An Article on free will

[praise_yeshua]

No. In fact when you finally realize God is God and can do whatever He wants wants

You love conflating.

God doesn't WANT to destroy those just like you and save just you.

The god you present is your imagination....

YOU WOULD WANT TO DO THIS.... Not God.

God is so much better than you. Yet, you've fabricated Him just like what you would do.

In fact, you love your children more than your "god" potentially loves them.... Isn't that special.

 

[TomL]

But aren't Calvinists threatened by the idea that God will exercise his sovereignty in a way they don't approve of?

The God of the bible is sovereign enough to create man with a limited free will and still achieve his purpose

 

[Rockson]

Show me where I said people are saved prior to the knowledge of the Gospel.

One of you Calvinists said the following on here a while back. "The word of Salvation informs the saved they are saved, duh."

 

[TomL]

One of you Calvinists said the following on here a while back. "The word of Salvation informs the saved they are saved, duh."

I have seen such claims from Calvinists

Irresistible Grace​

The word of Salvation informs the saved they are saved, duh. Would it be good news to you if you found out your sins have been , youve been Justified by the blood of Christ.

• brightfame52
• Post #216
• Mar 29, 2024
• Forum: Calvinism vs. Arminianism

 

[Rockson]

I have seen such claims from Calvinists

Irresistible Grace​

The word of Salvation informs the saved they are saved, duh. Would it be good news to you if you found out your sins have been , youve been Justified by the blood of Christ.

• brightfame52
• Post #216
• Mar 29, 2024
• Forum: Calvinism vs. Arminianism

Yeah that's the post. That obviously puts one in the position of being saved BEFORE they have the knowledge of the gospel. We have to believe Paul the Apostle would have stood against such a claim in the most strongest terms.
It truly would make the preaching of the gospel unnecessary. My hope if the one who said it and all Calvinist might rise up and come into the light of the truth. Surely if they'll give it some real though they would have to conclude such can't be the knowledge of the TRUTH.

 

[TomL]

Yeah that's the post. That obviously puts one in the position of being saved BEFORE they have the knowledge of the gospel. We have to believe Paul the Apostle would have stood against such a claim in the most strongest terms.
It truly would make the preaching of the gospel unnecessary. My hope if the one who said it and all Calvinist might rise up and come into the light of the truth. Surely if they'll give it some real though they would have to conclude such can't be the knowledge of the TRUTH.

It's rather heretical idea that one could be saved apart from the gospel

 

[Kermos]

Is stealing some of the Glory of God by crediting their own free will something that has eternal consequences?

Yes. You posed a poignant question.

The majestic, loving, just, and Holy God declares "I am YHWH; that is my name; my glory I give to no other" (Isaiah 42:8), and the psalmist proclaims "YHWH is my light and my salvation" (Psalm 27:1).

Grace is unearned love.

Mercy is undeserved forgiveness.

Glory is majestic beauty, honor, distinction, splendor, even perfection when in the realm of the One True Holy God.

The user @Ahar on this site conveyed in post #1,922 that Ahar must earn God's love by way of Ahar self-willingly (2 Peter 2:9-10) loving God; otherwise, God's lovingly reserved seat in Salvation for Ahar would remain empty for all eternity because Ahar failed to choose to love God to obtain the reward of salvation (the free-willian philosophy is so very convoluted that other ungodly results percolate, too).

Since we are on the subject of love, Lord Jesus pronounces "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments" (John 14:15).

Relatedly, the Son of Man pronounces "I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me" (John 5:30).

The Son of God also pronounces "why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right" (Luke 12:57).

In Ahar's free-willian philosophy, the results are:

• Ahar idolizes the creature Ahar (Romans 1:18-25) because Ahar believes that in Ahar's own initiative, Ahar judges what is right (see Luke 12:56 quoted above).
• Ahar believes that Ahar is greater than Jesus as a result of the above bullet point (see John 5:30 quoted above).
• Ahar steals the glory of God (see Isaiah 42:8 quoted above).

Free-willians think that they have earned grace, but they are really believing that they have earned unearned love, so they are in a state of confusion, yet God is not a God of confusion but of order (1 Corinthians 14:33).

Under Free-willian Philosophy, the Philosopher's hold to "I do this, so I get that, and without the 'this' there is no 'that'"; in other words, the philosophers believe that they earn God's love unto salvation - which nullifies God's grace!

@TomL believes that he deserves forgiveness from his sins because of TomL's own initiative to choose to believe in the Righteous One, Jesus (see post #1,932 as evidence); in other words, since TomL pointed TomL's heart at Jesus, then God must absolutely grant salvation to TomL, yet without TomL's self-willed belief, TomL would not be forgiven - which means that TomL deserves God's forgiveness, which nullifies God's mercy.

"it does depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, so God has mercy" (the heart of TomL).

Hmmm, that sounds vaguely familiar, do you think so, Rogue Tomato?

Perhaps, that TomL conveyance is an adaption of a verse posted on this thread at some point.

"it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy" (the Apostle Paul, Romans 9:16).

That's it, Rogue Tomato, "it does depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, so God has mercy" (the word of TomL) is an adulteration of Apostolic testimony "it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy" (the Apostle Paul, Romans 9:16)!

In the instance of Ahar and TomL, we can see that the Free-willian Philosophy results in the glory of man which is man's heart stealing the glory of God in the salvation of man (Isaiah 42:8, Exodus 20:15).

Free-willian Philosophers create an idol which is themselves (Exodus 20:3-4) just as the Apostle Paul wrote in Romans 1:18-32.

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE TO THE ONE WHO IS, AND WAS, AND IS TO COME, THE AUTHOR AND PERFECTER OF THE FAITH!!!

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Yes. You posed a poignant question.

The majestic, loving, just, and Holy God declares "I am YHWH; that is my name; my glory I give to no other" (Isaiah 42:8), and the psalmist proclaims "YHWH is my light and my salvation" (Psalm 27:1).

Grace is unearned love.

Mercy is undeserved forgiveness.

Glory is majestic beauty, honor, distinction, splendor, even perfection when in the realm of the One True Holy God.

The user @Ahar on this site conveyed in post #1,922 that Ahar must earn God's love by way of Ahar self-willingly (2 Peter 2:9-10) loving God; otherwise, God's lovingly reserved seat in Salvation for Ahar would remain empty for all eternity because Ahar failed to choose to love God to obtain the reward of salvation (the free-willian philosophy is so very convoluted that other ungodly results percolate, too).

Since we are on the subject of love, Lord Jesus pronounces "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments" (John 14:15).

Relatedly, the Son of Man pronounces "I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me" (John 5:30).

The Son of God also pronounces "why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right" (Luke 12:57).

In Ahar's free-willian philosophy, the results are:

• Ahar idolizes the creature Ahar (Romans 1:18-25) because Ahar believes that in Ahar's own initiative, Ahar judges what is right (see Luke 12:56 quoted above).
• Ahar believes that Ahar is greater than Jesus as a result of the above bullet point (see John 5:30 quoted above).
• Ahar steals the glory of God (see Isaiah 42:8 quoted above).

Free-willians think that they have earned grace, but they are really believing that they have earned unearned love, so they are in a state of confusion, yet God is not a God of confusion but of order (1 Corinthians 14:33).

Under Free-willian Philosophy, the Philosopher's hold to "I do this, so I get that, and without the 'this' there is no 'that'"; in other words, the philosophers believe that they earn God's love unto salvation - which nullifies God's grace!

@TomL believes that he deserves forgiveness from his sins because of TomL's own initiative to choose to believe in the Righteous One, Jesus (see post #1,932 as evidence); in other words, since TomL pointed TomL's heart at Jesus, then God must absolutely grant salvation to TomL, yet without TomL's self-willed belief, TomL would not be forgiven - which means that TomL deserves God's forgiveness, which nullifies God's mercy.

"it does depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, so God has mercy" (the heart of TomL).

Hmmm, that sounds vaguely familiar, do you think so, Rogue Tomato?

Perhaps, that TomL conveyance is an adaption of a verse posted on this thread at some point.

"it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy" (the Apostle Paul, Romans 9:16).

That's it, Rogue Tomato, "it does depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, so God has mercy" (the word of TomL) is an adulteration of Apostolic testimony "it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy" (the Apostle Paul, Romans 9:16)!

In the instance of Ahar and TomL, we can see that the Free-willian Philosophy results in the glory of man which is man's heart stealing the glory of God in the salvation of man (Isaiah 42:8, Exodus 20:15).

Free-willian Philosophers create an idol which is themselves (Exodus 20:3-4) just as the Apostle Paul wrote in Romans 1:18-32.

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE TO THE ONE WHO IS, AND WAS, AND IS TO COME, THE AUTHOR AND PERFECTER OF THE FAITH!!!

Excellent. By the way, given your quote that Jesus is the AUTHOR and perfecter of our faith, how could anyone reason that faith is the work God requires from us? How often Free-willers worry about someone implying God is the AUTHOR of sin! Then they turn around and neglect the scripture that CLEARLY SAYS Jesus is the AUTHOR and PERFECTER of our FAITH.

It kind of reminds me of the difference between Religion and Christianity. In Religion, we are required to do something (like perform a sacrifice or offer the work of faith) in order to placate or please God. In Christianity, God grants us the faith we need to trust in the sacrifice of His Son.

Free-willism is man-centered. Reformed theology/election/whatever you want to call it is entirely God-centered.

 

[TomL]

@TomL believes that he deserves forgiveness from his sins because of TomL's own initiative to choose to believe in the Righteous One, Jesus (see post #1,932 as evidence); in other words, since TomL pointed TomL's heart at Jesus, then God must absolutely grant salvation to TomL, yet without TomL's self-willed belief, TomL would not be forgiven - which means that TomL deserves God's forgiveness, which nullifies God's mercy.

There is still an injunction against bearing false witness. Maybe you should take it seriously

and believe scripture

Romans 4:4–5 (ESV) — 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
...............
Romans 4:16 (ESV) — 16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

"it does depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, so God has mercy" (the heart of TomL).

ripping a verse from its context and misapplying it

in context it has absolutely nothing to do with free will.

Rather it is dealing with god's election to service and his choice of Jacob over Esau

Romans 9:11–16 (ESV) — 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” 14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

God chose a people to carry his message and bring in the messiah. He chose the descendant of Jacob rather than Esau

Hmmm, that sounds vaguely familiar, do you think so, Rogue Tomato?

Perhaps, that TomL conveyance is an adaption of a verse posted on this thread at some point.

"it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy" (the Apostle Paul, Romans 9:16).

again taken out of context and misapplied

Typical fare in Calvinist writings

That's it, Rogue Tomato, "it does depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, so God has mercy" (the word of TomL) is an adulteration of Apostolic testimony "it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy" (the Apostle Paul, Romans 9:16)!

In the instance of Ahar and TomL, we can see that the Free-willian Philosophy results in the glory of man which is man's heart stealing the glory of God in the salvation of man (Isaiah 42:8, Exodus 20:15).

Free-willian Philosophers create an idol which is themselves (Exodus 20:3-4) just as the Apostle Paul wrote in Romans 1:18-32.

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE TO THE ONE WHO IS, AND WAS, AND IS TO COME, THE AUTHOR AND PERFECTER OF THE FAITH!!!

lets see

Exodus 20:3–5 (ESV) — 3 “You shall have no other gods before me. 4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,

Romans 1:18–32 (ESV) — 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. 28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

I looked but cannot seem to find anything there about free will

Seems you handle those passages as you handle others - Out of context

 

[TomL]

Excellent. By the way, given your quote that Jesus is the AUTHOR and perfecter of our faith, how could anyone reason that faith is the work God requires from us? How often Free-willers worry about someone implying God is the AUTHOR of sin! Then they turn around and neglect the scripture that CLEARLY SAYS Jesus is the AUTHOR and PERFECTER of our FAITH.

It kind of reminds me of the difference between Religion and Christianity. In Religion, we are required to do something (like perform a sacrifice or offer the work of faith) in order to placate or please God. In Christianity, God grants us the faith we need to trust in the sacrifice of His Son.

Free-willism is man-centered. Reformed theology/election/whatever you want to call it is entirely God-centered.

Maybe because the bible states it is something we must do

Acts 16:30–31 (ESV) — 30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

John 6:27 (ESV) — 27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.”

and maybe because you took the referenced verse out of context

It is not saying Jesus is doing all of our believing for us

Calvinists also often misapply Hebrews 12:2 to this concept of faith being an exclusive gift to a Gnostic-style set of pre-selected elect people. The use of this verse is the equivalent of the Calvinist screaming at the top of his lungs that context means nothing to him and that he has no idea what the passage is talking about. They see their buzz words and think that it is an excellent opportunity for them to import their ideas, and in so doing, they miss the entire point, and self[1]identify as the milk-sop in Hebrews 5:11-13. This is not a text book of theological proof texts.When Calvinists use this verse, the idea they’re bringing to it is that Jesus is authoring the individual’s volitional belief in the gospel and then carries that belief through until the person’s death. But this has absolutely nothing to do with that nonsense whatsoever. This verse is addressing the continuity of the faith for the Jew from the Mosaic Torah and Old Testament to faith in Christ under the New Testament. The tempting mindset for the Jew of that day would be to say that “Jehovah and Moses got us started in our faith, and now we’ve changed channels so Jesus and wrap it up and finish it off.”Hebrews 12:2 (KJV) 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.Back in chapter 1, the author reminded the reader that the same God who spoke to their fathers in times past in diverse and sundry manners has now spoken through His Son, Jesus Christ. Then in chapter two, don’t let these things slip. Then by time the epistle (or midrash) is about to be wrapped up, the writer reminds the reader that this is not two different programs. They did not transition from the Old Testament to the New Testament to start a brand new system of faith or a new religion, but that this same Jesus is the author of everything that their fathers ever rightly believed as deliberated back in chapter 11, and it is the same Jesus who is the finisher. Thus, Jesus is “the author and finisher of our faith,” the audience being Hebrews who have relatively recently come to believe in Jesus of Nazareth as the Savior and Jewish Messiah.Even if one wanted to take this concept out of the context and apply it the way Calvinists eisegete it, it still would not help them. Of course Jesus is the author and finisher of the faith. How could someone put their faith in Jesus if there was no Jesus to put their faith in? Jesus is a real historical person, and He is the manifestation in the flesh of the real, historical God. There can be no faith without the object of that faith first presenting itself for trust and reliance.

 

[Rockson]

Under Free-willian Philosophy, the Philosopher's hold to "I do this, so I get that, and without the 'this' there is no 'that'"; in other words, the philosophers believe that they earn God's love unto salvation - which nullifies God's grace!

So how's this work for you? For you choosing not to do this or that aren't you likewise doing something to earn your salvation? Oh I see it's OK for YOU to make decisions and not to have nullified God's grace but it's not OK for others?

 

[TomL]

So how's this work for you? For you choosing not to do this or that aren't you likewise doing something to earn your salvation? Oh I see it's OK for YOU to make decisions and not to have nullified God's grace but it's not OK for others?

I wonder does he deny faith/trust involves you doing something?

Ephesians 1:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

 

[civic]

So how's this work for you? For you choosing not to do this or that aren't you likewise doing something to earn your salvation? Oh I see it's OK for YOU to make decisions and not to have nullified God's grace but it's not OK for others?

It’s not working

 

[Kermos]

Excuse me but I didn't neglect anything I posted exactly what I wanted to post. The same way I intend on doing with this post.

Your "I didn't neglect anything I posted exactly what I wanted to post" is your admission that your heart destroys the context of the Good Message which God caused me to proclaim to you, so your heart transforms the Christian Good Message into the Free-willian Evil Message. You exhibit the free-willian attribute of adulterating Christ's Good Message that has been proclaimed to you, and this current Good Message further exposes your adulterations of the Word of God. You are not excused. This Good Message is just as much to @Obadiah and @TomL, boyh of whom agreed with Ahar's post, as this Good Message is to Ahar.

If one has to abide in love that leaves Calvinism out because there is no love in Calvinism.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/in-calvinism-where-is-the-love.1012/

You failed to mention Christian, there. We Christians are loved by Christ, and we Christians love our enemies. I love you, Ahar, so I proclaim the Truth (John 14:6) to you.

We Christians abide in God's love for the Word of God promises us “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another” (John 13:34).

Christ is God, and Christ lovingly says “even as I” which indicates the LOVE OF GOD on both sides of this phrase that occurs here “you love one another, even as I have loved you”; therefore, the “love” mentioned by the Word of God in “you love one another” is the LOVE OF GOD that God joins us Christians into this LOVE! Praise be to my Love in whom I and every Christian abides!

God exclusively causes Christians to love God, and God exclusively causes us Christians to love one another, so man's own initiative causes not this love.

Ahar, your intentional exclusion of this part:

AND John expands with his writing of “God is Love, and the one who abides in Love abides in God, and God abides in him” (1 John 4:16, see the phrase “one who abides in Love” is equivocated with “one who abides” “in God” which extends from God’s exclusivity with “God is Love”).
​

is absolute proof of your heart destroying the context of the Good Message.

We're talking about free will as opposed to total inability right? Being able to choose Jesus as your savior is what the Bible is all about.

As I wrote previously, largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ.

Your heart's treasure of "Being able to choose Jesus as your savior is what the Bible is all about" is false because my Savior God says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation).

No Holy Scripture states that God imparted man with free-will ability to choose God unto salvation, so the only way for you free-willian philosophers to acheive free-will is for you to add to the Word of God, and it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

Ahar, your intentional exclusion of this part in your reply

The gracious Benefactor of us Christians exclusively produces

1. divine choice of we beneficiaries unto salvation, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19)
   AND, Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to the Ephesians “Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him in love” (Ephesians 1:3-4)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 15:16 and John 15:19 state God exclusively chooses us believers by/of/through God.

is absolute proof of your heart destroying the context of the Good Message.

And yet Calvinism says that we do not have a free-will. That our will is bound by sin and Satan so that it does not have the ability to choose God. Calvinism believes we cannot perceive the Truth to be saved; God does it all for us. But if we could not perceive the Truth, then why did Jesus preach It to us?

You call Apostolic testimony "Calvinism" instead of Christian, and that is very strange.

The Bondage Of A Man's Will​

Free-willians, in a respect, are correct that "there's no difference between self will and free will", and that respect is that both self will and free will lead to hell.
Now, instead of listening to themselves lie with things like "Free will is all through the scriptures", they need to listen to Apostolic testimony as shown below.

Peter the Apostle wrote that prior to being saved, people have a self will that brings such people under damnation with the devil according to the Apostle Peter (2 Peter 2:9-10).

Paul the Apostle wrote that after being saved, people have a will that is bound under the loving control of God according to the Apostle Paul (Philippians 2:13).

Here's Paul from the Bible, again. Overall, Paul uses free will as illusory instead of concrete in Philemon 1:14 - and this is the only occurrence of "free will" that I am aware of in the New American Standard Bible New Testament.

Free-willians do not have a free will, as described by Paul.

Free-willians do have a self will, as described by Peter.

Free-willians gleefully separate themselves from God's will and the Christ of us Christians Who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19). We Christians in God's Spirit have a will bound enthusiastically in joy and love to God by God for God through God, as described by Paul.

The above mentioned Apostolic testimony verbatim:

• "the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority; daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10).
• "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).
• "but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will" (Philemon 1:14).

This Truth (John 14:6) comes from God by God's grace, for God's glory!

We can choose if presented with the Truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Why else would Jesus go around telling people to repent?

You claim the exact opposite of the Word of God "why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right" (Luke 12:57).

The Word of God is good unto Salvation for it is written "I am not ashamed of the Good Message, for it is the Power of God for salvation to everyone who believes" (Romans 1:16), so the Word of God, Lord Jesus Himself, is the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24). Jesus is the Good Message that is the cause of man's righteous belief (John 6:29) and man's repentance (see below), so this is why Jesus proclaimed "repent".

The word “repent” would have absolutely no meaning if we do not have a free-will to do so. Can you imagine Jesus preaching “Repent!” Then a man comes up afterward and corrects Jesus saying, “I’m sorry but my will is controlled by my total depravity so it is impossible for me to repent and, well, I’m predestined by your God for Hell so it is impossible for me to follow You anyway.” Other commands that God gave us like obey Me, seek Me, and follow Me would have no meaning if man was totally depraved lacking a free-will.

Repentance Defined​

THESE THREE QUESTIONS GET ANSWERED​

• What is repentance?
• Who controls repentance?
• How does a person repent?

LINGUISTIC DEFiNITION​

Let us dig into the word "repent" which means "think differently afterwards". After we believers are born from above by the Holy Spirit (John 3:3), and in like manner given the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16). The Greek word metanoeó is the English word "repent" in Matthew 4:17. Let us obtain the definition of "repent".

Repent: think differently afterwards

metanoéō (from 3326 /metá, "changed after being with" and 3539 /noiéō, "think") – properly, "think differently after," "after a change of mind"; to repent (literally, "think differently afterwards") (def from 3340. metanoeó HELPS Word-studies section).
​

The word "repent" does not mean "I change my mind" as asserted by too many people. Try reciting the words of Jesus, where He is commanding the people in Matthew 4:17, except, first, replace the word "repent" with "I change my mind", then, second, replace the word "repent" with "think differently afterwards". God does not change (Malachi 3:6), so this One True God Jesus commands repent.
Godly sorrow brings "thinking differently afterward" leading to salvation (2 Corinthians 7:10, so God's power generates this sorrow within the believers hence God calls it "Godly sorrow" thus illuminating and magnifying sin (Romans 5:20).

FIRST BIBLICAL CiTATION FOR REPENTANCE - A DEEP EXAMINATION​

Here is the Christian teaching of 2 Corinthians 7:8-10. The passage (from the NASB which explicitly states that the NASB translators add bracketed words for clarity - so I have no problem removing the bracketed words from the NASB - but this is verbatim from the NASB):

1. For though I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it - [for] I see that that letter caused you sorrow, though only for a while -
2. I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to [the point of] repentance; for you were made sorrowful according to [the will of] God, so that you might not suffer loss in anything through us.
3. For the sorrow that is according to [the will] [of] God produces a repentance without regret, [leading] to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.

Paul wrote a letter that exposed the Corinthian problem, see "I caused you sorrow by my letter" in verse 8.

As Paul writes further (in verse 9), the Apostle narrows the focus with "for you were made sorrowful according to God"; moreover, the Greek of ἐλυπήθητε γὰρ κατὰ Θεόν agrees with "for you were made sorrowful according to God". "ἐλυπήθητε" means "you grieved"/"you were made sorrowful", and "γὰρ" means "for", and "κατὰ" means "down"/"against"/"according to", and "Θεόν" means "God".

Paul does not leave it there, NO, rather Paul repeats himself in verse 10 to make it clear - in Jewish fashion of repeating a point for emphasis - Paul makes it clear in no uncertain terms "the sorrow that is according to God produces a repentance without regret, to salvation". That is Paul driving the Power of God exclusive role in man's repentance point home!

NOTICE THE KEYWORDS OF "ACCORDING TO GOD".

That sorrow, that repentance, is not of man's conjuring. See the keywords and absolute concept of "according to God"!

The scripture is devoid of "sorrow that is according to your free will" or "your free will to repent" or any indication about such a notion as man's free-will choice toward God.

The Apostle wrote "the sorrow that is according to God produces thinking differently afterward without regret" (2 Corinthians 7:10).

SCRIPTURAL CITATIONS ABOUT THE SOURCE OF REPENTANCE​

BIBLE CITATION: Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? (Romans 2:4).

Notice that rebuke of people that despise repentance being from God!

BIBLE CITATION: When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life." (Acts 11:18)

See that God grants repentance as testified by the disciples in Acts 11:18.

BIBLE CITATION: with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, (2 Timothy 2:25)

Paul testifies that God grants "thinking different afterwards" in 2 Timothy 2:25.

THE THREE QUESTIONS ANSWERED​

God grants repentance into people, as it is written; on the other hand, there is complete absence and silence in scripture for repentance as a work conjured up by man nor by man's "free will" nor "choice" nor "ability".

God grants repentance, and God acts for God's glory! Praise be to the Living God!

Calvinism falsely believe that we cannot choose God to be saved, God does it all, “He chooses us but we do not choose Him.”

The thing you call "Calvinism" is NOT what God has me here proclaiming. Christ has me here proclaiming Christ. Not only that, your heart nullifies the following Word of God.

The Christ of us Christians says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) as well as "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29) as well as *]"What I say to you I say to all" (Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this - relationship verse John 15:20), so all the wonderful blessings of the Word of God mentioned in this paragraph are to all Christians, every disciple of Christ, in all time. The Word of God is marvelous!

But if sinners cannot choose God, then why did God tell them to choose Him?

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve ; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

You applied your free-willian word of "But if sinners cannot choose God, then why did God tell them to choose Him" to Joshua 24:15, so let's test your spirit as the Apostle John commands "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world" (1 John 4:1):

• God is NOT speaking in Joshua 24:15, so your thoughts of "God tell them to choose Him" is false.
• There is no mention of God having ever imparted into man the ability to choose God in Joshua 24:15, so your heart's treasure is false.
• Joshua, the speaker in Joshua 24:15, never says that God is an available choice for man in "if it is evil in your eyes to serve YHWH, then choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the river, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell, but as for me and my house, we will serve YHWH" (Joshua 24:15); therefore, your conveyance of "sinners in their own initiative can choose God unto salvation" is false.
• Joshua declared of his house "we will serve YHWH", not "we choose YHWH", not "we choose to serve YHWH", but truly "we will serve YHWH" (Joshua 24:15), so your "But if sinners cannot choose God, then why did God tell them to choose Him" is free-willian deception that fails to glorify God.
• Joshua only dictated one multiple choice comprised two potential selections:
  1. "the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the river"
  2. "the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell"
  so your "God tell them to choose Him" classified YHWH God as a false god from either one side of the river or the other side.

Your word of "But if sinners cannot choose God, then why did God tell them to choose Him" is false prophecy about Joshua 24:15, so we have the answer about your spirit (1 John 4:1).

continued to post #1,975

 

[Kermos]

continued from post #1,974

1Ki 18:21 And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions ? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him . And the people answered him not a word.

You applied your free-willian word of "But if sinners cannot choose God, then why did God tell them to choose Him" to 1 Kings 18:21, so let's test your spirit as the Apostle John commands "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world" (1 John 4:1):

• God is NOT speaking in 1 Kings 18:21, so your thoughts of "God tell them to choose Him" is false.
• There is no mention of God having ever imparted into man the ability to choose God in 1 Kings 18:21, so your heart's treasure is false.
• Elijah, the speaker in 1 Kings 18:21, never says that God is an available choice for man in "Elijah came near to all the people and said, 'How long will you go limping between two different opinions? If YHWH is God, follow him; but if Baal, then follow him.' And the people did not answer him a word." (1 Kings 18:21); therefore, your conveyance of "sinners in their own initiative can choose God unto salvation" is false.
• Elijah commanded "If YHWH is God, follow him", not "If you choose YHWH, follow him", not "If YHWH is God, you choose to follow him", but truly "If YHWH is God, follow him" (1 Kings 18:21), so your "But if sinners cannot choose God, then why did God tell them to choose Him" is free-willian deception that fails to glorify God.
• Elijah asked "How long will you go limping between two different opinions" which indicates that the people failed the command "you shall love the Lord your God with all your mind, and with all your soul, and all your strength" (Deuteronomy 6:5), so your "God tell them to choose Him" is false.

Your word of "But if sinners cannot choose God, then why did God tell them to choose Him" is false prophecy about 1 Kings 18:21, so we have the answer about your spirit (1 John 4:1).

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life , that both thou and thy seed may live:

You applied your free-willian word of "But if sinners cannot choose God, then why did God tell them to choose Him" to Deuteronomy 30:19, so let's test your spirit as the Apostle John commands "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world" (1 John 4:1):

• God is NOT speaking in Deuteronomy 30:19, so your thoughts of "God tell them to choose Him" is false.
• There is no mention of God having ever imparted into man the ability to choose God in Deuteronomy 30:19, so your heart's treasure is false.
• Moses, the speaker in Deuteronomy 30:19, never says that God is an available choice for man in "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life" (Deuteronomy 30:19); therefore, your conveyance of "sinners in their own initiative can choose God unto salvation" is false.
• Moses commanded "choose life", not "choose YHWH", but truly "If YHWH is God, follow him" (Deuteronomy 30:19), so your "But if sinners cannot choose God, then why did God tell them to choose Him" is free-willian deception that fails to glorify God.
• Moses proclaimed "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today" which indicates a hostile witness against the people for the people failed the command "you shall love the Lord your God with all your mind, and with all your soul, and all your strength" (Deuteronomy 6:5), so your "God tell them to choose Him" is false.

Your word of "But if sinners cannot choose God, then why did God tell them to choose Him" is false prophecy about Deuteronomy 30:19, so we have the answer about your spirit (1 John 4:1).

The above verses prove conclusively that a depraved man can choose God. To deny man’s free-will is to deny the Bible. Israel chose God:

You applied your free-willian philosophy of "The above verses prove conclusively that a depraved man can choose God" to Deuteronomy 30:19, so your heart produces "I call heaven and earth to witness FOR you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose GOD" (the word of Ahar 30:19, and the word of @Obadiah 30:19 (Like Ahar post), and the Word of @TomL 30:19 (Like Ahar post)) which is a tradition of man leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9) for Moses truly spoke "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life" (Deuteronomy 30:19); therefore, your "The above verses prove conclusively that a depraved man can choose God" is proven to be conclusively false.

In Truth (John 14:6), the free-willian spirit of you three regarding the verses you mentioned, Joshua 24:15, 1 Kings 18:21, and Deuteronomy 30:19, produces false prophecy about God (1 John 4:1).

Jos 24:22 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the LORD, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses.

You say "Israel chose God" regarding Joshua 24:22, but your free-willian eyes fail to see that the Word of God never imparted to man the ability to choose God, so the people's choice, just like your "I chose Jesus", is false, and the following examination shows your and the people's error.

Beholding The Larger Context Surrounding Joshua 24:15-22​

No scripture states that the people in attendance actually chose the gods of their fathers or that they chose the gods of the Amorites, not in Joshua 24:15, not elsewhere. I am not necessarily saying that they could not choose the gods of their fathers or the gods of the Amorites.

The people said "We also will serve YHWH, for He is our God" (Joshua 24:18).

Joshua declared to the people in response "You will not be able to serve YHWH, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression or your sins" (Joshua 24:19).

JOSHUA JUST TOLD THEM THAT THEY WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO SERVE GOD.

The people then said to Joshua, "No, but we will serve YHWH" (Joshua 24:21).

Joshua responded to the people with "You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen for yourselves YHWH, to serve Him" (Joshua 24:22)

JOSHUA JUST TOLD THEM THAT THEY ARE "WITNESSES AGAINST YOURSELVES", SO THEY TESTIFIED TO THE CONDEMNATION OF THEMSELVES.

When a person is a "witness for a defendant", then such a one is a proponent for the defendant; in other words, a witness for the defendant. This scenario outlines testimony for justification of the defendant.

When a person is a "witness against a defendant", then such a one is an opponent against the defendant; in other words, a witness against the defendant. This scenario outlines testimony for condemnation of the defendant.

The Truth (John 14:6) is there is no free will in the passage.

Regarding when Joshua said "You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen for yourselves YHWH, to serve Him" (Joshua 24:22):

From the time that Joshua commanded "Now therefore, put away the foreign gods which are in your midst" (Joshua 24:23) until after Joshua's death (Joshua 24:29) and after Othneil (Judges 3:9) and after Ehud (Judges 3:15) and after Shamgar (Judges 3:31) and after Deborah and Barak (Judges 4-5) and after Gideon (Judges 6-8) and after Tola (Judges 10:1) and after Jair (Judges 10:3), it was not until after all that time that...

After all that time it is written "they put away the foreign gods from among them" (Judges 10:16), and there is no record of the Israelites putting away the foreign Gods prior to that time.

Judges 10:16 contains the first occurrence of "foreign gods" after Joshua 24:23.

So there is no record of the people in attendance fulfilling Joshua's command of "Now therefore, put away the foreign gods which are in your midst" (Joshua 24:23), and non-performance of the command shows fruit contrary of their choice mentioned by Joshua.

Beholding The Corollary Between Joshua's Words And Jesus' Words - Expressing The Exclusive Power Of God For God And Man Communing​

Joshua declared "You will not be able to serve YHWH" (Joshua 24:19, and recall Joshua saying the people chose God in a pejorative manner in Joshua 24:22).
Lord Yeshua declares "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16).

Lord YHWH is the Holy God (Joshua 24:19), and no man can enter the presence of God by the man's own autonomous power (Matthew 19:25-26).

BEHOLD THE DISTINCT COROLLARY BETWEEN JOSHUA'S WORDS AND YESHUA'S WORDS - THAT MAN IS IMPOTENT AT CHOOSING GOD.

Joshua declared "He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression or your sins" (Joshua 24:19).

Lord Yeshua declares "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

The Lord is a jealous God (Joshua 24:19), so God does not share the glory of choosing man unto salvation (Isaiah 42:8).

BEHOLD ANOTHER DISTINCT COROLLARY BETWEEN JOSHUA'S WORDS AND YESHUA'S WORDS - THAT GOD EXCLUSIVELY CONTROLS FORGIVENESS OF SINS UNTO SALVATION.

(1) The scripture in Joshua 24 never indicates that the people chose God with God's blessing.

(2) Joshua told the people that they are "witnesses against yourselves" (Joshua 24:22), so the people testified to the condemnation of themselves.

(3) From the time that Joshua commanded to the people in attendance "Now therefore, put away the foreign gods which are in your midst" (Joshua 24:23) at least 245 years * transpired until another generation of people "put away the foreign gods from among them" (Judges 10:16), and there is no record of the Israelites putting away the foreign gods prior to that time, and non-performance of the command (Joshua 24:23) shows that the people in attendance at the time Joshua issued the command (Joshua 24:22) failed "You shall love YHWH your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength" (Deuteronomy 6:5).

*[/url] 40 years (Judges 3:11) + 80 years (Judges 3:30) + 40 years (Judges 5:31) + 40 years (Judges 8:28) + 23 years (Judges 10:2) + 22 years (Judges 10:3) = 245 years

The Truth (John 14:6) is no scripture states that man was imparted free will by God, in particular, the ability to choose God unto man being saved from the wrath of God, for God reserses this glorious work unto God's majestic glory alone (John 15:16, John 15:19, includes salvation).

Returning To Your Opening Thoughts​

This Good Message proves the errancy of your "I didn't neglect anything I posted exactly what I wanted to post", that is, your admission that your heart destroys the context of the Good Message which God causes me to proclaim to you. As shown above, you exhibit the free-willian attribute of adulterating Christ's Good Message that has been proclaimed to you, and this current Good Message further exposes your adulterations of the Word of God.

This Good Message shows in detail the results of your heart's destructive treasure of "Being able to choose Jesus as your savior is what the Bible is all about" because we Christian's Savior and God wonderfully and lovingly says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation).

Your heart makes false statements about God. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE ADONAI YHWH!!!

 

[TomL]

continued from post #1,036



You applied your free-willian word of "But if sinners cannot choose God, then why did God tell them to choose Him" to 1 Kings 18:21, so let's test your spirit as the Apostle John commands "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world" (1 John 4:1):

• God is NOT speaking in 1 Kings 18:21, so your thoughts of "God tell them to choose Him" is false.
• There is no mention of God having ever imparted into man the ability to choose God in 1 Kings 18:21, so your heart's treasure is false.
• Elijah, the speaker in 1 Kings 18:21, never says that God is an available choice for man in "Elijah came near to all the people and said, 'How long will you go limping between two different opinions? If YHWH is God, follow him; but if Baal, then follow him.' And the people did not answer him a word." (1 Kings 18:21); therefore, your conveyance of "sinners in their own initiative can choose God unto salvation" is false.
• Elijah commanded "If YHWH is God, follow him", not "If you choose YHWH, follow him", not "If YHWH is God, you choose to follow him", but truly "If YHWH is God, follow him" (1 Kings 18:21), so your "But if sinners cannot choose God, then why did God tell them to choose Him" is free-willian deception that fails to glorify God.
• Elijah asked "How long will you go limping between two different opinions" which indicates that the people failed the command "you shall love the Lord your God with all your mind, and with all your soul, and all your strength" (Deuteronomy 6:5), so your "God tell them to choose Him" is false.

Your word of "But if sinners cannot choose God, then why did God tell them to choose Him" is false prophecy about 1 Kings 18:21, so we have the answer about your spirit (1 John 4:1).



You applied your free-willian word of "But if sinners cannot choose God, then why did God tell them to choose Him" to Deuteronomy 30:19, so let's test your spirit as the Apostle John commands "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world" (1 John 4:1):

• God is NOT speaking in Deuteronomy 30:19, so your thoughts of "God tell them to choose Him" is false.
• There is no mention of God having ever imparted into man the ability to choose God in Deuteronomy 30:19, so your heart's treasure is false.
• Moses, the speaker in Deuteronomy 30:19, never says that God is an available choice for man in "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life" (Deuteronomy 30:19); therefore, your conveyance of "sinners in their own initiative can choose God unto salvation" is false.
• Moses commanded "choose life", not "choose YHWH", but truly "If YHWH is God, follow him" (Deuteronomy 30:19), so your "But if sinners cannot choose God, then why did God tell them to choose Him" is free-willian deception that fails to glorify God.
• Moses proclaimed "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today" which indicates a hostile witness against the people for the people failed the command "you shall love the Lord your God with all your mind, and with all your soul, and all your strength" (Deuteronomy 6:5), so your "God tell them to choose Him" is false.

Your word of "But if sinners cannot choose God, then why did God tell them to choose Him" is false prophecy about Deuteronomy 30:19, so we have the answer about your spirit (1 John 4:1).



You applied your free-willian philosophy of "The above verses prove conclusively that a depraved man can choose God" to Deuteronomy 30:19, so your heart produces "I call heaven and earth to witness FOR you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose GOD" (the word of Ahar 30:19, and the word of @Obadiah 30:19 (Like Ahar post), and the Word of @TomL 30:19 (Like Ahar post)) which is a tradition of man leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9) for Moses truly spoke "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life" (Deuteronomy 30:19); therefore, your "The above verses prove conclusively that a depraved man can choose God" is proven to be conclusively false.

In Truth (John 14:6), the free-willian spirit of you three regarding the verses you mentioned, Joshua 24:15, 1 Kings 18:21, and Deuteronomy 30:19, produces false prophecy about God (1 John 4:1).



You say "Israel chose God" regarding Joshua 24:22, but your free-willian eyes fail to see that the Word of God never imparted to man the ability to choose God, so the people's choice, just like your "I chose Jesus", is false, and the following examination shows your and the people's error.

Beholding The Larger Context Surrounding Joshua 24:15-22​

No scripture states that the people in attendance actually chose the gods of their fathers or that they chose the gods of the Amorites, not in Joshua 24:15, not elsewhere. I am not necessarily saying that they could not choose the gods of their fathers or the gods of the Amorites.

The people said "We also will serve YHWH, for He is our God" (Joshua 24:18).

Joshua declared to the people in response "You will not be able to serve YHWH, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression or your sins" (Joshua 24:19).

JOSHUA JUST TOLD THEM THAT THEY WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO SERVE GOD.

The people then said to Joshua, "No, but we will serve YHWH" (Joshua 24:21).

Joshua responded to the people with "You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen for yourselves YHWH, to serve Him" (Joshua 24:22)

JOSHUA JUST TOLD THEM THAT THEY ARE "WITNESSES AGAINST YOURSELVES", SO THEY TESTIFIED TO THE CONDEMNATION OF THEMSELVES.

When a person is a "witness for a defendant", then such a one is a proponent for the defendant; in other words, a witness for the defendant. This scenario outlines testimony for justification of the defendant.

When a person is a "witness against a defendant", then such a one is an opponent against the defendant; in other words, a witness against the defendant. This scenario outlines testimony for condemnation of the defendant.

The Truth (John 14:6) is there is no free will in the passage.

Regarding when Joshua said "You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen for yourselves YHWH, to serve Him" (Joshua 24:22):

From the time that Joshua commanded "Now therefore, put away the foreign gods which are in your midst" (Joshua 24:23) until after Joshua's death (Joshua 24:29) and after Othneil (Judges 3:9) and after Ehud (Judges 3:15) and after Shamgar (Judges 3:31) and after Deborah and Barak (Judges 4-5) and after Gideon (Judges 6-8) and after Tola (Judges 10:1) and after Jair (Judges 10:3), it was not until after all that time that...

After all that time it is written "they put away the foreign gods from among them" (Judges 10:16), and there is no record of the Israelites putting away the foreign Gods prior to that time.

Judges 10:16 contains the first occurrence of "foreign gods" after Joshua 24:23.

So there is no record of the people in attendance fulfilling Joshua's command of "Now therefore, put away the foreign gods which are in your midst" (Joshua 24:23), and non-performance of the command shows fruit contrary of their choice mentioned by Joshua.

Beholding The Corollary Between Joshua's Words And Jesus' Words - Expressing The Exclusive Power Of God For God And Man Communing​

Joshua declared "You will not be able to serve YHWH" (Joshua 24:19, and recall Joshua saying the people chose God in a pejorative manner in Joshua 24:22).
Lord Yeshua declares "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16).

Lord YHWH is the Holy God (Joshua 24:19), and no man can enter the presence of God by the man's own autonomous power (Matthew 19:25-26).

BEHOLD THE DISTINCT COROLLARY BETWEEN JOSHUA'S WORDS AND YESHUA'S WORDS - THAT MAN IS IMPOTENT AT CHOOSING GOD.

Joshua declared "He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression or your sins" (Joshua 24:19).

Lord Yeshua declares "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

The Lord is a jealous God (Joshua 24:19), so God does not share the glory of choosing man unto salvation (Isaiah 42:8).

BEHOLD ANOTHER DISTINCT COROLLARY BETWEEN JOSHUA'S WORDS AND YESHUA'S WORDS - THAT GOD EXCLUSIVELY CONTROLS FORGIVENESS OF SINS UNTO SALVATION.

(1) The scripture in Joshua 24 never indicates that the people chose God with God's blessing.

(2) Joshua told the people that they are "witnesses against yourselves" (Joshua 24:22), so the people testified to the condemnation of themselves.

(3) From the time that Joshua commanded to the people in attendance "Now therefore, put away the foreign gods which are in your midst" (Joshua 24:23) at least 245 years * transpired until another generation of people "put away the foreign gods from among them" (Judges 10:16), and there is no record of the Israelites putting away the foreign gods prior to that time, and non-performance of the command (Joshua 24:23) shows that the people in attendance at the time Joshua issued the command (Joshua 24:22) failed "You shall love YHWH your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength" (Deuteronomy 6:5).

*[/url] 40 years (Judges 3:11) + 80 years (Judges 3:30) + 40 years (Judges 5:31) + 40 years (Judges 8:28) + 23 years (Judges 10:2) + 22 years (Judges 10:3) = 245 years

The Truth (John 14:6) is no scripture states that man was imparted free will by God, in particular, the ability to choose God unto man being saved from the wrath of God, for God reserses this glorious work unto God's majestic glory alone (John 15:16, John 15:19, includes salvation).

Returning To Your Opening Thoughts​

This Good Message proves the errancy of your "I didn't neglect anything I posted exactly what I wanted to post", that is, your admission that your heart destroys the context of the Good Message which God causes me to proclaim to you. As shown above, you exhibit the free-willian attribute of adulterating Christ's Good Message that has been proclaimed to you, and this current Good Message further exposes your adulterations of the Word of God.
This Good Message shows in detail the results of your heart's destructive treasure of "Being able to choose Jesus as your savior is what the Bible is all about" because we Christian's Savior and God wonderfully and lovingly says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” ([URL=’http://biblehub.com/john/15-16.htm’]John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation).

Your heart makes false statements about God. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE ADONAI YHWH!!!

Still ignoring the facts

Christ's disciples were given to him by the Father

John 17:6 (ESV) — 6 “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.

Christ choose his apostles

John 6:70 (ESV) — 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”

Luke 6:13 (ESV) — 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles:

Acts 1:1–2 (ESV) — 1 In the first book, O Theophilus, I have dealt with all that Jesus began to do and teach, 2 until the day when he was taken up, after he had given commands through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen.

 

[Kermos]

Still ignoring the facts

Christ's disciples were given to him by the Father

John 17:6 (ESV) — 6 “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.

Christ choose his apostles

John 6:70 (ESV) — 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”

Luke 6:13 (ESV) — 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles:

Acts 1:1–2 (ESV) — 1 In the first book, O Theophilus, I have dealt with all that Jesus began to do and teach, 2 until the day when he was taken up, after he had given commands through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen.

You didn't have sufficient time to read the the two posts to you! 9 minutes was the amount of time between post #1,975 and your errant post above.

The post #1,975, which God caused me to post, systematically proves your false free-willian philosophy, but all you can do is write your fantasy of "Still ignoring the facts" without any Holy Scripture stating that God imparted man with the freewill ability to choose God unto salvation!

Your “Christ choose his apostles” is true, yet you reviled these angelic majesties by effectively labeling the Apostles as deceivers with your “Nothing mentioned about Joseph and Matthias being in the audience on that ocassion” as recorded in post #645 of which your thoughts there daringly contradict angelic majesties testimony of the Apostle Peter “men who have accompanied us all the time” (Acts 1:21) while Peter was with all the Apostles.

Joseph and Matthias were in the room when Lord Jesus says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation).

So, you call the Apostles all liars because all the remaining Apostles were with the Apostle Peter when Peter said:

Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us – beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us – one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.’ So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias.
(Acts 1:21-23)
​

In the upper room occupied by Jesus’ disciples who put forward Matthias and Joseph were Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James (Acts 1:13), and these disciples recognized Matthias and Joseph as disciples that were with them from the beginning, and not a single disciple contradicted Peter’s prounouncement of “men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us – beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us”.

Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more people beyond the Apostles for a minimum total of 13 disciples who are specifically identified at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17; therefore, Lord Jesus Christ’s “you” in John 15:16 and John 15:19 extends well beyond the Apostles, in Truth (John 14:6)!

Christ uses “you” to indicate all Christians in all time are chosen by God alone unto salvation as well as to bring the message of Christ’s salvation to the world when King Jesus majestically decrees “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation). Your evasion of the King’s decree is a terror.

None of John 17:6, John 6:70, Luke 6:13, nor Acts 1:1–2 state that the 12 apostles are the ONLY persons chosen by Lord Jesus.

Your heart makes false statements about God. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE JESUS!!!

 

[Rockson]

The post #1,975, which God caused me to post, systematically proves .....

Sorry but you have an absolutely horrible way in which you seek to make your case on the internet. Your way and manner is you're right and there's no way you can be wrong....for after all God caused you to post what you do. You insinuate to readers I don't care how convincing another's argument might be THEY'RE WRONG....I'm right for after all I've had this real spiritual direction. Readers beware! Hold him accountable to the word of God and not his claim of infallibility.

 

[Rockson]

"Still ignoring the facts" without any Holy Scripture stating that God imparted man with the freewill ability to choose God unto salvation!

As for me I think ones who put out this strange bizarre demand and insist one provide such will have to give serious account before the Lord. I think the Lord will say it's self-evident and obvious that MAN had and has the free will ability to choose God. What took place in the primary lesson with Adam and Eve screams at one that such is the case in no uncertain terms. I don't believe there will be any excuse that what you're asking was necessary.

 

[TomL]

You didn't have sufficient time to read the the two posts to you! 9 minutes was the amount of time between post #1,975 and your errant post above.

The post #1,975, which God caused me to post, systematically proves your false free-willian philosophy, but all you can do is write your fantasy of "Still ignoring the facts" without any Holy Scripture stating that God imparted man with the freewill ability to choose God unto salvation!

Your “Christ choose his apostles” is true, yet you reviled these angelic majesties by effectively labeling the Apostles as deceivers with your “Nothing mentioned about Joseph and Matthias being in the audience on that ocassion” as recorded in post #645 of which your thoughts there daringly contradict angelic majesties testimony of the Apostle Peter “men who have accompanied us all the time” (Acts 1:21) while Peter was with all the Apostles.

Joseph and Matthias were in the room when Lord Jesus says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation).

So, you call the Apostles all liars because all the remaining Apostles were with the Apostle Peter when Peter said:

​

Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us – beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us – one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.’ So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias.​

(Acts 1:21-23)​

​

In the upper room occupied by Jesus’ disciples who put forward Matthias and Joseph were Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James (Acts 1:13), and these disciples recognized Matthias and Joseph as disciples that were with them from the beginning, and not a single disciple contradicted Peter’s prounouncement of “men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us – beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us”.

Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more people beyond the Apostles for a minimum total of 13 disciples who are specifically identified at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17; therefore, Lord Jesus Christ’s “you” in John 15:16 and John 15:19 extends well beyond the Apostles, in Truth (John 14:6)!

Christ uses “you” to indicate all Christians in all time are chosen by God alone unto salvation as well as to bring the message of Christ’s salvation to the world when King Jesus majestically decrees “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation). Your evasion of the King’s decree is a terror.

None of John 17:6, John 6:70, Luke 6:13, nor Acts 1:1–2 state that the 12 apostles are the ONLY persons chosen by Lord Jesus.

Your heart makes false statements about God. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE JESUS!!!

You failed to rebut the facts

Still ignoring the facts

Christ's disciples were given to him by the Father

John 17:6 (ESV) — 6 “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.

Christ choose his apostles

John 6:70 (ESV) — 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”

Luke 6:13 (ESV) — 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles:

Acts 1:1–2 (ESV) — 1 In the first book, O Theophilus, I have dealt with all that Jesus began to do and teach, 2 until the day when he was taken up, after he had given commands through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen.

You have been posting the same thing repeatedly. It takes no time to consider as it the same thing you have stated over and over

And there is still no evidence Matthias was there on the occasion spoken of

You are assuming that

while ignoring the fact the Disciples were given to Christ by the father and Christ chose the apostles as seen in multiple verses

We do not read Christ chose any other. You assume that to support your theology and make it seem man has no choice to follow Christ