An Article on free will

[Kermos]

You can continue to believe the word WORLD does not mean WORLD Kermos.

I'm going to post Strong's...I think you like strong's:

Strong's Lexicon kosmos: World, universe, order, adornment​ Original Word: κόσμος Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine Transliteration: kosmos Pronunciation: KOS-mos Phonetic Spelling: (kos'-mos) Definition: World, universe, order, adornment Meaning: the world, universe; worldly affairs; the inhabitants of the world; adornment. Word Origin: Derived from a primary verb κομέω (koméō), meaning "to take care of" or "to order." Corresponding Greek / Hebrew Entries: - H8398 תֵּבֵל (tebel) – often translated as "world" or "earth." - H776 אֶרֶץ ('erets) – commonly translated as "earth" or "land." Usage: The Greek word "kosmos" primarily refers to an ordered system or arrangement. In the New Testament, it is used to denote the universe as an ordered creation, the earth, the inhabitants of the earth, and the worldly affairs or systems opposed to God. It can also refer to adornment or decoration, as seen in 1 Peter 3:3. Cultural and Historical Background: In ancient Greek culture, "kosmos" was used to describe the universe's order and harmony, reflecting the Greek appreciation for balance and beauty. Philosophers like Pythagoras and Plato used the term to discuss the cosmos's structure and the universe's inherent order. In the New Testament context, "kosmos" often contrasts the divine order with the fallen state of humanity and the world system that stands in opposition to God's kingdom.​

​

It means world, earth, or its inhabitants.
The WORLD mean everything in or on the earth...
everything living on the earth.

The world could also mean a SYSTEM...the order of that system.
But it wouldn't make since for John 3:16
God cannot LOVE A SYSTEM.


No Christian denies that God is at work in us.
Jesus said it was good that He go away in order to send the Holy Spirit.
And yes...God wills for us to do good works to please Him.
EVERY Christian believes this.

You say my verse do not denote free will...
but you don't explain why.
Because YOU state something Kermos....
does not make it so.

Just take Philemon for instance...
Philemon 1:12-14
12 I have sent him back to you in person, that is, sending my very heart,
13 whom I wished to keep with me, so that on your behalf he might minister to me in my imprisonment for the gospel;
14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.


Please exegete Philemon 1:14 and explain how it is NOT speaking to the free will of Philemon.


Well, actually K...I was trying to make you understand that free will ALWAYS existed in the church...
you seem to believe that calvinism was always the norm AND IT HAS NEVER BEEN THE NORM.
I mentioned to you have the absence of free will was taught FOR THE FIRST TIME by a manichaen gnostic
that joined the Catholic Church in the 5th century. And...to boot, the CC, to this day believes that man has free will.

So, yes, I'd say that the theologians of the early church THAT PRESERVED GOD'S WORD FOR YOU...
and that ASSEMBLED THE NEW TESTAMENT FOR YOU,,,,which you are using today....
are a very good source to know what the early church believed about free will.

And you keep mentioning philosophy...
I don't know any philosophy...
I DO know theology and I'm speaking to theology.

If you want to discuss PHILOSOPPHICAL FREE WILL
you'll have to go find someone to discuss it with because it's 2 totally different topics.

What do the above have to do with free will??

And WHY would God have to give us ANY commandments
IF HE is the one that is going to choose the saved and the lost
and IF HE is the one that decrees everything from the beginning?

Why would God command us to love one another?
Does this mean we have free will !!
Why give a command for something YOU say we cannot do ??

I agree that it's the Holy Spirit in us that gives us our strength to follow God.

You love to copy and paste don't you?

So does this mean you don't even read my posts to you?
Does this mean that you're not doing any NEW thinking on this subject?

Paul said we are to grow and stop drinking milk and start eating meat.
Try it.

Lord God Almighty, you are glorified by we, the children of God, in Christ, keeping Your commandments. Lord Jesus, you are our nourishing sustenance, you fulfill your promise by lovingly filling us, and we are eternally grateful. Hallelujah and amen!

@GodsGrace, your Free-willian Philosophy includes everybody everywhere (believer and unbeliever considering entire lifetimes) in the scope of the word "world" in John 3:16, so your Free-willian Philosophy sums up as:

• God loves Daphne of the world before and after Daphne hears of Christ. Daphne chose to love/believe in Christ, so God rewards Daphne with eternal life.
• God loves Fred of the world before and after Fred hears of Christ. Fred chose not to love/believe in Christ, so God punishes Fred with eternal death.
• Conclusion: the Love of God is so very weak that people like Fred draw the Love of God to burn in hell for eternity according to your Free-willian Philosophy.

You reply by posting Strong's, a helpful tool, without consideration of Christ's contextual use of the word "world" as used by Lord Jesus in "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, so that every believing will in Him have eternal life, for God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that every believing in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:14-16).

Jesus sets the relation between differing populations of persons by way of Him including "the serpent in the wilderness" (John 3:14, Numbers 21:9), so the "population of bitten look to live" directly corresponds with the population of the "world" as per Jesus' usage (John 3:16), so the Word of God conclusively proves that the context establishes the word "world" as used by Jesus in John 3:16 includes ONLY the population of persons that currently believe in Jesus or will in the future believe in Jesus.

Your Free-willian Philosophy is dead wrong about the word "world" being everyone everywhere John 3:16 because of context and people like Bill.

You ignored me proclaiming the apostle Paul's writing "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13) regarding Psalm 110:3, Deuteronomy 23:23, Judges 5:1-2, 1 Corinthians 9:16-17, and 1 Peter 5:2 which eliminates any potential for your free-will concept from occuring in any of the passages you preached as your Free-willian Philosophy foundation. Behold, Paul says there is no free-will.

Some of the above and more was brand new composition to you in response to you in the post to which you replied, so I reply with your questions:

So does this mean you don't even read my posts to you?
Does this mean that you're not doing any NEW thinking on this subject?
​

You want to deviate from the word "world" in John 3:16 where you approached me as recorded in post #6,500 of this thread, but I am entertaining a plan to discontinue discussing other passages that you bring up with you until the context of the word "world" in John 3:16 is settled, for example, your Free-willian Philosophy falls apart when people like Fred are considered.

But, before ceasing the discussion of other passages, Psalm 110:3, Deuteronomy 23:23, and Judges 5:1-2 mistranslate the Hebrew word root נדב (generous) to the English word "voluntarily" as demonstrated in post #135 in this thread.

And, as previously discussed in post #3,868 in this thread, Paul uses free-will as illusory instead of concrete in Philemon 1:14 while compulsion is the concrete; furthermore, just like self-will earns reward (payment) unto self glorification boasting per 1 Corinthians 9:16-17 while Christ-image-will is entrusted with stewardship unto the glory of God.

You asked "What do the above have to do with free will??". The answer exists before you asked with “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29), and this Word of God applies to every occurrence of saving faith in the Bible. My Father causes me to believe in His Son whom my Father has sent. You contradict the Word of God with your heart's treasure (Matthew 15:16-19, Matthew 6:21) by stealing God's glory with your "apart from Jesus, I free-will chose to believe in Jesus". Christians do not live in contradiction to Christ.

Your flurry of closing questions can have an aggregated response of "you cannot love/believe Christ unless God imparts God's love into you" as per the following.

We children of God are the beneficiaries of God working God's love in us Christians, for the Christ of us Christians says “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another” (John 13:34).

And, John is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God” (1 John 4:7, see the phrase “love is from God” meaning God is the source of true love).

And, John expands with his writing of “God is Love, and the one who abides in Love abides in God, and God abides in him” (1 John 4:16, see the phrase “one who abides in Love” is equivocated with “one who abides” “in God” which extends from God’s exclusivity with “God is Love”).

So, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 13:34 states that the love, true love (John 3:33), the very righteous love, the Godly love within us children of God, this love is exclusively by/of/through God.

You do not follow and truly love Christ unless God causes the love.

We Christians follow and truly love Christ our Leader, Lord, and, God.

You accuse me of "copy and paste" as if it's evil, yet you hypocritically "copy and paste" Strong's in your post's opening. Hear the Word of the LORD "woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in." (Matthew 23:13).

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE GOD WHO LOVES ACCORDING TO HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS!!!

 

[MTMattie]

Lord God Almighty, you are glorified by we, the children of God, in Christ, keeping Your commandments. Lord Jesus, you are our nourishing sustenance, you fulfill your promise by lovingly filling us, and we are eternally grateful. Hallelujah and amen!

@GodsGrace, your Free-willian Philosophy includes everybody everywhere (believer and unbeliever considering entire lifetimes) in the scope of the word "world" in John 3:16, so your Free-willian Philosophy sums up as:

• God loves Daphne of the world before and after Daphne hears of Christ. Daphne chose to love/believe in Christ, so God rewards Daphne with eternal life.
• God loves Fred of the world before and after Fred hears of Christ. Fred chose not to love/believe in Christ, so God punishes Fred with eternal death.
• Conclusion: the Love of God is so very weak that people like Fred draw the Love of God to burn in hell for eternity according to your Free-willian Philosophy.

You reply by posting Strong's, a helpful tool, without consideration of Christ's contextual use of the word "world" as used by Lord Jesus in "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, so that every believing will in Him have eternal life, for God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that every believing in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:14-16).

Jesus sets the relation between differing populations of persons by way of Him including "the serpent in the wilderness" (John 3:14, Numbers 21:9), so the "population of bitten look to live" directly corresponds with the population of the "world" as per Jesus' usage (John 3:16), so the Word of God conclusively proves that the context establishes the word "world" as used by Jesus in John 3:16 includes ONLY the population of persons that currently believe in Jesus or will in the future believe in Jesus.

Your Free-willian Philosophy is dead wrong about the word "world" being everyone everywhere John 3:16 because of context and people like Bill.

You ignored me proclaiming the apostle Paul's writing "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13) regarding Psalm 110:3, Deuteronomy 23:23, Judges 5:1-2, 1 Corinthians 9:16-17, and 1 Peter 5:2 which eliminates any potential for your free-will concept from occuring in any of the passages you preached as your Free-willian Philosophy foundation. Behold, Paul says there is no free-will.

Some of the above and more was brand new composition to you in response to you in the post to which you replied, so I reply with your questions:

​

So does this mean you don't even read my posts to you?​

Does this mean that you're not doing any NEW thinking on this subject?​

​

You want to deviate from the word "world" in John 3:16 where you approached me as recorded in post #6,500 of this thread, but I am entertaining a plan to discontinue discussing other passages that you bring up with you until the context of the word "world" in John 3:16 is settled, for example, your Free-willian Philosophy falls apart when people like Fred are considered.

But, before ceasing the discussion of other passages, Psalm 110:3, Deuteronomy 23:23, and Judges 5:1-2 mistranslate the Hebrew word root נדב (generous) to the English word "voluntarily" as demonstrated in post #135 in this thread.

And, as previously discussed in post #3,868 in this thread, Paul uses free-will as illusory instead of concrete in Philemon 1:14 while compulsion is the concrete; furthermore, just like self-will earns reward (payment) unto self glorification boasting per 1 Corinthians 9:16-17 while Christ-image-will is entrusted with stewardship unto the glory of God.

You asked "What do the above have to do with free will??". The answer exists before you asked with “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29), and this Word of God applies to every occurrence of saving faith in the Bible. My Father causes me to believe in His Son whom my Father has sent. You contradict the Word of God with your heart's treasure (Matthew 15:16-19, Matthew 6:21) by stealing God's glory with your "apart from Jesus, I free-will chose to believe in Jesus". Christians do not live in contradiction to Christ.

Your flurry of closing questions can have an aggregated response of "you cannot love/believe Christ unless God imparts God's love into you" as per the following.

We children of God are the beneficiaries of God working God's love in us Christians, for the Christ of us Christians says “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another” (John 13:34).

And, John is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God” (1 John 4:7, see the phrase “love is from God” meaning God is the source of true love).

And, John expands with his writing of “God is Love, and the one who abides in Love abides in God, and God abides in him” (1 John 4:16, see the phrase “one who abides in Love” is equivocated with “one who abides” “in God” which extends from God’s exclusivity with “God is Love”).

So, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 13:34 states that the love, true love (John 3:33), the very righteous love, the Godly love within us children of God, this love is exclusively by/of/through God.

You do not follow and truly love Christ unless God causes the love.

We Christians follow and truly love Christ our Leader, Lord, and, God.

You accuse me of "copy and paste" as if it's evil, yet you hypocritically "copy and paste" Strong's in your post's opening. Hear the Word of the LORD "woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in." (Matthew 23:13).

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE GOD WHO LOVES ACCORDING TO HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS!!!

Me thinks this one is one of those regional flood believers who claim Noah's flood was localized to the parts of the world where the people lived as they would not have knowledge to know anything outside of that area.

He will not learn and is too busy conjuring up ideas to twist the written scriptures from what they actually say

 

[GodsGrace]

Lord God Almighty, you are glorified by we, the children of God, in Christ, keeping Your commandments. Lord Jesus, you are our nourishing sustenance, you fulfill your promise by lovingly filling us, and we are eternally grateful. Hallelujah and amen!

@GodsGrace, your Free-willian Philosophy includes everybody everywhere (believer and unbeliever considering entire lifetimes) in the scope of the word "world" in John 3:16, so your Free-willian Philosophy sums up as:

• God loves Daphne of the world before and after Daphne hears of Christ. Daphne chose to love/believe in Christ, so God rewards Daphne with eternal life.
• God loves Fred of the world before and after Fred hears of Christ. Fred chose not to love/believe in Christ, so God punishes Fred with eternal death.
• Conclusion: the Love of God is so very weak that people like Fred draw the Love of God to burn in hell for eternity according to your Free-willian Philosophy.

First Kermos....
I don't know about philosophy.
Perhaps you don't want to speak to me...I do theology.

So,,,the answer to all three bullet points is YES.
God loves all His creatures and would want that all of them be saved.
Now,,,YOU said that God is weak.
This is a common remark among the reformed/calvinist believers.

You believe this because you do not believe in free will.
You see Kermos....it's up to YOU and to ME to know if we want to be saved.

If you could find some scripture that states that God forcefully saves us AGAINST OUR FREE WILL...
then please find it and post it because such a verse DOES NOT EXIST because it is NOT TRUE.

Other than that...
your long posts mean nothing.

Please use scripture.
I'm interested in what GOD teaches...
NOT what the reformed teach.

FOR GOD SO LOVE THE WORLD.....
JESUS DIED FOR EVERYONE
1 John 2:2

You could not agree.
BUT
It's what the word of God states.

You reply by posting Strong's, a helpful tool, without consideration of Christ's contextual use of the word "world" as used by Lord Jesus in "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, so that every believing will in Him have eternal life, for God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that every believing in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:14-16).

Actually Kermos...I DON'T USE STRONG'S.
I've stated to YOU that I trust the translators of the bible.
It's YOU that likes Strong's so I used what YOU like to depend on because
apparently, the bible is not sufficient for you.

Jesus sets the relation between differing populations of persons by way of Him including "the serpent in the wilderness" (John 3:14, Numbers 21:9), so the "population of bitten look to live" directly corresponds with the population of the "world" as per Jesus' usage (John 3:16), so the Word of God conclusively proves that the context establishes the word "world" as used by Jesus in John 3:16 includes ONLY the population of persons that currently believe in Jesus or will in the future believe in Jesus.

Your Free-willian Philosophy is dead wrong about the word "world" being everyone everywhere John 3:16 because of context and people like Bill.

You ignored me proclaiming the apostle Paul's writing "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13) regarding Psalm 110:3, Deuteronomy 23:23, Judges 5:1-2, 1 Corinthians 9:16-17, and 1 Peter 5:2 which eliminates any potential for your free-will concept from occuring in any of the passages you preached as your Free-willian Philosophy foundation. Behold, Paul says there is no free-will.

Some of the above and more was brand new composition to you in response to you in the post to which you replied, so I reply with your questions:

​

So does this mean you don't even read my posts to you?​

Does this mean that you're not doing any NEW thinking on this subject?​

​

You want to deviate from the word "world" in John 3:16 where you approached me as recorded in post #6,500 of this thread, but I am entertaining a plan to discontinue discussing other passages that you bring up with you until the context of the word "world" in John 3:16 is settled, for example, your Free-willian Philosophy falls apart when people like Fred are considered.

But, before ceasing the discussion of other passages, Psalm 110:3, Deuteronomy 23:23, and Judges 5:1-2 mistranslate the Hebrew word root נדב (generous) to the English word "voluntarily" as demonstrated in post #135 in this thread.

And, as previously discussed in post #3,868 in this thread, Paul uses free-will as illusory instead of concrete in Philemon 1:14 while compulsion is the concrete; furthermore, just like self-will earns reward (payment) unto self glorification boasting per 1 Corinthians 9:16-17 while Christ-image-will is entrusted with stewardship unto the glory of God.

You asked "What do the above have to do with free will??". The answer exists before you asked with “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29), and this Word of God applies to every occurrence of saving faith in the Bible. My Father causes me to believe in His Son whom my Father has sent. You contradict the Word of God with your heart's treasure (Matthew 15:16-19, Matthew 6:21) by stealing God's glory with your "apart from Jesus, I free-will chose to believe in Jesus". Christians do not live in contradiction to Christ.

Your flurry of closing questions can have an aggregated response of "you cannot love/believe Christ unless God imparts God's love into you" as per the following.

We children of God are the beneficiaries of God working God's love in us Christians, for the Christ of us Christians says “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another” (John 13:34).

And, John is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God” (1 John 4:7, see the phrase “love is from God” meaning God is the source of true love).

And, John expands with his writing of “God is Love, and the one who abides in Love abides in God, and God abides in him” (1 John 4:16, see the phrase “one who abides in Love” is equivocated with “one who abides” “in God” which extends from God’s exclusivity with “God is Love”).

So, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 13:34 states that the love, true love (John 3:33), the very righteous love, the Godly love within us children of God, this love is exclusively by/of/through God.

You do not follow and truly love Christ unless God causes the love.

We Christians follow and truly love Christ our Leader, Lord, and, God.

You accuse me of "copy and paste" as if it's evil, yet you hypocritically "copy and paste" Strong's in your post's opening. Hear the Word of the LORD "woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in." (Matthew 23:13).

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE GOD WHO LOVES ACCORDING TO HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS!!!

I'm done with you Kermos.

 

[Kermos]

I was forced to cut the following posts due to size. If you want to read them in full just look them up.... but the key point I have made red.

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

(16) Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you.—Comp. Luke 6:12 et seq., and in this Gospel John 6:70; John 13:18. The thought of His love for them, which had exalted them from the position of slaves to friends, from fishermen to Apostles, is made to remind them again (John 15:17) of the duty of love to each other. In John 15:20 he reminds them of the words which accompanied His own act of humility in washing their feet (John 13:15-16). The chiefest Apostle owed all to His gift and election, and should be ready to sacrifice all for his brethren, as He Himself was.

And ordained you.—The word “ordained” has acquired a special sense in modern English which is here misleading, and it will be better, therefore, to read appointed.

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

15:9-17 Those whom God loves as a Father, may despise the hatred of all the world. As the Father loved Christ, who was most worthy, so he loved his disciples, who were unworthy. All that love the Saviour should continue in their love to him, and take all occasions to show it. The joy of the hypocrite is but for a moment, but the joy of those who abide in Christ's love is a continual feast. They are to show their love to him by keeping his commandments. If the same power that first shed abroad the love of Christ's in our hearts, did not keep us in that love, we should not long abide in it. Christ's love to us should direct us to love each other. He speaks as about to give many things in charge, yet names this only; it includes many duties.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible

Ye have not chosen me - The word here translated "chosen" is that from which is derived the word "elect," and means the same thing. It is frequently thus translated, Mark 13:20; Matthew 24:22, Matthew 24:24, Matthew 24:31; Colossians 3:12. It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles. He says that it was not because they had chosen him to be their teacher and guide, but because he had designated them to be his apostles. See John 6:70; also Matthew 4:18-22. He thus shows them that his love for them was pure and disinterested; that it commenced when they had no affection for him; that it was not a matter of obligation on his part, and that therefore it placed them under more tender and sacred obligations to be entirely devoted to his service. The same may be said of all who are endowed with talents of any kind, or raised to any office in the church or the state. It is not that they have originated these talents, or laid God under obligation. What they have they owe to his sovereign goodness, and they are bound to devote all to his service. Equally true is this of all Christians. It was not that by nature they were more inclined than others to seek God, or that they had any native goodness to recommend them to him, but it was because he graciously inclined them by his Holy Spirit to seek him; because, in the language of the Episcopal and Methodist articles of religion, "The grace of Christ prevented them;" that is, went before them, commenced the work of their personal salvation, and thus God in sovereign mercy chose them as His own. Whatever Christians, then, possess, they owe to God, and by the most tender and sacred ties they are bound to be his followers.

I have chosen you - To be apostles. Yet all whom he now addressed were true disciples. Judas had left them; and when Jesus says he had chosen them to bear fruit, it may mean, also, that he had "chosen them to salvation, through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth," 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

Ordained you - Literally, I have placed you, appointed you, set you apart. It does not mean that he had done this by any formal public act of the imposition of hands, as we now use the word, but that he had designated or appointed them to this work, Luke 6:13-16; Matthew 10:2-5.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

16. Ye have not chosen me, but I … you—a wholesale memento after the lofty things He had just said about their mutual indwelling, and the unreservedness of the friendship they had been admitted to.

ordained—appointed.

you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit—that is, give yourselves to it.

and that your fruit should remain—showing itself to be an imperishable and ever growing principle. (Compare Pr 4:18; 2Jo 8).

that whatsoever ye shall ask, &c.—(See on [1859]Joh 15:7).

Matthew Poole's Commentary

Ye have not chosen me to be your Lord, Master, Saviour,

but I have chosen and ordained you; so we have it in our translation; but the Greek is, eyhka, I have set you, or placed you in a station. What choosing Christ here speaks of is doubted amongst various divines. Some think that our Saviour here speaks of his choice of them to the apostleship, as Luke 6:13 John 6:70: those who thus understand it, understand by going and bringing forth fruit, the apostles’ going out, preaching, and baptizing all nations, bringing forth fruit amongst the Gentiles. But others understand it of election to eternal life, and the means necessary to it; for our Saviour brings this as an argument of his greatest love: Judas was in the first sense chosen, yet not beloved with any such love: and this seemeth to be favoured by John 13:18, I speak not of you all; I know whom I have chosen: and certain it is, Augustine and others of the ancients from hence proved the freedom of election and special grace. Both senses may be united, for the eleven (to whom Christ was now speaking) were chosen in both senses; they were chosen for this end, to bring forth fruit amongst the Gentiles, turning many to righteousness, and that they might bring forth the fruit of holiness, in obedience to the gospel of Christ. Yea, not only to bring forth fruit, but that they might persevere in bringing forth fruit; and that thus doing, they might have a freedom of access to the throne of grace, and obtain whatsoever they should ask of the Father, in the name, for the merits, and through the mediation of the Lord

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you,.... Not but that they had made choice of him as their Lord and Master, Saviour and Redeemer; but not first, he was before hand with them; he chose them, before they chose him; so that his choice of them was entirely free, did not arise from any character, motive, or condition in them: the allusion is to a custom of the Jews, the reverse of which Christ acted; with whom it was usual for disciples to choose their own masters, and not masters their disciples: hence that advice of R. Joshuah ben Perachiah, said (r) to be the master of Jesus of Nazareth,

(s), "make", provide, or chose "thyself a master", and get thyself a companion.''

Those words in Sol 2:16; "my beloved is mine, and I am his", are thus paraphrased by the Jews (t);

"he hath chosen me, and I have chosen him:''

which is not amiss, provided the latter choice is thought to be by virtue, and in consequence of the former; if not, our Lord directly opposes the words and sense. This may be understood both of election to salvation, and of choice to the office of apostleship; in both which Christ was first, or chose them before they chose him, that good part, which shall never be taken away; for as they were chosen in him, so by him, before the foundation of the world; being as early loved by him, as by his Father; and in consequence thereof, were chosen by him, for his people and peculiar treasure; he first chose and called them to be his disciples and apostles, to follow him, preach his Gospel, and become fishers of men; and clothed them with full power and authority to exercise their high office:

and ordained you; which may design either ordination to eternal life, or apostleship, before the world began; as Jeremiah was ordained to be a prophet, before he was born; or else the investiture of them with that office, and with all gifts and graces necessary for the discharge of it; for when he called and sent forth his disciples to preach the Gospel, he is said to "ordain" them, Mark 3:14; and the rather this may be meant here, because the former is designed by his choosing them; or he set them, or planted them in himself, a fruitful soil, that they might shoot up and bear much fruit, as it follows:

Meyer's NT Commentary

John 15:16. Along with this dignity, however, of being Jesus’ friends, they were not to forget their dependence on Him, and their destiny therewith appointed.

ἐξελέξασθε … ἐξελεζάμην] as Master … as disciples, which is understood of itself from the historical relation, and is also to be gathered from the word chosen (John 6:70, John 13:18; Acts 1:2). Each of them was a σκεῦος ἐκλογῆς of Christ (Acts 9:15); in each the initiative of this peculiar relation lay not on his but on Christ’s side. Hence not to be taken merely in a general sense of the selection for the fellowship of love (Euth. Zigabenus, Luther, and several others, including Luthardt, Lange).

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges

1. Ye have not, &c.] Better, Ye chose Me not, but I chose you: ‘Ye’ and ‘I’ are emphatic; there is no emphasis on ‘Me.’ The reference is to their election to be Apostles, as the very word used seems to imply (comp. John 6:70, John 13:18; Acts 1:2); therefore the aorist as referring to a definite act in the past should be preserved in translation.

ordained you] Better, appointed you (as 2 Timothy 1:11 and Hebrews 1:2), in order to avoid an unreal connexion with ordination in the ecclesiastical sense. The same word used in the same sense as here is rendered ‘set’ in Acts 13:47 and 1 Corinthians 12:28, ‘ordained’ 1 Timothy 2:7, and ‘made’ Acts 20:28.

Pulpit Commentary

Verse 16. - From the thirteenth to the fifteenth verse, our Lord, in a brief digression, has justified a portion of the great commandment of mutual love. That love is to correspond with his love to the disciples, and to explain his self-sacrifice to them; he proves to them that they are his "friends," and therefore the objects of his dying love. Then the appeal is still further clenched by showing the origin and purport of his friendship for them. Ye did not choose me (ἐξελέξασθε... ἐξελεξάμην are middle, "you chose... I chose... for yourselves or for myself"), but I chose you. I selected you as individuals, not excluding thereby a gracious choice of other souls; I destined you to accomplish work dear to me and essential to my kingdom. Christ has already told them that he must "go away" from' them to the Father, and that they "cannot follow him now, but afterwards;" and he has also convinced them that, though he go away, he will "come again, and abide with them," and also that "severed" from him they can "do nothing." Consequently when he adds, I appointed you (see 1 Corinthians 12:28; 1 Timothy 1:12; Hebrews 1:2; Acts 20:28, for similar use of τιθέναι) as my apostles and representatives, to do work in my Name,
...snip...
the "fruit" was the "fruit of the Spirit,"
...snip...
"Fruit" in either case is only valuable when it is utilized by the Husbandman and according to his purpose.
...snip...
it does no good to the branch nor to the stem; it is the sacred property of the husbandman, whether for his own joy or for fresh seed. In this case your fruit will abide for ever, not in the branch, but in the Father's hands, that (ἵνα) whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my Name, he may give it you.
...snip...
close relation with John 14:13 and John 16:23. Hengstenberg says,
...snip...
But Westcott and Lange endeavor to combine
...snip...

You do not read. Can you read? You do not understand. Why don't you understand?

All of these commentaries show that only the disciples were chosen. Jesus had to have them for they had a job to do. They did not come knocking on his door looking for a job. Jesus chose them....

You are stuck on the same verse that shows you unable to make your point from elsewhere in the bible. But this is bad

interpretation on your part.

I'll pose your words right back at you, "Can you read? You do not understand.". You ignored the Word of God, again, so I'm going back to the Word of God whom I love!

Have you heard of The Great Commission? I'm listening as my Master speaks:

All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

(Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 28:18-20)
​

Thank You, Father of Heaven and Earth, for Your glorious Word of God!

God has me contrast your word against the Word of God, here:

the word of MTMattie		The Word of God
John 15 have nothing to do with you or me (MTMattie, proof post #6,395).		teaching them to observe all that I commanded you (Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 28/20).

You vehemently believe that you are not a friend of Jesus thus making yourself an enemy of Jesus because your "John 15 have nothing to do with you or me" (proof post #6,395) thus you self-willingly (2 Peter 2:9-10) exclude yourself from "I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you" (John 15:15-16). I reject your "John 15 have nothing to do with you or me". Lord Jesus, you chose me as your friend, and I thank you, my Lord and Savior! King Jesus, You know I am weak, but You are strong!

You conveyed that you put the Word of God, which our loving Holy Father in Heaven caused me to post, on your ignore in your very public prayer that you posted (proof post #6,518). Putting the Word of God on ignore is not the will of Christ's Father in Heaven. This same Christ of us Christians declares "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48). We Christians do not put the Christ's sayings on ignore.

Now, in your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) self-proclaimed ignorance, you run to non-biblical sources because the Word of God is not enough for you! As an aside, the words you composed at the conclusion of your post "All of these commentaries show that only the disciples (apostles) were chosen. Jesus had to have them for they had a job to do. They did not come knocking on his door looking for a job. Jesus chose them...." is the only place in your whole post that states "only the disciples (apostles)" - not a single commentary author as you quoted states "only the disciples (apostles)".

Expanding on the aside, with your specific quote portion "Jesus had to have them for they had a job to do", you remove Lord Jesus from choosing disciples to be His friends, yet your Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary contains "Ye have not chosen me, but I … you—a wholesale memento after the lofty things He had just said about their mutual indwelling, and the unreservedness of the friendship they had been admitted to", so you give the appearance of failing to read your own commentary (you quote it, you own it).

Your own commentary includes I selected you as individuals, not excluding thereby a gracious choice of other souls (see your Pulpit Commentary). You confusedly argue against yourself, yet God is not a God of confusion but of peace (1 Corinthians 14:33).

The Word of God issues these wonderful blessings to all believers in all time:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

And I am forevermore thankful to Lord Jesus Christ!

The only way for free-willian philosophers to acheive free-will is for them to add to the Word of God like "you apostles only did not choose Me, but I chose exclusively you apostles", and it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

Again, you have made it very clear with your amplification of "John 15:16 WAS NEVER MEANT FOR ALL PEOPLE" that you deny being a friend of Lord Jesus because you self-willingly (2 Peter 2:9-10) exclude yourself from "I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you" (John 15:15-16) as recorded in post #6,407.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE ELECTOR!!!

 

[MTMattie]

I'll pose your words right back at you, "Can you read? You do not understand.". You ignored the Word of God, again, so I'm going back to the Word of God whom I love!

Have you heard of The Great Commission? I'm listening as my Master speaks:

​

All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”​

​

(Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 28:18-20)​

​

All authority was give to Jesus in heaven and on earth. THis is true.

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, This is Jesus instucting his disciples ,

https://twitter.com/intent/tweet/?t...-did-jesus-mean-to-go-and-make-disciples.html
The main way that Jesus began the biggest movement in human history (Christianity) was by calling, developing, and sending out a handful of unqualified, untrained, and unlikely disciples.

It was common, in the first century, for a Jewish rabbi to have and lead disciples, who were pupils or students that were so devoted to their leader that they accepted their teaching and adhered to their lifestyle. They not only learned information, but they walked with their teacher in order to become like them. And they taught the recruited others to follow in the diciples footstwps of teaching and spreading the word.

More than that, true disciples assisted their leaders in spreading their mission. One major sign of maturity in a disciple is a willingness to help others follow. The main way that Jesus began the biggest movement in human history (Christianity) was by calling, developing, and sending out a handful of unqualified, untrained, and unlikely disciples.

https://twitter.com/intent/tweet/?t...-did-jesus-mean-to-go-and-make-disciples.html

 

[civic]

Lord God Almighty, you are glorified by we, the children of God, in Christ, keeping Your commandments. Lord Jesus, you are our nourishing sustenance, you fulfill your promise by lovingly filling us, and we are eternally grateful. Hallelujah and amen!

@GodsGrace, your Free-willian Philosophy includes everybody everywhere (believer and unbeliever considering entire lifetimes) in the scope of the word "world" in John 3:16, so your Free-willian Philosophy sums up as:

• God loves Daphne of the world before and after Daphne hears of Christ. Daphne chose to love/believe in Christ, so God rewards Daphne with eternal life.
• God loves Fred of the world before and after Fred hears of Christ. Fred chose not to love/believe in Christ, so God punishes Fred with eternal death.
• Conclusion: the Love of God is so very weak that people like Fred draw the Love of God to burn in hell for eternity according to your Free-willian Philosophy.

You reply by posting Strong's, a helpful tool, without consideration of Christ's contextual use of the word "world" as used by Lord Jesus in "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, so that every believing will in Him have eternal life, for God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that every believing in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:14-16).

Jesus sets the relation between differing populations of persons by way of Him including "the serpent in the wilderness" (John 3:14, Numbers 21:9), so the "population of bitten look to live" directly corresponds with the population of the "world" as per Jesus' usage (John 3:16), so the Word of God conclusively proves that the context establishes the word "world" as used by Jesus in John 3:16 includes ONLY the population of persons that currently believe in Jesus or will in the future believe in Jesus.

Your Free-willian Philosophy is dead wrong about the word "world" being everyone everywhere John 3:16 because of context and people like Bill.

You ignored me proclaiming the apostle Paul's writing "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13) regarding Psalm 110:3, Deuteronomy 23:23, Judges 5:1-2, 1 Corinthians 9:16-17, and 1 Peter 5:2 which eliminates any potential for your free-will concept from occuring in any of the passages you preached as your Free-willian Philosophy foundation. Behold, Paul says there is no free-will.

Some of the above and more was brand new composition to you in response to you in the post to which you replied, so I reply with your questions:

​

So does this mean you don't even read my posts to you?​

Does this mean that you're not doing any NEW thinking on this subject?​

​

You want to deviate from the word "world" in John 3:16 where you approached me as recorded in post #6,500 of this thread, but I am entertaining a plan to discontinue discussing other passages that you bring up with you until the context of the word "world" in John 3:16 is settled, for example, your Free-willian Philosophy falls apart when people like Fred are considered.

But, before ceasing the discussion of other passages, Psalm 110:3, Deuteronomy 23:23, and Judges 5:1-2 mistranslate the Hebrew word root נדב (generous) to the English word "voluntarily" as demonstrated in post #135 in this thread.

And, as previously discussed in post #3,868 in this thread, Paul uses free-will as illusory instead of concrete in Philemon 1:14 while compulsion is the concrete; furthermore, just like self-will earns reward (payment) unto self glorification boasting per 1 Corinthians 9:16-17 while Christ-image-will is entrusted with stewardship unto the glory of God.

You asked "What do the above have to do with free will??". The answer exists before you asked with “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29), and this Word of God applies to every occurrence of saving faith in the Bible. My Father causes me to believe in His Son whom my Father has sent. You contradict the Word of God with your heart's treasure (Matthew 15:16-19, Matthew 6:21) by stealing God's glory with your "apart from Jesus, I free-will chose to believe in Jesus". Christians do not live in contradiction to Christ.

Your flurry of closing questions can have an aggregated response of "you cannot love/believe Christ unless God imparts God's love into you" as per the following.

We children of God are the beneficiaries of God working God's love in us Christians, for the Christ of us Christians says “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another” (John 13:34).

And, John is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God” (1 John 4:7, see the phrase “love is from God” meaning God is the source of true love).

And, John expands with his writing of “God is Love, and the one who abides in Love abides in God, and God abides in him” (1 John 4:16, see the phrase “one who abides in Love” is equivocated with “one who abides” “in God” which extends from God’s exclusivity with “God is Love”).

So, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 13:34 states that the love, true love (John 3:33), the very righteous love, the Godly love within us children of God, this love is exclusively by/of/through God.

You do not follow and truly love Christ unless God causes the love.

We Christians follow and truly love Christ our Leader, Lord, and, God.

You accuse me of "copy and paste" as if it's evil, yet you hypocritically "copy and paste" Strong's in your post's opening. Hear the Word of the LORD "woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in." (Matthew 23:13).

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE GOD WHO LOVES ACCORDING TO HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS!!!

your Fatalism Philosophy excludes everybody everywhere (believer and unbeliever considering entire lifetimes) in the scope of the word "world" in John 3:16, so your Fatalism Philosophy sums up as:

• God hates Daphne of the world before and after Daphne hears of Christ. Daphne chose to love/believe in Christ, but God damns Daphne with reprobation.
• God hates Fred of the world before and after Fred hears of Christ. Fred chose not to love/believe in Christ, so God punishes the non elect Fred with eternal death.
• Conclusion: the hate of God is so such that people like Fred draw the hate of God to burn in hell for eternity according to your Fatalism Philosophy.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE GOD WHO LOVES ACCORDING TO HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS- EVERYONE ALL THE WORLD !!!

hope this helps!!!

 

[Johann]

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will

FREE WILL VS PREDESTINATION

Disclaimer: This article is a work in progress and given the nature of Romans 11:33 and 1 Corinthians 13:12 I expect it to, at least in part, remain a mystery. That said, in my own search for understanding on this subject, so I can better know our God and who He is, I've put together a collection of bible verses that pertains to specific points in reference to the subject of free will vs predestination. Here is what I've found so far. This article is heavily scripture filled with some notes and examples I've written down to remind myself and provide you the reader with any insight I've received thus far. Right now this is an article more written for myself than for you (yet), but at the request from others as well as the fact this article may never be complete given it's mysterious nature (see verses above) I'm publishing it now.



Reasoning is an attribute of wisdom. The bible encourages us to pursue wisdom.



17 But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere. - James 3:17 (ESV)



God invites us to reason together with Him.



“Come now, and let us reason together,”
Says the Lord,
“Though your sins are as scarlet,
They will be as white as snow;
Though they are red like crimson,
They will be like wool. - Isaiah 1:18



22 Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the Lord. 23 Abraham came near and said, “Will You indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city; will You indeed sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous who are in it? 25 Far be it from You to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly?” 26 So the Lord said, “If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare the whole place on their account.” 27 And Abraham replied, “Now behold, I have ventured to speak to the Lord, although I am but dust and ashes. 28 Suppose the fifty righteous are lacking five, will You destroy the whole city because of five?” And He said, “I will not destroy it if I find forty-five there.” 29 He spoke to Him yet again and said, “Suppose forty are found there?” And He said, “I will not do it on account of the forty.” 30 Then he said, “Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak; suppose thirty are found there?” And He said, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.” 31 And he said, “Now behold, I have ventured to speak to the Lord; suppose twenty are found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it on account of the twenty.” 32 Then he said, “Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak only this once; suppose ten are found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it on account of the ten.” 33 As soon as He had finished speaking to Abraham the Lord departed, and Abraham returned to his place. - Genesis 18:22-33



11 Then Moses entreated the Lord his God, and said, “O Lord, why does Your anger burn against Your people whom You have brought out from the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians speak, saying, ‘With evil intent He brought them out to kill them in the mountains and to destroy them from the face of the earth’? Turn from Your burning anger and change Your mind about doing harm to Your people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants to whom You swore by Yourself, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heavens, and all this land of which I have spoken I will give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.’” 14 So the Lord changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people. - Exodus 32:11-14



9 Then God said to Jonah, “Do you have good reason to be angry about the plant?” And he said, “I have good reason to be angry, even to death.” 10 Then the Lord said, “You had compassion on the plant for which you did not work and which you did not cause to grow, which came up overnight and perished overnight. 11 Should I not have compassion on Nineveh, the great city in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not know the difference between their right and left hand, as well as many animals?” - Jonah 4:9-11



25 It is a trap for a man to say rashly, “It is holy!”
And after the vows to make inquiry. - Proverbs 20:25



God's love may be a prominent characteristic of Him.



8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. - 1 John 4:8

Few verses directly declare what God is, and none of them is wrath. There are verses that say He is wrathful but none say He is wrath, or He is anger, or He is rage, etc.



6 Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, “The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; 7 who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations.” - Exodus 34:6-7

While God is Holy, visiting iniquity to the 3rd and 4th generations He keeps lovingkindness for thousands! (cf Psalm 103:8, 145:8)



14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. - John 1:14

That which He came full of are both are very loving attributes. Consider this in light of the first part of Hebrews 1:3 that says "And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature".



The importance of justice to God can be seen on the cross.



9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. - Romans 5:9



24 but let him who boasts boast of this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the Lord who exercises lovingkindness, justice and righteousness on earth; for I delight in these things,” declares the Lord. - Jeremiah 9:24



God's heart desire is for all to be saved.



23 Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live? - Ezekiel 18:23



32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord God. “Therefore, repent and live.” - Ezekiel 18:32



The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. - 2 Peter 3:9



3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. - 1 Timothy 2:3-4



10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. - 1 Timothy 4:10



11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, - Titus 2:11



7 I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance. - Luke 15:7



7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. - John 1:7



9 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. - Heb. 2:9



16 ‘After these things I will return,
And I will rebuild the tabernacle of David which has fallen,
And I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will restore it,

17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
And all the Gentiles who are called by My name,’ - Acts 15:17



15 It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all. 16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life. - 1 Timothy 1:15-16



10 But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be for all the people; - Luke 2:10



15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. - Mark 16:15

"The gospel" that means the good news. For who? "all creation". Therefore God's good news is for everyone. The very essence of the gospel is that it is indeed good news. If it weren't for everyone than it wouldn't be good news for them.



30 Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, - Acts 17:30



28 “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. - Matthew 11:28



6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. - Hebrews 11:6

Therefore God does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked (Eze. 18:23, 32).



10 For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.” - Luke 19:10

That lumps all mankind into one category, lost. There is no distinction here between the elect and non-elect.



4 And He *said to them, “Is it lawful to do good or to do harm on the Sabbath, to save a life or to kill?” But they kept silent. 5 After looking around at them with anger, grieved at their hardness of heart, He *said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” And he stretched it out, and his hand was restored. - Mark 3:1-6 (emphasis mine)



3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, - Romans 2:3-5

35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men. - Luke 6:35

22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? - Romans 9:22

Consider those three verses together. Paul is rebuking those who are stubborn and unrepentant of heart for not taking seriously the riches of God's kindness, tolerance, and patience. The same kindness that He gives to ungrateful and evil men (Luke 6:35), the same patience that He endures vessels of wrath with (Rom. 9:22).



21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. - John 17:21

so that... in other words, for this reason... "that the world may believe". Enabling the world to believe was then part of God's mission as stated in this verse.



4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? - Romans 2:4

This was being directed at those who were stubborn and unrepentant at heart (v5). Therefore the riches of God's grace were and are available to everyone!



26 For you first, God raised up His Servant and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways.” - Acts 3:26



And I will bless those who bless you,
And the one who curses you I will curse.
And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed.” - Genesis 12:3

Free Will vs Predestination

Disclaimer: This article is a work in progress and given the nature of Romans 11:33 and 1 Corinthians 13:12 I expect it to, at least in part, remain a myst

graceprovoked.org

J.

 

[GodsGrace]

FREE WILL VS PREDESTINATION

Disclaimer: This article is a work in progress and given the nature of Romans 11:33 and 1 Corinthians 13:12 I expect it to, at least in part, remain a mystery. That said, in my own search for understanding on this subject, so I can better know our God and who He is, I've put together a collection of bible verses that pertains to specific points in reference to the subject of free will vs predestination. Here is what I've found so far. This article is heavily scripture filled with some notes and examples I've written down to remind myself and provide you the reader with any insight I've received thus far. Right now this is an article more written for myself than for you (yet), but at the request from others as well as the fact this article may never be complete given it's mysterious nature (see verses above) I'm publishing it now.



Reasoning is an attribute of wisdom. The bible encourages us to pursue wisdom.



17 But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere. - James 3:17 (ESV)



God invites us to reason together with Him.



“Come now, and let us reason together,”
Says the Lord,
“Though your sins are as scarlet,
They will be as white as snow;
Though they are red like crimson,
They will be like wool. - Isaiah 1:18



22 Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the Lord. 23 Abraham came near and said, “Will You indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city; will You indeed sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous who are in it? 25 Far be it from You to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly?” 26 So the Lord said, “If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare the whole place on their account.” 27 And Abraham replied, “Now behold, I have ventured to speak to the Lord, although I am but dust and ashes. 28 Suppose the fifty righteous are lacking five, will You destroy the whole city because of five?” And He said, “I will not destroy it if I find forty-five there.” 29 He spoke to Him yet again and said, “Suppose forty are found there?” And He said, “I will not do it on account of the forty.” 30 Then he said, “Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak; suppose thirty are found there?” And He said, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.” 31 And he said, “Now behold, I have ventured to speak to the Lord; suppose twenty are found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it on account of the twenty.” 32 Then he said, “Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak only this once; suppose ten are found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it on account of the ten.” 33 As soon as He had finished speaking to Abraham the Lord departed, and Abraham returned to his place. - Genesis 18:22-33



11 Then Moses entreated the Lord his God, and said, “O Lord, why does Your anger burn against Your people whom You have brought out from the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians speak, saying, ‘With evil intent He brought them out to kill them in the mountains and to destroy them from the face of the earth’? Turn from Your burning anger and change Your mind about doing harm to Your people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants to whom You swore by Yourself, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heavens, and all this land of which I have spoken I will give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.’” 14 So the Lord changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people. - Exodus 32:11-14



9 Then God said to Jonah, “Do you have good reason to be angry about the plant?” And he said, “I have good reason to be angry, even to death.” 10 Then the Lord said, “You had compassion on the plant for which you did not work and which you did not cause to grow, which came up overnight and perished overnight. 11 Should I not have compassion on Nineveh, the great city in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not know the difference between their right and left hand, as well as many animals?” - Jonah 4:9-11



25 It is a trap for a man to say rashly, “It is holy!”
And after the vows to make inquiry. - Proverbs 20:25



God's love may be a prominent characteristic of Him.



8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. - 1 John 4:8

Few verses directly declare what God is, and none of them is wrath. There are verses that say He is wrathful but none say He is wrath, or He is anger, or He is rage, etc.



6 Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, “The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; 7 who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations.” - Exodus 34:6-7

While God is Holy, visiting iniquity to the 3rd and 4th generations He keeps lovingkindness for thousands! (cf Psalm 103:8, 145:8)



14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. - John 1:14

That which He came full of are both are very loving attributes. Consider this in light of the first part of Hebrews 1:3 that says "And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature".



The importance of justice to God can be seen on the cross.



9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. - Romans 5:9



24 but let him who boasts boast of this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the Lord who exercises lovingkindness, justice and righteousness on earth; for I delight in these things,” declares the Lord. - Jeremiah 9:24



God's heart desire is for all to be saved.



23 Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live? - Ezekiel 18:23



32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord God. “Therefore, repent and live.” - Ezekiel 18:32



The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. - 2 Peter 3:9



3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. - 1 Timothy 2:3-4



10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. - 1 Timothy 4:10



11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, - Titus 2:11



7 I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance. - Luke 15:7



7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. - John 1:7



9 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. - Heb. 2:9



16 ‘After these things I will return,
And I will rebuild the tabernacle of David which has fallen,
And I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will restore it,

17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
And all the Gentiles who are called by My name,’ - Acts 15:17



15 It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all. 16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life. - 1 Timothy 1:15-16



10 But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be for all the people; - Luke 2:10



15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. - Mark 16:15

"The gospel" that means the good news. For who? "all creation". Therefore God's good news is for everyone. The very essence of the gospel is that it is indeed good news. If it weren't for everyone than it wouldn't be good news for them.



30 Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, - Acts 17:30



28 “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. - Matthew 11:28



6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. - Hebrews 11:6

Therefore God does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked (Eze. 18:23, 32).



10 For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.” - Luke 19:10

That lumps all mankind into one category, lost. There is no distinction here between the elect and non-elect.



4 And He *said to them, “Is it lawful to do good or to do harm on the Sabbath, to save a life or to kill?” But they kept silent. 5 After looking around at them with anger, grieved at their hardness of heart, He *said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” And he stretched it out, and his hand was restored. - Mark 3:1-6 (emphasis mine)



3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, - Romans 2:3-5

35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men. - Luke 6:35

22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? - Romans 9:22

Consider those three verses together. Paul is rebuking those who are stubborn and unrepentant of heart for not taking seriously the riches of God's kindness, tolerance, and patience. The same kindness that He gives to ungrateful and evil men (Luke 6:35), the same patience that He endures vessels of wrath with (Rom. 9:22).



21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. - John 17:21

so that... in other words, for this reason... "that the world may believe". Enabling the world to believe was then part of God's mission as stated in this verse.



4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? - Romans 2:4

This was being directed at those who were stubborn and unrepentant at heart (v5). Therefore the riches of God's grace were and are available to everyone!



26 For you first, God raised up His Servant and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways.” - Acts 3:26



And I will bless those who bless you,
And the one who curses you I will curse.
And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed.” - Genesis 12:3

Free Will vs Predestination

Disclaimer: This article is a work in progress and given the nature of Romans 11:33 and 1 Corinthians 13:12 I expect it to, at least in part, remain a myst

graceprovoked.org

J.

Wow!

 

[GodsGrace]

All authority was give to Jesus in heaven and on earth. THis is true.

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, This is Jesus instucting his disciples ,

https://twitter.com/intent/tweet/?text=What Did Jesus Mean to 'Go and Make Disciples’?&url=https://www.christianity.com/wiki/christian-life/what-did-jesus-mean-to-go-and-make-disciples.html
The main way that Jesus began the biggest movement in human history (Christianity) was by calling, developing, and sending out a handful of unqualified, untrained, and unlikely disciples.

It was common, in the first century, for a Jewish rabbi to have and lead disciples, who were pupils or students that were so devoted to their leader that they accepted their teaching and adhered to their lifestyle. They not only learned information, but they walked with their teacher in order to become like them. And they taught the recruited others to follow in the diciples footstwps of teaching and spreading the word.

More than that, true disciples assisted their leaders in spreading their mission. One major sign of maturity in a disciple is a willingness to help others follow. The main way that Jesus began the biggest movement in human history (Christianity) was by calling, developing, and sending out a handful of unqualified, untrained, and unlikely disciples.

https://twitter.com/intent/tweet/?text=What Did Jesus Mean to 'Go and Make Disciples’?&url=https://www.christianity.com/wiki/christian-life/what-did-jesus-mean-to-go-and-make-disciples.html

I agree with you....
Just want to say that by the time of the Great Commission, I'd say that Jesus had the Apostles trained and that they were qualified.
After all Christianity spread through them.

 

[Johann]

Wow!

Buona notte e Dio ti benedica, sorella.

J.

 

[GodsGrace]

Buona notte e Dio ti benedica, sorella.

J.

Buona serata anche a te.

 

[Kermos]

To You, Oh God, be all the glory for the salvation of the world! Your works are marvelous! Your strength is unmatched, and Your righteousness is unmatchable!

The Beauty of The Sovereign Lord Jesus Christ expressed in song!

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE LORD AND GOD JESUS CHRIST!!!

 

[Kermos]

your Fatalism Philosophy excludes everybody everywhere (believer and unbeliever considering entire lifetimes) in the scope of the word "world" in John 3:16, so your Fatalism Philosophy sums up as:

• God hates Daphne of the world before and after Daphne hears of Christ. Daphne chose to love/believe in Christ, but God damns Daphne with reprobation.
• God hates Fred of the world before and after Fred hears of Christ. Fred chose not to love/believe in Christ, so God punishes the non elect Fred with eternal death.
• Conclusion: the hate of God is so such that people like Fred draw the hate of God to burn in hell for eternity according to your Fatalism Philosophy.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE GOD WHO LOVES ACCORDING TO HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS- EVERYONE ALL THE WORLD !!!

hope this helps!!!

As a blessed Christian in Christ, the work of God is that I believe in Him whom He has sent (John 6:29) according to Christ who is the Truth (John 14:6), so you calling me a follower of "Fatalism" means that you are calling my loving Leader Jesus Christ your wicked "Fatal", a.k.a. "Death", and no Christian applies Death to Lord Jesus Christ. Lord Jesus Christ is Life!

"You did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16); therefore, your free-willian reasoning is corrupt at conception because your premises and conclusion injected your free-willian "chose" where "chose" does not exist such as in "Daphne chose to love/believe in Christ".

Lord Jesus Christ's atonement always succeeds! But, you demand your CHRIST'S FAILURE ATONEMENT as recorded in post #3,926 of this thread. According to your Free-willian Philosophy Christ's atonement applies to all people everywhere in all time, and the following represents fleshly people, dead in sin, ungodly multitude, unbelievers:

• if Tom of the world chooses to believe in Christ before he dies, then God must profit Tom with eternal life being saved from the wrath of God.
• if Nancy of the world chooses to believe not in Christ right until her dying thoughts, then God must punish Nancy with eternal damnation being under the wrath of God.
• The conclusion: Christ's atonement succeeded in saving Tom of the world, and Christ's atonement failed in saving Nancy of the world.

So, you free-willians believe in failure atonement.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE LORD AND GOD JESUS CHRIST!!!

 

[MTMattie]

As a blessed Christian in Christ, the work of God is that I believe in Him whom He has sent (John 6:29) according to Christ who is the Truth (John 14:6), so you calling me a follower of "Fatalism" means that you are calling my loving Leader Jesus Christ your wicked "Fatal", a.k.a. "Death", and no Christian applies Death to Lord Jesus Christ. Lord Jesus Christ is Life!

"You did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16); therefore, your free-willian reasoning is corrupt at conception because your premises and conclusion injected your free-willian "chose" where "chose" does not exist such as in "Daphne chose to love/believe in Christ".

Lord Jesus Christ's atonement always succeeds! But, you demand your CHRIST'S FAILURE ATONEMENT as recorded in post #3,926 of this thread. According to your Free-willian Philosophy Christ's atonement applies to all people everywhere in all time, and the following represents fleshly people, dead in sin, ungodly multitude, unbelievers:

• if Tom of the world chooses to believe in Christ before he dies, then God must profit Tom with eternal life being saved from the wrath of God.
• if Nancy of the world chooses to believe not in Christ right until her dying thoughts, then God must punish Nancy with eternal damnation being under the wrath of God.
• The conclusion: Christ's atonement succeeded in saving Tom of the world, and Christ's atonement failed in saving Nancy of the world.

So, you free-willians believe in failure atonement.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE LORD AND GOD JESUS CHRIST!!!

 

[Kermos]

All authority was give to Jesus in heaven and on earth. THis is true.

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, This is Jesus instucting his disciples ,

https://twitter.com/intent/tweet/?text=What Did Jesus Mean to 'Go and Make Disciples’?&url=https://www.christianity.com/wiki/christian-life/what-did-jesus-mean-to-go-and-make-disciples.html
The main way that Jesus began the biggest movement in human history (Christianity) was by calling, developing, and sending out a handful of unqualified, untrained, and unlikely disciples.

It was common, in the first century, for a Jewish rabbi to have and lead disciples, who were pupils or students that were so devoted to their leader that they accepted their teaching and adhered to their lifestyle. They not only learned information, but they walked with their teacher in order to become like them. And they taught the recruited others to follow in the diciples footstwps of teaching and spreading the word.

More than that, true disciples assisted their leaders in spreading their mission. One major sign of maturity in a disciple is a willingness to help others follow. The main way that Jesus began the biggest movement in human history (Christianity) was by calling, developing, and sending out a handful of unqualified, untrained, and unlikely disciples.

https://twitter.com/intent/tweet/?text=What Did Jesus Mean to 'Go and Make Disciples’?&url=https://www.christianity.com/wiki/christian-life/what-did-jesus-mean-to-go-and-make-disciples.html

You presented commentary as the basis of your understanding, again, and you diverged from the specific point that the Christ of us Christians says "teaching them to observe all that I commanded you
(Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 28/20) which includes the Christ's precious saying of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) to all disciples (Matthew 28:18-20).

Listen about the treasure that is the Word of God "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (The Word of God, Lord Jesus Christ, John 12:48), and notice He didn't say "the commentary is what will judge him at the last day".

To @ProDeo and @GodsGrace, also, because of your "Like" of @MTMattie's post.

The point was very clear in the post to which you replied, so I pose your words right back at you, "Can you read? You do not understand." as recorded in post #6,525.

The Great Commission is profound regarding the Way (John 14:6) in many aspects, and we Christians understand because of the Word of God (John 1:14). I'm listening as my Master speaks:

​

All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”​

​

(Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 28:18-20)​

​

Thank You, Father of Heaven and Earth, for the love you show the world with revealing the Word of God!

God has me contrast your word against the Word of God, here:

the word of MTMattie		The Word of God
John 15 have nothing to do with you or me (MTMattie, proof post #6,395).		teaching them to observe all that I commanded you (Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 28/20).

You vehemently believe that you are not a friend of Jesus thus making yourself an enemy of Jesus because your "John 15 have nothing to do with you or me" (proof post #6,395) thus you self-willingly (2 Peter 2:9-10) exclude yourself from "I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you" (John 15:15-16). I reject your "John 15 have nothing to do with you or me". Lord Jesus, you chose me as your friend, and I thank you, my Lord and Savior! King Jesus, You know I am weak, but You are strong!

You conveyed that you put the Word of God, which our loving Holy Father in Heaven caused me to post, on your ignore in your very public prayer that you posted (proof post #6,518). Putting the Word of God on ignore is not the will of Christ's Father in Heaven. This same Christ of us Christians declares "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48). We Christians do not put the Christ's sayings on ignore.

Now, in your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) self-proclaimed ignorance, you run to non-biblical sources because the Word of God is not enough for you! As an aside, the words you composed at the conclusion of your post "All of these commentaries show that only the disciples (apostles) were chosen. Jesus had to have them for they had a job to do. They did not come knocking on his door looking for a job. Jesus chose them...." is the only place in your whole post that states "only the disciples (apostles)" - not a single commentary author as you quoted states "only the disciples (apostles)".

Expanding on the aside, with your specific quote portion "Jesus had to have them for they had a job to do", you remove Lord Jesus from choosing disciples to be His friends, yet your Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary contains "Ye have not chosen me, but I … you—a wholesale memento after the lofty things He had just said about their mutual indwelling, and the unreservedness of the friendship they had been admitted to", so you give the appearance of failing to read your own commentary (you quote it, you own it).

Your own commentary includes I selected you as individuals, not excluding thereby a gracious choice of other souls (see your Pulpit Commentary). You confusedly argue against yourself, yet God is not a God of confusion but of peace (1 Corinthians 14:33).

The Word of God issues these wonderful blessings to all believers in all time:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

And I am forevermore thankful to Lord Jesus Christ!

The only way for free-willian philosophers to acheive free-will is for them to add to the Word of God like "you apostles only did not choose Me, but I chose exclusively you apostles", and it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

Again, you have made it very clear with your amplification of "John 15:16 WAS NEVER MEANT FOR ALL PEOPLE" that you deny being a friend of Lord Jesus because you self-willingly (2 Peter 2:9-10) exclude yourself from "I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you" (John 15:15-16) as recorded in post #6,407.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE HOLY LIVING WORD OF GOD!!!

 

[civic]

As a blessed Christian in Christ, the work of God is that I believe in Him whom He has sent (John 6:29) according to Christ who is the Truth (John 14:6), so you calling me a follower of "Fatalism" means that you are calling my loving Leader Jesus Christ your wicked "Fatal", a.k.a. "Death", and no Christian applies Death to Lord Jesus Christ. Lord Jesus Christ is Life!

"You did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16); therefore, your free-willian reasoning is corrupt at conception because your premises and conclusion injected your free-willian "chose" where "chose" does not exist such as in "Daphne chose to love/believe in Christ".

Lord Jesus Christ's atonement always succeeds! But, you demand your CHRIST'S FAILURE ATONEMENT as recorded in post #3,926 of this thread. According to your Free-willian Philosophy Christ's atonement applies to all people everywhere in all time, and the following represents fleshly people, dead in sin, ungodly multitude, unbelievers:

• if Tom of the world chooses to believe in Christ before he dies, then God must profit Tom with eternal life being saved from the wrath of God.
• if Nancy of the world chooses to believe not in Christ right until her dying thoughts, then God must punish Nancy with eternal damnation being under the wrath of God.
• The conclusion: Christ's atonement succeeded in saving Tom of the world, and Christ's atonement failed in saving Nancy of the world.

So, you free-willians believe in failure atonement.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE LORD AND GOD JESUS CHRIST!!!

projecting since God/ Jesus is noting like you make Him out to be- you call love hate and hate love. You cannot tell one form the other in your fatalistic man made theology.

your fatalism is a failed savior, atonement, gospel and god.

 

[MTMattie]

You conveyed that you put the Word of God, which our loving Holy Father in Heaven caused me to post, on your ignore in your very public prayer that you posted (proof post #6,518). Putting the Word of God on ignore is not the will of Christ's Father in Heaven. This same Christ of us Christians declares "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48). We Christians do not put the Christ's sayings on ignore.

YES. YOU do. For to not understand is the same as ignore. and certainly to deny what was said is to totally ignore.

The Pharisees’ question... “Who do you think you are?”.

Jesus replies with..." ‘Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.’

The Pharisees scoff at this with...‘You are not yet fifty years old, and you have seen Abraham!’???????????????

Jesus comes back with ..... ' I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I am!’

So the Jews set about to stone him for the reason that you deny. I wont confuse you any more for you have shown yourself to not even be
of the caliber of a Pharisee, for they knew.... and you do not.

What is this I am that Jesus mentions here.... I am not going to embellish as you are so often wont to do.

Do you remember when Moses was talking to God in Exodus 3..... God said to Moses. (ARE YOU GOING TO ARGUE THAT GOD DID NOT TALK TO MOSES... THAT IT WAS SOME OTHER gOD?)

Reminder... After the fall of man in Genesis, mankind no longer had direct access to God, and even the people of Israel only knew certain aspects of their Creator. In Exodus, God states His own name for the first time: “God said to Moses, ‘I AM WHO I AM.’ And He said, ‘Say this to the people of Israel: ‘I AM has sent me to you’” (Exodus 3:14).

Now @Kermos do you have (Moderators... I am reporting myself because I am going to say something here and if you want to redact it... fine, but I do hope @Kermos reads this reply before you do. Thanks you... I regard myself as warned)

continuing... @ Kermos. Do you have the cojones to once again suggest God, the Heavenly Father is a liar?
Please continue.
So Jesus tells the Pharisees "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I am!"

The Father is I AM. Jesus is IAM....... In the beginning and before Yahweh was I AM and the WORD who became Jesus
was I AM.

Is that clear.

 

[civic]

You presented commentary as the basis of your understanding, again, and you diverged from the specific point that the Christ of us Christians says "teaching them to observe all that I commanded you
(Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 28/20) which includes the Christ's precious saying of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) to all disciples (Matthew 28:18-20).

Listen about the treasure that is the Word of God "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (The Word of God, Lord Jesus Christ, John 12:48), and notice He didn't say "the commentary is what will judge him at the last day".

To @ProDeo and @GodsGrace, also, because of your "Like" of @MTMattie's post.

The point was very clear in the post to which you replied, so I pose your words right back at you, "Can you read? You do not understand." as recorded in post #6,525.

The Great Commission is profound regarding the Way (John 14:6) in many aspects, and we Christians understand because of the Word of God (John 1:14). I'm listening as my Master speaks:

​

All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”​

​

(Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 28:18-20)​

​

Thank You, Father of Heaven and Earth, for the love you show the world with revealing the Word of God!

God has me contrast your word against the Word of God, here:

the word of MTMattie		The Word of God
John 15 have nothing to do with you or me (MTMattie, proof post #6,395).		teaching them to observe all that I commanded you (Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 28/20).

You vehemently believe that you are not a friend of Jesus thus making yourself an enemy of Jesus because your "John 15 have nothing to do with you or me" (proof post #6,395) thus you self-willingly (2 Peter 2:9-10) exclude yourself from "I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you" (John 15:15-16). I reject your "John 15 have nothing to do with you or me". Lord Jesus, you chose me as your friend, and I thank you, my Lord and Savior! King Jesus, You know I am weak, but You are strong!

You conveyed that you put the Word of God, which our loving Holy Father in Heaven caused me to post, on your ignore in your very public prayer that you posted (proof post #6,518). Putting the Word of God on ignore is not the will of Christ's Father in Heaven. This same Christ of us Christians declares "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48). We Christians do not put the Christ's sayings on ignore.

Now, in your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) self-proclaimed ignorance, you run to non-biblical sources because the Word of God is not enough for you! As an aside, the words you composed at the conclusion of your post "All of these commentaries show that only the disciples (apostles) were chosen. Jesus had to have them for they had a job to do. They did not come knocking on his door looking for a job. Jesus chose them...." is the only place in your whole post that states "only the disciples (apostles)" - not a single commentary author as you quoted states "only the disciples (apostles)".

Expanding on the aside, with your specific quote portion "Jesus had to have them for they had a job to do", you remove Lord Jesus from choosing disciples to be His friends, yet your Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary contains "Ye have not chosen me, but I … you—a wholesale memento after the lofty things He had just said about their mutual indwelling, and the unreservedness of the friendship they had been admitted to", so you give the appearance of failing to read your own commentary (you quote it, you own it).

Your own commentary includes I selected you as individuals, not excluding thereby a gracious choice of other souls (see your Pulpit Commentary). You confusedly argue against yourself, yet God is not a God of confusion but of peace (1 Corinthians 14:33).

The Word of God issues these wonderful blessings to all believers in all time:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

And I am forevermore thankful to Lord Jesus Christ!

The only way for free-willian philosophers to acheive free-will is for them to add to the Word of God like "you apostles only did not choose Me, but I chose exclusively you apostles", and it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

Again, you have made it very clear with your amplification of "John 15:16 WAS NEVER MEANT FOR ALL PEOPLE" that you deny being a friend of Lord Jesus because you self-willingly (2 Peter 2:9-10) exclude yourself from "I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you" (John 15:15-16) as recorded in post #6,407.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE HOLY LIVING WORD OF GOD!!!

Jesus chose the 12, not you. You lack biblical understanding of the text, who it was written to and about in its context.

next fallacy

 

[ProDeo]

You presented commentary as the basis of your understanding,

You are correct.

I subscribed to this forum with my God given free will.

And I was wondering (since you tagged me) if I should respond, I wasn't in the mood, but as you can see I did after all, it was a close call.

Maybe after a cup of coffee I would not have.

Free will goes everywhere my friend, you did not have to tag me.

But since you believe you don't have free will, who told you to tag me?

or maybe quoting your exact words - You presented commentary as the basis of your understanding,

Be well.

 

[GodsGrace]

You presented commentary as the basis of your understanding, again, and you diverged from the specific point that the Christ of us Christians says "teaching them to observe all that I commanded you
(Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 28/20) which includes the Christ's precious saying of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) to all disciples (Matthew 28:18-20).

Listen about the treasure that is the Word of God "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (The Word of God, Lord Jesus Christ, John 12:48), and notice He didn't say "the commentary is what will judge him at the last day".

To @ProDeo and @GodsGrace, also, because of your "Like" of @MTMattie's post.

The point was very clear in the post to which you replied, so I pose your words right back at you, "Can you read? You do not understand." as recorded in post #6,525.

The Great Commission is profound regarding the Way (John 14:6) in many aspects, and we Christians understand because of the Word of God (John 1:14). I'm listening as my Master speaks:

​

All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”​

​

(Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 28:18-20)​

​

Thank You, Father of Heaven and Earth, for the love you show the world with revealing the Word of God!

God has me contrast your word against the Word of God, here:

the word of MTMattie		The Word of God
John 15 have nothing to do with you or me (MTMattie, proof post #6,395).		teaching them to observe all that I commanded you (Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 28/20).

You vehemently believe that you are not a friend of Jesus thus making yourself an enemy of Jesus because your "John 15 have nothing to do with you or me" (proof post #6,395) thus you self-willingly (2 Peter 2:9-10) exclude yourself from "I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you" (John 15:15-16). I reject your "John 15 have nothing to do with you or me". Lord Jesus, you chose me as your friend, and I thank you, my Lord and Savior! King Jesus, You know I am weak, but You are strong!

You conveyed that you put the Word of God, which our loving Holy Father in Heaven caused me to post, on your ignore in your very public prayer that you posted (proof post #6,518). Putting the Word of God on ignore is not the will of Christ's Father in Heaven. This same Christ of us Christians declares "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48). We Christians do not put the Christ's sayings on ignore.

Now, in your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) self-proclaimed ignorance, you run to non-biblical sources because the Word of God is not enough for you! As an aside, the words you composed at the conclusion of your post "All of these commentaries show that only the disciples (apostles) were chosen. Jesus had to have them for they had a job to do. They did not come knocking on his door looking for a job. Jesus chose them...." is the only place in your whole post that states "only the disciples (apostles)" - not a single commentary author as you quoted states "only the disciples (apostles)".

Expanding on the aside, with your specific quote portion "Jesus had to have them for they had a job to do", you remove Lord Jesus from choosing disciples to be His friends, yet your Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary contains "Ye have not chosen me, but I … you—a wholesale memento after the lofty things He had just said about their mutual indwelling, and the unreservedness of the friendship they had been admitted to", so you give the appearance of failing to read your own commentary (you quote it, you own it).

Your own commentary includes I selected you as individuals, not excluding thereby a gracious choice of other souls (see your Pulpit Commentary). You confusedly argue against yourself, yet God is not a God of confusion but of peace (1 Corinthians 14:33).

The Word of God issues these wonderful blessings to all believers in all time:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

And I am forevermore thankful to Lord Jesus Christ!

The only way for free-willian philosophers to acheive free-will is for them to add to the Word of God like "you apostles only did not choose Me, but I chose exclusively you apostles", and it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

Again, you have made it very clear with your amplification of "John 15:16 WAS NEVER MEANT FOR ALL PEOPLE" that you deny being a friend of Lord Jesus because you self-willingly (2 Peter 2:9-10) exclude yourself from "I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you" (John 15:15-16) as recorded in post #6,407.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE HOLY LIVING WORD OF GOD!!!

Were you at the foot washing?
Were you at the last supper?

Jesus was speaking to His APOSTLES...those He would send out in the Great Commission.

Check out the beginning of all the gospels...
JESUS CHOSE THE APOSTLES....

Not each and every disciple.
The MULTITUDES followed Him....
He spoke to them.

But He also spoke to His Apostles...
just as He explained the parables to THEM ONLY.

John 17:20-26 if FOR ALL BELIEVERS.

This is common knowledge K...and not something that should be debated.

If you wish to be reformed/Calvinist....fine,
but at least try to understand the basics of scripture.

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.​ Jump to: Alford • Barnes • Bengel • Benson • BI • Calvin • Cambridge • Chrysostom • Clarke • Darby • Ellicott • Expositor's • Exp Dct • Exp Grk • Gaebelein • GSB • Gill • Gray • Guzik • Haydock • Hastings • Homiletics • ICC • JFB • Kelly • King • Lange • MacLaren • MHC • MHCW • Meyer • Parker • PNT • Poole • Pulpit • Sermon • SCO • Teed • TTB • VWS • WES • TSK​ EXPOSITORY (ENGLISH BIBLE)​ Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers​ (16) Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you.—Comp. Luke 6:12 et seq., and in this Gospel John 6:70; John 13:18. The thought of His love for them, which had exalted them from the position of slaves to friends, from fishermen to Apostles, is made to remind them again (John 15:17) of the duty of love to each other. In John 15:20 he reminds them of the words which accompanied His own act of humility in washing their feet (John 13:15-16). The chiefest Apostle owed all to His gift and election, and should be ready to sacrifice all for his brethren, as He Himself was. And ordained you.—The word “ordained” has acquired a special sense in modern English which is here misleading, and it will be better, therefore, to read appointed. That ye should go and bring forth fruit.—Comp. Matthew 13:44; Matthew 18:15; Matthew 19:21, for the idea of going away and doing something. It implies here the activity of the Apostles as distinct from that of Christ. Each one as a branch ever joined to Christ was to grow away from Him in the development of his own work, and was to bring forth his own fruit. The margin compares Matthew 28:19, probably, with the thought of their fulfilling the Apostle’s missionary work. This view has been commonly adopted, but it gives to the word “go’” a fulness of meaning which is scarcely ----------------------------------------------------------------- . Ye did not choose me (ἐξελέξασθε... ἐξελεξάμην are middle, "you chose... I chose... for yourselves or for myself"), but I chose you. I selected you as individuals, not excluding thereby a gracious choice of other souls; I destined you to accomplish work dear to me and essential to my kingdom. Christ has already told them that he must "go away" from' them to the Father, and that they "cannot follow him now, but afterwards;" and he has also convinced them that, though he go away, he will "come again, and abide with them," and also that "severed" from him they can "do nothing." Consequently when he adds, I appointed you (see 1 Corinthians 12:28; 1 Timothy 1:12; Hebrews 1:2; Acts 20:28, for similar use of τιθέναι) as my apostles and representatives, to do work in my Name, there is no contradiction in his adding, that ye should go forth, depart into the world with my message and in my Name, as I am "departing" to the Father, to rule over you from a higher and more august position. And bear fruit. A passing reference to the imagery of the first part of the chapter, showing that their "going forth or away" upon this mission would not separate them from his Spirit, or divide the link without which they could bear no fruit at all. The "fruit" may here, in its issues, suggest another class of ideas. In the first case the "fruit" was the "fruit of the Spirit," but here it would seem to be the abiding consequence of the "greater works" which they would be called upon to do. warranted. source: biblehub commentary ​

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