Sour grapes
You prefer the phrase does not get translated as it it is used in context. It makes it easier for you to interpret according to your theology while ignoring context
An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
You prefer the phrase does not get translated as it it is used in context. It makes it easier for you to interpret according to your theology while ignoring context
Ahar, you neglected to quote this as part of the above quoted:
AND John expands with his writing of “God is Love, and the one who abides in Love abides in God, and God abides in him” (1 John 4:16, see the phrase “one who abides in Love” is equivocated with “one who abides” “in God” which extends from God’s exclusivity with “God is Love”).
We Christians love by God’s working, for clearly, Jesus’ words in John 13:34 states that the love, true love (John 3:33), the very righteous love, the Godly love within us children of God, this love is exclusively by/of/through God.
Thus is your word which sharply contrasts against the Apostle John's “love is from God” (1 John 4:7) as part of the above.
According to my brother John, Godly love makes for a Godly relationship!
You convey that you love God according to your choice by your own initiative, yet the Lord Jesus says "why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right" (Luke 12:57).
You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory
(Romans 9:19-23).
It does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy (Romans 9:16).
Commandments do not convey ability to man, but God’s commands reveal the state of man - deeds of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21) or fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23). The Apostle Paul wrote:
If it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”
(Romans 7:7)
You are arguing in the wrong direction. Adam chose not God, so Adam is not an example of humans being imparted free-will choosing ability toward God. God has me here proclaiming that no person can choose toward God rather God chooses man unto salvation (John 15:16-19).
Since you brought up Adam and Eve, then I accept your challenge, by God's grace for God's glory, into a discussion about Adam and free-will. I propose a thread that permits posts only from you and I, and since you brought up Adam and Eve, I respectfully accept the first post for opening remark. Please acknowledge.
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE MY DELIVERER!!!
A quote from Jer 18
Jeremiah 18:1–12 (NASB 2020) — 1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, 2 “Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will announce My words to you.” 3 So I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something on the wheel. 4 But the vessel that he was making of clay was spoiled in the hand of the potter; so he remade it into another vessel, as it pleased the potter to make. 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6 “Am I not able, house of Israel, to deal with you as this potter does?” declares the LORD. “Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, house of Israel. 7 At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot it, to tear it down, or to destroy it; 8 if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I planned to bring on it. 9 Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; 10 if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will relent of the good with which I said that I would bless it. 11 So now, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘This is what the LORD says: “Behold, I am forming a disaster against you and devising a plan against you. Now turn back, each of you from his evil way, and correct your ways and your deeds!” ’ 12 But they will say, ‘It’s hopeless! For we are going to follow our own plans, and each of us will persist in the stubbornness of his evil heart.’
Does that sound like an entity which had no self will
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
You're trying to change the meaning of Romans 9 by citing an entirely different set of circumstances that uses a similar metaphor. It doesn't work like that.
The Hebrew Word For "Choose" And It's Conjugates Is בָּחר (bachar) Strong's Number 977
Beholding Joshua 24:15
Joshua expresses a conditional logic statement in Joshua 24:15, and a conditional logic statement is normally an IF/THEN construct, for example:IF condition THEN predicate
Stated in a more Joshua 24:15 focused fashion.
IF you_do_this that_will_happen
Thus, the conditional expresses an action in the condition (you_do_this), and the effectual result in the predicate (that_will_happen).
A conditional does not convey ability to the recipient of the conditional.
Now, the conditional logic statement Joshua expressed was "If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD" (Joshua 24:15), so the condition (you_do_this) is "to serve the LORD is disagreeable in your eyes"; furthermore, Joshua 24:15 contains no reference to "choice" nor "free will" towards God . The condition Joshua expressed states the condition/state-of-being/nature of the person.
Disagreeable does not mean choose.
In the predicate Joshua provides only false gods to choose among for the those people whose nature is against the LORD, for Joshua said "choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living" (Joshua 24:15), and the word "choose" in this verse is translated from בָּחר (bachar) (Strong's Number 977).
Finaly, Joshua states "but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD", and there is no reference to "choice" nor "free will" towards God (Joshua 24:15).
A state of being, "disagreeable", is mentioned in Joshua 24:15, and action, "serve", is mentioned in Joshua 24:15.
There is no choice towards God mentioned in Joshua 24:15
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE LIVING REDEEMER'S HOLY NAME!!!
lol that is the reference
System Guide Customizations: Cross References (Bible Reference)
CROSS REFERENCES
Chapter 9 The Treasury of Scripture Knowledge
Romans 9:21 English Standard Version: Cross-References
Romans 9:21 The Holman Christian Standard Bible: Cross-References
Romans 9:21 New American Standard Bible: Cross-References
Je 18:6 | “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter has done? declares the LORD. Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel.
.
Israel was made to be a noble vessel but because of unfaithfulness God would now use them as an ignoble vessel - to bring about the crucifixion of the Christ
Ahar
Active member
Excuse me but I didn't neglect anything I posted exactly what I wanted to post. The same way I intend on doing with this post.
If one has to abide in love that leaves Calvinism out because there is no love in Calvinism.
We're talking about free will as opposed to total inability right? Being able to choose Jesus as your savior is what the Bible is all about.
And yet Calvinism says that we do not have a free-will. That our will is bound by sin and Satan so that it does not have the ability to choose God. Calvinism believes we cannot perceive the Truth to be saved; God does it all for us. But if we could not perceive the Truth, then why did Jesus preach It to us?
We can choose if presented with the Truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Why else would Jesus go around telling people to repent? The word “repent” would have absolutely no meaning if we do not have a free-will to do so. Can you imagine Jesus preaching “Repent!” Then a man comes up afterward and corrects Jesus saying, “I’m sorry but my will is controlled by my total depravity so it is impossible for me to repent and, well, I’m predestined by your God for Hell so it is impossible for me to follow You anyway.” Other commands that God gave us like obey Me, seek Me, and follow Me would have no meaning if man was totally depraved lacking a free-will.
Calvinism falsely believe that we cannot choose God to be saved, God does it all, “He chooses us but we do not choose Him.” But if sinners cannot choose God, then why did God tell them to choose Him?
Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve ; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
1Ki 18:21 And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions ? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him . And the people answered him not a word.
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life , that both thou and thy seed may live:
The above verses prove conclusively that a depraved man can choose God. To deny man’s free-will is to deny the Bible. Israel chose God:
Jos 24:22 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the LORD, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses.
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The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
It must be true if you say so. And it's on the Internet, too.
You left this off
Joshua 24:16–22 (NASB 2020) — 16 The people answered and said, “Far be it from us that we would abandon the LORD to serve other gods; 17 for the LORD our God is He who brought us and our fathers up out of the land of Egypt, from the house of slaves, and did these great signs in our sight and watched over us through all the way in which we went and among all the peoples through whose midst we passed. 18 The LORD drove out from before us all the peoples, even the Amorites who lived in the land. We also will serve the LORD, for He is our God.” 19 Then Joshua said to the people, “You will not be able to serve the LORD, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your wrongdoing or your sins. 20 If you abandon the LORD and serve foreign gods, then He will turn and do you harm and destroy you after He has done good to you.” 21 And the people said to Joshua, “No, but we will serve the LORD.” 22 So Joshua said to the people, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen for yourselves the LORD, to serve Him.” And they said, “We are witnesses.”
Your heart's treasure of "No linguistic, exegetical, or theological grounds exist for reducing the meaning of 'world' to 'the elect.'" is the traditions of man (Matthew 15:9) - not the Word of God, and the following which clearly demonstrates where you add to the Word of God proves this point.
I proclaim the Word of God, and I am thankful to God for God causing me to proclaim the Truth (John 14:6).
Your monumental problem results from you including yourself in "the whole world" in the Apostle John's writing "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19) as per your writing of "Yes" (as recorded in post #1,813) because the Apostle John further wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13), and John uses the "you" to refer to Christians exclusively; therefore, no Christian lies in the evil one.
Because John wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13), then this means Christians are beyond the evil one; therefore, no Christian lies in the evil one.
This means that "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19 does not include the children of God for we are Christians.
This means that "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19 does not include every person everywhere because Christians are not included.
This means that free-will supporting persons have not overcome the evil one since such free-will supporting persons include themselves in "the whole world" thus including themselves as lying in the evil one.
Do not forget, you wrote "you cannot leave out of all mankind" (which means you include the elect and recorded here post #1,808) with respect to the word "world", so you, TomL, include as part of "the whole world" yourself as per the Apostle John's writing of "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19) - and you wrote "Yes" to this - that is self-condemnatory.
We God's chosen (elect) are a part of the world before God delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son (Colossians 1:13) for it is written "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come" (Revelation 17:8), so the name of every single one of God's elect (chosen) persons is known prior to the birth of anyone of us God's chosen (God's elect) persons.
In the continuation of this post, you can find Spiritual Truth (John 14:6):
Context in the New Testament Establishes the Meaning of the Greek Word κόσμος/Kosmos (World)
Every single one of us God's chosen persons starts out in the world.
The word "world" possesses a variety of definitions in scripture, and the context of the word "world" generally sets the definition.
The Greek word κόσμος (kosmos, Strong's 2889 - world) translates to "world".
Paul mentions "before the foundation of the world" (Ephesians 1:4) in the passage.
The "world" as used by Paul here indicates all the earth and all that is in it.
Paul refers to the time before the earth ("world") was created.
The word "world" in Ephesians 1:4 is the earth and all that is in the earth.
The first order is to look at Lord Jesus' words as recorded by the Apostle John:
"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that every believing will in Him have eternal life, for God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that every believing in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:14-16).
The second order is to examine the history of "the serpent in the wilderness" that Jesus mentions (see John 3:14):
Then YHWH said to Moses, "Make a fiery [serpent], and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live." And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived.
(Numbers 21:8-9)
The third order is to listen to the Master.
Jesus sets "the serpent in the wilderness" "lifted up" in relation to "the Son of Man" "lifted up" (all in John 3:14).
Jesus then states "so that every believing will in" Jesus "have eternal life" (John 3:15), but He intensifies this statement by repeating it right away.
Jesus continues with "for God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son" (John 3:16), and here is where Jesus mentions "world".
Jesus follows up with intensifying his prior declaration (John 3:15) with "that every believing in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:16).
The fourth order is to acknowledge the Master's words.
Jesus mentioned "the serpent in the wilderness", so by this He brings up the account of the bronze serpent (John 3:16 includes Numbers 21:8-9).
The relation that Jesus set between the bronze serpent lifted up and Himself lifted up bears significance upon the population of persons that Jesus establishes for the word "world" in John 3:16.
For the next four paragraphs, we see the Word of God speaking to Moses (Numbers 21:8) in relation to the Word of God speaking to Nicodemus (John 3:16).
Notice how "everyone who is bitten" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "world" (John 3:16).
Notice how "when he" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "that every one" (John 3:16, note that the singular (not plural) Greek word pas [Strongs 3956] translates accurately as "every one" not so much as the unfettered promiscuous "whosoever" [KJV] or "whoever" [NASB]).
Notice how "look" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "believing" (John 3:16).
Notice how "live" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "eternal life" (John 3:16).
God told Moses that a person bitten by one of the serpents "will live" when the person looks at "the serpent in the wilderness".
Based on God's command about "the serpent in the wilderness" (Numbers 21:8) and the results of the bronze serpent that Moses set on the standard (Numbers 21:9), the population of persons that certainly were affected by God's command about "the serpent in the wilderness" in order to live were ONLY each bitten person that looked at "the serpent in the wilderness".
In other words, the population of persons associated with living by looking at "the serpent in the wilderness" was restricted to ONLY the bitten persons that looked at the bronze serpent. For simplicity, I'll call this the "population of bitten look livers".
Furthermore, there is a different population of persons. This population of persons are not in the "population of bitten look livers". For example, this population of persons could include bitten persons that DID NOT LOOK AT "the serpent in the wilderness" after the "the serpent in the wilderness" was set on a pole/standard (Numbers 21:9). As another example, this population of persons certainly includes bitten persons that DID NOT LOOK AT "the serpent in the wilderness" due to the many people of Israel (Numbers 21:6) who were dead before God Almighty commanded Moses to make the "the serpent in the wilderness" "and set it on a standard" (Numbers 21:8). This population of persons I'll call the "population of bitten-non-lookers".
Therefore, there are separate populations of persons identified in Jesus' words as recorded by the Apostle John (John 3:14-16). There was the "population of bitten look livers"; meanwhile, there was the "population of bitten-non-lookers".
Jesus utilized a comparator in which a group of many persons in the "population of bitten-non-lookers" were incapable of looking at the "the serpent in the wilderness" because that subset of people were dead prior to Moses fashioning the bronze serpent (Numbers 21:9), so Jesus sets the same standard for a subset of persons in the "world" (John 3:16) because that group of people are incapable of seeing King Jesus (John 3:3-8).
God requires for persons to believe in Jesus in order to be granted eternal life by God (John 3:15, John 3:16).
So, it follows, when Lord Jesus says "God so loved the world" (John 3:16), then specifically He is saying God loves the ones who will believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).
This relation set by Jesus establishes that the word "world" as used by Jesus in John 3:14-16 includes ONLY the population of persons that currently believe in Jesus or will in the future believe in Jesus.
The Word of God conclusively proves that the context establishes the "world" as the population of God's chosen persons ONLY.
Before and after saying "world", Jesus establishes the requirement of believing in Jesus in order for persons to be in the population of persons granted eternal life by God.
Jesus, the Word of God, says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).
Jesus defines righteous faith/belief such that a person believing in Jesus whom the Father has sent is the work of God (John 6:29).
Jesus attributes a complete package, a whole gift, a finished work which He refers to as "that you believe in Him whom He has sent".
God deposits "that you believe in Him whom He has sent" in a person as a complete, sufficiently functioning work by God unto salvation of the person with nothing additional by the person as necessary, no choice by the person, no work of a decision by the person, no acceptance by the person, nothing by the person to achieve salvation.
So, "that you believe in Him whom He has sent" is a complete thing with nothing more to add by the person to the righteous faith/belief deposited by God unto being saved from the wrath of God.
Jesus clearly explains that the "believe in Him whom He has sent" is locked inside of the "you" specified by Jesus (John 6:29).
This "locking" is "the work of God" for God secures all of God's own persons unto eternal life (John 10:27-29).
The whole pagkage is done, finished, and complete.
There is nothing more "to be done" by the "you" with the finished package in order to obtain the gift of eternal life in God.
Thus, the only persons with righteous faith/belief implanted by God for a person's salvation are in the population of persons with eternal life in God (John 6:29, John 3:16).
The Word of God conclusively proves that the context establishes the "world" as the population of God's chosen persons ONLY.
When self-willed persons (2 Peter 2:9-10) define the "world" in John 3:16 as everyone everywhere without exception, then such persons assert that the Truth (Jesus - John 14:6) tells a lie. The deception results because such persons have Jesus losing persons eternally in spite of Him saying "I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand" (John 10:28).
The "no one" in "no one will snatch them out of My hand" means no one, not the devil, not the person himself or herself, not another person. The "no one" means absolutely NO ONE.
If the word "world" in John 3:16 includes the population of persons who die while in disbelief/unfaith, then God lost some persons to eternal punishment instead of eternal life.
Since believing in the Son of God whom God the Father has sent is the work of God (John 6:29) and no one will snatch a God rooted believer out of Jesus' hand (John 10:28), then the population of persons represented by the word "world" by Jesus as recorded by the Apostle John (John 3:16) must of necessity be only persons who currently believe in Jesus or will in the future believe in Jesus unto eternal life in God.
The Word of God conclusively proves that the context establishes the "world" as the population of believers, God's chosen persons, existing or yet to be ONLY.
The word "world" in John 3:16 is the population of persons who currently are or in the future will be imparted the work of God unto salvation that is faith/belief in Lord Jesus Christ whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).
The Apostle John wrote "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for [those of] the whole world" (1 John 2:2).
The Apostle John also wrote "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19).
Notice "the whole world" occurs twice in the same book with the same author.
Since free-will supporting persons (2 Peter 2:9-10) say "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 means every person everywhere can choose salvation, then such persons interpretation of "the whole world" has such free-will supporting persons themselves as part of "the whole world" lying in the evil one per 1 John 5:19.
The Apostle John further wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13), and John uses the "you" to refer to Christians exclusively; therefore, no Christian lies in the evil one.
Because John wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13), then this means Christians are beyond the evil one; therefore, no Christian lies in the evil one.
This means that "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19 does not include the children of God for we are Christians.
This means that "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19 does not include every person everywhere because Christians are not included.
This means that free-will supporting persons have not overcome the evil one since such free-will supporting persons include themselves in "the whole world" thus including themselves as lying in the evil one.
The "lies" or "lying" in the evil one is similar to "abides" or "abiding" in the evil one, so there is a tight relationship between such free-will supporting persons and the evil one.
The English word "lies" in 1 John 2:2 derives from the Greek word "κεῖται" (Strong's 2749 - keimai - to be laid, lie) which specifically means "lay".
This means that free-will supporting persons are not Christians, and it is the free-will supporting persons definition of "world" that effectually makes such free-will supporting persons Non-Christians, that is, unbelievers.
This also means the word "world" does not have to mean every person everywhere when the word "world" is used in the Bible.
These two different meanings for the word "world", "the whole world", occur in one book of the New Testament.
It is time to return to 1 John 2:2.
In 1 John 2:2, the word "world" does not include persons that currently have been imparted the work of God, faith/belief, in Lord Jesus Christ whom the Father has sent (John 6:29) because John led with "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins and not for ours only", so John uses "our" for exclusively current believers and John uses "world" for exclusively future believers.
The word "world" in 1 John 2:2 is the population of persons who are yet to be imparted the work of God that is faith/belief in Lord Jesus Christ whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).
The word "world" in 1 John 5:19 is the population of persons who have NOT been imparted the work of God that is faith/belief in Lord Jesus Christ whom the Father has sent (John 6:29), and this population of persons includes persons that will not be imparted faith/belief before such persons die.
Behold, the two different populations of persons represented by "world" in the Book of the First Letter of John (1 John).
The word "world" has four different meanings in the above passages.
The word "world" does not of necessity need to be defined as "all the people that are in it".
The word "world" in the New Testament Books is generally defined by the context around the word.
The absolute Truth (John 14:6) is that the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! BLESSED JESUS, THOU HAST BOUGHT US, THINE WE ARE!!!
Context in the New Testament Establishes the Meaning of the Greek Word κόσμος/Kosmos (World)
The word "world" possesses a variety of definitions in scripture, and the context of the word "world" generally sets the definition.
The Greek word κόσμος (kosmos, Strong's 2889 - world) translates to "world".
The Word "World" in Ephesians 1:1-14
Paul mentions "before the foundation of the world" (Ephesians 1:4) in the passage.
The "world" as used by Paul here indicates all the earth and all that is in it.
Paul refers to the time before the earth ("world") was created.
The word "world" in Ephesians 1:4 is the earth and all that is in the earth.
The Word "World" in John 3:16 (John 3:14-16)
The first order is to look at Lord Jesus' words as recorded by the Apostle John:
"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that every believing will in Him have eternal life, for God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that every believing in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:14-16).
The second order is to examine the history of "the serpent in the wilderness" that Jesus mentions (see John 3:14):
Then YHWH said to Moses, "Make a fiery [serpent], and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live." And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived.
(Numbers 21:8-9)
The third order is to listen to the Master.
Jesus sets "the serpent in the wilderness" "lifted up" in relation to "the Son of Man" "lifted up" (all in John 3:14).
Jesus then states "so that every believing will in" Jesus "have eternal life" (John 3:15), but He intensifies this statement by repeating it right away.
Jesus continues with "for God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son" (John 3:16), and here is where Jesus mentions "world".
Jesus follows up with intensifying his prior declaration (John 3:15) with "that every believing in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:16).
The fourth order is to acknowledge the Master's words.
Jesus mentioned "the serpent in the wilderness", so by this He brings up the account of the bronze serpent (John 3:16 includes Numbers 21:8-9).
The relation that Jesus set between the bronze serpent lifted up and Himself lifted up bears significance upon the population of persons that Jesus establishes for the word "world" in John 3:16.
For the next four paragraphs, we see the Word of God speaking to Moses (Numbers 21:8) in relation to the Word of God speaking to Nicodemus (John 3:16).
Notice how "everyone who is bitten" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "world" (John 3:16).
Notice how "when he" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "that every one" (John 3:16, note that the singular (not plural) Greek word pas [Strongs 3956] translates accurately as "every one" not so much as the unfettered promiscuous "whosoever" [KJV] or "whoever" [NASB]).
Notice how "look" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "believing" (John 3:16).
Notice how "live" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "eternal life" (John 3:16).
God told Moses that a person bitten by one of the serpents "will live" when the person looks at "the serpent in the wilderness".
Based on God's command about "the serpent in the wilderness" (Numbers 21:8) and the results of the bronze serpent that Moses set on the standard (Numbers 21:9), the population of persons that certainly were affected by God's command about "the serpent in the wilderness" in order to live were ONLY each bitten person that looked at "the serpent in the wilderness".
In other words, the population of persons associated with living by looking at "the serpent in the wilderness" was restricted to ONLY the bitten persons that looked at the bronze serpent. For simplicity, I'll call this the "population of bitten look livers".
Furthermore, there is a different population of persons. This population of persons are not in the "population of bitten look livers". For example, this population of persons could include bitten persons that DID NOT LOOK AT "the serpent in the wilderness" after the "the serpent in the wilderness" was set on a pole/standard (Numbers 21:9). As another example, this population of persons certainly includes bitten persons that DID NOT LOOK AT "the serpent in the wilderness" due to the many people of Israel (Numbers 21:6) who were dead before God Almighty commanded Moses to make the "the serpent in the wilderness" "and set it on a standard" (Numbers 21:8). This population of persons I'll call the "population of bitten-non-lookers".
Therefore, there are separate populations of persons identified in Jesus' words as recorded by the Apostle John (John 3:14-16). There was the "population of bitten look livers"; meanwhile, there was the "population of bitten-non-lookers".
Jesus utilized a comparator in which a group of many persons in the "population of bitten-non-lookers" were incapable of looking at the "the serpent in the wilderness" because that subset of people were dead prior to Moses fashioning the bronze serpent (Numbers 21:9), so Jesus sets the same standard for a subset of persons in the "world" (John 3:16) because that group of people are incapable of seeing King Jesus (John 3:3-8).
God requires for persons to believe in Jesus in order to be granted eternal life by God (John 3:15, John 3:16).
So, it follows, when Lord Jesus says "God so loved the world" (John 3:16), then specifically He is saying God loves the ones who will believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).
This relation set by Jesus establishes that the word "world" as used by Jesus in John 3:14-16 includes ONLY the population of persons that currently believe in Jesus or will in the future believe in Jesus.
The Word of God conclusively proves that the context establishes the "world" as the population of God's chosen persons ONLY.
Before and after saying "world", Jesus establishes the requirement of believing in Jesus in order for persons to be in the population of persons granted eternal life by God.
Jesus, the Word of God, says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).
Jesus defines righteous faith/belief such that a person believing in Jesus whom the Father has sent is the work of God (John 6:29).
Jesus attributes a complete package, a whole gift, a finished work which He refers to as "that you believe in Him whom He has sent".
God deposits "that you believe in Him whom He has sent" in a person as a complete, sufficiently functioning work by God unto salvation of the person with nothing additional by the person as necessary, no choice by the person, no work of a decision by the person, no acceptance by the person, nothing by the person to achieve salvation.
So, "that you believe in Him whom He has sent" is a complete thing with nothing more to add by the person to the righteous faith/belief deposited by God unto being saved from the wrath of God.
Jesus clearly explains that the "believe in Him whom He has sent" is locked inside of the "you" specified by Jesus (John 6:29).
This "locking" is "the work of God" for God secures all of God's own persons unto eternal life (John 10:27-29).
The whole pagkage is done, finished, and complete.
There is nothing more "to be done" by the "you" with the finished package in order to obtain the gift of eternal life in God.
Thus, the only persons with righteous faith/belief implanted by God for a person's salvation are in the population of persons with eternal life in God (John 6:29, John 3:16).
The Word of God conclusively proves that the context establishes the "world" as the population of God's chosen persons ONLY.
When self-willed persons (2 Peter 2:9-10) define the "world" in John 3:16 as everyone everywhere without exception, then such persons assert that the Truth (Jesus - John 14:6) tells a lie. The deception results because such persons have Jesus losing persons eternally in spite of Him saying "I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand" (John 10:28).
The "no one" in "no one will snatch them out of My hand" means no one, not the devil, not the person himself or herself, not another person. The "no one" means absolutely NO ONE.
If the word "world" in John 3:16 includes the population of persons who die while in disbelief/unfaith, then God lost some persons to eternal punishment instead of eternal life.
Since believing in the Son of God whom God the Father has sent is the work of God (John 6:29) and no one will snatch a God rooted believer out of Jesus' hand (John 10:28), then the population of persons represented by the word "world" by Jesus as recorded by the Apostle John (John 3:16) must of necessity be only persons who currently believe in Jesus or will in the future believe in Jesus unto eternal life in God.
The Word of God conclusively proves that the context establishes the "world" as the population of believers, God's chosen persons, existing or yet to be ONLY.
The word "world" in John 3:16 is the population of persons who currently are or in the future will be imparted the work of God unto salvation that is faith/belief in Lord Jesus Christ whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).
The Word "World" in The Book of the First Letter of John (1 John 2:2, 1 John 5:19)
The Apostle John wrote "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for [those of] the whole world" (1 John 2:2).
The Apostle John also wrote "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19).
Notice "the whole world" occurs twice in the same book with the same author.
Since free-will supporting persons (2 Peter 2:9-10) say "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 means every person everywhere can choose salvation, then such persons interpretation of "the whole world" has such free-will supporting persons themselves as part of "the whole world" lying in the evil one per 1 John 5:19.
The Apostle John further wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13), and John uses the "you" to refer to Christians exclusively; therefore, no Christian lies in the evil one.
Because John wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13), then this means Christians are beyond the evil one; therefore, no Christian lies in the evil one.
This means that "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19 does not include the children of God for we are Christians.
This means that "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19 does not include every person everywhere because Christians are not included.
This means that free-will supporting persons have not overcome the evil one since such free-will supporting persons include themselves in "the whole world" thus including themselves as lying in the evil one.
The "lies" or "lying" in the evil one is similar to "abides" or "abiding" in the evil one, so there is a tight relationship between such free-will supporting persons and the evil one.
The English word "lies" in 1 John 2:2 derives from the Greek word "κεῖται" (Strong's 2749 - keimai - to be laid, lie) which specifically means "lay".
This means that free-will supporting persons are not Christians, and it is the free-will supporting persons definition of "world" that effectually makes such free-will supporting persons Non-Christians, that is, unbelievers.
This also means the word "world" does not have to mean every person everywhere when the word "world" is used in the Bible.
These two different meanings for the word "world", "the whole world", occur in one book of the New Testament.
It is time to return to 1 John 2:2.
- John was writing to God's own people in the Book of the First Letter of John (1 John), so the context is believers, John wrote "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins" (1 John 2:2) - that "our" and the upcoming "ours" are believers, so continuing on with that which John wrote "and not for ours only, but also for the whole world".
- A believer reading 1 John 2:2 knows that God converted the believer from "the whole world" into the "our" of God's assembly of believers (Matthew 18:3), yet an unbeliever who reads 1 John 2:2 considers Jesus' sacrifice foolishness (1 Corinthians 2:14); therefore, the phrase "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 is such that "the whole world" refers to the chosen persons of God (John 15:16, John 15:19) who God is yet to work faith/belief in the Son of God whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).
- The phrase "{b]the whole world[/b]" in 1 John 2:2 refers only to the chosen persons of God (John 15:16, John 15:19) who are yet to be imparted the work of God which is faith/belief in Lord Jesus Christ whom the Father has sent (John 6:29); otherwise, the phrase "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 results in everyone everywhere being saved from the wrath of God, a.k.a. universalism, yet universalism is deception because the Word of God says "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 7:21) thus Jesus indicates that some people do not enter heaven which means those people go to hell (Matthew 25:41).
- The phrase "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 refers only persons yet to become part of Israel, the true Israel (Romans 9:6) and persons grafted into Israel (Romans 11:11-36), for the Word of God says "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matthew 15:24).
In 1 John 2:2, the word "world" does not include persons that currently have been imparted the work of God, faith/belief, in Lord Jesus Christ whom the Father has sent (John 6:29) because John led with "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins and not for ours only", so John uses "our" for exclusively current believers and John uses "world" for exclusively future believers.
The word "world" in 1 John 2:2 is the population of persons who are yet to be imparted the work of God that is faith/belief in Lord Jesus Christ whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).
The word "world" in 1 John 5:19 is the population of persons who have NOT been imparted the work of God that is faith/belief in Lord Jesus Christ whom the Father has sent (John 6:29), and this population of persons includes persons that will not be imparted faith/belief before such persons die.
Behold, the two different populations of persons represented by "world" in the Book of the First Letter of John (1 John).
Conclusion About The Word "World" in The New Testament Books
The word "world" has four different meanings in the above passages.
The word "world" does not of necessity need to be defined as "all the people that are in it".
The word "world" in the New Testament Books is generally defined by the context around the word.
The absolute Truth (John 14:6) is that the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! BLESSED JESUS, THOU HAST BOUGHT US, THINE WE ARE!!!
Nothing in your post changed the Truth (John 14:6) that you remain dead wrong about "Nope the parallel passage to John 3:14–18 Shows any sinner is included in the word World" (as recorded in post #1,872) about "I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world" (the Word of God, John 12:47) because your heart's thoughts there adulterate the Word of God into "I did not come to judge every sinner, but to save every sinner" (the uninspired word of TomL), so your heart's treasure is that the Word of God fails at saving "every sinner" because the Word of God says some sinners go to hell with His meaningful "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 7:21).
Your "further, your so-called colossal problem is merely a figment of your imagination. As we are not told to look upon Christ on the cross but to believe on him" remains intact because you cannot “believe in Him whom He has sent” without “the work of God" since the Christ of us Christians declares “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29). Your words are tantamount to you saying that Jesus is less than who Jesus says that Jesus is, and your word is addressed by the Word of God as recorded in John 12:47-48 which we visit in a moment - pay attention to John 12:48.
And your "and quoting your oft rebutted appeal to John 6:29 accomplishes nothing" is you not receiving Christ's teachings as per the very Word of God that you quoted in your post "If anyone hears My teachings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. The one who rejects Me and does not receive My teachings has one who judges him: the word which I spoke. That will judge him on the last day" (John 12:47-48).
Your gargantuan problem did not vanish based on your post; rather, your gargantuan problem just mushroomed into a monumental problem based on your word. Let's look at the compounding effect of the above upon the below.
Your "Christ did not choose his disciples" is you doing "continuing to assume your beliefs in the face of scriptural rebuttal is disrespectful to the word of God" because you reviled these angelic majesties by effectively labeling the Apostles as deceivers with your “Nothing mentioned about Joseph and Matthias being in the audience on that ocassion” as recorded in post #645 of which your thoughts there daringly contradict angelic majesties testimony of the Apostle Peter “men who have accompanied us all the time” (Acts 1:21) while Peter was with all the Apostles.
Joseph and Matthias were in the room when Lord Jesus says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation).
So, you call the Apostles all liars because all the remaining Apostles were with the Apostle Peter when Peter said:
Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us – beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us – one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.’ So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias.
(Acts 1:21-23)
Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more people beyond the Apostles for a minimum total of 13 disciples who are specifically identified at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17; therefore, Lord Jesus Christ’s “you” in John 15:16 and John 15:19 extends well beyond the Apostles, in Truth (John 14:6)!
Christ uses “you” to indicate all Christians in all time are chosen by God alone unto salvation as well as to bring the message of Christ’s salvation to the world when King Jesus majestically decrees “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation). Your evasion of the King’s decree is a terror.
Your "The obvious difference there was an atonement they could look forward to" does not negate the inclusion of time before, during, and after for both occurrence of "lifted up" in the comparison that Jesus makes in:
As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that every believing will in Him have eternal life, for God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that every believing in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:14-16).
Furthermore, you have a colossal problem because you cannot "look to or believe upon the lifted atonement" for Christ is RISEN! He is not on the cross anymore, yet you CREATED the rule that eliminates "the period before the atonement was (lifted) up" which must of necessity eliminate all time afterward when the "lifted up" was no longer there, and you weren't there to see Him when He was lifted up, so you are not among the audience of the people who "look to or believe upon the lifted atonement" according to YOUR rules (your rules are recorded in post #1,116).
In Truth (John 14:6), you cannot believe in the Christ who was lifted up apart from the work of God for the Word of God declares "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29), and the only human way to get the work of man in the pure Word of God is for man to add to the Word of God, and it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).
This current post is extant to this post where the Word of God plants Spiritual Truth (John 14:6):
Context in the New Testament Establishes the Meaning of the Greek Word κόσμος/Kosmos (World)
Your heart makes false statements about God. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE LORD WHO HOLDS ALL CREATION TOGETHER!!!
Sorry world never means the elect alone
and it cannot especially mean that here
John 12:47 (KJV 1900) — 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
and that of itself refutes your theology
and that parallels
John 3:16–17 (KJV 1900) — 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
confirming God's love for more than the elect and god's giving of his son for more than the elect
civic
Well-known member
You left this out oops
John 15- “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.
I have chosen you out of the world.—Comp. John 15:16, and Note on John 7:7. There He had told them that the world could not hate them. The very fact of its hatred would prove a moral change in them, by which they had ceased to belong to the world, and had become the children of God. Both thoughts are repeated in 1John 3:13; 1John 4:5.elliot
hope this helps !!!
you are in denial
Tom did not write
John 12:47 (KJV 1900) — 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
according to the verse why does he not judge any who do not believe at his coming
Sorry appealing to a verse of which your understanding has been roundly rebutted cannot help you now
Context refutes you
In verse 27 they were told to labor to work ἐργάζομαι in the greek by Jesus who is telling them there is something they must do
In verse 28 they ask what might we do to work ἐργάζομαι the works (ἔργον) of God
The works of God is a reference to the work God asks of them. It does not refer to what God does
in verse 29 we have the noun form of the greek listed above ἔργον - This is the work (ἔργον) of God
It is the same word in verse 28 in the phrase works of God ἔργον
And Jesus is telling them what they must do - Believe on him who God sent
Verse 28. - They say unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God? The works of God might be, either works like those which are wrought by God the Father, but this would be a very improbable demand; or "the works of God" may be those which God has assigned to man as the conditions of his favour.
You simply assume your view ignoring the fact they are asking what they must do
and jesus told them to do something
Your example is a poor parallel and it is not rational that after telling them there is something they must do, he then turns around and tells them there is nothing they must do and that God does it.
Your explanation ignores context and is simply not rational
He leaves out a lot to posit his theology. Context and the overall council of scripture must take a back seat to the needs of his theology
We Christians are God's vessels of mercy (Romans 9:19-23) doing the work/deeds for the Bread of Life (John 6:27-33), and these deeds/work are wrought in God (John 3:21) because the Word of God says “he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (John 3:21).
Your "I could take you to any court of law and you'd be laughed out of court for your claims of denying it" demonstrates your focus on the courts/law/rule of man instead of the Righteous Court of God with Holy Judge presiding. The Son of God says “he who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).
Furthermore, Free-willian Philosophers are under the delusion that "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal" (tthe Word of God, John 6:27) in their hearts translates to "Do not work for the food which perishes, but YOU HAVE THE ABILITY IN YOUR OWN INITIATIVE TO WORK for the food which endures to eternal life, SO YOU MUST CHOOSE WHETHER TO ACCEPT THE FOOD THAT the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal" (the word of free-willians) in spite of the Word of God sayings “And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right” (Luke 12:57) and
“you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19).
Free-willian's hearts even subtract "which the Son of Man will give to you" (John 6:27) about the food for which Jesus says "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life" (John 6:27). Jesus clearly states the righteous work of man is Fruit of the Spirit because the food is given by God to man which is another declaration about the exclusive power of God in the salvation of man. A crucial concept established by Jesus in John 6:27 is that the only people to receive Jesus' food are the people to whom Jesus gives the food, but free-willian philosophy ends up with people in hell who are failures of "the food which endures to eternal life" (John 6:27). This paragraph's explanation is all in the recorded Word of God in John 6:27 without stepping to another verse.
The Word in John 6:27 refers to the man's work which is truly the act of God in man; on the other hand, the Word in John 6:29 refers to man's belief which is truly the act of God in man.
In the first (John 6:27), Lord Jesus explains the outward evidence of us Christians controlled by our loving Father in Heaven, and in the second (John 6:29), Jesus explains the inward event of us Christians controlled by our loving Father in Heaven.
Your heart's treasure produces false statements about God. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE AUTHOR AND PERFECTER OF THE FAITH!!!
Rockson
Well-known member
That doesn't say the work of believing is carried out by God....but IN God. Big difference. The word of God the gospel goes into the heart but it won't produce many times for the reason of what the recipient is not doing with their heart. Showing humility. (see the sower sows the word) By cooperating with God they are in God or in his power but it does not mean God did the work of believing. John 6:27,28 go clearly against what you would say.
Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. John 6:27
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Is stealing some of the Glory of God by crediting their own free will something that has eternal consequences?
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Who are you kidding?
You believe God chose your total depraved self over Christ.
