Obadiah
Well-known member
You're starting to see the light, I knew there was hope for you. Keep up the good work!
An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
civic
Well-known member
if there was hope for me as a calvinist there is hope for anyone else who is a calvinist.You're starting to see the light, I knew there was hope for you. Keep up the good work!
You just deleted the Word of God from the post to which you replied, then you prattle on about your ability in your own initiative to choose Jesus unto salvation.
The Son of Man pronounces "I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me" (John 5:30), so His will was under the control of God's will.
The Son of God also pronounces "why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right" (Luke 12:57), so man is incapable of choosing the Righteous One, Lord Jesus Christ, unto salvation.
Your heart's treasure is that you believe that you chose the Righteous One, Lord Jesus Christ, unto salvation - your self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) reviles the very Word of God, TomL!
Your conveyance that man points man's belief at Jesus about Romans 4:4-5 and Romans 4:16 is false prophecy because the Word of God declares that we Christian's faith/belief in Lord Jesus is an act of God with “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).
And, Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for Paul wrote to the Ephesians “by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His work” (Ephesians 2:8-10).
And, Peter is in accord with Jesus’ words for Peter declared “God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith” (Acts 15:8-9).
So, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 6:29 state for us believers to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent is exclusively by/of/through God!
Paul is talking about a specific example of Jacob and Esau (Romans 9:10-13) then applying the example to mankind in general (Romans 9:14-16) then about another specific example of Pharaoh (Romans 9:17) then applying the example to mankind in general (Romans 9:18).
TomL, you limited your quotation such that your heart distorted the Apostle's context!
Your writing is error because Romans 9:16 does not say "it does not depend on EXCLUSIVELY JACOB OR ESAU who wills or EXCLUSIVELY JACOB OR ESAU who runs, but on God who has mercy" (the false word of TomL 9:16A).
In Romans 9:14, Paul completed the transition about the example of the people Jacob and Esau into an expanded discourse about mankind in general. Paul is systematically giving examples about mankind up to and including "it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy" (the Apostle Paul, Romans 9:16).
Your heart is "ripping a verse from its context and misapplying it".
Paul specifically mentioned "will" in his Apostolic testimony of "it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy" (Romans 9:16), so your heart's "in context it has absolutely nothing to do with free will" is visibly false.
Regarding Romans chapter 9 and John chapter 15 and Joshua chapter 24 and even more of the Bible, you are shown to promote false prophecy (1 John 4:1).
Paul immediately continued Romans 9:16 with more about God the Potter and man the clay. Here is a link to the NASB Romans chapter 9 in full on BibleHub.com.
Your heart's thoughts convey "it does depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, so God has mercy" (the word of TomL) because you claim in your own initiative (will) to choose Jesus thus your heart holds that you obtain deserved forgiveness; therefore, your heart nullifies undeserved forgiveness (mercy).
You bear false witness against the Apostle Paul.
I appreciate you quoting Exodus 20:3–5 and Romans 1:18–32 there, TomL.
God causes me to clarify that free-will is idolatry of man by man, hence Lord Jesus had me mention Exodus 20:3–5 and Romans 1:18–32.
Did you read @The Rogue Tomato's post #1,968? The Good Message about the Author and Perfecter of the Faith should send shivers up and down your spine.
Your heart makes false statements about God. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE JESUS, WHO ALONE SAVES US WRETCHES!!!
No just your false claims
Sorry that that says nothing at all about being able to believe unto salvation
You read that into the verse
there are many texts which show your claim false
John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?
Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief
Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed
Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Jesus clearly states he hides truth for some as otherwise they would repent and be forgiven
Mark 4:10–12 (ESV) — 10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that “ ‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’ ”
unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe
Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
Mat 11:21-24 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. 23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.
John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
How much exegesis is needed to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony
John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
men will be able to believe based on the apostle's testimony
John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief
2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.
As is the preaching of it.
Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
John 7:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 And many of the people believed on him, and said, When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath done?
Miracles have power to bring about faith
Misusing scripture once again
2 Peter 2:9–10 (ESV) — 9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority. Bold and willful, they do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones,
It says nothing at all about the ability to believe
You could use a course in reading comprehension
again ignoring context, the whole council of God (see list of scriptures contrary to your view above) and Calvinist commentators who show this refers to what God requires of us
You continually read your theology into scripture ignoring context and the whole council of God
And salvation is the gift of God,
Romans 6:23 (ESV) — 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
it is not of works, but the idea that Paul is saying faith is not the result of works is absurd
but if you are going to it refers to faith that is what you have Paul saying.
What did God know of the gentiles?
They had faith
What makes you imagine that verse supports you in any manner
LOL
Totally gratuitous
Nothing you have stated shows any such thing.
Nope
Paul is speaking of the selection of a peoples who would carry his message into the world and bear the messiah
The selection of Israel over Edom
Genesis 25:23 (ESV) — 23 And the LORD said to her, “Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you shall be divided; the one shall be stronger than the other, the older shall serve the younger.”
Esau never served Jacob
Edom however did serve Israel at a time
Pharoah was simply an example of those who oppose God
You do not have a clue and have no idea how to exegete scripture and simply read your views into it regardless of context and the whole council of God
Again the context concerns the service
(God selects who he will for service) and the grounds which he will show mercy
Many Jews believed they were owed mercy. They were depending on their works, their ancestry but Paul shows
Romans 9:30–32 (ESV) — 30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,
There was no unconditional election to righteousness here. God granted righteousness to those with faith
Verses 30-32 serve as a summary statement. If you read Romans 9 contrary to it, you err
Your heart's nervous (poor punctuation and double "that") "Sorry that that says nothing at all about being able to believe unto salvation" nullifies the Word of God from the post to which you replied for the Son of God pronounces "why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right" (Luke 12:57), so man's own initiative is incapable of judging to choose the Righteous One, Lord Jesus Christ, unto salvation.
Your heart's treasure is that you believe that you judge rightly the Righteous Lord Jesus Christ unto salvation - the very Righteous One Who declares you can not even on your own initiative judge what is right, so your self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) reviles the very Word of God, TomL!
Since your opening statement is false, then you are anti-truth!
Your heart makes false statements about God. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE RIGHTEOUS ONE'S HOLY NAME!!!
Rockson
Well-known member
So this is how you put together in your thinking the idea that everything is ordained, that the will of God is always being done? Sorry but this is not a verification in any sense of the word that God's will is being done by ordaining.
When Jesus said he could do nothing of his own initiative he was talking about he couldn't do so and still be submissive to what God wanted. When he said he did not seek his own will it did not mean in no way was he incapable of doing so from the standpoint of ability. The way you put this together in your mind is so very much misplaced.
Sorry that still says nothing at all about be unable to believe, and you failed to address a single verse.
Why?
Why do you ignore the whole council of God and read verses in isolation from it?
You provide no answer
Again you provide no answer
Why does God hide truth from men who have no ability to believe it?
your theology is not rational
We are clearly told these men who we have to assume were unregenerate unless you want to affirm they lost their salvation believed
Either way your theology is contradicted
Do you not believe the words of Jesus?
According to him those of Tyre and Sidon could have believed and repented were the miracles done in them that were done in Chorazin and Bethsaida.
Clearly, scripture presupposes an ability to believe
and regarding the verse you quoted you simply ignored the context and assumed your interpretation
Luke 12:54–59 (ESV) — 54 He also said to the crowds, “When you see a cloud rising in the west, you say at once, ‘A shower is coming.’ And so it happens. 55 And when you see the south wind blowing, you say, ‘There will be scorching heat,’ and it happens. 56 You hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of earth and sky, but why do you not know how to interpret the present time? 57 “And why do you not judge for yourselves what is right? 58 As you go with your accuser before the magistrate, make an effort to settle with him on the way, lest he drag you to the judge, and the judge hand you over to the officer, and the officer put you in prison. 59 I tell you, you will never get out until you have paid the very last penny.”
There is nothing about an inability to believe in God or Christ in it
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He reads his views into scripture, instead of reading them out of scripture
Rockson
Well-known member
And as far as I'm concerned there's no words to describe how one can dream up such a misrepresentation of scripture. So very bizarre.
A desire to support an assumed view.
Rockson
Well-known member
On my, oh my, oh my! Sorry but what you said is absolute opposite of what Jesus meant. It doesn't mean they weren't capable it meant clearly they were capable that's the very thing he was trying to get across ! Let's look at the 3 verses before 57,
“Whenever you see a cloud rising out of the west, immediately you say, ‘A shower is coming’; and so it is. 55And when you see the south wind blow, you say, ‘There will be hot weather’; and there is. 56Hypocrites! You can discern the face of the sky and of the earth, but how is it you do not discern this time?
In our modern lingo he was saying something similar to now get with the program! If you're able to predict the weather based on certain signs then you should be able to do the same thing when looking at the signs you've been shown to show that I am who I claim to be.
No offence Kermos but your heart treasure should be to look at not just one small phrase of a verse but to look at the whole passage. Hoping and trusting you will do so in the future.
These things happen when one ignores context and tries to defend a view rather than understand the passage
Since your heart conveys "I can choose to believe in the Righteous Jesus Christ by my own initiative", then your heart conveys you are greater than Lord Jesus Christ Who pronounces "I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me" (John 5:30), so Christ's will was under the control of God's will in order to do righteousness, but your will is self-admittedly not under the righteous loving control of God's will. TomL, your own initiative does not judge rightly in order to cause yourself to choose to believe in Lord Jesus Christ because the same Lord Jesus Christ also pronounces "why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right" (Luke 12:57), so man is incapable of choosing the Righteous One, Lord Jesus Christ, unto salvation.
I appreciate you quoting Luke 12:54-59! The courts of unrighteous man are nothing compared to the Court of the Just and Holy God!
We Christians believe in Him whom He has sent, with the Him being Lord Jesus Christ and the He being the Holy God, because exclusively the will of God causes us to believe in Him whom He has sent as is visible by the Word of God "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father except because of Me" (John 14:6) as well as “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (John 3:21) as well as "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven" (Matthew 7:21) as well as ""I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5).
But you, TomL, and all free-willian philosophers, believe differently than the Word of God because you believe that your self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) causes you to believe in Jesus Christ.
Your heart makes false statements about God. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE BE THE WORD OF GOD!!!
Sorry you continue to read your view into texts. Affirming things they do not state. Nowhere does any text you quote state man is incapable of believing
You completely misread the text and make statements with no basis in truth and are handily refuted
John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?
Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief
Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed
Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Jesus clearly states he hides truth for some as otherwise they would repent and be forgiven
Mark 4:10–12 (ESV) — 10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that “ ‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’ ”
unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe
Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
Mat 11:21-24 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. 23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
The adversary steals the word away so men will not believe
Luke 8:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
What need is there to steal away a word which cannot be believed? Satan is redundant in your view
John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.
John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
How much exegesis is needed to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony
John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
men will be able to believe based on the apostle's testimony
John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief
2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.
As is the preaching of it.
Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
John 7:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 And many of the people believed on him, and said, When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath done?
Miracles have power to bring about faith
John 5:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires wrote the Apostle Paul right dab smack in the middle of what you call "the context concerns the service". Paul wrote about God's act upon man in totality including salvation, but your heart adulterates Apostolic testimony by your free-willian way of "(God selects who he will for service) and the grounds which he will show mercy" which you have man acting upon God then you allow God to act upon man; therefore, your heart's treasure is the opposite of the Apostle Paul's writing of God acting upon man, and your heart treasure is in deficit to that which the Apostle Paul wrote. By definition, you are adding to and subtracting from Holy Scripture!
You and every free-willian are doing exactly the same thing as what you just described since you and all them free-willians have "believed they were owed mercy. They were depending on their works" of choosing Righteous Jesus of which their choosing God then requires deserved forgiveness of sin upon the free-willian, but that is no longer undeserved forgiveness (mercy) but the free-willian deserved forgiveness is a tradition of man leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).
You deleted Holy Scripture context by terminating prematurely.
The Apostle Paul wrote another point, not an exclusionary summary, but a conclusion building on prior intact individual concepts:
What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by belief; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousnes did not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by belief, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, as it is written,
“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;
and he who believes in him will not be put to shame.”
(Romans 9:30-33)
All of the belief and believes mentioned by Paul is an act of God inside of man because this is the same Apostle Paul who wrote:
by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His work
(Ephesians 2:8-10)
Earlier in chapter 9, the Apostle Paul is talking about a specific example of Jacob and Esau (Romans 9:10-13) then applying the example to mankind in general (Romans 9:14-16) then about another specific example of Pharaoh (Romans 9:17) then applying the example to mankind in general (Romans 9:18). These profound points laid out by the apostle remain intact even with the existence of Romans 9:30-33.
TomL, you limited your quotation such that your heart distorted the Apostle's context!
Your writing is error because Romans 9:16 does not say "it does not depend on EXCLUSIVELY JACOB OR ESAU who wills or EXCLUSIVELY JACOB OR ESAU who runs, but on God who has mercy" (the false word of TomL 9:16A).
In Romans 9:14, Paul completed the transition about the example of the people Jacob and Esau into an expanded discourse about mankind in general. Paul is systematically giving examples about mankind up to and including "it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy" (the Apostle Paul, Romans 9:16).
Your heart is "ripping a verse from its context and misapplying it".
Paul specifically mentioned "will" in his Apostolic testimony of "it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy" (Romans 9:16), so your heart's "in context it has absolutely nothing to do with free will" is visibly false.
Regarding Romans chapter 9 and John chapter 15 and Joshua chapter 24 and even more of the Bible, you are shown to promote false prophecy (1 John 4:1).
Paul immediately continued Romans 9:16 with more about God the Potter and man the clay. Here is a link to the NASB Romans chapter 9 in full on BibleHub.com.
Your heart's thoughts convey "it does depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, so God has mercy" (the word of TomL) because you claim in your own initiative (will) to choose Jesus thus your heart holds that you obtain deserved forgiveness; therefore, your heart nullifies undeserved forgiveness (mercy).
You bear false witness against the Apostle Paul.
Your heart makes false statements about God. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE LORD JESUS CHRIST WHO EXCLUSIVELY CHOOSES MAN AND TO SALVATION AND RELIEVES US MISERABLE WRETCHES OF WORKING THUS GIVING US REST IN GOD!!!
All that states he determines the grounds upon which he shows mercy. It does not say he choses men unconditionally for salvation
You read that into the text and have provided nothing by way of evidence he cannot determine to save those that believe
1 Corinthians 1:21 (KJV 1900) — 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
or grant righteousness to those with faith
Romans 9:30–33 (KJV 1900) — 30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Sorry but that is absurd. God states he will save those that believe. We take him at his word.
All you do is deny it
see also Rom 9:30-32
and
Romans 11:19–23 (KJV 1900) — 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Israel was broken off because of unbelief, not God's unconditional choice before the foundation of the earth
But they could be grafted back in if they remain not in unbelief
Not if god changes his mind and reelects them but if they remain not in unbelief
Its their responsibility
They were responsible for their unbelief
Romans 10:19–21 (KJV 1900) — 19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. 20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
and they would be responsible for being grafted back in
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
What Romans 9-11 teaches , it teaches contrary to your theology
So on what basis did the gentiles obtain righteousness
Because they sought or pursued it by faith or they were unconditionally selected
Over and over Romans refutes yiour views
Right he who believes in him, not he who is unconditionally selected
As your theology erroneously holds
and salvation is the gift as per scripture
Romans 6:23 (KJV 1900) — 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
and context
if you make it or that refer to faith
Then you have faith is not of yourself and not of works
would anyone seriously argue to prove faith is not the results of words
it makes no sense
And nothing there states they were chosen for salvation and/or reprobation
You read that into the text
Jacob, the nation of Israel was chosen for service. They would carry God's message into the world and the messiah would be born of their lineage rather than that of Esau (Edom)
God chose the line of descent from Abraham through whom He would work out His redemptive plan. Both Ishmael and Esau were the physical lineage of Abraham, but not of the divinely designated seed that God would use to build the nation Israel.
HERE Jacob AND ESAU REPRESENT TWO NATIONS. ESAU NEVER PERSONALLY SERVED Jacob
This refers to Genesis 25:23
23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
The prophesy was fulfilled by Edom’s serving David 2Sam 8:14
sorry, you really have no idea what you are talking about
Again that does not refer to salvation but God choice of a servant
It would be Israel and not Edom
You cannot interpret Romans 9 contrary to its summary statement
Romans 9:29–33 (KJV 1900) — 29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha. 30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Faith or the lack of would determine who received mercy - the obtaining of righteousness
Again Jews believed they had exclusive right to mercy and righteousness
God however had determined righteousness was not by means of nationality but faith
Romans 9:30–33 (KJV 1900) — 30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
your conclusion flies in the face of this summary statement
God's mercy would be on those with faith
We saw what God's will was
it was not to select men unconditionally but to grant righteousness to those with faith
BTW the potter and the clay analogy does not support you either
The reference is to
Jeremiah 18:1–12 (KJV 1900) — 1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, 2 Arise, and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. 3 Then I went down to the potter’s house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. 7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them. 11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good. 12 And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.
Israel, though God had worked to make it a noble vessel was unfaithful and because of unfaithfulness God would use it as an ignoble vessel - to crucify the savior
The potter had not marred the clay, but the potter God used the marred unfaithful clay for his own purpose which was to extend salvation into the world through the saxcrifice of the Christ
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Rockson
Well-known member
OK now tell us what translation you've got that from. What I put in red above I thought that sounds a little awkward. It seemed to me you're forcing an agenda or a way of thought and I just checked 30 different translations and none of them render this by a belief but rather "have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith"
Here's what Strongs says about "Pistis" the greek word of FAITH.
Strong's Concordance
pistis: faith, faithfulness
Original Word: πίστις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: pistis
Phonetic Spelling: (pis'-tis)
Definition: faith, faithfulness
Usage: faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.
So granted belief is a word in usage that could potentially be used but interesting that all translators chose not to do so. They used FAITH instead which leaned towards one having need to apply it. Now you've injected instead of FAITH, Belief which would lean toward something that doesn't need to be applied. So again tell us what translation did you get this from? If you don't have one why would you quote a verse the way you do making it seem like a translation.
civic
Well-known member
yes their dead zombie doctrine is for hollywood , its not in the bible but only in the world of fantasy.
And it totally mitigates against your view of unconditional election
God would give righteous to those that believe and withhold it from those which do not
It was not about unconditional election
But righteousness, salvation by faith and not of works
Romans 9:29–33 (KJV 1900) — 29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha. 30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
you totally misread the passage
b
It is certainly contrary to the whole council of God
