the truth that God's people were not only the Jewish people; the City of Jerusalem the place where men came to worship; and the temple being the house of God where he dwelled. They were in for a big awakening ~ a period of Reformation that was going to take place during the days of the apostles. Leaving the Jews' religion behind (Judaism), for the religion of Jesus Christ-called Christianity. A so much better system to be under where there is now no more remembrance of sin, our sins are put away by the offering of the body of Jesus Christ.
This truth is all through their OT scriptures, yet hidden from their eyes. There are literally hundred of scriptures testifying to these days, so many it is not easy to know where to start.
Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
When we sing songs like, Marching To Zion, we sing of this heavenly city of God. How great is Sion? It is the city of the living God where Jesus rules over the universe.In Hebrews 12 are two mountains by God’s creative design, both are literal and allegorical. Rather than the fearful, condemning Sinai of old, Christians have the new of Sion. The new covenant is based on figurative Mount Zion – location of earthly Jerusalem. As you think on the New Testament Sion, it is fabulously superior by many contrasts. God’s use of these literal and figurative terms would have meant much to Hebrews. Do not misunderstand anything here. There is nothing more real than the Sion above. The present tense verb, are,is shocking, but true, for there is a spiritual, real connection.
Our citizenship is true and guaranteed already by our names in the Book of Life. Our adoption into the family of God is true regardless of our location, tongue or kindred. (Eph 3:15). We are now kings and priests by Jesus’ blood to boldly approach God (Rev 1:5-6). Already in this epistle we are connected to our forerunner in heaven (Heb 6:17-20).
.
Paul wrote, We are members of His body, of his flesh, and of his bones (Eph 5:30).
Old Testament Zion was a name for Jerusalem (II Sam 5:6-7; Ps 51:18; 76:2; 102:21). It included at least one hill or mountain of Jerusalem (Psalm 2:6; 133:3; Lam 5:18). It was also known as the stronghold or fort of Zion (II Sam 5:7,9; 48:12; II Chr 32:5) It is referenced in the scriptures for its beauty, strength, and safety (Psalm 48:1-3). But it also included the temple worship of Jehovah, so it could include Mt. Moriah.
New Testament Sion (Zion) is spiritually the church and kingdom of Jesus (Rev 14:1). Do not overlook the context here – general assembly and church of the Firstborn. The citizenship roll, or members roll, is the book of life of all the elect out of every nation, tongue, and kindred, not just Jews, but Gentiles as well. (Luke 10:20). The gospel tells the daughter of Sion that her King has arrived (Matt 21:5; Jn 12:15).
The heavenly Jerusalem, the spiritual city/church of God’s elect, is being populated by believers in Jesus, out of every nations and kindred! (Gal 4:25-28; Isaiah 2:2-3; 62:1-2; Micah 4:1-2; Acts 15:18). He will soon have all the inhabitants of it in one place forever (Eph 1:9-11; 3:15).
The city is new Jerusalem, the church of Jews and Gentiles (Rev 3:12; 21:2,10-14). What is a city? A place where citizens unite for mutual benefits, defense, and joy. A royal city? Where citizens under a King have even much greater benefits and joy. The new covenant includes countless elect angels in some way now closer than the old.
Angels under the old covenant appeared and did great things for special occasions, but their appearances were more dreadful and frightening than comfort and help; angels were terrifying creatures in the old but our servants in the new (Heb 1:13-14).
I'll come back and finish.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Thats poor reasoning, the word should isnt in the original Its the greek word chōreō:
- to go forward, advance, proceed, succeed,to make progress, gain ground
So its that they come to repentance, if should is added, it denotes it must happen. Must and should are synonyms
And Peter is talking to and about the elect in that verse, by using the words "usward" and beloved
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
When addressed as beloved, elect in 1 Pet 1:2 and having like faith in 2 Pet 1:1
And if you pay attention to the immediate context, the scoffers and others are doomed for perdition vs 5-7
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 ;But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
So logically, why would God be longsuffering towards people doomed for perdition to all the sudden chage their destiny, and be given the Gift of repentance unto life ?
Gods Longsuffering towards His Elect is Salvation Vs 2 Pet 3:15
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
So your comment was without understanding
@jeremiah1five
While I agree the Gospel was written to the Jews, they are not by no means limited to them, as a matter of fact, soon after the gospels were given, God left the Jewish nation for good, never to return, and went unto the Gentiles to call out of them a people for his name, the times of the Gentiles is almost fulfilled, if it is not already, only God knows ~ for they too have forsaken God for the idols of this world, and God will not spare them, no more than he did the Jews in and around 70 A.D, even though he officially left them when Christ arose from the dead and the veil of the temple was rent from top to bottom.
I'm not saying that no Jews are being saved since then, of course they are, yet, not in comparison to the Gentiles world.
"that was because the majority of Jews and mixed heritage Jews lived in Gentile lands."
That's not why he went unto the Gentiles land, let Paul tell us....
Jeremiah the Gentiles are part of the true tabernacle of David that had fallen in Adam, but raised up in Jesus Christ, the True David of the OT scriptures!
Jeremiah you do err not knowing the scriptures, being blinded by Jewish fables.
I want to come back and make one final post, I have a meeting that I must attend to.
John 17:20, and other scriptures in John 17, would include those who were Gentiles by birth/nature, for Peter officially opened the door to the Gentiles in Acts 10, per instruction by God to Peter.
While I agree the Gospel was written to the Jews, they are not by no means limited to them, as a matter of fact, soon after the gospels were given, God left the Jewish nation for good, never to return, and went unto the Gentiles to call out of them a people for his name, the times of the Gentiles is almost fulfilled, if it is not already, only God knows ~ for they too have forsaken God for the idols of this world, and God will not spare them, no more than he did the Jews in and around 70 A.D, even though he officially left them when Christ arose from the dead and the veil of the temple was rent from top to bottom.
Matthew 27:51
“And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;”I'm not saying that no Jews are being saved since then, of course they are, yet, not in comparison to the Gentiles world.
His name is Paul to us Gentiles! That's his Hebrews name (Saul) , yet he went by the name of Paul, even among the other apostles!
2 Peter 3:15
“And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;”"that was because the majority of Jews and mixed heritage Jews lived in Gentile lands."
That's not why he went unto the Gentiles land, let Paul tell us....
Acts 15:12-14
“Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them. And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.”Jeremiah the Gentiles are part of the true tabernacle of David that had fallen in Adam, but raised up in Jesus Christ, the True David of the OT scriptures!
Psalms 89:19,20 (read all of Psalms 89:1-39 for the sake of time)
“Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people. I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:”Jeremiah you do err not knowing the scriptures, being blinded by Jewish fables.
I want to come back and make one final post, I have a meeting that I must attend to.
The true Lord Jesus declares that God causes a person to believe in King Jesus of the Kingdom of God for Lord Jesus eliminates the "work of man" when he replies to the crowd:
| Speaker | Holy Scripture | Contextual Summary | ||
| the crowd: | "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” (John 6:28) | How do I do the work of man causing the work of God in me? | ||
| Lord Jesus: | "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29) | One believing in Me whom the Father has sent is the work of God alone inside of such a one |
My Leader Jesus Christ means exactly what he said when he said that that you believe in Him whom He has sent is the work of God!
You may quote your John Calvin's words "People who infer from this passage that faith is God’s gift are mistaken, for Christ does not show here what God produces in us, but what God wants and requires from us" for your free-willian philosophy support structure as intentionally frequent as you already have committed yourself to quoting him, but you remain quoting falsehood. Your John Calvin is a stranger to me (John 10:5).
You are proven wrong about your "faith is a work of man" doctrine because Lord Jesus Christ conveys "by grace you are saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) and "faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8).
As a blessed Christian in Christ, I believe in Lord Jesus Christ, and I follow the Way (John 14:6), who is the Truth (John 14:6), and God has me here proclaiming Christian doctrine. Lord Jesus Christ is Life (John 14:6)!
@jeremiah1five
Jesus, as we all know, was born under the law....
Being born under the law, he was subject to all of the teachings under the law, one being concerning that the Jews were separate from all other nations, and were forbidden to go unto them. Their dietaries laws were an example of their separation from them, per Acts 10, the only reason the dietaties laws were given. So, yes Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of Israel, but that was soon to change, a hidden mystery in their own scriptures, was about to be reveal to some of them after the death of the Lord Jesus, even though he had a few times begin to open up this mystery, which mystery is still hidden from your eyes. John 3:16: 4:21; 10:16; 12:32; etc.
I can provide so many scriptures showing you that the Gentiles are born as Gentiles by nature with no connection to Abraham, other than a spiritual connected by faith. By faith he is our father more than he is a Jews which is by nature only! We both belong to one and the same generation, which generation is of kind, not time! There's truly are only two generations of people living in this world, a generation of evil, wicked children of the old serpent, making them little vipers, refer to as "this generation" many times in the scriptures.
There is another generation of righteous men and women chosen by God, where God dwells.
Psalms 14:5
“There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.”
Jeremiah, I do believe him, but, I'm convinced that you are following a doctrine that teaches bloodline salvation ~meaning, unless one can trace his genealogy back to Abraham, then that person cannot be born again, the gospel is not for any that are not true Jews from Abraham. Very closely connected with British Israelism in bloodline theology, though somewhat different.
Jesus, as we all know, was born under the law....
Galatians 4:4
“But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,”Being born under the law, he was subject to all of the teachings under the law, one being concerning that the Jews were separate from all other nations, and were forbidden to go unto them. Their dietaries laws were an example of their separation from them, per Acts 10, the only reason the dietaties laws were given. So, yes Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of Israel, but that was soon to change, a hidden mystery in their own scriptures, was about to be reveal to some of them after the death of the Lord Jesus, even though he had a few times begin to open up this mystery, which mystery is still hidden from your eyes. John 3:16: 4:21; 10:16; 12:32; etc.
I can provide so many scriptures showing you that the Gentiles are born as Gentiles by nature with no connection to Abraham, other than a spiritual connected by faith. By faith he is our father more than he is a Jews which is by nature only! We both belong to one and the same generation, which generation is of kind, not time! There's truly are only two generations of people living in this world, a generation of evil, wicked children of the old serpent, making them little vipers, refer to as "this generation" many times in the scriptures.
There is another generation of righteous men and women chosen by God, where God dwells.
Psalms 14:5
“There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.”
1 Peter 2:9
“But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:”
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
Live in the moment. Abraham's moment. He asked the LORD for an heir and God promised him one. Singular. Not twins or triplets. That single seed was Isaac. Then when Isaac was old, and he would not live to see the other promises from the LORD his inheritance was passed to Jacob. When Jacob got old, and he wouldn't witness God fulfilling the other promised to Abraham and to him the inheritance passed to Jacob. This went on generation to generation.
Paul was a rabbi and a Pharisee. He remained in good standing with his brethren the Jews. He knew the Abraham and Mosaic Covenants were made with Abraham and his descendants. He knew God made no promises to Gentiles. There weren't any Jews trying to circumcise non-Hebrew Gentiles. That would have been met with an uproar and Saul would have lost all credibility. There were no Jews trying to make non-Hebrew Gentiles to be circumcised. And the Jerusalem Council had to do with whether these mixed heritage Jews needed to be circumcised in order to be truly saved. The apostles and elders weren't concerning themselves with non-Hebrew Gentiles. They were mixed heritage Hebrews who grew up "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world" Eph 2:12.
NO JEW was ever trying to circumcise Gentiles or cause them to be obedient to the Law of Moses. No Jew ever did that. WHY? Because the covenant promises belong to the Jews, to Abraham and to Abraham's seed. There is NO COVENANT in the Old Testament between God and Gentiles. And you said it yourself - the New Testament must be interpreted by the Old Testament. Well, if there's no covenant in the Old Testament between God and Gentiles why are you including Gentiles into the Hebrew Covenants? There's nothing in the Old Testament of a covenant between God and Gentiles so why are you making one up? How can you teach Gentiles are in the New Covenant when the New Covenant is ONLY between God and the House of Israel and the House of Judah?
You are adding to the Word of God.
6 Add thou not unto his words,
Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Proverbs 30:6.
You can't add Gentiles into the Hebrew covenants when there is NO EVIDENCE in the Old Testament of a covenant in which God promised to deliver Gentiles or to save them. Christ did not die for Gentiles therefore Gentiles are outside of the covenants of God made with the children of Israel. So, if the New Testament is to be used to interpret the Old Testament, then show me in the Old Testament a covenant between God and non-Hebrew Gentiles.
You can't. You can't because there is none and by ADDING - NOT INTERPRETING - the New Testament to include Gentiles into the New Covenant, or the Mosaic Covenant, or the Abraham Covenant is adding to the New Testament things that are NOT in the Old Testament. You are contradicting your own words.
And each generation was heir to the generations before Abraham's and Mosaic covenants. Each generation was rightly possessing of the Abraham and Mosaic Covenants and each generation had hope and expectation that it would be their generation in which they would see God fulfill His promises to Abraham and to the children of Israel (their fathers.)
You push the "one seed" singularity which is Christ, then you split the seed to include Gentiles. How disingenuous can one person be?
You want to use the New Testament to interpret the Old Testament? Okay. You can do that now. Let's talk New Covenant. Here is the prophecy by Jeremiah of a New Covenant to come. Jeremiah is speaking to Jews/Hebrews/ He was sent to the southern kingdom tribes of Judah and Benjamin. He never prophesied to Gentiles. But he did prophesy that Gentiles were going to come and take Judah and Benjamin all away and exile them as told by God. Jeremiah lived before Jesus. Here is his prophecy:
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
That I will make a new covenant
With the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jeremiah 31:31.
The New Covenant to come will include the ten northern kingdom tribes of Israel and the two southern kingdom tribes of Judah. There is no mention of Gentiles in this covenant.
You want the New Testament to interpret the Old Testament? Let's do it together.
Here is Jesus Christ initiating the New Covenant/Testament. It is a covenant founded upon the sacrifice of Himself in His blood (for the life of the flesh is in the blood)
11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. Leviticus 17:11.
These words were spoken by Moses to the children of Israel. The sacrifice is "for you" (Israel) to make atonement for their sins. This is the very essence of the Law of Moses concerning their sin and atonement for their sin.
Continuing:
19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
Luke 22:19–20.
Almost verbatim Jesus is quoting Moses and Jesus is associating Himself with the sacrifice for atonement of sin. Both Moses and Jesus are designating for who the sacrifice for atonement is made and it is made for Israel.
Jesus is surrounded by His twelve disciples. Yes, we can get into discussion about the twelve disciples representing the twelve tribes of Israel, by in both sacrifices it is Israel whose sins are being atoned. Jeremiah prophesied a New Covenant, but not one like what God established in the desert with 'their fathers.' This is a New Covenant that is much more intimate and one in which a man's life is being sacrificed and not an animal, but the scope of atonement is secured in both instances of Moses and Jesus, the Prophet like unto Moses, who comes as the lamb of God which sacrifice takes away the sins of the world of Hebrews. It is their covenant, it is their sacrifice, and Jesus is their Savior. Jesus has fulfilled the jeremiah prophecy and the Law instructing the offering of a sacrifice for the sin of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel represented by the twelve Jewish disciples of Jesus Christ at this last Passover. The New Covenant prophesied by Jeremiah between God and the House of Israel and the House of Judah is directly tied to the body and blood of Jesus Christ, who is fulfilling the Law of Moses and the New Covenant in His body and blood. And in both cases who is being atoned? The House of Israel of ten tribes and the House of Judah of two tribes, in short, the children of Israel of twelve tribes.
Jeremiah did not include Gentiles and neither did Jesus. Now, how would you interpret these passages of the New Testament/Covenant initiated by Jesus at the last Passover in which He fulfills the Law of Moses and the people for whom atonement is made? We can interpret it very well I think, and that is because there is the shadow in the Old Testament where Moses offers the atoning sacrifice for the children of Israel.
Part of his ministry is to sprinkle the people with the blood of the sacrifice. But you can't interpret these passages in the Old Testament to include Gentiles when Moses is speaking to the children of Israel as he makes sacrifice for the children of Israel. We can use Luke 22:19-20 in support of our beliefs towards Leviticus 17:11 because the Old Testament mentions these things. But you cannot include Gentiles into this New Covenant when neither Jeremiah nor Moses includes Gentiles in the atonement for sin.
God is a Promise Keeper. He promised His Spirit to Israel through the prophet Joel. His Spirit arrived to Israel fifty days after the crucifixion and as promised Israel received His Spirit in a way spoken of in the Old Testament Scripture, and spoken of by Jesus, that He sends a Comforter like unto Him and the promise of Joel's prophecy is fulfilled with the Advent of the Holy Spirit of Promise. Pentecost has become the birthday of the Jewish Church of the Lord Jesus Christ. I agree. We interpret the Old Testament with the New Testament. Saul did exactly that. But the New Testament upon which he was able to interpret the Old Testament was in time yet to be written by his very own hand. And I can testify that Saul's New Testament writings does not interpret the Old Testament by including Gentiles in the New Covenant because there are no Gentiles in the Old Covenant at all.
Including Gentiles into the New Covenant is a Gentile theology that has no Old Covenant basis or truth. You see, I also interpret the Old Testament with the New Testament, and I used to include Gentiles into the New Covenant until I found out there was no Gentiles included in the Old Covenant. I was including Gentiles into the New Covenant until God opened my eyes to the fact that the Old Testament, specifically Leviticus 17:11, was never included in the Old Testament to begin with. The Mosaic Covenant did not include Gentiles in the offering for sin because God never included Gentiles into the Mosaic Covenant offering for sin. Gentiles are missing from the text of Scripture and missing from the text of Jeremiah's prophecy and missing from the text of Jesus' words as to whom the atoning sacrifices for sin is meant. It is meant to and for the children of Israel.
What you are doing is adding Gentiles into the Hebrew covenants where they are not even mentioned as being included in the covenants. You can't find Gentiles in the Mosaic Covenant, and you can't find Gentiles in the New Covenant prophecy by Jeremiah.
You add to the Bible things that are not there.
brightfame52
Well-known member
@Kermos
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Now if by chance Jesus is telling them its their work of responsibility to believe on Him whom God has sent, it applies to them who are already saved and its a work they do as a new creation in Christ and not as a natural man dead in sin in the flesh Eph 2:10
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Would not believing in Jesus be a good work ? Then its a work you do after you have been created in Christ Jesus.
Yes its the work of God the Holy Spirit to cause the Sheep of Christ to believe in Him. The Spirit causes that by His sanctifying influences when He sets them apart unto belief of the Truth 2 Thess 2:13
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Now if by chance Jesus is telling them its their work of responsibility to believe on Him whom God has sent, it applies to them who are already saved and its a work they do as a new creation in Christ and not as a natural man dead in sin in the flesh Eph 2:10
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Would not believing in Jesus be a good work ? Then its a work you do after you have been created in Christ Jesus.
@jeremiah1five
You Jeremiah are supporting God's enemies, thinking you are doing God a service! There have been some great men/women from that nation in the past (much greater than we'll ever be) when God worked through them, but those days are long gone never to return, "never" as pre-Christ's death and resurrection. We love our Jewish brethren that are converted to the religion of Jesus Christ, even though they are few and far in between.
The reason why Paul would not circumcise Gentile believers, because he knew circumcision did not mean a thing post Christ, either way, if you were, or, if you were not, so what? The Jews' rellgion was a dead rellgion post Christ's resurrection. There's a new Israel, with so much better promises, were the true worshippers offer up sacrifices of praise continually through Jesus Christ
The covenant of grace made with David's antitype, with Christ the head of the church, and the representative of it, and so with all his people in him, is an everlasting one: it was made with Christ from everlasting, as appears from the everlasting love of God, the source and spring of it; the earliness of the divine counsels on which it is formed, and blessings and promises of it, with which it is filled, which were before the world was; and from Christ being set up as the Mediator of it from everlasting: (2nd Timothy 1:9) and it will continue to everlasting; it is a covenant that cannot be broken, will never be removed, nor give way to or be succeeded by another: it is "ordered in all things": to promote and advance the glory of the Godhead, Father, Son, and Spirit; to secure the persons God's elect, both Jews and Gentiles, and to provide everything needful for them for time and eternity: and it is "sure"; it stands upon a sure basis, two immutable acts of God, his oath and promises; the unchangeable will and favour of God, and is in the hands of Christ, the same today, yesterday, and for ever; its mercies are the sure mercies of David, and its promises are yea and amen in Christ, and are sure to all the seed. It was made in Christ, Jeremiah, before it was made with any Jews~Noah, Abraham, David, etc.
The new covenant promised by Jeremiah in Jeremiah 31 and again mentioned in Hebrews 8, God revealing to us concerning more of the everlasting covenant of grace where he secured salvation by his almighty power and free grace for Jews (House of Judah) and Gentiles (The house of Israel)~forming what makes up the True Israel of God. explaining even more such scriptures as :
Now, this is a good stopping place to come back and finish, I said a little where it could have been many pages, but enough to help you to see where I'm coming from.
Better yet, try living by every word of God, not by what you want to believe in, even if you cannot prove it with the scriptures, which you can never prove your Jewish fable and your unscriptural and I might add unnatural love of the natural seed of Abraham, who for the most part, have proven to be some of the most fierce haters of the truth. (John 8)
1 Thessalonians 2:14-15
“For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost."You Jeremiah are supporting God's enemies, thinking you are doing God a service! There have been some great men/women from that nation in the past (much greater than we'll ever be) when God worked through them, but those days are long gone never to return, "never" as pre-Christ's death and resurrection. We love our Jewish brethren that are converted to the religion of Jesus Christ, even though they are few and far in between.
Oh, but I'm living in that moment by believing in such scriptures as:
John 8:56
“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.~He saw it with an eye of faith, he saw it in the promise, that in his seed all the nations of the earth should be blessed; (a truth you reject) he saw him in the birth of his son Isaac and rejoiced, and therefore called his name Isaac, that is, "laughter": he saw also Christ and his day, his sufferings, death, and resurrection from the dead, in a figure; in the binding of Isaac, in the sacrifice of the ram, and in the receiving of Isaac, as from the dead; and all this was matter of joy and gladness to him. So, Jeremiah, I too rejoice with the eye of faith.Not so sure Paul was a Rabbi, because of his age, yet for sure he was a Pharisees (Philippians 3), but rather or not he was a Rabbi, is truly irrelevant. Glad you finally calling him by his Gentile name~"Paul"...progress being made.
The reason why Paul would not circumcise Gentile believers, because he knew circumcision did not mean a thing post Christ, either way, if you were, or, if you were not, so what? The Jews' rellgion was a dead rellgion post Christ's resurrection. There's a new Israel, with so much better promises, were the true worshippers offer up sacrifices of praise continually through Jesus Christ
Galatians 6:15
“For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.”Jeremiah, Yes, God made a covenant with certain men in the OT which happened to be Jews, which covenant was nothing more than the everlasting covenant of grace made with Christ before the world begun. Beginning with Noah, to Abraham, to David to Christ each time a little more of the everlasting covenant was made known each time God gave it to the Patriarchs. David understood this perfectly:
2nd Samuel 23:5
“Although my house be not so with God; yet he hath made with me an everlasting covenant, ordered in all things, and sure: for this is all my salvation, and all my desire, although he make it not to grow.”The covenant of grace made with David's antitype, with Christ the head of the church, and the representative of it, and so with all his people in him, is an everlasting one: it was made with Christ from everlasting, as appears from the everlasting love of God, the source and spring of it; the earliness of the divine counsels on which it is formed, and blessings and promises of it, with which it is filled, which were before the world was; and from Christ being set up as the Mediator of it from everlasting: (2nd Timothy 1:9) and it will continue to everlasting; it is a covenant that cannot be broken, will never be removed, nor give way to or be succeeded by another: it is "ordered in all things": to promote and advance the glory of the Godhead, Father, Son, and Spirit; to secure the persons God's elect, both Jews and Gentiles, and to provide everything needful for them for time and eternity: and it is "sure"; it stands upon a sure basis, two immutable acts of God, his oath and promises; the unchangeable will and favour of God, and is in the hands of Christ, the same today, yesterday, and for ever; its mercies are the sure mercies of David, and its promises are yea and amen in Christ, and are sure to all the seed. It was made in Christ, Jeremiah, before it was made with any Jews~Noah, Abraham, David, etc.
Briefly, Jeremiah, here is where you and other missed a very important truth. The mystery of Jews and Gentiles being made ONE FOLD was hidden in the OT scriptures under such phrases as "The house of Israel and the House of Judah" ~The house of Israel being a type of the Gentiles, and Judah being the Jews where the temple was and where men went to worship in the OT. After the Israel split into two kingdoms, the northern and southern~The Northern kingdom called Israel never had any good king, nor had any form of true worship, much like the Gentiles nations, which they were a perfect type of. Judah did have some good kings who fear God and serve him ~but, toward the latter end both became corrupt, and you know the story. Much like our day now, a subject for another day.
The new covenant promised by Jeremiah in Jeremiah 31 and again mentioned in Hebrews 8, God revealing to us concerning more of the everlasting covenant of grace where he secured salvation by his almighty power and free grace for Jews (House of Judah) and Gentiles (The house of Israel)~forming what makes up the True Israel of God. explaining even more such scriptures as :
Romans 2:28
“For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.Now, this is a good stopping place to come back and finish, I said a little where it could have been many pages, but enough to help you to see where I'm coming from.
@jeremiah1five
The Bible is totally sufficient for all righteousness, wisdom, and truth (2nd Timothy 3;16,17; 2nd Peter 1:19-21). There is no need for further revelation, human rationalization, or religious tradition, or Jewish fables, which you believe in! (Titus 1:14). Adding your thoughts to His inspired words is only arrogance and folly (Deut. 4:2; 12:32; Matthew 28:20). Since He has magnified His word above all His name, He will not take any profane additions lightly (Psalm 138:2). He will judge men severely for adding their lying thoughts to His pure words (Proverbs 30:5; Revelation 22:18; etc.).
Please take note because this is very important: Covenants made with the OT Patriarchs, mainly Abraham, (Genesis 12:1-3; etc) and David, (2nd Samuel 7) of the OT, was nothing more than a revealing of the everlasting covenant already made WITH CHRIST by God before he foundation of this earth. ~which covenant included the Gentiles who were such by nature. We know this to be so, by so many OT scriptures that even Paul, a Jew by nature quoted:
Why are you trying to keep Gentiles, who are such by nature, from trusting in Jesus Christ, he is our Lord and Saviour more so than any natural Jews by nature, who does not believe.
Jesus in the NT did not include all of the world in his atonement for sin~ does this surprise you that I believe this? yet, he he was the propitiation for the sins of the world, not only limited to the Jews~but it was limited to some Jews and some Gentiles~the world meaning all without distinction, as there was a very distinction made in the OT without question!
Coming back...once more.
I fully agree with these words~do you? It is you that believes in Jewish fables, not me, I believe...........
The Bible is totally sufficient for all righteousness, wisdom, and truth (2nd Timothy 3;16,17; 2nd Peter 1:19-21). There is no need for further revelation, human rationalization, or religious tradition, or Jewish fables, which you believe in! (Titus 1:14). Adding your thoughts to His inspired words is only arrogance and folly (Deut. 4:2; 12:32; Matthew 28:20). Since He has magnified His word above all His name, He will not take any profane additions lightly (Psalm 138:2). He will judge men severely for adding their lying thoughts to His pure words (Proverbs 30:5; Revelation 22:18; etc.).
I show you how we must understand Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 concerning the house of Israel and the house of Judah, for so did the apostles and the writer of Hebrews, Paul or, someone else, it truly makes no difference, what is importance is the truth that is taught therein. The Holy Ghost is the Author.
Please take note because this is very important: Covenants made with the OT Patriarchs, mainly Abraham, (Genesis 12:1-3; etc) and David, (2nd Samuel 7) of the OT, was nothing more than a revealing of the everlasting covenant already made WITH CHRIST by God before he foundation of this earth. ~which covenant included the Gentiles who were such by nature. We know this to be so, by so many OT scriptures that even Paul, a Jew by nature quoted:
Romans 15:16
“That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.”Romans 10:19-21
“But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.”Romans 15:8-12
“Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.”Why are you trying to keep Gentiles, who are such by nature, from trusting in Jesus Christ, he is our Lord and Saviour more so than any natural Jews by nature, who does not believe.
You truly prove nothing more than what I believe and it is this: that the offering of Jesus Christ was indeed for his people only not for all without exception. The Lord's supper is a reminder to his people of his death for them until he comes again. But, his people under the NT are Jews and Gentiles who are the True Israel of God. They are the "two witnesses" of Revelation eleven during the time from Christ's death til his coming again. Another subject for another day.
I'll come back and finish, and then give you one more opportunity to respond, and then most likely I'm finish discussing this with you if no progress is made.
Jesus in the NT did not include all of the world in his atonement for sin~ does this surprise you that I believe this? yet, he he was the propitiation for the sins of the world, not only limited to the Jews~but it was limited to some Jews and some Gentiles~the world meaning all without distinction, as there was a very distinction made in the OT without question!
Coming back...once more.
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