An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
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Post #7,415 is the integral predecessor to this current post regarding “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).
See, TomL, how you exalted/emboldened the man portion of the Lord's saying without your giving the same honor to the Source of that which you exalted/emboldened in:
27 “Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”
Now, it's time to visit John 6:27 with even more context.
"Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal" (John 6:27), but this would be incomplete without the intervening passage culminating with "Then they said to Him, 'Lord, always give us this bread.' Jesus said to them, 'I am the Bread of Life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst'" (John 6:34-35).
Do not be condused about the "who comes to Me" in John 6:35 because the Lord says "he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21), so we Christians work for God because God wrings our work/deeds out of us!
In John 6:27 and John 6:34-35, Jesus says He is our Christian's food (John 6:27), our Christian Bread of Life (John 6:35).
The Christ of us Christians says "I am the Living Bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh" (John 6:51).
Praise the Lord for He explains our Christian work (John 6:27) is to eat the Bread of Life (John 6:35, John 6:51). Christ says "work" "for the food" (John 6:27) which means work for Christ (see bearing fruit in John 3:21 quoted above and John 15:5 and John 15:16), so Christ says not that believing in Christ is the work of man, so this means your "Your interpretation of verse 29 cannot contradict what Jesus already told them" is meaningless at conception and your free-will interpretation false according to the Holy Spirit of God for my brother Peter declares:
20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God."
(2 Peter 1:20-21)
Every Christian Believing In The Son Whom The Father Has Sent Is The Work Of God
Let's examine the context of the people's word, and, more importantly, the Word of God speaks the Truth (John 14:6) without human interpretation.
Let’s review the exchange:
they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” So they said to Him, “What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform? Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread out of heaven to eat.’” Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.”
(John 6:28-33)
The people asked about their own work respecting salvation when they inquired “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God” (John 6:28), yet Christ rightly removed man’s work from anyplace respecting salvation when He responded “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).
The people failed to understand, just like free-willian philosophers, that Lord Jesus removed the work of man from saving belief/faith with the Lord’s marvelous sayings of “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” (John 6:29).
The people followed up by asking/injecting the work of man, again, with “Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness” (John 6:31).
The Lord shifts the focus from man’s purported control to God’s Sovereign control, this second time in the same exchange, with “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.”
(John 6:32-33).
Behold, the Word of God establishes that faith/belief is given by God without any contribution by man (John 6:29) and, in like manner, life is given by the Bread of God without any contribution by man (John 6:32-33).
PRAISE JESUS FOR HIS LOVINGKINDNESS!!!
In Truth (John 14:6), the Christ of us Christians intensifies that God works man regarding saving faith/belief, not man working, but truly the Bread of Life (John 6:35) as exclusive Savior!
Free-willian Philosophers convey things like “They obviously understood jesus to be saying what God requires of you is that you believe” (the word of TomL, see post #1,818) about the people recorded in John 6:28-33 in order for the free-willian heart’s treasure (Matthew 15:16-19) to justify adulterating the Word of God resulting in “This is not the work of God but this is the work of man, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (TomL's contextual conclusion for his 6:29).
The Lord uses the continuing exchange to illumine the people's, and your, ignorance. The Word of God is precise and pure “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” (John 6:29).
Lord Jesus Christ conveys "by grace you are saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) and "faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8).
brightfame52
Well-known member
Since when did you understand the OT prophets, Jesus and the Apostles ?
civic
Well-known member
Once upon a time in a land far far away called Carmville
GodsGrace
Well-known member
Hi Synergy....
I'm not sure I could define myself as a Trekkie since I'm not sure what it would entail.
Here's where I am on Star Trek, you be the judge!
I watched every single episode.
Had to miss some due to a vacation and I really missed it.
I still think it was ahead of it's time in idea/concept and story-telling.
Of course, special effects are better today.
(I feel this same way about 2001 A Space odyssey but the special effects were better in that).
I don't like all the other new Star Trek's as they were not real sci-fi (as I explained in my other post).
Also, you can't beat the crew of the original Enterprise.
I'm not going to remember the title of Episodes since I'm also forgetting names of songs and bands.
(must be old age! or, hopefully, just too much to remember).
I looked up Doomsday Machine on YouTube and immediately remembered it.
The fantastic trick of Capt. Kirk to make the glingons (was it?) believe everything would blowup
incl them. Yeah. If I watch the first 30 seconds I could probably remember all of them.
So, what do you think? Am I a trekkie or I just don't cut it?!
(never been to a convention and will not know every little detail of the crew or ship).
GodsGrace
Well-known member
Civic,Once upon a time in a land far far away called Carmville
Isn't it interesting how you understand those "calvinist" verses differently now?
I just find this to be incredible....how we could read the same exact verse and come up with such differing theology.
GodsGrace
Well-known member
It was kind of tongue in cheek.
I know what you really believe RB.
Of course God has an elect.
It's in scripture.
In the OT the elect were the Hebrews/Israelites/Jews.
God chose to elect Israel in order to reveal Himself as the ONE TRUE GOD...in an area where many gods were worshipped.
He desired to make Himself be known.
Thus...God told Abraham to leave Ur/Haran.
In the NT the elect are all those that belong to the Body of Christ.
Question is: HOW did they become the elect?
By their own choice of course.
We are told to BELIEVE.
Thanks for highlighting the words you think I don't understand RB....
but the highlighting does not change what they mean.
And YES, everyone on this thread that is not reformed/calvinist believes the inspired word of God.
Let's look at what you posted again to make sure:
"So, do you believe man is in bondage to sin before God saves him? "
YES,,,,WE ALL BELIEVE MAN IS IN BONDAGE TO SIN BEFORE GOD SAVES HIM.
(and I'd venture to say that all the members you tagged also believe this....it's not a Calvinist belief RB....You don't OWN the NT).
"Do you believe his flesh ~ which is all an unregenerate person has before one is born of God's Spirit, is at enmity against God? "
YES, BEFORE ONE IS BORN AGAIN, HE IS AT ENMITY WITH GOD.
(of course unregenerate is a calvinist word, but the scripture mans the same even though you insist on using calvinist wording)
" He (one that is in the flesh) is not subject to the God, "neither indeed can be," per Romans 8:4-9"
YES,,,THE UNSAVED PERSON IS NOT SUBJECT TO GOD.
ONLY SAVED PERSONS ARE SUBJECT TO GO.
. So, are you telling me that you believe this as well? And others here
Yes, RB, I'm telling you that I believe what you posted, and so do those you tagged.
A little bit of truth mixed in with the lies is what confuses calvinists.
So?
And exactly WHERE does the NT state what you've written above?
I can't find it.
And I'm not discussing Romans 9 because it's a waste of time with calvinists.
They get into it,,,waste my time,,,and then stop posting.
Isau and Jacob have NOTHING TO DO with who gets saved or not.
They represent TWO NATIONS....read the chapters 9, 10 and 11 well.
Paul states that he's speaking of two nations.
GodsGrace
Well-known member
A short post, with scripture, and YOUR understanding of it...
and then the reply of another member, is how debate is achieved.
Long tirades accomplish nothing and makes it difficult to reply to you.
PRAISE THE LORD JESUS FOR ALLOWING ALL MEN THE OPPORTUNITY TO BE SAVED AND SPEND ETERNITY WITH HIM.
PRAISE GOD FOR THE GOSPEL THAT INVITES ALL MEN TO SALVATION.
@GodsGrace @Jim @MTMattie @TomL @ProDeo @synergy @civic
But, do they believe what you said you confessed to believe is something each one of them must answer for themselves and I think you will be quiet surprise at each one's answer. So I ask each one of them do you believe what is posted in the green below?
Btw, Fran, flesh (which is all that an unregenerate person possess, and which is what makes him unregenerate, (if that is all that he is) is not a Calvinistic word, the Lord Jesus and Paul used it often in reference to man's sinful nature, by birth.
Greetings Fran, I'm sure each one of these believe that the word of God is indeed His inspired spoken word, that's not being by question by me
But, do they believe what you said you confessed to believe is something each one of them must answer for themselves and I think you will be quiet surprise at each one's answer. So I ask each one of them do you believe what is posted in the green below?
I'll wait to hear from each one of them, or at least most of them, before responding.
Btw, Fran, flesh (which is all that an unregenerate person possess, and which is what makes him unregenerate, (if that is all that he is) is not a Calvinistic word, the Lord Jesus and Paul used it often in reference to man's sinful nature, by birth.
John 3:6
“That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”Romans 7:18
“For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.”
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You cannot escape the fact Jesus is telling them there is something they must do
And in context notes what God requires of them
John 6:27–29 (NASB95) — 27 “Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.” 28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”
Jesus already told them to work for the food which endures for eternal life
Your interpretation of verse 29 cannot contradict what Jesus already told them
You are ignoring context
'
And even Calvin from whom your doctrine is named, disagrees with your claim
John Calvin: “People who infer from this passage that faith is God’s gift are mistaken, for Christ does not show here what God produces in us, but what God wants and requires from us.” (The Crossway Classic Commentaries: John; Crossway Books; Wheaton, IL; 1994, p.393)
It depends upon what you think it means to be in bondage to sin. It does not mean the only thing one can do is sin. It does not mean,, as some Calvinists/Refirned Theology types think, that everything the unregenerate does is sin.
No, flesh is not all that an unregenerate person possesses. The unregenerate person has a spirit. All human beings are in possession of a spirit formed in them by God. The spirit of the unregenerate is damaged due to the sin he has committed. It is the spirit that is dead in trespasses and sin. The rebirth, being born again, being regenerated is the act of God bringing the spirit to life again. Sinful nature, which by the way is not a phrase ever used in scripture, is not a sin. Paul does speak of sinful flesh in Romans 8:3, but that is not the same as sinful nature. One must be very careful how he uses the term "flesh". The flesh does not change when one is regenerated. The change is in the spirit.
That does not say that the unregenerate is without a spirit. It just says that the spirit comes from Spirit, that is, the spirit of man comes from God.
Again, the discussion of that verse or even the entire passage depends upon how you interpret " no good thing". The Calvinist tends to posit that absolutely nothing the unregenerate does is acceptable to God and that even the unregenerate mother nursing her baby is the act of "sinful flesh" is actually sinful and as such is abhorrent to God. That is a terrible view of God. It is a false concept of "sinful flesh".
People do apostisize for sure. He will come around.
GodsGrace
Well-known member
Thanks for calling me a liar J...that's nice.
Makes for a good conversation.
I will make you a father of many nations.
I'm just posting scripture.
Paul also stated that men from all nations would be saved.
Galatians 3:8
8The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.”
The OT is full of passages regarding other nations:
PSALM 67:7, 72:11, 72:17, 82:8, 22:27
ISAIAH 49:6
And I should add... from the NT:
ACTS 4:12
JOHN 3:16
ROMANS 1:16
Are these lies too?
Too much writing without saying anything.
So my last question to you:
Did Paul write to the following?
Were they Jewish?:
PHILLIPI
CORINTH
EPHESIS
ROME
Paul was even called the Apostle to the Gentiles.
This is my last post to you J.
What you believe is preposterous.
GodsGrace
Well-known member
Presby
I truly doubt @civic will be "coming around" back to calvinism.
Know why?
Because the reformed misapply every single verse they THINK speaks to predestination.
Because the reformed change the nature of God.
Once is person comes to see the TRUTH...and really understands all those verses,
And once they understand how God desires ALL MEN to be saved....
they will NEVER go back to calvinism.
Those that escape are happy to have escaped.
Would YOU go back to prison?
To a guard that has hatred in his heart
and does not do his best to protect the prisoners but
revels in his own good pleasure to torture them?
I don't think so.
I came to see the truth also. It's called Reformed theology. . Anyone can say that. The proof is in the pudding.
If God desires all men to be saved, our omnipotent God, why does He not simply save them all despite themselves?
GodsGrace
Well-known member
That's a question YOU should ask yourself P.
If Paul and John state that God desires for all men to be saved...why aren't they?
Is he too weak of a god?
No.
Apparently there must be another reason.
It's called Free Will.
Really? And the Bible states that where precisely?
Dizerner
Well-known member
This should NEVER be the heart of ANY objection or determination for what to believe.
It's literally objecting at God's ways and denying God his place of authority.
It is interesting I don't know of a single person who left and returned to Calvinism.
Because God is holy. He cannot ignore sin. In His mercy He has presented a plan whereby a sinner can be forgiven, redeemed and saved. Contrary to the false doctrines of that Reformed Theology which you have bought into, that plan is not independent upon the actions of the one to be saved.
So you know every single person who has left Calvinism?
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