An Article on free will

[Rockson]

Who says that's not @brightfame52's view already?

I think I'll ask him.

 

[Rowan]

I think I'll ask him.

Should clarify everything.

 

[Rockson]

Heres the god that bows to mans will ....

Hey Brightfame.....I'm curuios to what you actually believe. Do you believe the following is fine for a man to do this?

That is like saying one is a sorry man who doesn't force a female to be in relationship with him if he wants her. After all....he's physically stronger then her so if he doesn't assert his physical strength he's certainly not a man but a wimp.

 

[TomL]

It is on Gods side, His will didnt get accomplished, that means mans will trumped Gods will, thats a sorry god if you ask me,

Its not the God of scripture Job 23:13

13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.

14 For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.

Dan 4:35

35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

You have not shown it is his will to determine all things

You assume it while ignoring contrary indication

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.

1John 2:16 For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life—is not from the Father but is from the world.

Jer. 32:35 They built the high places of Baal in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to offer up their sons and daughters to Molech, though I did not command them, nor did it enter into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Is. 30:1 “Ah, stubborn children,” declares the LORD,
“who carry out a plan, but not mine,
and who make an alliance, but not of my Spirit,
that they may add sin to sin;

Gal. 5:7 You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion is not from him who calls you.

1Cor. 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

Rom. 11:23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

God is frequently seen as regretful, hurt, greived, disappointed, angered by the actions of mankind. What sense would that make if he was determining their acts



Jer. 3:19 “ ‘I said,

How I would set you among my sons,

and give you a pleasant land,

a heritage most beautiful of all nations.

And I thought you would call me, My Father,

and would not turn from following me.

20 Surely, as a treacherous wife leaves her husband,

so have you been treacherous to me, O house of Israel,

declares the LORD.’”



Is. 48:17 Thus says the LORD,

your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel:

“I am the LORD your God,

who teaches you to profit,

who leads you in the way you should go.

18 Oh that you had paid attention to my commandments!

Then your peace would have been like a river,

and your righteousness like the waves of the sea;

19 your offspring would have been like the sand,

and your descendants like its grains;

their name would never be cut off

or destroyed from before me.”



Is. 65:11 But you who forsake the LORD,

who forget my holy mountain,

who set a table for Fortune

and fill cups of mixed wine for Destiny,

12 I will destine you to the sword,

and all of you shall bow down to the slaughter,

because, when I called, you did not answer;

when I spoke, you did not listen,

but you did what was evil in my eyes

and chose what I did not delight in.”



Luke 7:30 but the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the purpose of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.)



Deut. 5:28 “And the LORD heard your words, when you spoke to me. And the LORD said to me, ‘I have heard the words of this people, which they have spoken to you. They are right in all that they have spoken. 29 Oh that they had such a heart as this always, to fear me and to keep all my commandments, that it might go well with them and with their descendants forever! 30 Go and say to them, “Return to your tents.” 31 But you, stand here by me, and I will tell you the whole commandment and the statutes and the rules that you shall teach them, that they may do them in the land that I am giving them to possess.’ 32 You shall be careful therefore to do as the LORD your God has commanded you. You shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left. 33 You shall walk in all the way that the LORD your God has commanded you, that you may live, and that it may go well with you, and that you may live long in the land that you shall possess.



Jer. 18:7 If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, 8 and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it. 9 And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, 10 and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it. 11 Now, therefore, say to the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem: ‘Thus says the LORD, Behold, I am shaping disaster against you and devising a plan against you. Return, every one from his evil way, and amend your ways and your deeds.’ 12 “But they say, ‘That is in vain! We will follow our own plans, and will every one act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart.’



Jer. 18:13 “Therefore thus says the LORD:

Ask among the nations,

Who has heard the like of this?

The virgin Israel

has done a very horrible thing.

14 Does the snow of Lebanon leave

the crags of Sirion?

Do the mountain waters run dry,

the cold flowing streams?

15 But my people have forgotten me;

they make offerings to false gods;

they made them stumble in their ways,

in the ancient roads,

and to walk into side roads,

not the highway,

16 making their land a horror,

a thing to be hissed at forever.

Everyone who passes by it is horrified

and shakes his head.



Jer. 7:31 And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind.



Jer. 19:5 and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind—



Jer. 32:35 They built the high places of Baal in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to offer up their sons and daughters to Molech, though I did not command them, nor did it enter into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.



Ezekiel 16:20–21 (ESV) — 20 And you took your sons and your daughters, whom you had borne to me, and these you sacrificed to them to be devoured. Were your whorings so small a matter 21 that you slaughtered my children and delivered them up as an offering by fire to them?



Ezekiel 23:37–39 (ESV) — 37 For they have committed adultery, and blood is on their hands. With their idols they have committed adultery, and they have even offered up to them for food the children whom they had borne to me. 38 Moreover, this they have done to me: they have defiled my sanctuary on the same day and profaned my Sabbaths. 39 For when they had slaughtered their children in sacrifice to their idols, on the same day they came into my sanctuary to profane it. And behold, this is what they did in my house.



2 Chronicles 28:3–5 (ESV) — 3 and he made offerings in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom and burned his sons as an offering, according to the abominations of the nations whom the LORD drove out before the people of Israel. 4 And he sacrificed and made offerings on the high places and on the hills and under every green tree. 5 Therefore the LORD his God gave him into the hand of the king of Syria, who defeated him and took captive a great number of his people and brought them to Damascus. He was also given into the hand of the king of Israel, who struck him with great force.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, a disappointed God who wants to save everyone, but most men won't let him.

Aint that something, And Salvation is according to His Purpose 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

 

[brightfame52]

Hey Brightfame.....I'm curuios to what you actually believe. Do you believe the following is fine for a man to do this?

That is like saying one is a sorry man who doesn't force a female to be in relationship with him if he wants her. After all....he's physically stronger then her so if he doesn't assert his physical strength he's certainly not a man but a wimp.

It is on Gods side, His will didnt get accomplished, that means mans will trumped Gods will, thats a sorry god if you ask me,

Its not the God of scripture Job 23:13

13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.

14 For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.

Dan 4:35

35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

 

[brightfame52]

You have not shown it is his will to determine all things

You assume it while ignoring contrary indication

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.

1John 2:16 For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life—is not from the Father but is from the world.

Jer. 32:35 They built the high places of Baal in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to offer up their sons and daughters to Molech, though I did not command them, nor did it enter into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Is. 30:1 “Ah, stubborn children,” declares the LORD,
“who carry out a plan, but not mine,
and who make an alliance, but not of my Spirit,
that they may add sin to sin;

Gal. 5:7 You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion is not from him who calls you.

1Cor. 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

Rom. 11:23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

God is frequently seen as regretful, hurt, greived, disappointed, angered by the actions of mankind. What sense would that make if he was determining their acts



Jer. 3:19 “ ‘I said,

How I would set you among my sons,

and give you a pleasant land,

a heritage most beautiful of all nations.

And I thought you would call me, My Father,

and would not turn from following me.

20 Surely, as a treacherous wife leaves her husband,

so have you been treacherous to me, O house of Israel,

declares the LORD.’”



Is. 48:17 Thus says the LORD,

your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel:

“I am the LORD your God,

who teaches you to profit,

who leads you in the way you should go.

18 Oh that you had paid attention to my commandments!

Then your peace would have been like a river,

and your righteousness like the waves of the sea;

19 your offspring would have been like the sand,

and your descendants like its grains;

their name would never be cut off

or destroyed from before me.”



Is. 65:11 But you who forsake the LORD,

who forget my holy mountain,

who set a table for Fortune

and fill cups of mixed wine for Destiny,

12 I will destine you to the sword,

and all of you shall bow down to the slaughter,

because, when I called, you did not answer;

when I spoke, you did not listen,

but you did what was evil in my eyes

and chose what I did not delight in.”



Luke 7:30 but the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the purpose of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.)



Deut. 5:28 “And the LORD heard your words, when you spoke to me. And the LORD said to me, ‘I have heard the words of this people, which they have spoken to you. They are right in all that they have spoken. 29 Oh that they had such a heart as this always, to fear me and to keep all my commandments, that it might go well with them and with their descendants forever! 30 Go and say to them, “Return to your tents.” 31 But you, stand here by me, and I will tell you the whole commandment and the statutes and the rules that you shall teach them, that they may do them in the land that I am giving them to possess.’ 32 You shall be careful therefore to do as the LORD your God has commanded you. You shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left. 33 You shall walk in all the way that the LORD your God has commanded you, that you may live, and that it may go well with you, and that you may live long in the land that you shall possess.



Jer. 18:7 If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, 8 and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it. 9 And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, 10 and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it. 11 Now, therefore, say to the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem: ‘Thus says the LORD, Behold, I am shaping disaster against you and devising a plan against you. Return, every one from his evil way, and amend your ways and your deeds.’ 12 “But they say, ‘That is in vain! We will follow our own plans, and will every one act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart.’



Jer. 18:13 “Therefore thus says the LORD:

Ask among the nations,

Who has heard the like of this?

The virgin Israel

has done a very horrible thing.

14 Does the snow of Lebanon leave

the crags of Sirion?

Do the mountain waters run dry,

the cold flowing streams?

15 But my people have forgotten me;

they make offerings to false gods;

they made them stumble in their ways,

in the ancient roads,

and to walk into side roads,

not the highway,

16 making their land a horror,

a thing to be hissed at forever.

Everyone who passes by it is horrified

and shakes his head.



Jer. 7:31 And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind.



Jer. 19:5 and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind—



Jer. 32:35 They built the high places of Baal in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to offer up their sons and daughters to Molech, though I did not command them, nor did it enter into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.



Ezekiel 16:20–21 (ESV) — 20 And you took your sons and your daughters, whom you had borne to me, and these you sacrificed to them to be devoured. Were your whorings so small a matter 21 that you slaughtered my children and delivered them up as an offering by fire to them?



Ezekiel 23:37–39 (ESV) — 37 For they have committed adultery, and blood is on their hands. With their idols they have committed adultery, and they have even offered up to them for food the children whom they had borne to me. 38 Moreover, this they have done to me: they have defiled my sanctuary on the same day and profaned my Sabbaths. 39 For when they had slaughtered their children in sacrifice to their idols, on the same day they came into my sanctuary to profane it. And behold, this is what they did in my house.



2 Chronicles 28:3–5 (ESV) — 3 and he made offerings in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom and burned his sons as an offering, according to the abominations of the nations whom the LORD drove out before the people of Israel. 4 And he sacrificed and made offerings on the high places and on the hills and under every green tree. 5 Therefore the LORD his God gave him into the hand of the king of Syria, who defeated him and took captive a great number of his people and brought them to Damascus. He was also given into the hand of the king of Israel, who struck him with great force.

It is on Gods side, His will didnt get accomplished, that means mans will trumped Gods will, thats a sorry god if you ask me,

Its not the God of scripture Job 23:13

13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.

14 For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.

Dan 4:35

35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

 

[Studyman]

You have not shown it is his will to determine all things

You assume it while ignoring contrary indication

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.

1John 2:16 For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life—is not from the Father but is from the world.

Jer. 32:35 They built the high places of Baal in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to offer up their sons and daughters to Molech, though I did not command them, nor did it enter into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Is. 30:1 “Ah, stubborn children,” declares the LORD,
“who carry out a plan, but not mine,
and who make an alliance, but not of my Spirit,
that they may add sin to sin;

Gal. 5:7 You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion is not from him who calls you.

1Cor. 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

Rom. 11:23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

God is frequently seen as regretful, hurt, greived, disappointed, angered by the actions of mankind. What sense would that make if he was determining their acts



Jer. 3:19 “ ‘I said,

How I would set you among my sons,

and give you a pleasant land,

a heritage most beautiful of all nations.

And I thought you would call me, My Father,

and would not turn from following me.

20 Surely, as a treacherous wife leaves her husband,

so have you been treacherous to me, O house of Israel,

declares the LORD.’”



Is. 48:17 Thus says the LORD,

your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel:

“I am the LORD your God,

who teaches you to profit,

who leads you in the way you should go.

18 Oh that you had paid attention to my commandments!

Then your peace would have been like a river,

and your righteousness like the waves of the sea;

19 your offspring would have been like the sand,

and your descendants like its grains;

their name would never be cut off

or destroyed from before me.”



Is. 65:11 But you who forsake the LORD,

who forget my holy mountain,

who set a table for Fortune

and fill cups of mixed wine for Destiny,

12 I will destine you to the sword,

and all of you shall bow down to the slaughter,

because, when I called, you did not answer;

when I spoke, you did not listen,

but you did what was evil in my eyes

and chose what I did not delight in.”



Luke 7:30 but the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the purpose of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.)



Deut. 5:28 “And the LORD heard your words, when you spoke to me. And the LORD said to me, ‘I have heard the words of this people, which they have spoken to you. They are right in all that they have spoken. 29 Oh that they had such a heart as this always, to fear me and to keep all my commandments, that it might go well with them and with their descendants forever! 30 Go and say to them, “Return to your tents.” 31 But you, stand here by me, and I will tell you the whole commandment and the statutes and the rules that you shall teach them, that they may do them in the land that I am giving them to possess.’ 32 You shall be careful therefore to do as the LORD your God has commanded you. You shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left. 33 You shall walk in all the way that the LORD your God has commanded you, that you may live, and that it may go well with you, and that you may live long in the land that you shall possess.



Jer. 18:7 If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, 8 and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it. 9 And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, 10 and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it. 11 Now, therefore, say to the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem: ‘Thus says the LORD, Behold, I am shaping disaster against you and devising a plan against you. Return, every one from his evil way, and amend your ways and your deeds.’ 12 “But they say, ‘That is in vain! We will follow our own plans, and will every one act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart.’



Jer. 18:13 “Therefore thus says the LORD:

Ask among the nations,

Who has heard the like of this?

The virgin Israel

has done a very horrible thing.

14 Does the snow of Lebanon leave

the crags of Sirion?

Do the mountain waters run dry,

the cold flowing streams?

15 But my people have forgotten me;

they make offerings to false gods;

they made them stumble in their ways,

in the ancient roads,

and to walk into side roads,

not the highway,

16 making their land a horror,

a thing to be hissed at forever.

Everyone who passes by it is horrified

and shakes his head.



Jer. 7:31 And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind.



Jer. 19:5 and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind—



Jer. 32:35 They built the high places of Baal in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to offer up their sons and daughters to Molech, though I did not command them, nor did it enter into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.



Ezekiel 16:20–21 (ESV) — 20 And you took your sons and your daughters, whom you had borne to me, and these you sacrificed to them to be devoured. Were your whorings so small a matter 21 that you slaughtered my children and delivered them up as an offering by fire to them?



Ezekiel 23:37–39 (ESV) — 37 For they have committed adultery, and blood is on their hands. With their idols they have committed adultery, and they have even offered up to them for food the children whom they had borne to me. 38 Moreover, this they have done to me: they have defiled my sanctuary on the same day and profaned my Sabbaths. 39 For when they had slaughtered their children in sacrifice to their idols, on the same day they came into my sanctuary to profane it. And behold, this is what they did in my house.



2 Chronicles 28:3–5 (ESV) — 3 and he made offerings in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom and burned his sons as an offering, according to the abominations of the nations whom the LORD drove out before the people of Israel. 4 And he sacrificed and made offerings on the high places and on the hills and under every green tree. 5 Therefore the LORD his God gave him into the hand of the king of Syria, who defeated him and took captive a great number of his people and brought them to Damascus. He was also given into the hand of the king of Israel, who struck him with great force.

Excellent God Inspired references. Here are a couple more.

Jer. 6: 16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein. 17 Also I set watchmen over you, saying, Hearken to the sound of the trumpet. But they said, We will not hearken.

Matt. 7: 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I (The Jesus of the Bible) profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Rom. 11: 22 Behold therefore "the goodness and severity of God": on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

This is a lot of Scripture, and there are volumes more, to reject and ignore just to promote a popular religious philosophy which exists in the world God placed us in.

Great topic.

 

[Wholeheart]

I used my God -given Free Will to choose Jesus. Thank you Jesus.

Cane had free will as shown by God telling him"

Genesis 4:6-7 tells us: “Then the Lord said to Cain: Why are you angry? Why are you dejected? If you act rightly, you will be accepted; but if not, sin lies in wait at the door: its urge is for you, yet you can rule over it.”

Did you get that He was able to resist sin and rule over it.

 

[TomL]

Excellent God Inspired references. Here are a couple more.

Jer. 6: 16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein. 17 Also I set watchmen over you, saying, Hearken to the sound of the trumpet. But they said, We will not hearken.

Matt. 7: 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I (The Jesus of the Bible) profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Rom. 11: 22 Behold therefore "the goodness and severity of God": on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

This is a lot of Scripture, and there are volumes more, to reject and ignore just to promote a popular religious philosophy which exists in the world God placed us in.

Great topic.

Thank you

 

[Joe]

Force isnt in the equation, man unjustly puts it there, Gods making or causing one to do something, they will do it willingly. Jesus going to the cross to die for the sins of the elect was predetermined by God yet He did it willingly Lk 22:22

And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!

This started out with you responding to my post that one must be willing to be saved, etc. You stated, "They are being caused to believe by Gods Power in the Gospel, it converts them to believing."

The objection is that you are saying God causes them to believe by His power. That is not biblical. You cannot find that mentioned or implied in the bible. What is biblical is for those that believe, the gospel is the power of God unto salvation (ref: Rom 1:16).

You are using the word "caused" as forced because you say one's belief is by God's power.

If I forced you to punch yourself; this would mean I caused you to punch yourself by my power. Likewise, when you say God causes us to be willing by His power; this means we are being forced to do what God wants.

As for Luke 22:22, we all recognize that God predetermined for Jesus to suffer and die at the hands of sinful men. What we do not recognize and strongly reject is that God caused those involved to sin, or God causes by His power for people to believe.

Brother, if you want people to stop calling you out for saying God uses His power to force people to do His will then stop saying it. We are only pointing out to you the implications of what you are saying because God does not make people willing by His power.

They are willing because God conveys His love towards them in the gospel. As the Apostle John stated, "We love him, because he first loved us."

Why didn't John say we love Him because he caused us to by his power? I will tell you why; because that is not the gospel message. The gospel message is, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

People bring that word in because of their hatred of predestination.

You are wrong. Why do I say this? Because I love the word predestination and at the same time reject your belief that God causes people to believe by His power.

I love the word predestination. It is a wonderful word of assurance and guarantee to all those who believe.

We are not predestined to believe, rather believers are predestined to be conformed to the image of God's Son; are predestined to adoption as sons of God; are predestined according to the purpose of God (ref: Rom 8:29.; Eph 1:5,11)...I absolutely 100% love it!

God Bless

 

[Studyman]

Aint that something, And Salvation is according to His Purpose 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Yes, the Holy Calling is not "according to our works", at best our "righteousness" is a filthy rag. But God's Works, that HE Before Ordained from the foundation of the world that men should walk in them, they are Holy, Just and Good. A Holy Calling to be sure that was "In Christ Jesus", and surely a Prize worthy of pressing towards, as Paul also teaches.

But as the Jesus "of the Bible" points out, "Many" who call Him Lord, Lord, simply don't believe Him.

Matt. 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and "ye" would not!

Luke 13: 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, (And Lazarus) and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

You have been shown a Lot of Holy Words, Inspired by the One True God and Father of the Lord's Christ. Are you sure it's God and His Word which is mistaken, and not the religious philosophy of this world you have adopted, that is the issue?

 

[Wholeheart]

This started out with you responding to my post that one must be willing to be saved, etc. You stated, "They are being caused to believe by Gods Power in the Gospel, it converts them to believing."

The objection is that you are saying God causes them to believe by His power. That is not biblical. You cannot find that mentioned or implied in the bible. What is biblical is for those that believe, the gospel is the power of God unto salvation (ref: Rom 1:16).

You are using the word "caused" as forced because you say one's belief is by God's power.

If I forced you to punch yourself; this would mean I caused you to punch yourself by my power. Likewise, when you say God causes us to be willing by His power; this means we are being forced to do what God wants.

As for Luke 22:22, we all recognize that God predetermined for Jesus to suffer and die at the hands of sinful men. What we do not recognize and strongly reject is that God caused those involved to sin, or God causes by His power for people to believe.

Brother, if you want people to stop calling you out for saying God uses His power to force people to do His will then stop saying it. We are only pointing out to you the implications of what you are saying. God does not make people willing by His power.

They are willing because God conveys His love towards them in the gospel. As the Apostle John stated, "We love him, because he first loved us."

Why didn't John say we love Him because he caused us to by his power? I will tell you why. Because that is not the gospel message. The gospel message is, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."


You are wrong. Why do I say this? Because I love the word predestination and at the same time reject your belief that God causes people to believe by His power.

I love the word predestination. It is a wonderful word of assurance and guarantee to all those who believe.

We are not predestined to believe, rather believers are predestined to be conformed to the image of God's Son; are predestined to adoption as sons of God; are predestined according to the purpose of God (ref: Rom 8:29.; Eph 1:5,11)...I absolutely 100% love it!

God Bless

Excellent, Best explanation I've ever heard.

 

[Studyman]

This started out with you responding to my post that one must be willing to be saved, etc. You stated, "They are being caused to believe by Gods Power in the Gospel, it converts them to believing."

The objection is that you are saying God causes them to believe by His power. That is not biblical. You cannot find that mentioned or implied in the bible. What is biblical is for those that believe, the gospel is the power of God unto salvation (ref: Rom 1:16).

You are using the word "caused" as forced because you say one's belief is by God's power.

If I forced you to punch yourself; this would mean I caused you to punch yourself by my power. Likewise, when you say God causes us to be willing by His power; this means we are being forced to do what God wants.

As for Luke 22:22, we all recognize that God predetermined for Jesus to suffer and die at the hands of sinful men. What we do not recognize and strongly reject is that God caused those involved to sin, or God causes by His power for people to believe.

Brother, if you want people to stop calling you out for saying God uses His power to force people to do His will then stop saying it. We are only pointing out to you the implications of what you are saying. God does not make people willing by His power.

Great analogy. And the other side of this same coin, is the implication that God also picks losers, those who are "thrust out of the Kingdom", by the same power. As if salvation is granted based on some secret Holy Lottery. And of course, those who adopt and promote the religion which promotes this popular philosophy, are the lucky winners.

They are willing because God conveys His love towards them in the gospel. As the Apostle John stated, "We love him, because he first loved us."

Why didn't John say we love Him because he caused us to by his power? I will tell you why. Because that is not the gospel message. The gospel message is, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."


You are wrong. Why do I say this? Because I love the word predestination and at the same time reject your belief that God causes people to believe by His power.

I love the word predestination. It is a wonderful word of assurance and guarantee to all those who believe.

We are not predestined to believe, rather believers are predestined to be conformed to the image of God's Son; are predestined to adoption as sons of God; are predestined according to the purpose of God (ref: Rom 8:29.; Eph 1:5,11)...I absolutely 100% love it!

God Bless

And given that this God see's the End from the beginning, the Word is perfect. God already knows the choices men make because in His Realm (Time), they have already made them, just as HE knew what men would do to the Prophets, and to His Son.

God didn't "make" men believe in Him and reward them, just as HE doesn't make men reject HIM and create their own religion, and then punish them. At least not the God of the Bible.


Great post.

 

[brightfame52]

This started out with you responding to my post that one must be willing to be saved, etc. You stated, "They are being caused to believe by Gods Power in the Gospel, it converts them to believing."

The objection is that you are saying God causes them to believe by His power. That is not biblical. You cannot find that mentioned or implied in the bible. What is biblical is for those that believe, the gospel is the power of God unto salvation (ref: Rom 1:16).

You are using the word "caused" as forced because you say one's belief is by God's power.

If I forced you to punch yourself; this would mean I caused you to punch yourself by my power. Likewise, when you say God causes us to be willing by His power; this means we are being forced to do what God wants.

As for Luke 22:22, we all recognize that God predetermined for Jesus to suffer and die at the hands of sinful men. What we do not recognize and strongly reject is that God caused those involved to sin, or God causes by His power for people to believe.

Brother, if you want people to stop calling you out for saying God uses His power to force people to do His will then stop saying it. We are only pointing out to you the implications of what you are saying because God does not make people willing by His power.

They are willing because God conveys His love towards them in the gospel. As the Apostle John stated, "We love him, because he first loved us."

Why didn't John say we love Him because he caused us to by his power? I will tell you why; because that is not the gospel message. The gospel message is, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."


You are wrong. Why do I say this? Because I love the word predestination and at the same time reject your belief that God causes people to believe by His power.

I love the word predestination. It is a wonderful word of assurance and guarantee to all those who believe.

We are not predestined to believe, rather believers are predestined to be conformed to the image of God's Son; are predestined to adoption as sons of God; are predestined according to the purpose of God (ref: Rom 8:29.; Eph 1:5,11)...I absolutely 100% love it!

God Bless

As stated, no force at all, men willingly do the things God predetermined that they do.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, the Holy Calling is not "according to our works", at best our "righteousness" is a filthy rag. But God's Works, that HE Before Ordained from the foundation of the world that men should walk in them, they are Holy, Just and Good. A Holy Calling to be sure that was "In Christ Jesus", and surely a Prize worthy of pressing towards, as Paul also teaches.

But as the Jesus "of the Bible" points out, "Many" who call Him Lord, Lord, simply don't believe Him.

Matt. 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and "ye" would not!

Luke 13: 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, (And Lazarus) and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

You have been shown a Lot of Holy Words, Inspired by the One True God and Father of the Lord's Christ. Are you sure it's God and His Word which is mistaken, and not the religious philosophy of this world you have adopted, that is the issue?

Saved according to His Purpose. If you say mans will can and will thwart Gods Purpose to save them for His Own Glory, its Blasphemous !

When God saves a person Hes working all things according to His Own will and counsel Eph 1:5,11

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Ones Salvation is their Inheritance from God, predestinated before the world began

 

[brightfame52]

I used my God -given Free Will to choose Jesus. Thank you Jesus.

Cane had free will as shown by God telling him"

Genesis 4:6-7 tells us: “Then the Lord said to Cain: Why are you angry? Why are you dejected? If you act rightly, you will be accepted; but if not, sin lies in wait at the door: its urge is for you, yet you can rule over it.”

Did you get that He was able to resist sin and rule over it.

Boasting ! What Jesus did you choose with your freewill ? Is the Jesus who came exclusively to save His Sheep, Gods Elect ? That jesus that love everyone and died for everyone, hate to tell you this, is a false jesus

 

[Joe]

As stated, no force at all, men willingly do the things God predetermined that they do.

Please point out the bible verses in context that validate your statement. The ones you gave me do not contextually support your belief.

And in your perspective does God predetermine everything? Is so what do you do with Jeremiah 19:4-5? If not, where biblically is the difference between things He predetermines to those He does not.

God Bless

 

[Studyman]

Saved according to His Purpose. If you say mans will can and will thwart Gods Purpose to save them for His Own Glory, its Blasphemous !

I am simply posting HIS Words. I do not believe HIS Words are "blasphemous", however, there are "many" who seem to believe they are. According to the Jesus of the Bible, even "many" who "call Him Lord, Lord."

When God saves a person Hes working all things according to His Own will and counsel Eph 1:5,11

5 Having predestinated "us" unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself

God knows the end from the beginning, but you don't. Peter understood this Truth.

2 Pet. 3: 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

Paul did as well.

2 Cor. 5: 9 Wherefore "we" labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

, according to the good pleasure of his will,
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Ones Salvation is their Inheritance from God, predestinated before the world began

I'm sure you mean well and have been persuaded of this religious philosophy you are promoting. I advocate believing "ALL" that is written in the Holy Scriptures, as Paul did.

I know this teaching is considered blasphemous to "Many" who come in Christ's Name, nevertheless, Paul did say;

1 Cor. 10: 11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 12 Wherefore (Because of this undeniable Biblical Truth) let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

But I can't make a person believe what is written, and the Jesus "of the Bible" did say;

Luke 16: 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

 

[civic]

Yes, a disappointed God who wants to save everyone, but most men won't let him.

That’s because God forces no one to love and obey him except in some people’s theology which is misguided